What Mustansir Mir really says about kharruu liladhqaan
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Ahh right, the internet google thing search you accused Wakas of being guilty of? Yeah, we're all guilty of something after all...
I am not translating a book using google translate, I am finding out if a particular phrase is an idiom. If you can't tell the difference between those 2 things then sorry.
Also here are some more references for you
http//idioms.thefreedictionary.com/the+small+hours
http//www.goenglish.com/Idioms/Wee+Hours+Of+The+Night.asp
http//www.englishcafe.com/blog/idioms-and-expressions-second-moment-hour-56980
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http//www.goenglish.com/Idioms/Wee+Hours+Of+The+Night.asp This is how it is actually used in the language.
No, there is no "one word" difference there, it's not even in the same ballpark.
I like the way you slip that in the end though. Classy.
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I hope Mazhar doesn't take this the wrong way, but I have a hard time understanding any of his posts.
Salam Savage,
How are you, all 3046 posts!! since I have only one post on this thread, and that is of course a difficult one, because it was to handle Mustansir who worked on advanced grammer and language issues while forgetting elementaries of Arabic language.
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Salam Mazhar,
Yes, the ones where you talk about grammar. They are excruciatingly difficult to understand and it's not because I don't get the grammar (some might call this defensive, I call it clarification!) but because they are worded very peculiarly. Most of the posts I've read are talking about grammar, the rest I have no idea so I don't know about all 3046.
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Salam Savage,
Grammer is a peculiar subject. Hence it has to be worded very peculiarly otherwise a wrong perception can be obtained.
It is excruciatingly difficult only when there is lack of interest in grasping the original perception contained in second language since one cannot know the message conveyed by a sentence merely by searching meanings of individual words of a sentence of that language in dictionaries, as many people do and compile "scholarly dissertations". Grammer of any language is basically developed for non natives and for putting serious matter in writing.
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Are we seriously comparing (and drawing a conclusion of!) an idiom/pun in English to a Quranic sentence? ??? A bit of a stretch.
Regarding Mazhar's 'grammar'
This sort of anatomizing the quranic language is conjectural at best. I ask you, which came first The quran or the grammarians?
Secondly, Mazhar's post (no offense to him, because i think its a language issue) are often incomprehensible.
Please note I never said to ignore grammar.
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Salam
Thought I?d comment. With the issue of salat obviously there are differing views and it?s natural (I think) that people get emotionally attached to what they believe so they can get offended easily.
Nothing wrong with difference of opinion with justifications, at the end of the day God knows absolute truth.
So Lanes uses other examples, are they the only ones sighted? Gotta link I could check out?
Quran uses idioms, and we know that from the verse 37
In regards to your reference 17107 hypothetically it is a possible clear refers to physical prostration... when you read the verse is that what you visualise? That the knowledge came to them and based on that they believed and they fell down in prostration? Maybe that?s what you visualise.
Something that might not seem significant but probably is 17109 doesn?t mention sujjud. So wouldn?t it be wrong to associate sujjud to ?youkharuna llathakini? in all references? Considering one interpretation of sujud is known as physical prostration on the ground etc, doesn?t this challenge the idea ?
BTW is Mir contactable?
Peace
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So, the phrase "wee hours (of the night)" seems to be taken by many as 'idiom'. OK. FYI, this is the way it's understood literally
BIG hours
in 12-hour format 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, (12)
in 24-hour format 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23Small/wee hours (0), 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
here's a haiku to help memorize
Nami's a wee wee
She falls in the wee hours
One, two, three, four, five!Feel free to take it as 'idiomatic' still, though.
regrammar
Actually i treat grammar the same way i treat the lexicon (consistency throughout AQ) . My non-commenting on the grammar discussion is purely subjective. -
Regarding Mazhar's 'grammar'
This sort of anatomizing the quranic language is conjectural at best. I ask you, which came first The quran or the grammarians?
Secondly, Mazhar's post (no offense to him, because i think its a language issue) are often incomprehensible.
Please note I never said to ignore grammar. Jack
Salam Jack,
It can be seen and examined from another angle too. In appearance, i.e. coming to human knowledge, is the Qur'aan first or the Arabic language? If Arabic language is pre-dated then its grammer was also there though it had not been scripted. Every language has built in rules, and their organized description is what the grammer is all about.
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peace Mazhar,
Of course some grammar is in place pre-Quran, but post-Quran it was more fixed/rigid and written about. That is why grammar has a role to play, but other things, such as logic, cross-reference etc also have roles. They must be used together, intelligently.
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peace Mazhar,
Of course some grammar is in place pre-Quran, but post-Quran it was more fixed/rigid and written about. That is why grammar has a role to play, but other things, such as logic, cross-reference etc also have roles. They must be used together, intelligently.
Peace Wakas,
Grammar-syntax and morphology is the translation of above statement. Logic is broadly the relationship between specific events, situations, or objects, and the inevitable consequences of their interaction. And this can be achieved only by knowing the relationship of words describing events, situations and objects in any book. Principles are principles, if they do not permit wild wandering and to draw conclusions of choice, it does not mean that they are rigid.
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Salaam Sarah,
So Lanes uses other examples, are they the only ones sighted? Gotta link I could check out?
He mentions the Quranic verse and a few of the examples here under the entry kh-r-r.
He mentions the rest here, in the first column, about half way down.
These are pdf scans from Project Quran List. First one is linked to in the entry for kh-r-r, and the other at dhal-qaf-nun
In regards to your reference 17107 hypothetically it is a possible clear refers to physical prostration... when you read the verse is that what you visualise? That the knowledge came to them and based on that they believed and they fell down in prostration? Maybe that?s what you visualise.
The way I visualize it is that they fall to the ground in humility and overwhelming emotion, and then perform a prostration.
Something that might not seem significant but probably is 17109 doesn?t mention sujjud. So wouldn?t it be wrong to associate sujjud to ?youkharuna llathakini? in all references? Considering one interpretation of sujud is known as physical prostration on the ground etc, doesn?t this challenge the idea ?
I read this verse just as I read the above one, that yukhirruuna liladhqaani simply means to fall down to the ground in submission/defeat.
This verse differs from the other in that once they are on the ground they don't prostrate, they begin to cry.
When I asked a sheikh about this verse last summer, I was told that these verses should be read with 2573, where it is said "when they are reminded of the verses/signs of their lord, they do not fall deaf and blind thereat."
He was saying that the true believers are overwhelmed with emotion and khushoo3, whilst the disbelievers perform their tasks without emotion, simply because they have to.
These verses relate to 1074-5 ?Woe to those who pray but hearts are not in the prayers."
It is simply about khushoo3. Check Kh-Shiin-Ayn here at Project Quran List.
BTW is Mir contactable?
I would imagine that as a professor he would be very contactable. Perhaps this is what we need to do.
The reason I started this thread was to expose the ungenuine statement by wakas in his article
Professor Mustansir Mir is very clear in "Verbal Idioms of The Quran", in which he cites "fall to the chin" as a verbal idiom meaning extreme humility, for the chin represents pride...
Grammatically, the accusative word "sujjudan" in "yakhorruun lil'adhqaan sujjudan" names the action or manner of the verb preceding. In other words, it describes how "they fell to their chins". So if "they fell to their chins" is an idiom then "sujjadan" is also idiomatic and is not body-physical.This is ungenuine because that is not what Mustansir Mir is saying. He is saying, as do all traditional Sunni or Shia scholars, that it means extreme humility - but Wakas is neglecting to add that Mustansir Mir is "very clear" about the fact that it is "body-physical"
"to fall down on one's face in humility.
Kharra 1i dh-dhaqani implies extreme humility"
So Mir is saying EXACTLY what all traditional Muslim clerics say
Which is why I cannot understand why Wakas uses this as evidence for his argument that sujood is not physical in this verse, since Mustansir Mir most certainly does not say that, and even your neighborhood mullah would say that it is an idiom. There is no one in Islamic theology that I am aware of who states that that verse is NOT an idiom, just as there is no one who states that it is NOT body-physical.
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peace Sarah,
Please bear in mind ths does not read properly. He quotes my article and joins two separate paragraphs together (which are themselves separated by a line of space) then makes parts bold and implies I am saying this is what Mustansir Mir (MM) says. Deceptive.
IF I was trying to mislead anyone about what MM says, I would not have provided a link to the book for people to read themselves. Anyone can read what I said about this over a year ago here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg206637#msg206637 and compare with what MM actually says http//img98.imageshack.us/img98/2650/97400887.jpg
It is not my fault ths does not understand what an idiom is "an expression whose meanings cannot be inferred from the meanings of the words that make it up"
According to ths they fall to their chins prostrating, means they fall upon their faces, prostrating
Woah, what word play, what an idiom! ;D
According to wakas they fall to their chins SJD, means they humble themselves utterly, acknowledging (or any other meanings of SJD, i.e. honouring/paying respect/submitting)
Lets look at the facts
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His book is called verbal idioms of The Quran, in which he lists idioms. He lists this idiom under Kha, implying the kh-r-r part is the idiom or at least part of the idiomatic expression. This is how his book works.
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Both Lane and MM cite examples of objects with no chin or face, that use the idiom, but in these, ths seemingly implies its not about a chin or face, its about humility BUT when it comes to humans it is about a physical fall to the chin/face. How convenient, but unfortunately for him, that is not how idioms work.
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MM when first listing the idiomatic phrase often gives the literal translation, and then discusses/explains it either in brackets and/or underneath. Unfortunately, in this case, MM is not 100% clear, however, by using logic when reading his explanation, we can clearly see he states in these verses it means to humble oneself before God.
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MM lists another idiom with kh-r-r in his book, in fact, the one before the one we are discussing, and explains it as not a physical fall.
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The Quran and Classical Arabic dictionaries state the meaning of th-q-n as "chin", not "face".
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If we take it as a physical fall, then whenever The Quran is relayed to us, we should physically fall (or at least some of the time), according to ths. No mullah/sheikh, who ths seems to like referring to, says we should do this. Nor from the people of the book.
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Traditional exegetes show variance in 'fall SJD' verses, as I point out in my article http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html
And lastly, note how in this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601641 ths cited this verse as the strongest proof of SJD=prostrate, yet this verse clearly contains problems! Readers of the forum can easily see how weak the evidence of SJD=prostration is.
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Please bear in mind ths does not read properly. He quotes my article...
According to ths they fall to their chins prostrating, means they fall upon their faces, prostrating
Woah, what word play, what an idiom!
It seems I'm not the only one who can't read properly, because I've never said anything about the face - this is your own hallucination.
This is what I said
The way I visualize it is that they fall to the ground in humility and overwhelming emotion, and then perform a prostration.
You are the one translating "chin" for "face"
- Both Lane and MM cite examples of objects with no chin or face, that use the idiom, but in these, ths seemingly implies its not about a chin or face, its about humility BUT when it comes to humans it is about a physical fall to the chin/face. How convenient, but unfortunately for him, that is not how idioms work
Again, I never said anything about the face. You are reading this sentence and trying to translate every word in the sentence into something else. So it's no wonder you keep coming up with chin=face.
According to wakas they fall to their chins SJD, means they humble themselves utterly
Now,
- Tell us then Wakas, how does a tree "humble itself" during a storm, as per Lane's example.
- How has the stone humbled itself, as per Lane's example.
This is a direct quote from Lane
-- A wind blew violently, so that the trees fell, or bent themselves down to the ground
-- The wind blew,and overturned, or threw down, or bent down, the trees
(of a stone) -- The torrent overturned itSo it seems you cannot read properly, because Lane says the tree FALLS DOWN, the stone IS OVERTURNED, and Mir says the verse means the people FALL DOWN.
I do not have a problem with you peddling your half-baked views around the forum - I have a problem with you claiming that an Islamic scholar supports your view - which I've proven he ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT.
Now please tell me how my opinion differs from Mustansir Mir and Lane.
Unfortunately, in this case, MM is not 100% clear, however, by using logic when reading...
Oh?! He's not clear??
Because in your article you say he was "very clear" - hahahahah classy.
Secondly, this is direct quote from his book
"to fall down on one's face in humility."
That is "very clear", as you stated - only with the opposite meaning to what you've been peddling around on this forum.
EDIT
yet this verse clearly contains problems!No, Wakas, there is not a single academic nor Arabic scholar in this world who believes that sujood does not mean physical prostration, nor a single scholar who supports your view that this verse has no physical falling in it.
Therefore the entire academic community disagrees with your view - there is no problem with this verse - you are the only one with a problem.
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It seems I'm not the only one who can't read properly, because I've never said anything about the face - this is your own hallucination.
From http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599857.msg243797#msg243797
The argument goes that it is a poetic device where the part (chin) describes the whole (face)
Who is hallucinating now ths?
For those interested, see Brother Ayman's analysis of his post above, where he critiques it.
Further, you seem to promote what MM says is literal, and he mentions "upon the face", so do you agree with this or not? Yes or No.
Now,
- Tell us then Wakas, how does a tree "humble itself" during a storm, as per Lane's example.
- How has the stone humbled itself, as per Lane's example.
This is a direct quote from Lane
-- A wind blew violently, so that the trees fell, or bent themselves down to the ground
-- The wind blew,and overturned, or threw down, or bent down, the trees
(of a stone) -- The torrent overturned itSo it seems you cannot read properly, because Lane says the tree FALLS DOWN, the stone IS OVERTURNED
It is unfortunate I have to teach you the basics of language, but..... in none of these examples it is about being humbled themselves, in these examples it mentions what was the cause, i.e. the wind, and torrent, thus would be translated as
a wind blew violently, so that the trees fell to the chin -----------> meaning a wind blew violently, so that the trees became/were utterly humbled
the torrent overturned it (the stone) to the chin --------------> meaning the torrent utterly humbled it (the stone)
etc.It's all very simple ths.
Oh?! He's not clear??
Because in your article you say he was "very clear" - hahahahah classy.
Do you understand the difference between "very clear" and "100% clear"? Perhaps I can phrase it in a way you might understand
- ths misreads very much of the time
- ths misreads 100% of the time
See the difference?
Therefore the entire academic community disagrees with your view
Apart from MM of course.
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Interestingly you never commented on my points 1, 4, 5, 6, 7.
Do you have no answer?##########
But let's put this all aside, why dont you tell us what your view actually is
- what does the phrase in 17107/109 literally mean
- what is its idiomatic meaning
- what part of it is idiomatic
Quite simple questions..... ;D
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Again misquoting me and not reading properly Wakas
That wasn't my argument - that was an argument from a sunni website that I'd found
That's why I wrote "The argument goes"
Why would I write that if I was making the argument??
Again you misquote someone, just like you did with Mir. You really need to learn to read Wakas
Who is hallucinating now ths?
You still are.
It is unfortunate I have to teach you the basics of language, but..... in none of these examples it is about being humbled themselves, in these examples it mentions what was the cause, i.e. the wind, and torrent, thus would be translated as
a wind blew violently, so that the trees fell to the chin -----------> meaning a wind blew violently, so that the trees became/were utterly humbled
the torrent overturned it (the stone) to the chin --------------> meaning the torrent utterly humbled it (the stone)
etc.It's all very simple ths.
Not only do you speak with the attitude of a 7 year old - but again you misunderstand. I know very well what you think the translation is here, but you fail to understand my point
How is the tree humbled?
How is the stone humbled?
If it is so simple - then describe how a stone gets humbled by a torrent
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Ahh, so you quoted an argument you did not agree with. Unusual, but it seems bro Ayman and I misunderstood then. Perhaps if you had been 100% clear, it would have been better.
It seems you like me answering your questions, but run away from mine.
If it is so simple - then describe how a stone gets humbled by a torrent
Definitions of torrent on the Web
downpour a heavy rain
a violently fast stream of water (or other liquid); "the houses were swept away in the torrent"
flood an overwhelming number or amount; "a flood of requests"; "a torrent of abuse"Easy. The stone could be swept away, dislodged from a place, completely submerged, swept away and broken etc.
Now please answer my questions, if you can.
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a violently fast stream of water (or other liquid); "the houses were swept away in the torrent"
flood an overwhelming number or amount; "a flood of requests"; "a torrent of abuse"Easy. The stone could be swept away, dislodged from a place, completely submerged, swept away and broken etc.
Yes thank you - physical movements are implied in each case. Now we can finally agree what Lane meant in his examples, and what Mir meant in his example of Imru 'l-Qays' poetry. There should be no more confusion on the matter.
