Proof Qur'an-alone is Error
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Peace all
Peace brother layth
If the statement "obey God and obey the messenger " are one in the same, what is the wisdom behind joining them using a conjunction 'and'?480 is valid based on the fact that the merciful lord Has delagated authourity of full jurisdiction to the prophet and furthermore the prophet judge by the law of the most high.
Peace
ZUBAIRUS
I found it necessary making this correction after reading the post of Khalil though not addressed to me.
THE MERCIFUL LORD HAD DELEGATED AUTHOURITY OF FULL JURISDICTION TO THE PROPHET AND FURTHERMORE THE PROPHET JUDGED BY THE LAW OF THE MOST HIGH.
However my question to brother layth still remain a question .
ZUBAIRUS
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God authority
Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise. (Quran 2130)
He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Apostle from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error, (623)
- a half dozen verses that associate the book and the wisdom.
How does that equal following hadith fabricators. How are you getting what the prophet taught from bukhari when clearly you admit you don't get it from the Quran. How do you know hadith is complete? Who explains the hadiths? .... Oh that would be those preimum rate telephone numbers Islamic tv channels.
If the Quran is not enough for you then nothing will be. You might as well put a sticker on you forehead saying, I have no guidance please take advantage of me.
Let me try an analogy on you.
Imagine your father gave you a recipe with instructions written down on how to make the perfect cake and said, "this is the complete thing and you need nothing else. I know the past and the future. Follow this and you will get a perfect cake every time".
Centuries later you find your great great grand childern following a completely different recipe, giving the reason that Mr X saw your father making the cake this way and Mr Y saw your father making the cake that way.
Mr X and Y are scholars so they must be right.How would your father feel?
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How does that equal following hadith fabricators. How are you getting what the prophet taught from bukhari when clearly you admit you don't get it from the Quran. How do you know hadith is complete? Who explains the hadiths? .... Oh that would be those preimum rate telephone numbers Islamic tv channels.
If the Quran is not enough for you then nothing will be. You might as well put a sticker on you forehead saying, I have no guidance please take advantage of me.
well you dont seem like you expect a real answer so i skip.
Let me try an analogy on you.
Imagine your father gave you a recipe with instructions written down on how to make the perfect cake and said, "this is the complete thing and you need nothing else. I know the past and the future. Follow this and you will get a perfect cake every time".
Centuries later you find your great great grand childern following a completely different recipe, giving the reason that Mr X saw your father making the cake this way and Mr Y saw your father making the cake that way.
Mr X and Y are scholars so they must be right.How would your father feel?
hungry
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I thought I was recognizing the all-too-familiar pattern in your posts, but was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and try to have a serious exchange of thoughts with you. But sadly it is very obvious that you are not willing to answer questions and engage in an honest, respectful discussion. All you are doing is mocking, resorting to childish game playing and answering questions with new questions which, quite frankly, is very rude.
this is not true i answered all the questions adressed to me.
None of this is new, there are countless people like you out there, they are only interested in establishing their own sense of superiority. I will never understand why your likes keep coming here and repeating the same old same old.
"people like me" ?
Trying to get through to you or get you to actually provide sound arguments is a waste of time.
so dont waste your time.
how can i take "people like you" seriously? you have no knowledge on the subject, who cares if you agree or not with such or such scholar ? you're comparing an elephant to a bug. come back in 20 years.
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Badr,
Your tone in this thread has been a bit much. There's really no need for the constant sarcasm and condescending remarks.
Please show a little more discretion. Thank you.
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What reasoning was that, exactly? The point made was that quran and hikmah are so deliberately combined in so many verses that your separating them as two separate things in the said verse is an inconsistency in your own reading. You are dividing that which Allah has joined.
you are twisting what he have said.
So it must mean he received Prophet Muhammad's sunnah?
even if i feel your sarcasm i'll answer seriously ;
muhammad recieved the quran (wich is indeed wise) but also the wisdom to speak and act by the inspiration of god, wich puts his deeds and sayins on the level of jurisprudence when it comes to practice the islam. the collection of these deeds and sayins is called sunna.I don't think I need to try again given that the point was proven and you were unable to refute it. Are salawat and salat two separate things that need to be guarded? Why is there an AND in between them? And if you can answer that question, your inconsistent reading will be exposed. So it's better to dismiss the point altogether, just like you've done already.
because you have to understand "and especially the middle prayer".
Indivisible eh?
yep.
What is 'it'? That was my question, you've simply repeated the verse. If 'it' was the quran and prophetic sunnah, it should say 'them' not 'it'. Bihum could have been used along with the 'min'.
theres no need to name the two if they were the same thing.
So although you were suggesting before that the quran and sunnah are indivisible, they still need to be separated, but then again they are referred to as 'it'. The irregularities are clear to those who actually read the quran with care as a divine book.
you see irragularities, for me is cristal clear.
Thank you. No "quran wa sunnat e rasoolullah"? Where is that verse?
it's the same as the sunna is the acts and sayings of the prophet, this is what you must obey with the quran.
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I would never ask anyone to change to suit me, that is just ridicilous. I am on the path I believe is true, I would never tell anyone my path is the only one.
Salaam Emil
"Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam" (319)
so theres only one path.
I got another thing you might want to take a second to ponder on How come ortodox muslims are the only ones having a problem letting people follow the Quran?
they dont, theres 1,5 billion muslims in the world and 90% of them are ortodox muslims alhamdulillah. and theres more to come insha allah.
how much do you think is the percentage of the "quranists"?
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Salam,
The "obey God and obey the messenger" as an argument to look for external sources outside the Quran and then claim that "God said so" is misrepresentation at best.
For, by simply observing all other verses that deal with the same subject, we find the answer as clear as day That the 2 commands are in-fact 1 in the same!
480 Whoever obeys the messenger has obeyed God; and whoever turns away, We have not sent you as a guardian over them.
you dont have to read between the line, it's not a riddle. the message is "obey God and the messenger".
as for 480, ---> and by not obeying the messenger you are not obeying god.
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you dont have to read between the line, it's not a riddle. the message is "obey God and the messenger".
as for 480, ---> and by not obeying the messenger you are not obeying god.
How can you obey a man that has been dead for 1400 years? The eternal message that was given to the messenger to be given to us is already here, The Qur'aan, remember? The stuff that you want us to follow in place of The Qur'aan is nothing but a bunch of nonsense written down 260 years after the prophet's death, pbuh. The "SUNNAH & HADITH" of the prophet was never AUTHORIZED by GOD. The prophet himself never authorized it either. We inherited The Qur'aan as the sole source of our guidance. See 3531 & 32 for clarification.
31
32Peace,
Khalil -
How can you obey a man that has been dead for 1400 years? The eternal message that was given to the messenger to be given to us is already here, The Qur'aan, remember? The stuff that you want us to follow in place of The Qur'aan is nothing but a bunch of nonsense written down 260 years after the prophet's death, pbuh.
never said in place, in parallel yes, to learn how to pray and how many prayers for example.
The "SUNNAH & HADITH" of the prophet was never AUTHORIZED by GOD.
"Say Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers." (332)
The prophet himself never authorized it either.
?Write , by the One in whose hand is my soul, nothing comes out except the truth." sunan abi dawood, sahih, approved by al albani
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Peace "Badr",
"Say Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers." (332)
JK- Did it ever occur to you as to why GOD is saying "Obey the Apostle/Messenger" here and not "Obey Allah and Muhammad..."? If you think Muhammad was a messenger 24/7 then please check 3337. Muhammad as a man made mistakes. WHATEVER he had to say as a messenger IS DOCUMENTED IN THE QURAN. Ever noticed verses like "They ask you(Muhammad) concerning x,y,z... SAY(to them)..."? Also note that one cannot even obey Allah only except through a messenger so Muslim's sttaing "Obey Allah" means to obey the Quran is false since the Quran didnt come directly via Allah. Hence the verse
480 Whoso obeyeth the messenger hath obeyed Allah, and whoso turneth away We have not sent thee as a warder over them.
Do you see the connection now? Hence this phrase is referring to ONE SOURCE via which we obey both the messenger and hence in effect Allah as well.
Most Muslims also don't get that the Quran is not only GOD speaking verbatim but also that it quotes the stories and acts of and commands to many messengers including Muhammad. GOD Bless! -
?Write , by the One in whose hand is my soul, nothing comes out except the truth." sunan abi dawood, sahih, approved by al albani
The most authoritative books of Hadith, namely, Muslim & Ibn Hanbal, report that the Prophet ordered that no one shall take anything from him EXCEPT QURAN. Click in the link below to see the Arabic text of this Hadith
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/qhi/hadith1.gif
"Abi Saeed AlKhudry may God be pleased with him reported that the messenger of God may God exalt him & grant him peace had said, 'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than Quran shall erase it.'" !!!
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Salaam Emil
"Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam" (319)
so theres only one path.
Exactly, islam. Not sunni, shia, sufi, QA......islam. One sect doesnt have the copyright of islam. You follow your path, the one you think is right. I follow mine. I don't have a problem with your choice, you seem to have a problem with mine.
Let's play truth or dare. I dare you to call me a muslim. I think you are a muslim, come on, just say it....Or you can choose truth. Then you must say what it is about Quran Alone that is bothering you. Are you scared that we will take over? Are you worried about us that we have gone astray? Are you angry because we have found another path than you?
they dont, theres 1,5 billion muslims in the world and 90% of them are ortodox muslims alhamdulillah. and theres more to come insha allah.
how much do you think is the percentage of the "quranists"?
On the contrary, you are the minority. There are 4,5 billion people saying it is ok to be a Quranist, the only ones opposing it are the ortodox muslims. You see this is one reason IMO what makes a lot of people turn against ortodox islam. I am not talking about muslims only but the entire world. You stand in a circle and everyone is looking into it. Nobody lifts their head and looks for the horizon, nobody wants to progress. Nobody wants to look at the world and help those who are in need. How many islamic centres for alcoholics are there? Alcohol is a big problem, why are not the muslims trying to help the world? What about terrorism, how come no muslim armies are being sent to, for example Somalia, to fight those who are killing in the name of Islam? If someone standing in the circle would dare to question the stagnation, then he would be ridiculed and punished. Quran Alone allows you to be part of the world outside the walls of ortodox islam and still follow Sharia prescribed in the Quran. Do you understand what I mean? I think you do because like I said before, you seem to be a very wise person.
I am not saying that Quran Alone is right and you are wrong. I am just saying it is time for ortodox islam to dust off their coats and smell the coffee, you cannot live your lives like the way prophet Muhammed did AND be part of the world community.... it just doesnt work.
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"Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed," when he speaks it's revelation, it is a general sens right here, evry thing said by the prophet is revelation whether it's Quran or a "regular" saying.
The Quran says that you MUST obey him, the only traces you have from him is Hadeeth.
So Quran is NOT complete and fully detailed as it says and you are saying Allah is a liar?
Do you not see ANY traces of the prophet IN Quran at all?
"Say Obey Allah and the Apostle; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers."
is this hadith of Muhammed or Allah? or BOTH?"And obey Allah and the Apostle, that you may be shown mercy."
"And We did not send any apostle but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission;"
"And whoever obeys Allah and the Apostle, these are with those upon whom Allah has bestowed favors from among the prophets and the truthful and the martyrs and the good, and a goodly company are they!"
So if you don't obey the prophet, you don't obey the quran, as simple as that.
the prophet RECITED from the Quran, TAUGHT from Quran, JUDGED by Quran, I'm sure you know the verses. So where exactly does any of this say use something else OTHER than Quran which Allah revealed to His messanger?Well.... it does
"O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Apostle, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end." (459)See how you don't know your subject.
so we are quarelling now, best go refer this to the messenger and let us know what he says about it, as you seem to know your subject so well.
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Salaam Emil
"Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam" (319)
so theres only one path.
they dont, theres 1,5 billion muslims in the world and 90% of them are ortodox muslims alhamdulillah. and theres more to come insha allah.
how much do you think is the percentage of the "quranists"?
So what IS Islam? It is NOT what has been 'formed' by sunni, shia etc, as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Noah etc ALL followed ISLAM. So what do YOU think ISLAM is? Islam cannot be Quran as none of the above MUSLIMS had Quran, so what is ISLAM? How were the above MUSLIMS, according to Allah, if they did not follow Quran OR hadith of Muhammed?? How do YOU follow ISLAM like the above did?
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The most authoritative books of Hadith, namely, Muslim & Ibn Hanbal, report that the Prophet ordered that no one shall take anything from him EXCEPT QURAN. Click in the link below to see the Arabic text of this Hadith
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/qhi/hadith1.gif
"Abi Saeed AlKhudry may God be pleased with him reported that the messenger of God may God exalt him & grant him peace had said, 'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than Quran shall erase it.'" !!!
Read the rest of the hadeeth "...and say hadiths about me" (wa hadhithou 3anni) = oral transmission.
The restriction was in the beginning of the revelation of the Quran because the prophet was afraid people would mix quran and hadith. But later it have been permitted and the hadiths I've posted prove it.
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The restriction was in the beginning of the revelation of the Quran because the prophet was afraid people would mix quran and hadith. But later it have been permitted and the hadiths I've posted prove it.
And how do you explain Caliph Umar systematically collecting and burning Hadith collections after Prophet Muhammad's death?
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Exactly, islam. Not sunni, shia, sufi, QA......islam. One sect doesnt have the copyright of islam. You follow your path, the one you think is right. I follow mine. I don't have a problem with your choice, you seem to have a problem with mine.
I'm not for any sect neither, I don't claim to belong to any sect.
I don't have a problem with your choice neither, I try to understand and give proofs about how I understand Islam myself.
Let's play truth or dare. I dare you to call me a muslim. I think you are a muslim, come on, just say it....Or you can choose truth. Then you must say what it is about Quran Alone that is bothering you. Are you scared that we will take over? Are you worried about us that we have gone astray? Are you angry because we have found another path than you?
I think you are muslim as you submit yourself to the will of Allah. Every person with an atom of Iman in the heart will go to heaven in the end.
I'm not scared that "you" will take over (even I dont consider it like you against me or us, as some of yall do).
Yes, I'm worried about you especially when most say no salat and no pilgrimage and no sawm.
I'm not angry I'm discussin.
On the contrary, you are the minority. There are 4,5 billion people saying it is ok to be a Quranist, the only ones opposing it are the ortodox muslims. You see this is one reason IMO what makes a lot of people turn against ortodox islam. I am not talking about muslims only but the entire world.
Source ?
You stand in a circle and everyone is looking into it. Nobody lifts their head and looks for the horizon, nobody wants to progress. Nobody wants to look at the world and help those who are in need. How many islamic centres for alcoholics are there? Alcohol is a big problem, why are not the muslims trying to help the world? What about terrorism, how come no muslim armies are being sent to, for example Somalia, to fight those who are killing in the name of Islam? If someone standing in the circle would dare to question the stagnation, then he would be ridiculed and punished. Quran Alone allows you to be part of the world outside the walls of ortodox islam and still follow Sharia prescribed in the Quran. Do you understand what I mean? I think you do because like I said before, you seem to be a very wise person.
I do, but here you are judgin human beigns not a belief, I want to build strictly on the belief (with its rites, acts etc...) because people do alot of things in the name of religion and as I said previously Islam aint an antidote to stupidity. theres good or bad in every person whether a muslim or not.
I am not saying that Quran Alone is right and you are wrong. I am just saying it is time for ortodox islam to dust off their coats and smell the coffee, you cannot live your lives like the way prophet Muhammed did AND be part of the world community.... it just doesnt work.
I think you have the wrong idea about "orthodox" muslims.
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So Quran is NOT complete and fully detailed as it says and you are saying Allah is a liar?
Salaam,
please quote where I said Allah is a liar.
Do you not see ANY traces of the prophet IN Quran at all?
I see but theres much more.
is this hadith of Muhammed or Allah? or BOTH?
the prophet RECITED from the Quran, TAUGHT from Quran, JUDGED by Quran, I'm sure you know the verses. So where exactly does any of this say use something else OTHER than Quran which Allah revealed to His messanger?The prophet was a "walking Quran" but you (and every other human beign) are not, so you must see how he judged by the quran and how he taught by the quran.
so we are quarelling now, best go refer this to the messenger and let us know what he says about it, as you seem to know your subject so well.
I wish.
