Proof Qur'an-alone is Error
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And how do you explain Caliph Umar systematically collecting and burning Hadith collections after Prophet Muhammad's death?
Because not any body can collect hadiths and attribute it to the prophet and this is what people started to do in the time of Umar, people who entered islam recently who did not lived with the prophet nor knew him personnaly or saw him like Abi Huraira for example, this one and a few others were trustworthy and the sayings they collected were transmitted untill today.
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I'm not for any sect neither, I don't claim to belong to any sect.
I don't have a problem with your choice neither, I try to understand and give proofs about how I understand Islam myself.
I think you are muslim as you submit yourself to the will of Allah. Every person with an atom of Iman in the heart will go to heaven in the end.
I'm not scared that "you" will take over (even I dont consider it like you against me or us, as some of yall do).
Yes, I'm worried about you especially when most say no salat and no pilgrimage and no sawm.
I'm not angry I'm discussin.Sorry Badr. I jumped to conclusion about you. The typical ortodox muslim who does debate us would never recognise a quranist as a muslim. I thank you for being open and respectful to us. I only wish the ortodox muslims in my community will one day see me as a muslim. Not that it is personally important, but more for the peace within the community.
If you worry about the salat, pilgrimage and sawm then you must ask us what it means to us. You cannot just worry about us because we do not follow the trend of the majority. I think you gathered that you will only be doing brickwall if you try to use verses from the Quran to argue your case. If you truly want to convince us that we are doing it wrong I suggest you use another tactic, because seriously, I would love for you to show us that we are on the wrong path without arguing about how to interprete the Quran.
I do, but here you are judgin human beigns not a belief, I want to build strictly on the belief (with its rites, acts etc...) because people do alot of things in the name of religion and as I said previously Islam aint an antidote to stupidity. theres good or bad in every person whether a muslim or not.
I think you have the wrong idea about "orthodox" muslims.I understand that, but you still have a choice to make. If you are following the beliefs of a group where within you have a smaller group that will kill and murder in the name of your group, then it is your duty to stand up and fight them. Right now there is nothing being done within the islamic society to fight those that taint the name of islam. Probably because there is alot of confusion about how to interprete the interpretation. Remember, the Talibans are following the same hadith as you do. If you follow the Quran you will have no problem to differentiate yourself from those who think killing is justified.
Maybe I do have the wrong idea about ortodox muslims if you impliment my statement with your community. In my community it is however the very right idea. The ortodox muslims are drifting further and further apart from the rest of society, and it is entirely their choice. They have never asked themselves why society does not like them, instead they blame everybody else, media, politics, the police.
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Read the rest of the hadeeth "...and say hadiths about me" (wa hadhithou 3anni) = oral transmission.
The restriction was in the beginning of the revelation of the Quran because the prophet was afraid people would mix quran and hadith. But later it have been permitted and the hadiths I've posted prove it.
Please reconcile with this
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/033.%20Al%20Ahzaab/33.53d.gif
and do not act like those who keep themselves seated for seeking a hadith/story.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/033.%20Al%20Ahzaab/33.53e.gif
It is certain that this conduct has been causing disconcert/annoyance for the Elevated and Chosen One3353
Allah?s command Do not sit for taking ?Hadith? from The Messenger {Urdu}
??Beginning is with the Personal Name of Allah, {Ar Rehman} Who is Most Merciful.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_6/4/slides/43.jpg
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_6/4/slides/44.jpg
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/book_6/4/slides/45.jpg -
Peace "Badr",
It's actually very simple. If there is a "sahih" or authentic hadith collection then that, like Bukhari and Muslim, the most "sahih", should not contain any scientific errors, correct? Well they do. There are hadith from those books which state that while one of a flies' wings has the disease, the other has the cure. Others say that the seasons are caused by hell taking two breaths, one in summer and the other in winter. Or that meat wouldnt decay if it wasnt for the Israelites, Adam being 60 cubits tall, moon having it's own light, etc etc
The hellfire complained to Allah, "One part of me is eating the other part." So, the hellfire was allowed two breaths - one in summer and one in winter. That is how you see the change of seasons (Bukhari, Beginning of Creation 2231).
The Prophet said, "But for the Israelis, meat would not decay and but for Eve, wives would never betray their husbands."(Bukhari 4547,611)
Narrated Abu Huraira The Prophet said, "The sun and the moon will be folded up (both)deprived of their light on the Day of Resurrection."
Sahih Bukhari 454422
GOD Bless! -
Because not any body can collect hadiths and attribute it to the prophet and this is what people started to do in the time of Umar, people who entered islam recently who did not lived with the prophet nor knew him personnaly or saw him like Abi Huraira for example, this one and a few others were trustworthy and the sayings they collected were transmitted untill today.
Are you ignorant, or a liar?
Muhammad Husayn Haykal
? Umar ibn al-Khattab once tried to deal with the problem of committing the Hadith to writing. The companions of the Prophet whom he consulted, encouraged him, but he was not quite sure whether he should proceed. One day, moved by God's inspiration, he made up his mind and announced "I wanted to have the traditions of the Prophet written down, but I fear that the Book of God might be encroached upon. Hence I shall not permit this to happen." He, therefore, changed his mind and instructed the Muslims throughout the provinces "Whoever has a document bearing a prophetic tradition, shall destroy it." The Hadith, therefore, continued to be transmitted orally and was not collected and written down until the period of al-Mamun. ?Dr. Mohammad Hamidullah
? Abu-Dhahabi reports The Caliph Abu-Bakr compiled a work, in which there were 500 traditions of the Prophet, and handed it over to his daughter 'Aishah. The next morning, he took it back from her and destroyed it, saying "I wrote what I understood; it is possible however that there should be certain things in it which did not correspond textually with what the Prophet had uttered."As to Umar, we learn on the authority of Ma'mar ibn Rashid, that during his caliphate, Umar once consulted the companions of the Prophet on the subject of codifying the Hadith. Everybody seconded the idea. Yet Umar continued to hesitate and pray to God for a whole month for guidance and enlightenment. Ultimately, he decided not to undertake the task, and said "Former peoples neglected the Divine Books and concentrated only on the conduct of the prophets; I do not want to set up the possibility of confusion between the Divine Qur?an and the Prophet's Hadith."
Badr, I sincerely hope you are genuine in your quest for the truth.
No great companion in their right mind burns their own and others hadith without good reason.
Tell us Badr, what is that reason?
It is there in your sources for all to see
Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas
When Allah's Apostle was on his death-bed and in the house there were some people among whom was 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, the Prophet said, "Come, let me write for you a statement after which you will not go astray." 'Umar said, "The Prophet is seriously ill and you have the Qur'an; so the Book of Allah is enough for us." The people present in the house differed and quarrelled. Some said "Go near so that the Prophet may write for you a statement after which you will not go astray," while the others said as Umar said. When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah's Apostle said, "Go away!" Narrated 'Ubaidullah Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was very unfortunate that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise."
As everyone can see, right from the start, The Quran was enough, not only for Umar but most in the room with them.
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Thanks to Badr for being steadfast in support of my position. May Allah reward him.
I didn't mean to stir up everybody, I mostly wanted to publicly state my change in opinion, with Allah as my witness, and offer a proof for it that has given me justification for my decision. I don't care what anyone else thinks, nor am I trying to change anyone else on here, except perhaps the one who has doubts about the Qur'an-alone school of thought and may benefit from my example, because I have been there.
Let it be known by the tone and content of the preceding discussions in this thread, and by pure logic, that the Qur'an-alone school is actually more intolerant than the orthodox/traditional school. For example, no sunni or shia ever kept me out of a mosque for rejecting ahadith! However, I find the posters here are very militant and aggressive against anyone who simply wants to derive some additional benefit from the Prophet's life (AS). By pure logic, the Traditional school would never exclude anyone from being a Muslim, as long as he testifies to God-alone. That, my friends is tolerance.
One more direct proof that I didn't see mentioned above
Remember any of God's verses and wisdom which are recited in your homes. God is Gracious, Informed.
I interpret this to mean that something was recited in the house of the Messenger of Allah that was not recited in public, and that it was commanded by Allah (swt) to be remembered. Otherwise, why would Allah call special attention to it, and even address this ayah directly to the wives? In my opinion, this is the hikmah, the wisdom, that was passed down orally, and then later codified at an appropriate time in the history of the ummah.
And also an indirect proof
How on earth do you learn what salat is unless someone shows you? And who showed that person, and who showed that person... Can't you see? Allah taught Prophet Muhammad the prayer, and salat is one of the precious gifts that has been handed down from one generation of Muslims to the next. And this is the unbroken chain of barakah that I was hinting about. This is also called transmission in metaphysics. It is something quite magical that happens from one soul to another, not from the bookshelf to the brain.
If you reject sunna so strongly, then you might as well invent your own style of prostration, because there are no precise instructions in the Qur'an for that. In fact, there is more precision in the Qur'an on how to fast than there is on how to pray. Why is that, my friends? I wanted to believe that Qur'an was all I needed, but I couldn't resolve why the detailed method of salat was intentionally missing from the text? In my personal journey to Islam, I was reading Qur'an for several years and applying its principles, until I wanted to start doing the prayer. To learn how to do that I naturally went to the masjid where somebody could teach me.
Finally, it comes down to humility and ego. Not to accuse anybody, but seriously, what prevents a person from wanting to be closer to the Messenger of Allah, or at least more "in line" behind him, the imam of imams, is usually pride. So if humility is a virtue for a person, they will seek to suppress their own styles of behavior for a higher example and better model. They do this eagerly, because they know ego is the enemy.
You all can take the Book of Allah dry as long as that satisfies you. It doesn't bother me or the ummah, and we welcome your identification as Muslims. But there are so many higher levels in this deen-al-haqq, and if you want to reach them, you will inevitably seek latheena anamta alayhim.
May Allah guide us all and accept our efforts. I have grown through my interactions on this forum. Thanks.
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Salaam,
please quote where I said Allah is a liar.
You said ""Nor does he speak out of desire. It is naught but revelation that is revealed," when he speaks it's revelation, it is a general sens right here, evry thing said by the prophet is revelation whether it's Quran or a "regular" saying."
Allah says Quran is complete and fully detailed and HE will explain it IN it. YOU are saying other things were revealed that are not in Quran and were written down later in hadith, which the prophet said IN those hadith NOT to do. Allah said Quran is the BEST hadith and you need NO other hadith after it, you say we do. So you do not believe Quran is a complete and fully detailed book fully explained BY Allah IN it. therefore you are saying Allah is a liar if you are right.
I see but theres much more.
There are many more stories yes, by many people who cannot and could not have been verified. If you follow something you are told is from the prophet and it's not, the duty is on you to verify it, which you cannot. The ONLY thing Allah gave the prophet to give us is Quran, nothing else and the sunnah of Muhammed it IN Quran. He did not add anything nor take anything away from Quran, nor did he make haram or halal that which Allah did not. Hadith DO.The prophet was a "walking Quran" but you (and every other human beign) are not, so you must see how he judged by the quran and how he taught by the quran.
and you have to go outside Quran for that? If he was a walking Quran then how he judged and taught by it is IN it, not in some other story made up later.
I wish.
But why not? That is what YOU are saying we should do, why can't you do it?
Because he is no longer here, and what we have is Quran so what we must follow is IN Quran because that is what he followed to the letter and was a 'walking Quran' as you have just said, so why do you need to go outside Quran to find how to follow what he followed? Why do you need to follow something else?
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The final version of the ISlam is brought on the Quran, otherwise the quran would be revealed to Adam or Abraham if people were ready for it. Islam was terminated with Muhammad as God says in the Quran "This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion" (53)
That nicely avoided actually answering my questions. I will put them to you again
So what IS Islam?
It is NOT what has been 'formed' by sunni, shia etc, as Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Noah etc ALL followed ISLAM. So what do YOU think ISLAM is?
Islam cannot be Quran as none of the above MUSLIMS had Quran, so what is ISLAM?
How were the above MUSLIMS, according to Allah, if they did not follow Quran OR hadith of Muhammed??
How do YOU follow ISLAM like the above did?Are you saying Abraham was not a complete Muslim as he didn't have the final version of Quran or he wasn't ready for it? Why then does Allah say to follow the religion of Abraham if it wasn't right?
I am not quite sure you can actually define what Islam is, the Islam that Allah says is the religion and the Islam that ALL prophets followed, even those that didn't have Quran.
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Quote from Abdullah_m
How on earth do you learn what salat is unless someone shows you? And who showed that person, and who showed that person... Can't you see? Allah taught Prophet Muhammad the prayer, and salat is one of the precious gifts that has been handed down from one generation of Muslims to the next. And this is the unbroken chain of barakah that I was hinting about. This is also called transmission in metaphysics. It is something quite magical that happens from one soul to another, not from the bookshelf to the brain.
If you're really longing for the truth, just read the link below. It may take some of your time, but at the end you'll be much more knowledgeable regarding The Qur'aan, Hdith and Islam.
http//www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/qhi/qhi.html
Peace,
Khalil -
peace abdullah_m,
If you would like to ponder what was recited in the homes, see
O you who believe, do not enter the prophet's homes except if you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for hadith. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm God's messenger, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God.
Source
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Hadith_in_Quran.htm -
Salaam,
Respectfully.Hadeeth about Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are the hadeeth inside The Qur'an, they're older then the hadeeth by Bukhary and others. Hadeeth about Noah how he lost his son, which is inside The Qur'an, (just like sister Ayisha says) is older then all the hadeeth by Bukhary and others. At least we can verify hadeeth regarding Noah.
Where can I verify hadeeth from Bukhary?
Ponder now.
God bless you.Peace.
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Let it be known by the tone and content of the preceding discussions in this thread, and by pure logic, that the Qur'an-alone school is actually more intolerant than the orthodox/traditional school.
rotfl
I can't recall anyone from ahlul-quran suggesting you should be executed for being a hadithist, yet anyone who rejects authentic hadith according to traditional sunni schools is an apostate and should be killed (another bit of "hikmah" not found in quran).
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Peace "abdullah_m",
I just couldn't leave the following comments of yours without replying
Let it be known by the tone and content of the preceding discussions in this thread, and by pure logic, that the Qur'an-alone school is actually more intolerant than the orthodox/traditional school.
JK- I don't know what kind of definition of tolerance you have BUT NO Quran Alone muslim, let alone on this forum, would EVER harm anyone physically or take away their property rights based on their dissenting views even so much as if someone were to openly idicule the Quran itself, which we revere so much. BUT YES we do use harsh language at times and we feel it is justified. If you think that's worse than beheading someone than I dont know what to say.
For example, no sunni or shia ever kept me out of a mosque for rejecting ahadith!
JK- Don't know what sunni Mosque you were in and in which country but in Pakistan if you reject the Mustanad Sahih ahadith, the one which according to them have many chains of narration, you become a KAAFIR. Likewise if you reject any of the five basic pillars of "islam" or any of the "farz" elements therein, you are also labeled as a Kaafir.
However, I find the posters here are very militant and aggressive against anyone who simply wants to derive some additional benefit from the Prophet's life (AS).
JK- Do you know what millitant means? It involves physical harm or at the very least threats of physical violence. Which Quran Alone Muslim ever threatened you in that way? ALSO don't forget sunnis/shias use a trick known as "taqqiya" meaning if they think someone is unstable or undecided theyll talk all nice and so whilst once your into their society, theres no way back and then you're faced with the real violent elements of shariah.
By pure logic, the Traditional school would never exclude anyone from being a Muslim, as long as he testifies to God-alone. That, my friends is tolerance.
JK- The shariah commandment, which is also found in hadith, to kill apostates is by no means toleranc, by any stretch of the term. And you don't just become an apostate by simply not testifying to God-alone no more. Many of us, including myself, have been threatened with their life by our own family members, in my case sunnis who are even more moderate than the ones i know back from Pakistan. So don't tell us how tolerant they are. GOD Bless!
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In fact, there is more precision in the Qur'an on how to fast than there is on how to pray. Why is that, my friends? I wanted to believe that Qur'an was all I needed, but I couldn't resolve why the detailed method of salat was intentionally missing from the text?
Is it mentioned in detail in some hadith? Please quote that for general public benefit.
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Please reconcile with this
sorry i dont understand this language but i do understand arabic. this have nothing to do with "hadith" as you understood it. this is hadith = conversation/words/speech.
http//www.wordreference.com/aren/%D8%AD%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%AB
this verse is about politeness and civility.
god ask from the muslims to not enter the house of the prophet at any time and without permission, and if they are invited to eat to not stay long after they finish and give him some privacy as he may be embarrassed and fear to tell you to leave.
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Peace "Badr",
It's actually very simple. If there is a "sahih" or authentic hadith collection then that, like Bukhari and Muslim, the most "sahih", should not contain any scientific errors, correct? Well they do. There are hadith from those books which state that while one of a flies' wings has the disease, the other has the cure.
The antibiotic material is extracted by drowning the flies in ethanol, then running the mixture through a filter to obtain the crude extract.
When this was placed in a solution with various bacteria including E.coli, Golden Staph, Candida (a yeast) and a common hospital pathogen, antibiotic action was observed every time.
"We are now trying to identify the specific antibacterial compounds," said Ms Clarke. Ultimately these will be chemically synthesised.
http//www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2002/10/01/689400.htm
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peace abdullah_m,
If you would like to ponder what was recited in the homes, see
O you who believe, do not enter the prophet's homes except if you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for hadith. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm God's messenger, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God.
Source
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Hadith_in_Quran.htmvery wrong interpretation of the verse.
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Peace "Badr",
The antibiotic material is extracted by drowning the flies in ethanol, then running the mixture through a filter to obtain the crude extract.
When this was placed in a solution with various bacteria including E.coli, Golden Staph, Candida (a yeast) and a common hospital pathogen, antibiotic action was observed every time.
"We are now trying to identify the specific antibacterial compounds," said Ms Clarke. Ultimately these will be chemically synthesised.
http//www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2002/10/01/689400.htm
JK- That's not what the hadith says. The hadith explicitly states that we just dump the fly in. Otherwise almost every living thing on this planet has some beneficial anti bacterial stuff in it which needs to be extracted via a certain process, not just dumping the whole thing in. BESIDES THT the hadith also explicitly states that the cure is IN ONE OF IT'S WINGS AND THE DISEASE IN THE OTHER which is not true at all. It's the flies body which contains most of the stuff and no one fly wing has consitently even a significantly more disease stuff than the other, not to mention all of the diease or anti dote being in one wing only. I've posted a detailed rebuttal to such a defense here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16127.msg172894#msg172894
GOD Bless! -
Common sense tells you that if you follow other books besides Qur'an, that The Qur'an isn't enough for you.
Salam all.
Thank you Alen I really had to stop at this point, as the first few post after mine, I found quite touching. Yours in particular Alen brought tears to my eyes, and then it all went pear shaped from there. Truly lovey loves I am done with the arguments. I believe in The Holy Quran, that is the only Hadith, and I love all prophets and follow them by following the Quran. I am now comfortable with praying twice a day Fajr and Esha and sometime in the night praise my Beautiful, Wonderful Creator. I have completely ostricized myself from every Muslim I know and because I live in a small part of Reading I can't see me having much contact with any Muslims in the fore seeable future, Allauhalam. It is a lonely existence for me but I do have my next door neighbour Helen who is of no religion but great with helping me mow the lawns in the summer yay. Oh and of course you guys are here to help me group. For that I am grateful that Allah swt has guided me to this forum so I don't go completely stir crazy. Rana thank you for you kind words you really are so nice to me. I would never leave my Allah, inshAllah.
Peace
Simone sun
