5 salaats/day : what if i was wrong ?
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Peace
I agree with Jonny_k. It's all about intention.
@ Jack. This verse "And if you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess" 6116
And I totally agree with Waqas. I think it's worse to give up on receiving God's guidance and follow the majority/scholars than to pray less.
At the end of the day, it's your choice. No one here is forcing you to pray less.
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Peace
I agree with Jonny_k. It's all about intention.
@ Jack. This verse "And if you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess" 6116
And I totally agree with Waqas. I think it's worse to give up on receiving God's guidance and follow the majority/scholars than to pray less.
At the end of the day, it's your choice. No one here is forcing you to pray less.
"Surely the hypocrites strive to deceive Allah, and He shall requite their deceit to them, and when they stand up to prayer they stand up sluggishly; they do it only to be seen of men and do not remember Allah except a little." 4142
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Peace "Badr",
JK- The Free Minded Quran Alone Muslims including bros Edip, Ayman, Bahman, myself, Layth, Arnold Yasin Mol, etc and sis Samia, SaraY, Ayisha, etc. GOD Bless!
Who's the most informed amongst you ? what are your sources ? your scholars (those who studied your sources in depth) ?
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Peace "Badr",
Who's the most informed amongst you ? what are your sources ? your scholars (those who studied your sources in depth) ?
JK- I can't say who is the most informed or if any one individual is even more informed than another in any absolute sense. Our sources are the oldest available Quranic script and classical Arabic dictionaries and these have been studied by most us though i beleive particularly bros Ayman, Edip, Layth and perhaps sis Samia. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
JK- I can't say who is the most informed or if any one individual is even more informed than another in any absolute sense. Our sources are the oldest available Quranic script and classical Arabic dictionaries and these have been studied by most us though i beleive particularly bros Ayman, Edip, Layth and perhaps sis Samia. GOD Bless!
So you mean the quran-alone whole movement is composed by a dozen people who try to understand quran and decypher its meaning by themselves and amongst themselves according to arabic dictionnaries ?
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Peace "Badr",
So you mean the quran-alone whole movement is composed by a dozen people who try to understand quran and decypher its meaning by themselves and amongst themselves according to arabic dictionnaries ?
JK- Yes pretty much but we try our best to do this independently, eliminating bias, using reason and logic and then post it on the forum or on the main site. However we welcome opinions/understandings by non-Muslims and others as well to further eliminate bias. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
JK- Yes pretty much but we try our best to do this independently, eliminating bias, using reason and logic and then post it on the forum or on the main site. However we welcome opinions/understandings by non-Muslims and others as well to further eliminate bias. GOD Bless!
brickwall
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Peace "Badr",
brickwall
JK- So what should we do? Listen to your "alims/imams" who, besides being full of dogmatic biases, have never brought about any practical advantages to society? All we see coming from the "islamic world" implying shatiah is violence, suffering, the oppression of women, etc, etc. The system has failed badly so if you know another method let us know.
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Peace "Badr",
JK- So what should we do? Listen to your "alims/imams" who, besides being full of dogmatic biases, have never brought about any practical advantages to society? All we see coming from the "islamic world" implying shatiah is violence, suffering, the oppression of women, etc, etc. The system has failed badly so if you know another method let us know.
scholars explain the deen they brought alot of advantages to society by explaining true islam to the masses. They always been there to find solutions but they have no decisional features, they are not rich and can not afford to spend money to help people. But when it comes to the religion, the scholars are the ones to listen to, they did the researches and they can tell you what is to do and what's not. They know what are the hadeeth that you have to take for granted and which is not.
Theres no "islamic world" nowerdays, there's muslims around the world, theres no khalifaat nor a unique word that unite muslims but theres common rules that each muslim follow in order to achieve the elevation of the society in wich we live.
The system has failed because muslims abandoned their religion and followed other ways, the perfect muslim society were in the time of the prophet, that's why we have to learn from it, people were good to themselves and the community were at a certain time very prosperous and very large. We have to take advantage from every information we recieved in order to follow their steps and wish to become as righteous as them. Not by rejecting every thing they did because the so called scientific evidences.
You do have to put at least a little bit of faith in the sincerity of the people who collected the informations in the hadith, after all they are our muslim brothers, they can't be as bad as you think, they also believe in the quran like you do as the message of the Most High, they surely fear god and His wrath so they wouldnt be as liar as you pretend. You put all the people in the same bag and all the hadeeth also. It could be some mistakes, this is human (not protected by the divine intervention but God keeps an eye anyway) and the prophet said " who tries and succed have two rewards and who tries and dont succeed have one reward" doesnt sound like wisdom to you ? The collecters of the hadeeth did all what they did for the community, they were afraid that all the acts of the prophet who are a "walking Quran" and "from great morals" could be missed by the future generations.
He also said 'if your heart is comfortable with one of my hadeeths then it could be from me, anf if dont it could be the farthest thing from me', you have also a brain tha tyou can use.
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Peace "Badr",
scholars explain the deen they brought alot of advantages to society by explaining true islam to the masses. They always been there to find solutions but they have no decisional features, they are not rich and can not afford to spend money to help people. But when it comes to the religion, the scholars are the ones to listen to, they did the researches and they can tell you what is to do and what's not. They know what are the hadeeth that you have to take for granted and which is not.
JK- I and most others here as well as most people ion the world do not see ANY more advantages these scholars brought to the world than they brought disadvantages as I just mentioned. So how can we trust them in anything? Why do we trust scientists? BEACUSE WE SEE AND ALL USE THE appliances they produce on a daily basis and it works. Also in regards to laws why do most people prefer secualr over any religious law in society? Because it WORKS being derived from social sciences. None of this is the case with the "shcolars" you're talking about. No benefit other than the placebo effect which is there in all religions.
Theres no "islamic world" nowerdays, there's muslims around the world, theres no khalifaat nor a unique word that unite muslims but theres common rules that each muslim follow in order to achieve the elevation of the society in wich we live.
JK- Saudi Arabia considers itself Khalifat. Remember "malik" in Arabic is not a "king" in the ordinary sense which hadith Muslims consider haraam. In fact there is a hadith that connects khilafah with "malkiyat". David and Solomon were "maliks" as well as "imams" and "khulafah" by dewfintion. I know the Saudu king has been accused of misninterpretaion but there are hell lot of hadith scholars backing it up and they all claim to do "baya" in favor of him. SO in effect al you can do is comit the "no true Scotsman fallacy" by saying that those are not true Muslims and they say you arn'rt and in the effect nobody then is.
The system has failed because muslims abandoned their religion and followed other ways, the perfect muslim society were in the time of the prophet, that's why we have to learn from it, people were good to themselves and the community were at a certain time very prosperous and very large. We have to take advantage from every information we recieved in order to follow their steps and wish to become as righteous as them. Not by rejecting every thing they did because the so called scientific evidences.
JK- That's what we're trying to do i.e. get back to the original Islam which we think is/was based on the Quran Alone.
You do have to put at least a little bit of faith in the sincerity of the people who collected the informations in the hadith, after all they are our muslim brothers,
JK- No i don't and neither are they my brothers. They are either delusional or deliberately fraudulent.
they can't be as bad as you think, they also believe in the quran like you do as the message of the Most High, they surely fear god and His wrath so they wouldnt be as liar as you pretend.
JK- Just giving lip srvice to beleiving in the Quran means nothing. Besides it alsdo depends on what concept of a Quran they believe in which I see as incompatible with ours. Othe than that Christians and Jews also fear God so that point is mute anyways.
You put all the people in the same bag and all the hadeeth also. It could be some mistakes, this is human (not protected by the divine intervention but God keeps an eye anyway) and the prophet said " who tries and succed have two rewards and who tries and dont succeed have one reward" doesnt sound like wisdom to you ?
JK- So you admit hadith is not divinely protected. CAN YOU name one logical reason why GOD would not protect the supposedly unique method of how to perform salat, found in hadith which He made obligatory? Does this make any sense? Why not reveal a sura as-salat and start like "O Prophet they ask you cocnerning Salat. Tell them 2 rakats in the morning with this many sujood and rukoos etc etc". Wldve been one middle sized sura more.
The collecters of the hadeeth did all what they did for the community, they were afraid that all the acts of the prophet who are a "walking Quran" and "from great morals" could be missed by the future generations.
JK- Why does GOD need to leave this upto the people and not protect these acts in writing as He did with the Quran? HAve you ever even asked yourself this question?
He also said 'if your heart is comfortable with one of my hadeeths then it could be from me, anf if dont it could be the farthest thing from me', you have also a brain tha tyou can use.
JK- So GOD reveals a perfectly preserved book but leaves some obligatory parts upto the FEELINGS of humans which should filter out the supposed true from the false hadith? I ask you "Badr" to please think hard about this. GOD Bless!
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JK- So you admit hadith is not divinely protected. CAN YOU name one logical reason why GOD would not protect the supposedly unique method of how to perform salat, found in hadith which He made obligatory? Does this make any sense? Why not reveal a sura as-salat and start like "O Prophet they ask you cocnerning Salat. Tell them 2 rakats in the morning with this many sujood and rukoos etc etc". Wldve been one middle sized sura more.
JK- Why does GOD need to leave this upto the people and not protect these acts in writing as He did with the Quran? HAve you ever even asked yourself this question?
JK- So GOD reveals a perfectly preserved book but leaves some obligatory parts upto the FEELINGS of humans which should filter out the supposed true from the false hadith? I ask you "Badr" to please think hard about this. GOD Bless!
Because there wouldnt be no test anymore and every body will go to janna and to the highest grades of the janna it would be so obvious that your faith wouldnt be tested. This is the Hikma of god.
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Peace "Badr",
Because there wouldnt be no test anymore and every body will go to janna and to the highest grades of the janna it would be so obvious that your faith wouldnt be tested. This is the Hikma of god.
JK- But then there was no need to reveal the Quran which is perfectly preserved. GOD coudlve just sent the Prophet and left the "pious" to collect his hadith from which we would derive our enire lifestyle from. This is why this makes no sense whatsoever. It is unreasobale, to say the least, for GOD to reveal a perfectly presvered book making things obligatory within it but then leave the obligatory details of the same in a source which is not 100% preserved or even not as preserved as the former. BESIDES if this were really the case there should at the very least have been a very clear statement in the Quran saying something like "O you beleive learn the details of salat and zakat from the Prophet and write them down". But we do not even find any such statements. BUT LETS ASSUME for a minute the Quran did contain such a statement. YET we would require accurate science backed by archaelogy, used to actually differentiate the true statements of history from the false in all other cases, to these hadith as well in order to find out whether the whole stuff or much of it isnt just made up. As you can see this argument fails in all ways. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
JK- But then there was no need to reveal the Quran which is perfectly preserved. GOD coudlve just sent the Prophet and left the "pious" to collect his hadith from which we would derive our enire lifestyle from. This is why this makes no sense whatsoever. It is unreasobale, to say the least, for GOD to reveal a perfectly presvered book making things obligatory within it but then leave the obligatory details of the same in a source which is not 100% preserved or even not as preserved as the former. BESIDES if this were really the case there should at the very least have been a very clear statement in the Quran saying something like "O you beleive learn the details of salat and zakat from the Prophet and write them down". But we do not even find any such statements.
The reality of life and of time make it more or less preserved, this is the reality of 2010. It was not the case for example in 1000. The more we advance in time and the bigger the test is. Prophet Muhammed says about us (those of 2010) "his beloved ones", we'll also be rewarded 50 times more than those who witnessed the revelation according to hadeeths.
BUT LETS ASSUME for a minute the Quran did contain such a statement. YET we would require accurate science backed by archaelogy, used to actually differentiate the true statements of history from the false in all other cases, to these hadith as well in order to find out whether the whole stuff or much of it isnt just made up. As you can see this argument fails in all ways. GOD Bless!
Archeology = science = obvious
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Peace "Badr",
The reality of life and of time make it more or less preserved, this is the reality of 2010. It was not the case for example in 1000. The more we advance in time and the bigger the test is. Prophet Muhammed says about us (those of 2010) "his beloved ones", we'll also be rewarded 50 times more than those who witnessed the revelation according to hadeeths.
JK- Again you're stating that Muhammad uttered any of this as fact when you have zero evidence. If you ever brought such evidence to any modern court they'd laugh at such nonsense. It amazes me how anyone can, whilst he doesnt otherwise when planning his/her daily life, accept such without any or much doubt.
Archeology = science = obvious
JK- Pretty much unless you're in denial. Infact reconstructions using the scientific method are often much more reliable THAN DIRECT EYEWITNESSES? Did u know that? Experiments have been conducted to show that direct eye witnesses can even be very unreliable and miss or misinterpret crucial details whilst DNA analysis and other scientifically accepted forensics give a much clearer picture of what actually happened. See for example WITHOUT looking at the description first
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
GOD Bless!
