Prophet Muhammad's prayer (how to make salaat)
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You're defending my cause right here, zakaat and salaat are coupled because they are 2 of the most important FIVE pillars of islam. Both are trying to achieve the growth and the elevation of the community while the Shahada is a personal and asine qua non condition, while Hajj is for those who can afford it, and Sawm has a personnal benefit and reward.
That still doesn't explain why Allah says these 2 together and REGULAR and you say it's not regular and sadaqa is. Allah didn't give these '5 pillars' of Islam.
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Peace "Badr",
JK- Yes and calling it scientific is actually a mockery on real science. Science indludes the "scientfic method" which relies basically on INDEPENDENT and double blind testing. Sceintists don't sit together to reach conclusions but they get to the same conslusions INDEPENDENT of each other. That's how we can be sure it's true. The term here "Alum ul Hadith" should be translated as the "knowledge of hadith", Period. That'd be more accurate. Just because people have studied something doesn't mean they know it's actually true or even the most efficient way of how it works. Consider astrology for exmaple. People have studied it for years. They too could term it "the science of astrology" but it would be ridiculous. And real science has shown that it doesn't make sense nor does it work.
NOW in gaining "knwoeldge of hadith" there is absolutely no archaelogy backing any of it up either. The best tells we have is that the hadith were compiled more than 250 years after the Prophet Muhammad and even for that there is no archaeologial backing. Coudlve been made up 500 years ago for that matter. Next when it comes to the content of he hadith we've seen that it is full of inaccurcies just like the Bible and even the interpretations of most hadith rely heavily on sectraian biases people already have. There is no reserach there either where people INDEPENDETLY come to same conclusions on what the text means. GOD Bless!If you take it from that point of view Quran is also a mockery on real science (god forbid) as you can not prove jinn, you can not prove heaven and hell and you can not prove angels.
As for the inaccurancies, that's why theres the classification. You can't ignore it all just because theres doubt in some of it.
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I recommend http//www.astudyofquran.org/web/index.php?id=60,0,0,1,0,0
Parts 11.2i onwards.
Proving beyond doubt in order to get a coherent method of Traditional Muslim prayer, one must pick and choose. FACT.
Wakas
Who is the author? It is really good stuff. What is his biography?
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That still doesn't explain why Allah says these 2 together and REGULAR and you say it's not regular and sadaqa is. Allah didn't give these '5 pillars' of Islam.
When god says keep up zakaat, he did not said daily, monthly, yearly ? it is as important to make as salaat that's why it is mentionned so often. You can consclude that theres these 5 pillars by yourself as you consluded all the rest.
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If you take it from that point of view Quran is also a mockery on real science (god forbid) as you can not prove jinn, you can not prove heaven and hell and you can not prove angels.
As for the inaccurancies, that's why theres the classification. You can't ignore it all just because theres doubt in some of it.
No one has claimed that there was some great science in verifying and compiling Quran as you did with hadith, so not the same at all.
there are inaccuracies and contradictions in sahih hadith, those that are classified as sahih. Is there a sub-classification in the Sahih class we don't know about?
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Peace "Badr",
If you take it from that point of view Quran is also a mockery on real science (god forbid) as you can not prove jinn, you can not prove heaven and hell and you can not prove angels.
JK- The terms you translate as such are Samaa, Jaheem and Malaaikah. These can have other menaings as well like Malaaikah have been suggested to be certain forces of nature. HOWEVER just because we can't show certain things as true or quantify them as yet doesnt necessarily mean they are untrue. However if the Quran made a claim contradictory to science then it would be problematic.
As for the inaccurancies, that's why theres the classification. You can't ignore it all just because theres doubt in some of it.
JK- I'm talking about hadith classified as Sahih likke the Kutubi Sith As-Sahih(the six authentic books) of which Bukhari and Muslim are the most authentic. Those at least shouldnt contain inaccuracies but THESE are the ones actually which contain all the inaccuracies I ever talk about. The rest of the hadith i don't even focus on. GOD Bless!
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When god says keep up zakaat, he did not said daily, monthly, yearly ? it is as important to make as salaat that's why it is mentionned so often.
he said to establish regular salat and regular zakat, so that means these are a regular thing. Are you saying it is NOT important to pay zakat as it is to make salat? Then why are all those verse, and more, saying regular prayer and regular charity?You can consclude that theres these 5 pillars by yourself as you consluded all the rest.
So again you cannot really back up your claim. -
Peace "Badr",
JK- The terms you translate as such are Samaa, Jaheem and Malaaikah. These can have other menaings as well like Malaaikah have been suggested to be certain forces of nature. HOWEVER just because we can't show certain things as true or quantify them as yet doesnt necessarily mean they are untrue. However if the Quran made a claim contradictory to science then it would be problematic.
ust because we can't show certain hadeeth as true or quantify them as yet doesnt necessarily mean they are untrue.
JK- I'm talking about hadith classified as Sahih likke the Kutubi Sith As-Sahih(the six authentic books) of which Bukhari and Muslim are the most authentic. Those at least shouldnt contain inaccuracies but THESE are the ones actually which contain all the inaccuracies I ever talk about. The rest of the hadith i don't even focus on. GOD Bless!
There's no inaccurancies when it comes to 5 salaats .
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ust because we can't show certain hadeeth as true or quantify them as yet doesnt necessarily mean they are untrue.
JK- I'm talking about hadith classified as Sahih likke the Kutubi Sith As-Sahih(the six authentic books) of which Bukhari and Muslim are the most authentic. Those at least shouldnt contain inaccuracies but THESE are the ones actually which contain all the inaccuracies I ever talk about. The rest of the hadith i don't even focus on. GOD Bless!
There's no inaccurancies when it comes to 5 salaats .
;D but there are in everything else so the rest must be true.
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he said to establish regular salat and regular zakat, so that means these are a regular thing. Are you saying it is NOT important to pay zakat as it is to make salat? Then why are all those verse, and more, saying regular prayer and regular charity?
hahahahahaha ;D this is the english translation my dear. Where in arabic it says regular ?
So again you cannot really back up your claim.
My claim is that there's 5 pillars that one must make in order to roger the orders of god.
Now, according to quran aloners what must one make ? can he not perform zakaat ? can he not make hajj ? can he not make salaat ? etc...
There must be things to do that according to you that characterize the true muslim.
If one must make these 5 pillars then they are the 5 pillars of islam, if one can elude them so how much pillars you have ?
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Peace "Badr",
Just because we can't show certain hadeeth as true or quantify them as yet doesnt necessarily mean they are untrue.
JK- But a you can see I showed you that the verys hadith which do talk about nature make false claims about it like the seasons being controlled by hell taking two breaths one in summer and one in winter, plus adam having been 60 cubits tall plus others which we know via sciecne are false. I also have made a list of hadith which contradict the Quran. See http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596769.0
There's no inaccurancies when it comes to 5 salaats .
JK- When the hadith is wrong on the very basics of how nature operates how can we trust the same on issues of spiritual matters like salat and zakaat which ought to be much more sophisticated? This is like saying "Muhammad as described per hadith didnt know how the seasons formed but he knew how to penetrate the dimensions of spacetime to obtain the information of how to pray". Doesnt make any sense. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
JK- But a you can see I showed you that the verys hadith which do talk about nature make false claims about it like the seasons being controlled by hell taking two breaths one in summer and one in winter, plus adam having been 60 cubits tall plus others which we know via sciecne are false. I also have made a list of hadith which contradict the Quran. See http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596769.0
I don't know this hadeeth but I'll check it but the point is theres nothing about this hadeeth in the Quran but god says that prayers are obligatory and Muhammad explained them when where why etc....
Also theres alot of Hadeeths that make sens and are true like the fly one even if you claim the opposite but you have to confess in your true self that it's remarkable.JK- When the hadith is wrong on the very basics of how nature operates how can we trust the same on issues of spiritual matters like salat and zakaat which ought to be much more sophisticated? This is like saying "Muhammad as described per hadith didnt know how the seasons formed but he knew how to penetrate the dimensions of spacetime to obtain the information of how to pray". Doesnt make any sense. GOD Bless!
like I said before you can't condemn a whole basket of fruits because of a rotten apple.
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Peace "Badr",
I don't know this hadeeth but I'll check it but the point is theres nothing about this hadeeth in the Quran but god says that prayers are obligatory and Muhammad explained them when where why etc....
JK- Nowehere does the Quran say that Muhammad explained to us the prayer. You might as well say Muhammad explained to us what every word in the Quran means and what the meanings of those terms further mean and so on ad infinitum. The Quran states do salat and zakat. We're free to understand them as we think makes reasonable sense and then perform them in that manner within the limits laid out in the Quran. If we perform salat in a manner which doesnt contradict the Quran anywhere, no matter how we perofm it, it's FINE. Is that so diofficult to understand?
Also theres alot of Hadeeths that make sens and are true like the fly one even if you claim the opposite but you have to confess in your true self that it's remarkable.
JK- No i don't have to confess anything except if it were true that one wing actually exlusively carried the diseases and the other the cure for the same.
like I said before you can't condemn a whole basket of fruits because of a rotten apple.
JK- We're talking about religious scriptures here which we are to rely upon our salvation. If we find a few rotten apples in there how can we trust the rest of it particularly in regards to prayer which till this day cannot be shown to have any beneficial effect scientifically moreso than any placebo effect? Only if the whole scriprue was reliable then we could imply that the prayer method in there is also most probably true. GOD Bless!
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not logical. Do you condemn a whole set of fruits because of a rotten apple.
If there is a claim that this set of fruits is the wisdom from Allah given to Muhammed and that they have scientifically been verified and classified as sound and there is one rotten lie, then yes, because I know the wisdom from Allah will not contain 1 rotten lie.
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Peace "Badr",
JK- Nowehere does the Quran say that Muhammad explained to us the prayer. You might as well say Muhammad explained to us what every word in the Quran means and what the meanings of those terms further mean and so on ad infinitum. The Quran states do salat and zakat. We're free to understand them as we think makes reasonable sense and then perform them in that manner within the limits laid out in the Quran. If we perform salat in a manner which doesnt contradict the Quran anywhere, no matter how we perofm it, it's FINE. Is that so diofficult to understand?
No, you are not free to understand them as you want. You are not more capable of those who witnessed the revelation let alone the one who brought it to mankind.
JK- No i don't have to confess anything except if it were true that one wing actually exlusively carried the diseases and the other the cure for the same.
Like I said, when science will be enough advanced to prove it will talk it back D.
JK- We're talking about religious scriptures here which we are to rely upon our salvation. If we find a few rotten apples in there how can we trust the rest of it particularly in regards to prayer which till this day cannot be shown to have any beneficial effect scientifically moreso than any placebo effect?
Try it/eat it to verify and you'll know or ask a specialist in biology/islam theologist.
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hahahahahaha ;D this is the english translation my dear. Where in arabic it says regular ?
so salat is not regular either?My claim is that there's 5 pillars that one must make in order to roger the orders of god.
not sure what your word 'roger' means in there but you are saying that one who prays, pays zakat, does hajj, fasts and declares there is only One God AND Muhammed is the prophet of God has fulfilled all that God asks, even if this is all surface ritual with no thought, emotion, connection?
Now, according to quran aloners what must one make ? can he not perform zakaat ? can he not make hajj ? can he not make salaat ? etc...
Has anyone said that? These things are all in Quran so why would you even think that? ???There must be things to do that according to you that characterize the true muslim.
Yes of course, follow the Quran and thinking and reflecting on its verses and meaning, which is what it says to do. Feeling what it says and feeling the connection to God, asking Him for guidence. Keeping up the remembrance of Him at all times in all we do. Truely meaning it with the heart, not just as some ritual to gain points.If one must make these 5 pillars then they are the 5 pillars of islam, if one can elude them so how much pillars you have ?
Who says one should elude them? They are in Quran so they are from the God. If the God needed to say these are the 5 pillars He is more than capable of saying that, He didn't. We do what Quran says to do and if there is not the detail that you seem to need then it is not important as all the detail we need is in there, fully detailed and complete for those who reflect. This is not a job where you are told what to do and you learn it and do it mindlessly without any thought or reflection but just follow the rules of ritual in action only. This is the spiritual guidence from the creator. By your definition all the men I know that pray, fast, pay a small portion on the days of zakat, do shahadah and hajj then come back and beat the wifes and kids, rip people off and have millions in the bank while they spit on the poor are good muslims doing all that the God asks. That is not what I see in the message from God at all Alhamdulillah!
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No, you are not free to understand them as you want. You are not more capable of those who witnessed the revelation let alone the one who brought it to mankind.
Allah says Quran is easy to understand, complete and fully detailed. Quran also warns of how things were changed before and warns of those who say we hear and obey with thier mouths and not their hearts, it warns of the hypocrisy of the Arabs, it warns what was said behind his back, the people WITH Muhammed, it warns MUHAMMED, it also gives verses for those who did witness the revelation and STILL wanted more or something else or something different and you are saying to follow those we were warned about rather than use the brain God gave us and follow what GOD said? -
so salat is not regular either?
it's not what I've said but I proved my point.
not sure what your word 'roger' means in there but you are saying that one who prays, pays zakat, does hajj, fasts and declares there is only One God AND Muhammed is the prophet of God has fulfilled all that God asks, even if this is all surface ritual with no thought, emotion, connection?
No saying the Shahada and meaning it and doing all the rest with conviction and also following all what's in the quran too.
Has anyone said that? These things are all in Quran so why would you even think that? ???
it's coming
Yes of course, follow the Quran and thinking and reflecting on its verses and meaning, which is what it says to do. Feeling what it says and feeling the connection to God, asking Him for guidence. Keeping up the remembrance of Him at all times in all we do. Truely meaning it with the heart, not just as some ritual to gain points.
But these rituals are in it so they're obligatory no ?
Who says one should elude them? They are in Quran so they are from the God. If the God needed to say these are the 5 pillars He is more than capable of saying that, He didn't. We do what Quran says to do and if there is not the detail that you seem to need then it is not important as all the detail we need is in there, fully detailed and complete for those who reflect. This is not a job where you are told what to do and you learn it and do it mindlessly without any thought or reflection but just follow the rules of ritual in action only. This is the spiritual guidence from the creator. By your definition all the men I know that pray, fast, pay a small portion on the days of zakat, do shahadah and hajj then come back and beat the wifes and kids, rip people off and have millions in the bank while they spit on the poor are good muslims doing all that the God asks. That is not what I see in the message from God at all Alhamdulillah!
So if I understand, you should not elude them nor confess they are pillars
You did not answer my question ; what are the pillars of the quran-aloners ? it must be some stuff you absolutely have to do that differenciate you from all other lost sunni muslims
Please keep your stupid examples as a man who beats his wife and all for you, we can only agree about that it's islam + common sense + good morals etc etc... ...
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Allah says Quran is easy to understand, complete and fully detailed. Quran also warns of how things were changed before and warns of those who say we hear and obey with thier mouths and not their hearts, it warns of the hypocrisy of the Arabs, it warns what was said behind his back, the people WITH Muhammed, it warns MUHAMMED, it also gives verses for those who did witness the revelation and STILL wanted more or something else or something different and you are saying to follow those we were warned about rather than use the brain God gave us and follow what GOD said?
1-these people are the best people that have been created on earth "Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, , under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest" (481
""Muhammad - the messenger of GOD - and those with him are harsh and stern against the disbelievers, but kind and compassionate amongst themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating, as they seek GOD's blessings and approval. Their marks are on their faces, because of prostrating. This is the same example as in the Torah. Their example
in the Gospel is like plants that grow taller and stronger, and please the farmers. He thus enrages the disbelievers. GOD promises THOSE AMONG THEM who believe, and lead a righteous life, forgiveness and a great recompense." (4829)2-You seem to be a little bit (to not say alot) racist about arabs. While you must think good about all muslims and especially the arabs that god blessed with the prophet from them and amongst them instead of the israelites.