Proof Qur'an-alone is Error
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Peace "Badr",
JK- Even as a sunni whatever is not restricted it is open to do. For example i can bow however fast I want or stay in the bowing position for as long as i want. Although wahabis claim "rafai yadain(raising of both hands)" is necessary after every ruku and sajda other sunnis don't so for the latter it is a choice. WHAT Quran Alone muslims say is that GOD has given us EVEN MORE FREEDOM than the hadith which is much better in our understanding.
EVEN MORE FREEDOM ??? luchy you ! so do what thy wilt.
salaat requires "tuma'anina" -according to the prophet- wich is tranquility so it is easy to find the right speed. Raising both hands or not is a smaaall detail, once you respect the number of rakaa and sajda and say what theres to say your salaat is correct anyway.
It is also permitted to speed salaat (when you pray at house or the imam can do) when theres a adanger or in case of a baby/child crying for you (whether you are his father, mother, uncle, baby sitter, grand parent etc...) or something from that type.
JK Do you know Emil's story?
Do you ? ;D
JK- The women cut off their hands entirely after seeing Joseph? Common don't be ridiculous. Be realistic and imagine some people peeling apples with a knife. Then something shocks them, would they just hurt their hands such that they bleed or cut their entire hand off? The verse does NOT say "qt' yad tamaama" which would then clearly mean "cut the entire hand".
They saw a man with a beauty that been never and will be never seen-half of the beauty given to humanity was given to Yusuf- so I can understand they cut their hands, maybe not entirely, maybe only the fingers, maybe some of them only opened their hands up, it still the same.
JK- "Kill yourself" can also imply "kill your ego", not necessarily a physical kill. There are many Arabic speakers here on this forum and they agree.
Once you're in that trip you can agree with every thing. Theres no doubt about the "kill yourself" of the verse you are just wanting to understand it otherwise because it seems hardcore to your little heart that God asks people to kill themselves to be forgiven. But real life aint a Barbie world like you seem/like to think it.
K- No it means understanding what GOD wants independent of GROUP BIAS like the "scholars" you follow. You on the other hand are following the "scholar" desires, directly or indirectly. The trick is that they tell you it is God and His Prophet telling you this WHILST IT IS ACTUALLY THEM making it up. HOWVER if you did an independent study using reason and logic you could come closer to what GOD is actually is saying. GOD Bless!
I did, I have a mind, I used it, I saw both sides of the coin and made my mind with all conviction and sincerity with God and with myself. I don't try to make things suit me I acclimate myself with things (when it comes to religion of course). I dont try to interpret the verses differently than what they really are. I make my mind even when it is about what the scholars say I don't swallow it blindly.
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Peace again "Badr",
And btw there is an "Islamic" government in SAudi Arabia as well as in Afghanistan under the Taliban. You just don't agree with their version, though they are sunnis and also follow hadith and sunnah. GOD Bless!
They rule over a small part of muslim, they did not have been elected by shura wich is the normal way to elect.
Saudi Arabia is a big fraud when it comes to the government ; it is a monarchy, they stole the throne.
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Peace "Badr",
EVEN MORE FREEDOM ??? luchy you ! so do what thy wilt.
salaat requires "tuma'anina" -according to the prophet- wich is tranquility so it is easy to find the right speed. Raising both hands or not is a smaaall detail, once you respect the number of rakaa and sajda and say what theres to say your salaat is correct anyway.
It is also permitted to speed salaat (when you pray at house or the imam can do) when theres a adanger or in case of a baby/child crying for you (whether you are his father, mother, uncle, baby sitter, grand parent etc...) or something from that type.JK- See now you're deciding what is small and what is not and as to what is tranquility, everyone can decide that for him/herself anyway. All people don't find tranquility at the same speed so this is open. Again we as Quran Alone Muslims don't agree that God ordered such a rigid manner of salat as defined in hadith but even more open. That's all there is to it.
Do you ? ;D
JK- I was not the one making assumptions about him. YOU on the other hand said that he abandoned the sunna because he is afraid to be judged by friends and family.
They saw a man with a beauty that been never and will be never seen-half of the beauty given to humanity was given to Yusuf- so I can understand they cut their hands, maybe not entirely, maybe only the fingers, maybe some of them only opened their hands up, it still the same.
JK- THAT is exactly the points the "cut" leaves ROOM i.e. it does not necessarily imply the entire hand and as such we can divide thiefs into categories i.e. he steals more more cut and add more complex variables instead of just one dollar cent above the min allowed according to gold standard set in hadith and the whole hand goes off, one below that and he/shes safe.
Once you're in that trip you can agree with every thing. Theres no doubt about the "kill yourself" of the verse you are just wanting to understand it otherwise because it seems hardcore to your little heart that God asks people to kill themselves to be forgiven. But real life aint a Barbie world like you seem/like to think it.
JK- Your "scholars" also differ on the interpretations of verses in the Quran so don't give me this. e.g. "said-ul-bahr" some interpret as "game of the see" saying GOD allows all that is in water whilst others say "fish of the sea" and hence only fish are allowed. AND yes I do think it makes no sense that GOD would say such and in my and many others undertstandings of that verse He didn't.
I did, I have a mind, I used it, I saw both sides of the coin and made my mind with all conviction and sincerity with God and with myself. I don't try to make things suit me I acclimate myself with things (when it comes to religion of course). I dont try to interpret the verses differently than what they really are. I make my mind even when it is about what the scholars say I don't swallow it blindly.
JK- Verses do NOT STAND ON THEIR OWN. INTERPRETATION IS ALWAYS required. That's a fact of any language. Your dishonest if you don't admit that. You have made up your mind mostly with what your sunni "scholars" interpret for you. We too have made up our mind and are confident until we acquire new evidence again via independent investiagtion as wel always try to do in order to elininate any group bias. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
Killing an apostate requires four witnesses?
Adultery requires four witnesses.
An apostate must embrace islam then revert and fight against muslim or become a threat to the whole community.
Also how would you react to a brother in faith of yours killing someone, by himself, because by both his and your definition that someone has gone out of the fold of what you understand is islam e.g. becomes Ahmadi or starts beleiving in messengers after Muhammad? GOD Bless!
It is totally forbidden in islam, one can't act by himself and be the judge and the executioner.
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You are contradiction your fellow quran-aloners by saying
1-salaat is an act instead of "contact" like they say.
2-by telling that there's Ruku/bowing while they say otherwise.
You better have a unique word so I can answer your questions once and for all even I already opened a thread about salat as Muhammad use to do it
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601759.0So in the end, salaat is a act or not, is there a bowing thing or not ?
It is an act.
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/salat_positions_(P119.html
We know that the ruku is a part of it since 2226 mentions it
"And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration."
Qur'an 2226
We know that it refers to prayer since the alternative PRAYER (salaat) is presented in 835
"And their prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands; taste then the chastisement, for you disbelieved."
I am not contradicting a logical conclusion.
Khuda hafiz
P.S. Your description of salaat in the other thread is pieced together from many sources. I specified one hadith, and there are different versions of Muhammad's (SAW) prayer. Plus yours contradicts the Qur'an.
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;D
Of course I know, once the soul was insufflated into Adam and reached his noze, he sneezed and angels told him "god bless you".
Wrong, check your sources.
You abandon the sunna because you are afraid to be judged by your friend and family while you must stand firm and defend it, you cant escape from rules like cuttin the hand of the thief, it is stated black on white, it is another way of thinking, another dimension, you can't compare with your european way of life, of course it is in contradiction with it. Didnt Musa asked his people who gone astray (golden cow) to kill each others to be forgotten, what if islam stated that ? you wont accept it at all ?
Are you talking about me personally or us QA? I never abandoned the sunna if you are referring to Muhammed's sunna, I follow the sunna of Allah so how can I abandon something that I never followed? And my family is sunni, fyi. And surprise surprise they accept me...They have seen that following the Quran is the thing that counts in the end. The reason why they stick to sunni is because they since childhood have done all the rituals and they feel uncomfortable breaking the habit.
And for cutting the hands off thieves, not everything is literal, my friend. There is a reason behind why Allah used these words. If you would read the Quran without hadith you would be able to see it too.Look, I already posted about 150 message in 4 days I already posted all my objections, why do you want me to get back at it again and summerize for you ? read my posts and you'll know what I don't agree with.
Look, you don't understand what I mean. Hadith this and Obey the Messenger that is not sound objections because they can be refuted. I will give you an example of a sound objection, ok?
Following ortodox islam, has it ever occurred that a person or group of persons have interpreted the Sunnah to include killing innocent people?
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Peace "Badr"
Adultery requires four witnesses.
JK- I know that but apostasy was touched upon too.
An apostate must embrace islam then revert and fight against muslim or become a threat to the whole community.
JK- Ok say someone becomes an apostate, does not physically fight against anyone, BUT he criticizes the system of what you understand as "Islam", points out flaws in it and propagates his new system/solutions to the "Muslim" community by writing articles and or appearing in the media.
It is totally forbidden in islam, one can't act by himself and be the judge and the executioner.
JK- SO what would you do in an "islamic state", if available, if such a person killed an apostate, who also did the above, where both you and he agreed that he really is? ALSO show me a hadith which says this is totally forbidden. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
JK- See now you're deciding what is small and what is not and as to what is tranquility, everyone can decide that for him/herself anyway. All people don't find tranquility at the same speed so this is open. Again we as Quran Alone Muslims don't agree that God ordered such a rigid manner of salat as defined in hadith but even more open. That's all there is to it.
It is open in a limit not totally interchangeable.
JK- I was not the one making assumptions about him. YOU on the other hand said that he abandoned the sunna because he is afraid to be judged by friends and family.
He said it, rewind the discussion and check his posts. You're always assuming that I'm dishonest.
JK- THAT is exactly the points the "cut" leaves ROOM i.e. it does not necessarily imply the entire hand and as such we can divide thiefs into categories i.e. he steals more more cut and add more complex variables instead of just one dollar cent above the min allowed according to gold standard set in hadith and the whole hand goes off, one below that and he/shes safe.
Of course because if you see the whole picture alot of women and to cut their hands by themselves, ones can be more concentrated than others etc...
But the other verse is a rule wich is cristal clear O you belivers, the thief and the thiefess/female thief, cut off their hands !!!!! couldnt be more clear.
JK- Your "scholars" also differ on the interpretations of verses in the Quran so don't give me this. e.g. "said-ul-bahr" some interpret as "game of the see" saying GOD allows all that is in water whilst others say "fish of the sea" and hence only fish are allowed. AND yes I do think it makes no sense that GOD would say such and in my and many others undertstandings of that verse He didn't.
What's said-ul-bahr ??? in arabic ?
JK- Verses do NOT STAND ON THEIR OWN. INTERPRETATION IS ALWAYS required. That's a fact of any language. Your dishonest if you don't admit that. You have made up your mind mostly with what your sunni "scholars" interpret for you. We too have made up our mind and are confident until we acquire new evidence again via independent investiagtion as wel always try to do in order to elininate any group bias. GOD Bless!
independant investigation ? nope
What 3103 means to you ?
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It is an act.
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/salat_positions_(P119.html
We know that the ruku is a part of it since 2226 mentions it
"And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration."
Qur'an 2226
We know that it refers to prayer since the alternative PRAYER (salaat) is presented in 835
"And their prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands; taste then the chastisement, for you disbelieved."
I am not contradicting a logical conclusion.
Khuda hafiz
Most people here says no.
P.S. Your description of salaat in the other thread is pieced together from many sources. I specified one hadith, and there are different versions of Muhammad's (SAW) prayer.
theres no single hadith, the prophet says "pray as you see me praying" and people reported how they saw him praying, yall assume here they wele ALL wrong, they couldnt see well or I dunno what. Maybe they are all amnesics.
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Most people here says no.
theres no single hadith, the prophet says "pray as you see me praying" and people reported how they saw him praying, yall assume here they wele ALL wrong, they couldnt see well or I dunno what. Maybe they are all amnesics.
Most people say no? That does not concern me since the people in this thread seem to agree that salaat is an act.
In a hadith we are told to kill the scorpion and the snake during salaat. Again why do you accept a hadith over the Qur'an? Read 456. The exact word hadith is mentioned. Why do you pray 2 out of 5 silently?
Khuda hafiz
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Wrong, check your sources.
Enlight me !
Are you talking about me personally or us QA? I never abandoned the sunna if you are referring to Muhammed's sunna, I follow the sunna of Allah so how can I abandon something that I never followed? And my family is sunni, fyi. And surprise surprise they accept me...They have seen that following the Quran is the thing that counts in the end. The reason why they stick to sunni is because they since childhood have done all the rituals and they feel uncomfortable breaking the habit.
And for cutting the hands off thieves, not everything is literal, my friend. There is a reason behind why Allah used these words. If you would read the Quran without hadith you would be able to see it too.You said I am a quran aloner and I am better now because I dont have to defend myself before people.
Of course your family will accept you, why wouldnt they ?
In this case it is literal.
Look, you don't understand what I mean. Hadith this and Obey the Messenger that is not sound objections because they can be refuted. I will give you an example of a sound objection, ok?
Following ortodox islam, has it ever occurred that a person or group of persons have interpreted the Sunnah to include killing innocent people?
Your are judgin people here not the prophet saying, of course there people who interpret hadith to accomplish their greedy goals.
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Peace "Badr",
It is open in a limit not totally interchangeable.
JK- The Quran also defines some limits in our understanding like specific times, performing wudu before doing it, bowing and prostrating(though not everyone agrees but i still do), trying best to focus on GOD Alone. Within these we are free to act. Additionally any of these limits can also be challenged if someone comes up with a better interpreation.
He said it, rewind the discussion and check his posts. You're always assuming that I'm dishonest.
JK- In that case it's fine and no I don't always assume that at times I do.
Of course because if you see the whole picture alot of women and to cut their hands by themselves, ones can be more concentrated than others etc...
But the other verse is a rule wich is cristal clear O you belivers, the thief and the thiefess/female thief, cut off their hands !!!!! couldnt be more clear.
JK- I agree it is clear to "cut the hands" BUT as to how much, that is not clear. This is why I belevie GOD gave the example of the story above in Joseph. What a coinidence that He mentions the same word for "cut" in there and also that particular part of Josephs story is missing even in the Bible, though much of the rest is there too.
What's said-ul-bahr ??? in arabic ?
JK- 596 Y.Ali awful to you is the pursuit of water-game(saad-ya-daal ul BAHR(ba-Ha-ra) and its use for food...
Pickthall; To hunt and to eat the fish of the seaHanfi school of thought says by this only fish are allowed whilst shafi and the others say all game from the water is halal. GOD Bless!
independant investigation ? nope
What 3103 means to you ?
JK- Yes and we think that we are holding fast to the rope of GOD by 1st independetly and without bias trying to study his word. THEN we come together and check each other. Otherwise we would be full of biases and coudlnt tell whether GOD is actually saying x,y,z or just our desires AS YOU ACUSE OF. Infact it is group thinking like your system where it leads Qurnaic verses and hadith as well to be understood according to your desire, instead of reason and logic. GOD Bless!