Lord of the universes! Rab ilAlamin !
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Peace all,
The Lord of the Universes!!! (Rab Alameen)!!
In Arabic we say Rabul ilallamin, Indicating the meaning of Lord of the Universes, where else pertaining the understanding we inherited from old scholars and school, family and are using till today!
I have tackled this issue many times and I can not accept the definition of the word ? Alameen as being the worlds or universes!! Although the word Alam in Arabic would mean ? World/ Universe!
These are my reasons
1- It is very peculiar that the word (considered as Alameen- Universes) always come in plural form and in genitive case and esp. after the word Rab. So one may ask what is the plural form of this word in subjective case? All will see that no where in the quran you may find the word in plural form of Alamon ,(if it is really belong to that category of verbs) as in subjective case or else in singular form as Alam!! Universe!
Have you ever questioned this extraordinary case!? Or else what is the plural form of universes in subjective case?
2- The plural form of the word ( Alam) universe in Arabic is
( Awalem) universes! And not Alamin! Unless the specified object was a different issue than we claim to be as universes!
3- In the whole Quran , we see that there is the word ?Alem - indicating knowledge and knowledgeable people , as ( Alem )in singular form and its plural form ? Alemoon (subjective) or Alemeen (accusative or genitive case), in Arabic.
4- It is important to indicate that there is a different word specifying knowledgeable people (but in plural form where indicating human being, never in singular form) in the whole quran, where else it is same attribute given to our Lord is in singular form,(Aleem ) or ( Alim) ? the plural form given for human being as an attribute is Ulama? in verse (26197) and some other verse. This word is in plural form, as I presume happened twice in the Quran. It might refer to knowledge with experience, or knowledge of hidden information, or knowledge of specific branch of Science, i.e (specialist)!
5- The word that describes other people or other creatures is Umam (in plural form) as mentioned in verse (63where or Lord is indicating about birds and other creatures.
6- The word indicating other universes always were referred by our Lord as in verse(2255) & (2164)by ?(Alsamawat WalArd wama baynahuma) in Arabic.
7- The verse (2122) and (4516) are not referring to the whole creatures nor universes, since bani Israel would not be preferred over the angles, or prophets or messengers, or else will they!!? Verse(318, (4166), (1649)!
8- In verse (5149) our Lord informs us of ?creating in pairs? ? So the meaning might be for dual worlds, i.e. the world and anti world, the death and the live! But again this thing fade away when mentioning the verse (2122) & (4516)! Or else word of manifold meanings (37) allegorical verses!
9- The word Alem might indicate the meaning of ?aware of ?.
10- The basmallah (rab ilalamin), may be interpreted as ? The initiator of ?everything we know?! The initiator of the known. (But in plural form). And this word is of allegorical meanings!Any comments ,
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Salam Noor,
Nice analysis.
10- The basmallah (rab ilalamin), may be interpreted as ? The initiator of ?everything we know?! The initiator of the known. (But in plural form). And this word is of allegorical meanings!
I prefer the initiator of everything, IMHO.
The same question was raised by Br Mohamed (someone) in this thread
Chapter 1How do you understand this word in the following verses?
FM
247. O Children of Israel, remember My blessings that I had blessed you with, and that I had preferred you to all the worlds (alAAalameena)!-
So they defeated them by God?s leave, and David killed Goliath, and God gave him the kingship and the wisdom and taught him what He wished. And had it not been for God pushing the people to challenge one another, then the Earth would have long been corrupted. But God has done favour over the worlds .
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God has selected Adam, and Noah, and the family of Abraham, and the family of Imran over the worlds.
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And the Angels said ?O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has selected you over the women of the worlds.?
Shabir
247 (Once again) O Children of Israel! Remember the Bliss I bestowed upon you and gave you distinction among the nations of your times (when you were faithful to My Commands).2251 And, they routed the much bigger force by the Law of Allah, as David, who was one of the officers of Saul, slew the mighty commander, Goliath. Then Allah honored David with a powerful kingdom, along with wisdom and sound judgment, and commissioned him for the special Office of Knowledge. We have decreed that those who spend their youth in righteousness, i.e., benefiting humanity, shall be granted knowledge and wisdom ((1222), (2814)). The annihilation of the mighty armies of Goliath bears a historical lesson for mankind that if Balance in Nature were not one of the Laws, tyrants would ransack the earth and its inhabitants unopposed. But, oppression brings revolution and eventually, the oppressed overthrow the oppressors (2239). Allah is Limitless in His Bounties to the Worlds.
333 But Allah has chosen people before to convey the Message. Adam, the first humans were chosen (to have free will apart from the animal kingdom). Then Noah, the family of Abraham and the family of Imran were chosen above other peoples of their times.
342 Angels told her, ?Allah has chosen you, given you spotless character and given you distinction among the women of your times.?
Thanks
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Peace noor, all
A verse that might add some understandings.
2943
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Peace,
I believe the word you mention in plural form in the above verse would mean - those who have knowledge, and it has no reference to (Worlds/ universes) ,since the word ( Ya'kel" is there as to mean , to think of..
Therefore , it is not the same argued word that I raised.
I already noted that there are two plural forms for the word -knowers and these are
in subjuctive case - Alemoon , and in accusative and genetive case which is Alemeen.
But there is not for the word that would mean Universes - Alamon with a letter a - and not Alemoon , with a letter e ... since the plural form of the word Alam is as I said previously Awalem!
I hope I made myself clear.God Bless,
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Dear Marie,
Well, I believe that the exact translation of ( Rab Alemeen) should read ? Those who know, and although this will create confusion for those who do not know and others, but allow me explain my self here,
My view to this is a little bit a philosophical one, but since you have an open mind, I will share it with you. But I will try to make as short as possible!
This life (our life) is an illusion! (638, (3185) ..etc.
The hereafter is the fact ? (2860) , (4236), (8717).
This life is a test for us.. Test whether we acknowledge our Lord or not!
This life is a test for us to acknowledge the truth of our Lord! (5120-23), and other verses.
This life is the pavement we have to make as to enjoy the true Life!
This life is the kit that triggers the next real one!
Only, the time we die, will be the true wake up, then we will be aware of the truth of our Lord (5022) but then we have no return, nor a way to go back.Therefore, while we are living this life, we are learning to know about our Lord and his bounty.
Our Lord is manifesting His existence through the things he created for us here in this life.
Those who believe will acknowledge these facts and will be among those who know!
Those who disbelieve will never acknowledge this fact and will remain as ignorant! Those who do not know!
Knowing things in this life is the step toward acknowledging our existence, hence acknowledging our Lord existence.
Those who do not know or acknowledge, will never be (5022), since their refusal to acknowledge their Lord is refusal to acknowledge their existence. I mean how would a creature refuse to acknowledge his creator? If he refused to acknowledge His creator, it would mean simply that he is not there.
Those who acknowledge themselves and things around are really acknowledging their creator, their Lord.You may Ask, but this is the Lord, if you deny his existence, He is still you?re their and is your Lord!!
That is true. But the big question is Will this be your reply if you were not acknowledging Him?Acknowledge come from knowledge!
The time you came to know something, it means you are acknowledging him, his fact, his nature, his behavior.
Knowing things is not simply to know name.. But to identify and recognize after a study.Therefore, as you go by with the rest of the (basmallah), you see those who know their Lord and acknowledge that are the ones who would ask God for his help and support and ask Him to guide them to the straight path, and to evade them from the path of the astray and the disbelievers.
Those who do not know will never say as such! But will insist on not acknowledging this fact.I hope I made myself clear,
Peace,
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Dear Noor,
Thanks for your clarification and I understand your reasonning but I have some disagreement.
When I said "I prefer the initiator of everything", I mean the Initiator of everything we know and those we don't know; He is also the Lord of the believers and the diebelievers even they disbelieve
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Say ?Shall I seek other than God as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything (rabbu kulli shay-in)?? And every soul earns what is for it, and none will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return and He will inform you of what you disputed in.
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Your Lord is God who created the heavens and Earth in six days, then He settled upon the throne. The night runs from the day, which seeks it continually; and the sun and the moon and the stars are all subjected by His command; to Him is the creation and the command. Glory be to God, the Lord of the worlds.
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If they turn away, then Say ?God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne.?
The plural form of the word ( Alam) universe in Arabic is
( Awalem) universes! And not Alamin! Unless the specified object was a different issue than we claim to be as universes!Maybe I'm wrong, it seems that the form of AAalam (univers) and AAalameen (universes) is similar than salih (righteous, singular form) and saliheen (the righteous ones plural form).
Both AAalameen and AAawalim could be the plural form of AAalam (univers) in the same way for 1) AAalimeen and 2) AAulama which are two plural forms of AAalilm (the knowledgeble).
The God knows best
Sorry for my bad exglish
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Dear Marie,
As I see you either have missed my point , or I was not clear in that.
Nevertheless ,The word Salih and Saleheen are not of same example as A'alm in sigular form! I do not know about your Arabic level on grammer or else if you would recall the verbs in arabic lang. and their transformation , you would not cite that example. But, There is Fa'el and Fa'al , so Salih belongs to Fa'el same as Alem , but Alam belongs to other category Fa'al ! so it is different. and their plural form is as well different.
But in a second thought , (raised now) ! so simple and direct ! (Superlative)
Although, at first you argued about The Lord of the known things.... and I agree with you that He is the Lord of everthing ( kulli shai") , hence I was expecting your reply (read my previous post one more time).
But now , I have a better tool to convey my understanding to you and others..for "example" you argue with your sis , and say I am the most beautiful among my friends !
But your sis would say - I am the (for example" Rab aljamilat" in other words in superlative form , she needed to convey the level of her beauty it means the best of the beautest. including your friends and family and all ladies.Now on same manner, Man (for example) is the most knwoledgeable creature among other creatures! .. But our Lord would tell us He is the Lord of the wisest (superlative form) in other words He is the most Wisest of them all. (omniscient) Rab ul ........ !
On the same manner the Basmallah - mentioning about the knowledgables, savants .. But Our Lord is the most Knowlegeable of them all.. Rab Alalemeen ( superlative case) ! The best One among those knowers and savants .. He is the Rab of them all ' Rab ela'lemeen! The highest level . on top.
On same trend , When He says He is the greatest of them all. there is the great , greater, greatest and the greatest of them all is your Lord.Ihope this time , the thing is much clearer.
peace, -
Salaam Noor, Marie,
I do agree with your assessment, except for one difference.
Alalameen= the known things.
Since GOD knows everything, then he is the Lord of everything.
Salaam
Hussein
Dear Hussein,
Please read all the discussions as to view the derived piece of information about Rab ila'lemeen!
Rab is used as superlative tool !
Rab Alemeen - is the Rab ( Superlative )the best of the best of the knoweldgeables !God bless,
Noor -
Salaam Noor,
I am not certain that I can agree with you about the superlative form for the Rabb. One has to make sure that this was the use in Classical arabic and not something that became used later.
The way I view Rabb that it means Nurturer/sustainer/raiser. Some of the uses of the word are
RABB Albait which means nurturer/sustainer/raiser of the house
Abooy illi Rabbani my father that raised/nurtured/sustained me.So to me RABB ilAAalameen means nurturer/sustainer/raiser of all the known things.
Since GOD knows everything then He is the nurturer of everything.This goes well with Alhamdu lillah Rabb il AAalameen will mean
The praise to the GOD, nurturer of evrything.
Salaam and have a good day
Hussein
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Greetings All,
Let?s review the classic definition for the subject matter?
= ?rabbu alAAalameena?
?rabbu alAAalameena? definition
The Lord of the jinn, or genii, and of mankind the Lord of all created beings. It comes from the root ?alama?, which means to mark, sign, and distinguish. He knew it; or he was, or became, acquainted with it; or he knew it truly, or certainly. He knew a thing intuitively and inferentially. He marked it. He, a man, had a fissure in his upper lip; or in one of its two sides. Knowledge.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2138 - 2142
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 383 - 385Occurrences of ?rabbu alAAalameena? in the Koran 34
Locations 1.2, 5.28, 6.45, 6.162, 7.54, 7.61, 7.67, 7.104, 10.10, 10.37, 26.16, 26.23, 26.77, 26.109, 26.127, 26.145, 26.164, 26.180, 26.192, 27.8, 27.44, 28.30, 32.2, 37.182, 39.75, 40.64, 40.65, 41.9, 43.46, 45.36, 56.80, 59.16, 69.43, 81.29
Thus?a review of the classic definition tells us that this phrase is referring to the (plural) Jinn and Mankind.
The Koran refers to Jinn and Humans throughout its pages, and, by looking at all of the Koranic locations where this exact same phrase occurs, we have to ask ourselves who the ?Lord? in these ayahs is referring to in the first place.
It is rather obvious that this phrase is embedded in Biblical Eschatological material ? primarily from the Biblical Book of Revelation?..hence, we can better understand that the Jinn are actually the demonic locusts as described in the Bible?..then, that also leaves little imagination for who the ?Lord? then refers to?.
Thanks?
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Greetings Wakas,
Thanks for your comment?
al AAalameena = the creations/beings
And the creations are specifically the jinn, or genii, and mankind?
Lane is correct?.and we can easily confirm this by looking to the contexts of its usage through out the entire Koran?
Take care?
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apple pie,
It's great that you have access to Lane's and use it to look deeper into the meaning of the Quran. Of course you can do this because of the preservation of the Quran and the Arabic language.
Unfortunately, it is very difficult for Muslims who are used to such precision to take anything from the Bible as "authentic." The original Aramaic of the Gospels is gone, we some translated Greek manuscripts and in some cases not even that.
It's too bad that there wasn't an Aramaic version of the book of Revelations around, as well as an Aramaic lexicon, so that we could truly see what the meanings were. As it is, the book of revelations is a translation of a translation of which the original is lost.
How can you ask the Muslim, who is so used to the precision and clarity of the Quran and Arabic (with which you also seem acquainted), to refer to the Biblical books?
As far as demonic locusts are concerned, I'd probably work on that theory a bit by at least looking at the other verses concerning jinn.
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Greetings shuaib,
Thanks for your reply?
It's great that you have access to Lane's and use it to look deeper into the meaning of the Quran. Of course you can do this because of the preservation of the Quran and the Arabic language.
Actually, it is an absolute necessity that a Classic Lexicon (such as Lane?s) be utilized to truly comprehend what the Koran stated at the time that it was penned by its authors.
You may find these quotes from Lane?s Lexicon rather enlightening?
Every language without a written literature tends to decay more than to development by reason of foreign influences; and the history of the Arabic exhibits an instance of decay remarkably rapid, and extraordinary in degree. An immediate consequence of the foreign conquests achieved by the Arabs under Mohammad?s first four successors was an extensive corruption of their language; for the nations that they subdued were naturally obliged to adopt in a great measure the speech of the conquerors, a speech which few persons have ever acquired in such a degree as to be secure from the commission of frequent errors in grammar without learning it from infancy?.
Such being the case, it became a matter of the highest importance to the Arabs to preserve the knowledge of that speech which had thus become obsolescent, and to draw a distinct line between the classical and the post-classical languages. For the former language was that of the Kur-an and of the Traditions of Mohammad, the sources of their religious, moral, civil, criminal, and political code? and they possessed, in that language, preserved by oral tradition, - for the art of writing, in Arabia, had been almost exclusively confined to Christians and Jews?.
The classical language they called, by reason of its incomparable excellence, ?el-loghah,? or ?the language? and the line between this and the post-classical was easily drawn, on account of the almost sudden commencement, and rapid progress, of the corruption.
?.I often have found in my knowledge of modern Arabic a solution of a difficulty; but without great caution, such knowledge would frequently have misled me, in consequence of the changes which have taken place in the applications of many words since the classical age.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. vii ? viii; xxii - xxiiiThus?it is painfully clear why any serious student of the Koran needs to study the classic Arabic in which the Koran was written.
Additionally?.and this is of utmost importance?.observe that the art of writing was almost exclusively confined to Christians and Jews?!
I?ll give you one guess who penned the Koranic text as we know it today?..!
Unfortunately, it is very difficult for Muslims who are used to such precision to take anything from the Bible as "authentic."
Precision?.?
Additionally?.the authors of the Koran readily admit that they just collected, collated, and translated the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?.and called it the ?Collection?, or Koran?
The original Aramaic of the Gospels is gone, we some translated Greek manuscripts and in some cases not even that.
Original Aramaic?..?
It's too bad that there wasn't an Aramaic version of the book of Revelations around, as well as an Aramaic lexicon, so that we could truly see what the meanings were. As it is, the book of revelations is a translation of a translation of which the original is lost.
The Book of Revelations was penned in Koine Greek, and it is a summary of the Holy Bible.
For the Muslim, the Book of Revelation?s authenticity has been confirmed many times over by the undeniable fact that the Koran contains most of its contents within its pages.
How can you ask the Muslim, who is so used to the precision and clarity of the Quran and Arabic (with which you also seem acquainted), to refer to the Biblical books?
The authors of the Koran repeatedly make this claim?.not me?.
As far as demonic locusts are concerned, I'd probably work on that theory a bit by at least looking at the other verses concerning jinn.
Been there?.done that?.
It is absolutely beyond any reasonable doubt that the Koranic concept of Jinns has its genesis in the Biblical Book of Revelation.
Thanks?
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apple pie,
I?ll give you one guess who penned the Koranic text as we know it today?..!
Perhaps it was the same people responsible for the PRE-Islamic inscriptions on tombs etc that are found today. Writing was NOT EXCLUSIVE to jews and Christians. the Quran from the earliest has been written in ARABIC and it has never by any historian been suggested that it was written by non-Muslims.
Instead of just jumping to conclusions based on partial truths, how about providing more clear evidence and full logic?
Additionally?.the authors of the Koran readily admit that they just collected, collated, and translated the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?.and called it the ?Collection?, or Koran?
Again, a ridiculous claim without any evidence. The word Quran may mean compilation, but it is your OWN assumption that this means the Jewish and Christian books that exist today. Muslims do believe that Jews and Christians were blessed with sacred scriptures at one time, HOWEVER, we believe they were LOST and/or CORRUPTED... therefore, the Quran is NOT a compilation of the extant copies of the Torah or Bible.. to claim such would be to claim the Quran is just as bad as those books are. The Quran is a compilation that includes the TRUE messages that have been LOST.
You may trick other Christians into believing this falsehood, but no Muslim would be so easily fooled.
Jinns - Demonic locusts??
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
Does it look like jinn could be DEMONIC LOCUSTS?? It's so nonsensical that its almost a waste of time refuting. Is there anywhere in the Lane's lexicon that you "study" that mention of locusts in the section of jinn? Making claims like this is only going to weaken your stance even further.
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Just to throw in some facts...
The early revelations mentioned by name in the Qur'an are the Torah, Zabur (Psalms) and Injil (Gospels). Therefore, it can safely be said that among all books collected in the Bible, only these three are considered to be from God (and subsequently altered by Jews and Christians).
The Book of Revelation is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an.
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Greetings shuaib,
Thanks for your reply?
Quote
I?ll give you one guess who penned the Koranic text as we know it today?..!Perhaps it was the same people responsible for the PRE-Islamic inscriptions on tombs etc that are found today. Writing was NOT EXCLUSIVE to jews and Christians. the Quran from the earliest has been written in ARABIC and it has never by any historian been suggested that it was written by non-Muslims.
Instead of just jumping to conclusions based on partial truths, how about providing more clear evidence and full logic?
Quote
Additionally?.the authors of the Koran readily admit that they just collected, collated, and translated the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?.and called it the ?Collection?, or Koran?Again, a ridiculous claim without any evidence. The word Quran may mean compilation, but it is your OWN assumption that this means the Jewish and Christian books that exist today.
My position is supported straight from the classic Arabic text of the Koran.
I already covered this ground?feel completely free to look at it yourself?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40195#40195
Muslims do believe that Jews and Christians were blessed with sacred scriptures at one time, HOWEVER, we believe they were LOST and/or CORRUPTED...
Unfortunately, you are once again taking the stance of Islam?..NOT the Koran.
The Koran has nothing but praise for its Biblical source material.
therefore, the Quran is NOT a compilation of the extant copies of the Torah or Bible.. to claim such would be to claim the Quran is just as bad as those books are. The Quran is a compilation that includes the TRUE messages that have been LOST.
Actually, the authors who penned the Koran (as we know it today) fall all over themselves proclaiming their Biblical source material.
To deny the Holy Bible is to deny your Koran.
Jinns - Demonic locusts??
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
Does it look like jinn could be DEMONIC LOCUSTS?? It's so nonsensical that its almost a waste of time refuting. Is there anywhere in the Lane's lexicon that you "study" that mention of locusts in the section of jinn? Making claims like this is only going to weaken your stance even further.
Actually, all of the descriptives given to the demonic locusts, as described in the Biblical Book of Revelation, are also given to the Koranic description(s) of the Jinn?and yes, Lane supports my position on this as well?
Thanks for your interest?
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Greetings Andya Primanda,
Thanks for your reply?
Just to throw in some facts...
The early revelations mentioned by name in the Qur'an are the Torah, Zabur (Psalms) and Injil (Gospels).
And??.keep going?.
Additionally, thanks for acknowledging that the Koran uses Biblical material?
Therefore, it can safely be said that among all books collected in the Bible, only these three are considered to be from God (and subsequently altered by Jews and Christians).
Don?t forget the Book of Revelation.
The authors of the Koran did not forget.
Additionally, the Koran never once states that the written word of its main source material (Holy Bible) to be in error in any fashion whatsoever?
Remember?..the horse does not bite the hand that feeds it?
The Book of Revelation is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an.
Actually, the Book of Revelation is one of the two main Biblical books used by the Koranic authors in the compilation of your book of faith?
You really need to give more credit to the Book of Revelation?for without it, the Koran would fall woefully short in its description of Eschatology, heaven, hell, and the Jinns?just to name a few?
Thanks?
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apple pie,
i am going to just concentrate on a few points to focus the discussion.
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Provide the reference for how Lane supports your idea of jinn=demonic locusts.
6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.
So tell me which demonic locusts messengers/Prophets you know of , tell me when/how they have been warned of the day of judgement... and there will be many demonic locusts that will have rejected faith and earn hell???
This is so silly it's sad.
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