Proof Qur'an-alone is Error
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Peace "Badr",
I really don't know I must find myself in this position and look at the fors and againsts, I can say I would emprison him or obligate him to quit the territory but maybe if I was really in the position I would act otherwise. If it becomes a menace to the security of the state I would put the general interest above the private one. I really don't know. Maybe I am not fit to rule the islamic world ;D
JK- We can rule out security issues since there is no physical harm done. He's expressing his opinion as to why in his view the system is flawed. Thats the point. It is insanity to imprison someone for that because it bars society from correecting itself via revision COZ as I said even if you have divinely isnpired scriptures you could have still misinterpreted them and there is no guarantee that any society will ever understand anything in them completely. This alone should make you think on this point.
it is a lie plain and simple, I never heard a single scholar talking about it.
JK- You are right in terms of the usage of the term itself in sunnism. They call it "idtirar" and it is to conceal the faith to protect ones belief. Although sunnis claim they cannot use this to hide the truth, they do for example when they call their "islam" a religion of peace where men and women have equal rights etc BUT when one studies the details this is not the case and they know it.
No I'm not "taqaying" I'm really telling you what I know from the prophet sayings and acts.
JK- Again what you and your group thinks it knows. "know" is a word reserved for things you get to know without any religious/ideological bias.
for the embarrassement ; I would obligate him to stop. But I don't think the women on whom this is applicable feel embarrassed,
JK- Lets take a poll with the women who have not been indoctrinated with this view and see how many will not feel embaraased kwnoing that their husbands acn discipline them with whatvever small stick, whilst they dont have the right explicit right to do the same.
the "beating" is when the woman push it faaaaar away by been infidel and riculising her husband and doing all what it is not permissible to do even with our standards nowerdays (muslim and non muslims standards).
JK- What if the husband went that far? Do you know that most women would feel embarrased by the very statement you made which implies it's mostly women who stray as comapred to men? If not make a poll and ask some of the women right here on this forum who once were sunnis.
According to todays standards ridicule in private btw husband and wife is not punshable at all as long as it's not physical. 2ndly what you're implying is that it's the woman whos most likely to do the ridicule and this embarasses women.Of course it is not OK to have sex when the woman is not in the mood, this is non sense. I can't understand how you can ask such a question, do you really expect me to say "yes the man is allowed to have sex anytime he wants and the woman must shut her mouth" ????
JK- Well I've not heard of any sunni school of thought who would punish a man for doing such except if she has her period and other times laid out by the sharia as ive mentioned. They all say, to my knowledge, a man can have sex with a woman when he desires, exceptions excluded, and she has to come to him "even if shes at the stove" as one hadith states
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwlW9Qq_zEc
SO what would you do to a man if a wife came to you complaining about this and you were the ruler?Says johnny B.
JK- You can go to any secular court or the majority of rational thinkers world wide and most of them, if not all would agree with me on this point. So NO it's not just me.
Middle ages kings only left the dark ages after their contact with islam (orthodox islam not quran-aloner islam).
JK- I don't agree with you because it makes logically no sense by definitioon. Think of it dark ages= killing apostates for 1. coming out meant abolishing this law first and formost. orthodox hadfith islam promotes the same as a fundamental to guard it's faith so how could it make them come out? Think my man.
But as soon as it is a menace to the security they allow their police and secret services to do every thing.
JK- Though Physical security is something different even there they have to be very careful not to violate the 1st amendment and laws are being revised accordingly. Critique of religion or political ideology cannot be condemned by the law under any circumstances. At best they can condemn by law if someone threatens to kill someone or give away government secrets, NEVER can they do so for cricizing any of the political ideologies laws or even the constituion itself without them being forced back by the 1st amendment, the core principle which guaratees freedom of expression for anyone in public.
I'll check it.
JK- Ok. GOD Bless!
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That's what I've said, you really are convinced that you are that little group nope
I was sure that you are NOT gonna look at the aayaats of Allah quoted, but you will try to find a way out, and you did.
Unfortunately, without understanding the aayaats, you came up with a question that has NO relation at all.
So you mean the prophet Muhammad failed on delivering the message and on spreading it to the world ?
Where did you get this meaning from the aayaats that I quoted?
And let me tell you one thing. InshaAllah, we are small group and we will be IN Prophet Mohammed's group as he does the same as we are doing now by Allah's grace.
Upto 200 years or less , the people are on the correct path by holding AlQuraan alone as there was NO hadith available at that time.
After the collection of hadith, people took the wrong way and they misguide themselves and other by throwing Allah's book at back and gave more importance to hadith.
So, if you compare...
Lets assume upto 200 years = No. of people = less
After collection of hadith till date... approx. 1200 years = No. of people = moreThis way is OK for you to check the little group?
May Allah guide us all towards the correct PATH.
Mohammed M. Khan -
The salaat in the mosque ; it is stated in quran, the prophet said that men must pray in mosques and it also sounds right to me as I realise that the goal of islam is to achieve the community unification so I follow.
Can you please quote the aayat like this, as you stated above? I was looking for the same since long
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Mohammed M. Khan -
Peace "Badr",
JK- We can rule out security issues since there is no physical harm done. He's expressing his opinion as to why in his view the system is flawed. Thats the point. It is insanity to imprison someone for that because it bars society from correecting itself via revision COZ as I said even if you have divinely isnpired scriptures you could have still misinterpreted them and there is no guarantee that any society will ever understand anything in them completely. This alone should make you think on this point.
You call it correcting itself, I call it misleading.
I answered the points you stated (wife beating, propaganda, ...) from what sunni/orthodox islam say and you called me a taqiyi/yan/yer = a lyer. Each case is different and theres not a general rule so you can't say all hadith is bad.
Theres so much for us to learn from the prophet and from hadiths like "when three people are together, two of them souldnt whisper between themselves as the third can be saddened".
JK- You are right in terms of the usage of the term itself in sunnism. They call it "idtirar" and it is to conceal the faith to protect ones belief. Although sunnis claim they cannot use this to hide the truth, they do for example when they call their "islam" a religion of peace where men and women have equal rights etc BUT when one studies the details this is not the case and they know it.
You are totally wrong Islam did promote equality, is indeed a religion of peace and nobody's trying to hide the truth. I don't know who gave you that idea or what people you listened to but you're going the wrong route.
JK- Again what you and your group thinks it knows. "know" is a word reserved for things you get to know without any religious/ideological bias.
Of course it is according to written sayings and ahadith about the prophet lifetime.
JK- Lets take a poll with the women who have not been indoctrinated with this view and see how many will not feel embaraased kwnoing that their husbands acn discipline them with whatvever small stick, whilst they dont have the right explicit right to do the same.
This is the law of god, no need to take a poll.
JK- What if the husband went that far? Do you know that most women would feel embarrased by the very statement you made which implies it's mostly women who stray as comapred to men? If not make a poll and ask some of the women right here on this forum who once were sunnis.
According to todays standards ridicule in private btw husband and wife is not punshable at all as long as it's not physical. 2ndly what you're implying is that it's the woman whos most likely to do the ridicule and this embarasses women.I nowhere said its mostly women but we are talking about the women and a particular case that YOU suggested. So dont try to twist it and show yourself like the great women's defender. It's useless, I'm not here to please anyone, I give you the truth if you dont want it and like to call me a liar do as you please I will sleep exactely the same tonight.
JK- Well I've not heard of any sunni school of thought who would punish a man for doing such except if she has her period and other times laid out by the sharia as ive mentioned. They all say, to my knowledge, a man can have sex with a woman when he desires, exceptions excluded, and she has to come to him "even if shes at the stove" as one hadith states
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwlW9Qq_zEc
SO what would you do to a man if a wife came to you complaining about this and you were the ruler?I will chop his neck ! (just kidding)
I will send him in intensive care. (too)
I will ask the woman to have sex with him when he is tired and not in the mood. (seriously ))
I will cut his dick.
;D
JK- I don't agree with you because it makes logically no sense by definitioon. Think of it dark ages= killing apostates for 1. coming out meant abolishing this law first and formost. orthodox hadfith islam promotes the same as a fundamental to guard it's faith so how could it make them come out? Think my man.
This is history man, it's not my personal view, europe only left the dark ages because they were in contact with islam (through Andalusia and the Ottoman empire and all the orientalists etc...).
JK- Though Physical security is something different even there they have to be very careful not to violate the 1st amendment and laws are being revised accordingly. Critique of religion or political ideology cannot be condemned by the law under any circumstances. At best they can condemn by law if someone threatens to kill someone or give away government secrets, NEVER can they do so for cricizing any of the political ideologies laws or even the constituion itself without them being forced back by the 1st amendment, the core principle which guaratees freedom of expression for anyone in public.
No they do it even with only speculations, especially when it comes to islam.
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Read my posts and you'll see that I admit it without shame, when people is involved theres flaws.
Yes of course, and I applaud you for acknowledging that there are flaws. You see, that is the core of Quran Alone. Recognizing that in people there are flaws, in God there is not. If we were to find the true path then we would be, in fact, flawless in our salaat to Allah.
The devout muslims who collected hadith were not ordered by Allah as prophet Muhammed was to receive and convey the Quran. Their work was a result of their love to God and Muhammed. It was an active choice they made, whereas Allah chose Muhammed. In other words, they were people, just like you and me, with flaws. They could not have been absolutely perfect in getting the narrations right, and just like any science is not absolute fact, the science of categorizing hadith is not absolute fact. To say otherwise would be grossly neglecting the nature of man. To say hadiths are absolutely correct is an impossiblilty because they were collected by men and categorized with a science created by man. And we all know men are not flawless, right? Let me stress this point again. There is absolutely no evidence that the collection of hadith was ordained by Allah. It was a result of man wanting to understand the Quran and prophet Muhammed. Therefore, the collections cannot be absolute without a doubt perfect.
So....In the hadith collections there should be at least one hadith that is ruled as reliable which is in fact, not the words of prophet Muhammed or based on islam. One that slipped through the net so to say. But in what category is it lurking? Is it the five pillar? The zakaat? The salaat? Which hadith is the one that will make man follow a path that is not intended?
Quran Alone has the answer. Instead of following something that can never be proven as perfect, follow what is absolute without a doubt perfect. If we find flaws in it, the flaw is in us. If we cannot understand, it is not the words that are difficult, it is our intellect that cannot comprehend.
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Yes of course, and I applaud you for acknowledging that there are flaws. You see, that is the core of Quran Alone. Recognizing that in people there are flaws, in God there is not. If we were to find the true path then we would be, in fact, flawless in our salaat to Allah.
The devout muslims who collected hadith were not ordered by Allah as prophet Muhammed was to receive and convey the Quran. Their work was a result of their love to God and Muhammed. It was an active choice they made, whereas Allah chose Muhammed. In other words, they were people, just like you and me, with flaws. They could not have been absolutely perfect in getting the narrations right, and just like any science is not absolute fact, the science of categorizing hadith is not absolute fact. To say otherwise would be grossly neglecting the nature of man. To say hadiths are absolutely correct is an impossiblilty because they were collected by men and categorized with a science created by man. And we all know men are not flawless, right? Let me stress this point again. There is absolutely no evidence that the collection of hadith was ordained by Allah. It was a result of man wanting to understand the Quran and prophet Muhammed. Therefore, the collections cannot be absolute without a doubt perfect.
So....In the hadith collections there should be at least one hadith that is ruled as reliable which is in fact, not the words of prophet Muhammed or based on islam. One that slipped through the net so to say. But in what category is it lurking? Is it the five pillar? The zakaat? The salaat? Which hadith is the one that will make man follow a path that is not intended?
Quran Alone has the answer. Instead of following something that can never be proven as perfect, follow what is absolute without a doubt perfect. If we find flaws in it, the flaw is in us. If we cannot understand, it is not the words that are difficult, it is our intellect that cannot comprehend.
OF course I follow quran but I also follow hadith because even if you and I agree that it is not perfect, it easy to differentiate the right from the wrong, those who collected it themselves note that the person is not totally reliable or has lyed once. They admit when the hadeeth is munkar (refuted) or dhaif (feeble) etc...
But about the hadeeth I've posted (the 2 speaking and the 3rd sad )), theres alot of others like this who contains wisdom and would be from great advantage for all of us. And like I said god gave you a mind too so use it.
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Can you please quote the aayat like this, as you stated above? I was looking for the same since long
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Mohammed M. KhanNow you found it.
"Say, , "My Lord has ordered justice and that you maintain yourselves at every mosque, and invoke Him, sincere to Him in religion." Just as He originated you, you will return " (729)
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OF course I follow quran but I also follow hadith because even if you and I agree that it is not perfect, it easy to differentiate the right from the wrong, those who collected it themselves note that the person is not totally reliable or has lyed once. They admit when the hadeeth is munkar (refuted) or dhaif (feeble) etc...
But about the hadeeth I've posted (the 2 speaking and the 3rd sad ), theres alot of others like this who contains wisdom and would be from great advantage for all of us. And like I said god gave you a mind too so use it.
So let me ask you, when there is a contradiction between hadith and Quran, which one do you follow?
Of course there is a lot of wisdom in hadith, I would never say otherwise. But the wisdom found is purely FYI. I cannot rely on a hadith to show me the way to understand islam, because what if the person being narrated didn't understand islam in the first place? There is no way to know that the person who heard prophet Muhammed teach actually really understood what the prophet was trying to convey. Eventhough the hadith collectors saw the source as reliable, the source was maybe misunderstood.... Or maybe the source was a complete idiot...... Maybe Muslim or Bukhari had a hidden agenda, who knows? The hadith collectors were all Persians, and they didn't exactly love the Arabs.....If I wanted to destroy my enemy I would strike from inside their ranks.....There is no way to know.....
That is the problem facing mainstream islam today, it uses hadith to make laws about almost everything, it even enters the inner most sanctuary of a married couple, telling them how to make love. I know Badr, you are not like that, but you have to face the fact that the same scholars who are guiding sunnis and shias to the right path also impose rules and laws that has nothing to do with islam. Islam is a system for mankind, it is not supposed say "bad muslim" if you happen to wipe your butt with the wrong hand.
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Peace "Badr",
You call it correcting itself, I call it misleading.
JK- You have to give yourself the benefit of the doubt even viewing the history of "scholars" you accept they all had many differnet opions on one subject. This shows that no one can claim absolute truth and it would be disastrous if someone gets imprisoned or killed just coz of a view which later turns out was correct after all.
I answered the points you stated (wife beating, propaganda, ...) from what sunni/orthodox islam say and you called me a taqiyi/yan/yer = a lyer. Each case is different and theres not a general rule so you can't say all hadith is bad.
JK- I agree each case can be different but with shariah I havnt seen anything that practically makes much sense. ALSO i never said all hadith is bad in mch the same way that no religious scripture or general text written by anyone for that matter is all bad. The pt is it is not relibale enough to portray the details of what are to be our rellgious duties.
Theres so much for us to learn from the prophet and from hadiths like "when three people are together, two of them souldnt whisper between themselves as the third can be saddened".
JK- As I said if any statements in the hadith are backed up with archaelogical evidence, then we can take those hadith into account and say that they, and ONLY those, portray a genuine picture of what actually happened at tht time. Until now we dont have any.
You are totally wrong Islam did promote equality, is indeed a religion of peace and nobody's trying to hide the truth. I don't know who gave you that idea or what people you listened to but you're going the wrong route.
JK- You must have a very confused understanding of equality then. HOW is it equal when a woman cannot do hajj without a Mahram or go out alone more than a certain defined distance without a male mahram(one she cannot marry), or that she has to obey her husband as long as he doesnt command anything against shariah but the reverse need not be the case, or that her husband reserveds the right to beat her, however lightly and with whatever small stick, but she doesnt, or that a woman's witness is HALF that of a man's, or that a woman can only inherit half of that what a man does, or that a woman is curesed by angels if she doesnt please her husband but the reverse is not true, etc etc? HOW is that equality? Next what is peaceful about when you are allowed to use violence to inhibit critique of the system of "islam"? by no definition can this be called peaceful other than your own self made up definition of these terms.
Of course it is according to written sayings and ahadith about the prophet lifetime.
JK- 1st as i said there is no evidence linking them to the Prophet. 2ndly your interpretaions thereof. many "muslims" even understand various hadith differently.
This is the law of god, no need to take a poll.
JK- YOU made the claim that women wont find this embarrassing so I asked lets find out by asking them. ALSO that this is GOD'S law is said by YOUR group of "muslims" NOT GOD Himself. You think He did. At least admit tht much.
I nowhere said its mostly women but we are talking about the women and a particular case that YOU suggested. So dont try to twist it and show yourself like the great women's defender. It's useless, I'm not here to please anyone, I give you the truth if you dont want it and like to call me a liar do as you please I will sleep exactely the same tonight.
JK- I'll defend women whenever I want, wherever I want and however I fel appropriate. IS THT CLEAR? NOW you don't need to please anyone but so far your arguments DO NOT MAKE ANY SENSE and people will judge this by reading our discussion. As for you giving us the truth it makes me laugh. We claim that we are much closer to the Truth than you could ever be.
I will chop his neck ! (just kidding)
I will send him in intensive care. (too)
I will ask the woman to have sex with him when he is tired and not in the mood. (seriously ))
I will cut his dick.
JK- So you will punish him? Ok fine but can you justify that with shariah? I don't think you can because the husband has a right to do so. There is no rule against marital rape in hadith "islam".
;D
This is history man, it's not my personal view, europe only left the dark ages because they were in contact with islam (through Andalusia and the Ottoman empire and all the orientalists etc...).
JK- Didn't I just give you an example as to why this doesn't make sense? At best what codulve happened is that some scientists, who happened to be "Muslims(whether hadith followers or not is not clear)", contributed to the scienctific community in general. Thats it. Nothing to do with shariah. That didnt enlighten anyone and ive explained why CLEARLY.
No they do it even with only speculations, especially when it comes to islam.
JK- GET REAL. hadith "Islam" is currently enjoying the greatest proterction from the governments. They blame anyone who criticizes "islam" coz they say "it can put ppls lifes oin danger". Whilst "muslims" can say anything they like. I know this because there are so many hadith "muslim" grps here who talk loudly on the loudpeakers as well as in the UK shouting they want shariah with all the laws of cutting hands etc included and nobody jails them. Your turning things around here 180 degrees. GOD Bless!
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Is Malcolm X a quran-aloner or does he follow also hadeeth ?
Peace,
with all due Respect.I don't know and I won't answer for his deeds. His religion/deeds to him and mine to me, AlhamdilAllah.
We'll all answer for our own deeds, yes? Therefore, we shouldn't argue/fight over hadeeth. So we disagree over sunnah and hadeeth, let's see where we agree and if we can find common ground, God willing.Peace.
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Now you found it.
"Say, , "My Lord has ordered justice and that you maintain yourselves at every mosque, and invoke Him, sincere to Him in religion." Just as He originated you, you will return " (729)
Again a lie?
Please do not misquote the aayaats. How dare you do that? Don't you fear Allah? 729 never say 'Salaat' in the mosque, even the word 'Salaat' is not used in that aayat.
274
275
274 Then your hearts became hardened after that, they became like stone or even harder; but even from stone there are rivers that burst forth, and from them are those that crack so that the water comes forth, and from them are what descends from concern towards Allah; and Allah is not unaware of what you do.
275 Did you expect that they would believe with you, when a group of them had heard the words of Allah then altered them knowingly after having understood?May Allah forgive us and guide us all towards the correct Path.
Mohammed M. Khan -
Well from a quick catch up here Badr, it seems your comfortable sunni blanket is not quite what you think it is and you don't actually KNOW a lot of what IS taken as law that fatwa are made of. I am surprised, the hadith seem to be like a buffet to you in which you pick as you like at the time then accuse us of using our minds to interpret Quran. ;D You are really only a semi sunni.
At one point in what I have just read you seem to think stoning for adlutery doesn't happen nowadays, obviously you don't keep up on news outside your comfort zone because I hate to tell you yes it IS happening NOW and it is happening because of hadith. Women are being stoned to DEATH, not men, women.
Women are also raped by their husbands and they cannot do anything about it because of hadith. It is LAW in your sharia that a woman cannot refuse her husband at any time whether she wants to or not because of a hadith that says the angels will curse her till morning for upsetting her husband in this particular way.
Young girls are having their sexual organs mutilated in some countries because of a hadith where the prophet said only cut a bit, which is very odd because this practice has not ever been IN Arabia as far as I'm aware and was only performed in parts of Africa, where it still IS, and they think it is Islamic because of that hadith.
You said before that there is 'so much more' well yes there is and we have seen it, read it, studied it, inside out and upside down and come to the conclusion this is NOT Islam but various cultural practices that various people did not want to do away with when Islam came, so they did just like the jews and christians did and incorporated it all saying it was from the prophet and it grew alongside Quran because people like you were not satisfied with Quran and wanted more. You were not satisfied following Allah and needed a human to emulate and worship, sorry but yes copying everthing someone did IS a form of worship.
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So let me ask you, when there is a contradiction between hadith and Quran, which one do you follow?
Quran of course.
Of course there is a lot of wisdom in hadith, I would never say otherwise. But the wisdom found is purely FYI. I cannot rely on a hadith to show me the way to understand islam, because what if the person being narrated didn't understand islam in the first place? There is no way to know that the person who heard prophet Muhammed teach actually really understood what the prophet was trying to convey. Eventhough the hadith collectors saw the source as reliable, the source was maybe misunderstood.... Or maybe the source was a complete idiot...... Maybe Muslim or Bukhari had a hidden agenda, who knows? The hadith collectors were all Persians, and they didn't exactly love the Arabs.....If I wanted to destroy my enemy I would strike from inside their ranks.....There is no way to know.....
hadith collectors are not all persians, where you get this from?
the source is idiot ? most hadiths are by aicha, ibn abbas, abu hureyra and other persons who understands islam better than all of us reunited.
That is the problem facing mainstream islam today, it uses hadith to make laws about almost everything, it even enters the inner most sanctuary of a married couple, telling them how to make love. I know Badr, you are not like that, but you have to face the fact that the same scholars who are guiding sunnis and shias to the right path also impose rules and laws that has nothing to do with islam. Islam is a system for mankind, it is not supposed say "bad muslim" if you happen to wipe your butt with the wrong hand.
what if islam enter the sanctuary of a married couple? johnny was arguin earlier about men that beat their wives, if they would have known hadeeth and learnt how the prophet used to behave with his wives, they wouldnt dare.
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Quran of course.
hadith collectors are not all persians, where you get this from?
Bukhari was Persian, Malik and Muslim were not. the most used hadith today are Bukharithe source is idiot ? most hadiths are by aicha, ibn abbas, abu hureyra and other persons who understands islam better than all of us reunited.
No, they are reported to be from these people by people who had not met them as they were all dead. You really need to read a bit more on dear old 'father of cats' before you sit him on some pedestal, you can find much of it IN hadith of aicha if you don't trust anything else.what if islam enter the sanctuary of a married couple? johnny was arguin earlier about men that beat their wives, if they would have known hadeeth and learnt how the prophet used to behave with his wives, they wouldnt dare.
this is FROM hadith, don't you know these sahih hadith? Don't you know that hell is mostly women, don't you know what nullifies your prayer regarding women and I think it's dogs, don't you know you are commanded to marry a virgin and you can have up to 4 wives for no other reason than that you WANT to because of your God given sexual overdrive?
It is clear enough how to treat a wife in Quran. Anyone with half a brain can figure it out without having to follow some made up garbage attributed to the prophet of God and his companions!
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johnny was arguin earlier about men that beat their wives, if they would have known hadeeth and learnt how the prophet used to behave with his wives, they wouldnt dare.
Are you serious? There are no hadith followers beating their wives? Come on! )
When looking at fatawa, it is actually very interesting to observe how the same scholars who often put ahadeeth over the Qur'an do the opposite when it comes to the issue of wife-beating. They rarely mention the ahadeeth in which the prophet strongly advised people not to beat anyone and that he had very harsh words for men who beat their wifes. Instead, they go on and on about how 434 supposedly allows men to "discipline" their wifes and why.
So it is absolutely wrong to say that if people only followed ahadeeth properly, nobody would beat his wife.
If I take a look at the Qur'an as a whole and how it describes the relationship between spouses, I see that men and women are "friends and supporters of each other", that they are "garments for each other" and that there is "love and mercy between them".
Now it's obvious that beating a wife would certainly not lead to more harmony, peace, protection, love etc., it wouldn't cause an insight or a serious change for the better. Instead, it would lead to fear, suppression, resentment, humiliation and so on. Based on this, I can conclude that beating your wife is very un-Islamic.
So it's not about ahadeeth vs. Qur'an, it's about understanding the whole message and interpreting it with the ideals of justice and fairness in mind.
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http//www.google.com/images?hl=en&expIds=17259,18167,24999,27731,27740,27744,27752,27879&sugexp=gsih&xhr=t&q=masjid&cp=3&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1126&bih=645
You must be kidding...
I asked you about an aayat from AlQuraan... and you came up with the google image search of mosque... ignore
As usual twist with the question asked.
May Allah guide us all towards the correct Path.
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam Badr;
I am wondering how you decide when and when not to kill people for apostasy. The sources of jurisprudence taken from Bukhari whom you respect as Messenger do not indicate
Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Hadith #57
Narrated by ?Ikrima
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this even reached Ibn Abbas who said ?If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them as Allah?s apostle forbade it, saying ?Do not punish anybody with Allah?s punishment (fire).? I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah?s Apostle ?Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him.?
Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Hadith #58
Narrated by Abu Burda
Behold There was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Mu?adh asked ?Who is this (man)?? Abu Musa said ?He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.? Then Abu Musa requested Mu?adh to sit down, but Mu?adh said ?I will not sit down ?til he has been killed. This is the judgement of Allah and his Apostle (for such cases),? and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed.
(The fettered man must have been a threat?)
Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Hadith #64
Narrated by Ali
Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah?s Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a hadith) then indeed it was a trick (i.e. I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah?s Apostle saying ?During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats and they will leave their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have their reward on the Day of Resurrection.?
Bukhari Volume 9, Book 83, Hadith #17
Narrated by Abdullah
Allah?s Apostle said ?The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped besides Allah and that I am his Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases in Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (commits apostasy) and leaves the Muslims.?
I agree with Ayisha
"What has happened to you? How do you judge? Or have you a book wherein you read, that you have surely therein what you choose?"
Qur'an 6836-7
Khuda hafiz
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I am also unsure how you reconclile hadithian jurisprudence with the Qur'an
Muslim 680
The Prophet said "When an unmarried couple fornicate they should receive one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. In the cases of a married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death. If one of the pair is unmarried they shall receive one hundred lashes and exile for a year.
Muslim 682
The Prophet said "Do not stone the adulteress who is pregnant until she has had her child." After the birth she was put into a ditch up to her chest and the Prophet commanded them to stone her. Khalid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and he cursed her. The gentle Prophet prayed over her and she was buried.
Hadith Malik 4931520
Ma'iz bin Malik came to Abu Bakr and said "I am a base fellow for I have committed adultery." Abu Bakr replied "Repent before the Lord and tell no one else." The man still felt guilty and went to Umar who gave him the same reply. Still feeling guilty he went to the Prophet who asked if he was ill or mad, married or single. On hearing that Ma'iz was healthy and married, the Prophet ordered him to be stoned to death.
Khuda hafiz
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Quran of course.
hadith collectors are not all persians, where you get this from?
Sorry, not all. Buhkari was though, and he is the main man, correct?
the source is idiot ? most hadiths are by aicha, ibn abbas, abu hureyra and other persons who understands islam better than all of us reunited.
Ayisha didn't live 200 years, nor did any of the original muslims. What do you know about the people of the generations between Ayisha and Bukhari. You trust them as you trust Allah?
what if islam enter the sanctuary of a married couple? johnny was arguin earlier about men that beat their wives, if they would have known hadeeth and learnt how the prophet used to behave with his wives, they wouldnt dare.
Look, I am not arguing about hadith here, I am arguing about hadith being a tool for scholars to make rules for things that has nothing to do with islam. I am not talking about serious matters that actually can be traced to the Quran, like wife-beating. I am talking about the scholars using hadith to TELL people how to make rules about things that they should stay away from, for example lovemaking. To get authority in their statements and sex guidance they use Allah, declaring that what they say is divine and authorized by Allah or Muhammed, which is sooo wrong. Do you really think it is OK for a scholar to tell a believing muslim that when he has sex with his wife it is better to do it under a blanket, or oral sex is bad for your teeth? It is ridicilous.....How can anyone take a scholar like that seriously? Again, I must say to you that I am not directing this towards you personally Badr, but the fact is that you defend sunni at the moment which means you are defending all sunni.
;D You are really only a semi sunni.
Badr, I second Ayisha statement. And you must see it as a good thing, because that makes you not following the sunni path blindly.