Please give,an ayat stating otherwise, 43:44,idris,nabi,idol
-
Peace be upon you MZ,
i checked your trans of the ayat is somewhat mistranslated-in accordance with the dictionary(Q.d)
The translation I posted was the literal one done by the father and daughter team. I only posted it to show a different perspective. I might very well be incorrect.
If i could remember the ayat ,where it is said he will die like any other,will you then turn on your heals or something to the effect.
So if Allah himself said the prophet will die,and he is dead ,How to you is he with us.
Yes, the God asks us if the "messenger" (not Prophet/nabi) dies will we turn back. This verse, in my understanding, helps us not to rely on others, but to keep up our studies ourselves. This is a universal message. Anyone who passes the message on to you is a messenger. I do not take this as a specific statement regarding a man named "ahmad/muhammad", bcause the God could have easily said "if Ahmad/Muhammad dies will you turn back?", but the God uses "messenger". Musa could have applied that verse to the one who he met where the two rivers meet. We can all apply this to the ones we regard as being very knowledgeable here on this forum. In fact, what if Layth were to pass away and Free- Minds site was to go down, would we turn back from our persistent studies? This is the how I understand that verse.
Regarding his people
Kaum is the word used,this is translated as Nation,tribe party,some people.
Could be the tribe he was of the quraish,or anyone else who would follow him,i think.
Yes, I once thought that way as well and I can understand how you come to that conclusion, but I always keep in mind that the God wants mankind to be as it once was, one community, before it became divided into sects and started warring against each other, race upon race, religion upon religion, etc.
To me its irrespective beacause the quran was only in arabic and only arabic people could have understood it when the prophet was there,and only those of them who where present and around him.
If only Arab people could understand this message then, what makes it different now?
But i think may be you see the prophet somewhat differently?
Yes. I take a prophet to be one who has reached a level of study and observation of the God's signs that he can intuit a certain understanding that others have not come across before, or in a very long time. Anyone who passes this information on to other is called a messenger, including a book.
-
Salaams idol free,
A very good point ,if i may say so, you have brought out.To me anyway there is just one messenger allah is talking to ,and not me or others who may be passing on the message - if you think that is not whats happening ,that the person allah is talking to in some ayats where he is specifying as the messenger or the prophet or muhammad or ahmed is not one and the same - then in your word ,where is the proof.
But one thing i disagree with strongly,we musn't start to imagine things other then what allah has said litterally,beacause he has made the quran simple easy to understand and follow ,we shouldn't start to dream up other then what he is specifying.Its just that we havn't translated it right.
Thanks.
-
Peace be upon you Mz,
A very good point ,if i may say so, you have brought out.
To me anyway there is just one messenger allah is talking to ,and not me or others who may be passing on the message
To me, the one whom the reading is addressed to is ANYONE who is appreciative (muhammadun) of the God's guidance. The God is addressing a certian character type, not a person. If the God was speaking to a man named "ahmad/muhammad", then how does that man named "ahmad/muhammad" understand the verse you mentioned regarding the messenger dying and turning back on your heels?
- if you think that is not whats happening ,that the person allah is talking to in some ayats where he is specifying as the messenger or the prophet or muhammad or ahmed is not one and the same - then in your word ,where is the proof.
In order for me to provide my proofs, I would need you to tell me which verses belong where. What I mean is, tell me which verses you think are for mankind in general, and which ones are for this man named "ahmad/muhammad' in specific. I would be happy to provide what I can of proofs so you can respond to them.
But one thing i disagree with strongly,we musn't start to imagine things other then what allah has said litterally,beacause he has made the quran simple easy to understand and follow ,we shouldn't start to dream up other then what he is specifying.Its just that we havn't translated it right.
I agree, so lets continue discussing this throuroughly.
-
Salaams idolfree,
to me the verses where for Muhammad and his people 1400 years ago,thats why you have ships sailing in the quran because thats how they moved and only Allah could tell what was in the women ,males or females -children but you can easily tell these days yourself or even choose what sex child you would want e.t.cSecondly Allah is talking through Muhammad the whole of the quraan(isn't he),whether he is saying something about people in general or directly to Muhammad.
If you want consider 4342-46,
Think of Muhammad reciting them,or yourself ,or a monk or mullah or someone about to be hanged or others in a similer fashion.
And 93-9
Thanks.
-
Peace be upon you MZ,
Thank you for continuing patiently with me as we discuss this throughly
to me the verses where for Muhammad and his people 1400 years ago,thats why you have ships sailing in the quran because thats how they moved and only Allah could tell what was in the women ,males or females -children but you can easily tell these days yourself or even choose what sex child you would want e.t.c
Yes, I am not debating that this book that humans have titled "the Quran" was written a long time ago, before airplanes, etc. I am debating that this message is NOT STUCK back in that time period, or stuck to a particular SECT (SECTion) of people.
Secondly Allah is talking through Muhammad the whole of the quraan(isn't he),whether he is saying something about people in general or directly to Muhammad.
The God is speaking through a man who was appreciative(muhammadun) of the God's guidance, I do not know what that mans name was, I only see him being addressed as "messenger" or "prophet" which are character traits. If they were not character triats, then I see no reason why this mans name was not used in each and every instance. I beleieve it is left like that to show us that it is US that the God is talking to us. We are the children of Isreal, WE are Ibrahim, Musa, Isa, etc. As well as those before us were.
If you want consider 4342-46,
Think of Muhammad reciting them,or yourself ,or a monk or mullah or someone about to be hanged or others in a similer fashion.
(4342-46) Or We show you/make you understand what We promised them, so We are on them, We are capable/over powering. So hold fast/grasp with what was inspired to you, that you are on a straight/direct path. And that it truly is a reminder to you and to your nation, and you will/shall be asked/questioned. And ask whom We sent from before you from Our messengers, did We make/create from other than the merciful gods (that) they are being served? And We had sent Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his nobles, so he (Moses) said "Truly I am messenger (of) the Lord of creation."
I do not know who "Muhammad" is in order for me to properly think of him saying that, but I can CERTAINLY see the God taliking directly to me and every other person in this world.
Regarding these verses, how would this man named "ahmad/muhammad" ask/question the messengers before him? This cannot be literal, and I feel that is why the God goes on to talk about Musa.
And 93-9
If we understand salaat to consist of reciting this reading(quran), then we will all be saying that from time to time. I see no reason to think that it is specific to one man named "ahmad/muhammad". I see no convincing evidence.
I do agree that THIS READING, the one that humans have titled "the Quran" was inspired to and written by a man a long time ago, but I disagree that his name was "ahmad/muhammad", we are not told his name because it is a universal message. It is the same reason we are not told the name of the teacher of Musa. We all have people who will come help us achieve the higher levels, we must be patient with them.
Please give me your views.
-
Salaams idolfree,
Part of the book will allways be stuck in the past becase it has instructions for them which where for that time period - if you don't know how to find them then may be i can point them for your understanding.
As you couldn't comprehend these
4344-45.
...........And you will be quistioned.
And ask those of our messengers.............to me this is so comprehensible-Allah is saying "you will be quistioned ",this is same as Jesus will also be quistioned "did you tell them to take you and your mother as gods" or something like that,"And ask those of our messengers whom we sent befor you""Did we ever appoint alihah to be worshiped besides the most gracious?"
Allah is saying you will be given the opurtunity to ask the previous messengers about their message whether we had told them to worship others besides the God.
Obvously this is on Judgement day from the context-as i see.
Again i cannot comprehend muhammad,ahmed,messenger,prophet other then being one and the same person, and he did exist about 1400 years ago and he did recieve this glorious Quran which the so called keepers of the religeon did manage to corrupt-this is the translation only and the practical aspeacts of this religeon.
The quran talks to the man and sometimes may be in general terms those who where around him.May be about them or the creation or even the day of judgment or the past e.t.c
Just a general comment not specifically at any one-with respects.
I am still hopeful people here who transgress ,by thinking God is talking about them being messengers as such;For God sake provide proof.
God bless.
-
peace all,
wasn't sure what this convo was about until I read down more, so basically to sum it up, does God's book contain some verses that were only applicable for the messenger and his followers or is it completely timeless and every single verse of it directed to mankind, I agree with idolfree on this, I don't see the reasoning in God sending stagnant verses ONLY applicable to the one delivering the message and his followers, but lets say there are verses that seem to be only applicable to the messenger, the fact that we are supposed to follow the example of the messenger would negate the excuse that we shouldn't follow them, so to me every single command/example/etc. can be put to use by anybody
P.S.-mz, I'm debating some Christian named Apple Pie in the Christianity forum based on whether sura 86 is talking about Jesus and proclaims his divinity or not, I need somebody like you with good access to a dictionary to come in there and silence his unQuranic translation and biased interpretations http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2242&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
peace
-
Salaam family,
I hope you all will allow me to add my two cents.
After reading the entire conversation, I'm going to have to agree with Kyle on this one. I don't believe we would be approaching the message correctly if we say on the one hand that it is meant for all of humanity and then on the other hand say that it is only addressing Muhammad and those around him.
I believe that one way we can tell if GOD is addressing a certain person or a certain group of people is when He specifically addresses them by name or title. Such as the verse where GOD says "Oh prophet, why do you prohibit the good things that GOD has made permissible..." in which case He is definately addressing the prophet alone. Then there are the verses where GOD starts of by saying "Oh believers" or "Oh people of scripture" in which case He is definately addressing the believers and people of scripture alone and NOT the rejectors and disbelievers.
As of now, this is my understanding on this subject. If anyone feels that there are any incorrect views/interpretations in my understanding, I always appreciate the feedback and criticism.
Peace y'all,
Damon. -
Peace be upon you Idris,
the fact that we are supposed to follow the example of the messenger would negate the excuse that we shouldn't follow them
Excellent point.
MZ,
I just don't see the justification for making the word "messenger" more than what it is. We constantly see the "messengers" saying they are only "men like us", if "they" are like "us", why can't "we" by like "them"?A messenger is one who delivers the message, and we should try to be as clear as possible, that is the only duty regarding the delivery. Don't go beating around the bush (entering from the improper doors).
(1411) Their messengers said to them "Surely we are except humans similar/equal to you, and but The God blesses on whom He wills from His servants, and (it) was not for us that we come to you with a proof/evidence , except with The God's permission , and on The God so should those with faith rely/depend ."
(1794) And what prevented/forbid the people that they believe when the guidance came to them, except that (E) they said "Did The God send a human, messenger?"
(2347) So they said "Do we believe to two humans equal to us , and their nation (are) to us serving?"
It is only unrighteous thoughts (shayteen) that instill fear, at least investigate the subject of "ahmad/muhammad" and see if there is reasonable doubt. Then take it patiently from there. It is a heavy message, at least it is for me, but you are responsible for what you know, so it is best to start spreading the truthful message to your people, the people you come in contact with. Because when you understand that the ENTIRE MESSAGE, NOT A SECTION OF IT, is for YOU, then you must submit to the following;
(2252) Those are The God's signs, We read/recite it on (to) you with the truth , and truly you are from the messengers.
-
Salaam,damon,idris,idolfree,
Br. idris said-this was specifically to the entire creatures or something like this,how unfortunate to me it is entirely the other way but the creation is told/supposed to take advantage of it for the benefit.
I think all of you have mentioned something to this effect,but you are overlooking a number of the ayats in the quran which where specifically orders to the prophet-althogh damon did write one i think.
And Br. Idris i will look into the link you provided.Thanks.
Even in the idols post he has written couple of the ayat from the quran,
1411,
......And not it is for us that we bring you an authority except by the permission of Allah...."
He has the permision here-whereis your proofs?
1711,
"........Did send Allah...."
Who here is sent by Allah?
Apart from this I will recommand you all read Sura 9,before further diologue as it would indeed i think gives a clearer understanding who Allah with his infinit wisdom is talking to.
If you still need need other ayats then indeed i will find them-from the quran.
My Salaams to all.Thanks.
-
Salaams,idolfree,idris,damon,
one thing i missed.
Why it wasn't sent to the entire human race1,Their are instruction for Mohammad to carry out -which applied only 1400 years ago to what was happening then ,sura 9,and lots of other ayates.
2,The timings for fasting and salaat e.t.c don't apply all over the globe.
I have noticed people in all advanced countries do do salaat,i wonder if you know what you call it ,where you live!3,The quran came in Arabic as their lingo was arabic if it was to every one,i mean aimed at people all over the world-you would be able to understand it too And you wouldn't need confusing translations.
Although it came for and to the arabs or the prophet and the people around him ,Allah hasn't put a full stop so anybody can benefit by applying it to their lifes where ever they may be.
Allah said he has sent messengers to all nations ,so it doesn't mean you where ever,havn't recieved a messenger,its just you may not call such people in your own countries mssengers,but you must have recieved them because allah is saying he sent them to all nations/peoples.
Salaams to all.
-
Peace be upon you MZ,
1411,
......And not it is for us that we bring you an authority except by the permission of Allah...."
He has the permision here-whereis your proofs?
Who has permission here? A man named "ahmad/muhammad" that you never met? Further, a messenger only delivers the message, you should be doing the same. This is not a new message, it is the same message that all the messengers deliver. There is no God except the One God. That should be enough proof wink
Let me just further clarify this concept for you, since "messengership" is a characteristic, it only applies at the time you are delivering the message. It is not a title, it is a description. So again, when you deliver the message, you are a messenger.
1711,
"........Did send Allah...."
Who here is sent by Allah?
Thats an easy question, ALL OF US. Do you disagree?
Apart from this I will recommand you all read Sura 9,before further diologue as it would indeed i think gives a clearer understanding who Allah with his infinit wisdom is talking to.
If the God is not talking to you, then why do you bother to read it?
If you still need need other ayats then indeed i will find them-from the quran.
Yes, please do.
one thing i missed.
Why it wasn't sent to the entire human raceThis message, the same message from the beginning of time, IS sent to the entire human race. The God's signs are everywhere.
1,Their are instruction for Mohammad to carry out -which applied only 1400 years ago to what was happening then ,sura 9,and lots of other ayates.
Please give me some examples of instructions that wre only for a man named "ahmad/muhammad".
2,The timings for fasting and salaat e.t.c don't apply all over the globe.
I have noticed people in all advanced countries do do salaat,i wonder if you know what you call it ,where you live!learning process.
3,The quran came in Arabic as their lingo was arabic if it was to every one,i mean aimed at people all over the world-you would be able to understand it too And you wouldn't need confusing translations.
So the non arabs should just give up, is that what you mean? Even Arab speaking people argue over meanings of verses.
Although it came for and to the arabs or the prophet and the people around him ,Allah hasn't put a full stop so anybody can benefit by applying it to their lifes where ever they may be.
You have no proof to support that.
Allah said he has sent messengers to all nations ,so it doesn't mean you where ever,havn't recieved a messenger,its just you may not call such people in your own countries mssengers,but you must have recieved them because allah is saying he sent them to all nations/peoples.
The messengers continue to come.
-
Salaams idolfree,
its very easy to get out of situations but thats not i think why we debate here.I pointed sura 9 who is Allah commanding there,if you think he is telling us to do all them things please tel me how you plan to go about that.
And as i said there are plenty of other places where allah told his messenger to do things ,then.
From your own ayats Allah says he chooses his messengers ,
As you choose who your employees will be -unfortunately your emploees cannot choose ,You may let them or you may not let them.I am saddened why such a simple understanding is so complicated.If i am not understanding it please explain.
Thanks.
-
Peace be upon you Mz,
its very easy to get out of situations but thats not i think why we debate here.
What are you talking about?
I pointed sura 9 who is Allah commanding there,if you think he is telling us to do all them things please tel me how you plan to go about that.
All what things? Please point to a particular verse on chapter 9 that we can focus on.
And as i said there are plenty of other places where allah told his messenger to do things ,then.
But you have yet to give me a solid example, please provide one so we discuss this in more detail.
From your own ayats Allah says he chooses his messengers ,
As you choose who your employees will be -unfortunately your emploees cannot choose ,You may let them or you may not let them.Okay, the God chooses messengers. If you do what you are suppossed to do, you will be chosen. The God is fair and just. The laws run by cause and effect. You reap what you sow. The messengers are humans like us.
I am saddened why such a simple understanding is so complicated.If i am not understanding it please explain.
Please provide the verses that are only for a man named "ahmad/muhammad" that none of us were witness to.
-
Salaams idolfree,
81
They ask you about the spoils of war."The spoils of war are for allah and the messenger"......
Okay what is this all about which war have or are you involved in?
91
Freedom of obligation from allah and his messenger ............
So what treaty have you or anyone else here made,with allah,with the mushreqeen?And did Allah speak to you whan you both made the treaty with the said mushreqeen?
I can,t understand why you can't see what i am trying to open to you idolfree.
All these ayats arn't about anyone but the messenger who god chose about 1400 years past.
If you do anything and everything it doesn't mean a thing -Allah may choose you or he may not that is up to him.You or anyone else for that matter musn't assume if you do certain things Allah will choose you for a messengership,it doesn't work like that If you think it does Show us where it says so
Salaams..
-
Peace be upon you,
81
They ask you about the spoils of war."The spoils of war are for allah and the messenger"......
Okay what is this all about which war have or are you involved in?
What war do you associate it with? Someone that you have no clue about? If war happens, the answer is there for us. What is so difficult about that?
If the God is talking directly to some man named "ahmad/muhammad", then why doesn't He address the man by name? Why does he speak of the "messenger" in third person? Why doesn't he say "the spoils are for Me and You"? These are all very valid questions. Have you considered them? Can you answer them?
91
Freedom of obligation from allah and his messenger ............
So what treaty have you or anyone else here made,with allah,with the mushreqeen?And did Allah speak to you whan you both made the treaty with the said mushreqeen?
Where you witness to the event when "ahmad/muhammad" made a treaty with the God? How does it make sense to you for a man you have never met, but you cannot reason the very same idea for today, for yourself?
I can,t understand why you can't see what i am trying to open to you idolfree.
All these ayats arn't about anyone but the messenger who god chose about 1400 years past.
You have yet to prove that, further, what evidence besides the words of this book would you have to back this up? We are not here to accept a blind faith, we are here to recieve guidance. Do we only follow a portion of the book, or the whole book?
If you do anything and everything it doesn't mean a thing -Allah may choose you or he may not that is up to him.You or anyone else for that matter musn't assume if you do certain things Allah will choose you for a messengership,it doesn't work like that If you think it does Show us where it says so
I can not understand how the law of cause and effect escapes you. It works in everything that you can think of. I urge you to ponder further on the creation as we are constantly told to do.
As I come across more information, I will share it, until then, Peace.