"Badr" in this thread I'd like to ask you some questions that come to my mind!

Alen

We are not going to settle it like that as we are not agreeing on the obligation to follow hadeeth in the origin of the discussion, some of these questions have a response on the Quran but most not. My point is that the Quran is the main source (constitution) and we must refer to the hadeeth for the details (different laws) but you are doubting the valuability of the hadeeth as a source. These are very relevant questions and I think every muslim have to ask them one day or another but if you don't find an answer in the quran you have to look elsewhere, what other source do you have ? who can tell you how to pray for example ? the prophet who recieved the revelation would be the most able to answer you but he isnt here anymore, we still have his legacy tho.

God said "Those who follow the Apostle-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful."

1-Where do you classify smoke ? good things ? if not it is unlawful. (I answered this question because theres not a direct answer in the quran nor the hadeeth, you better make up your mind to find an answer from one of the sources)

2-also this verse enjoins you to follow what the ummi prophet prescribed. I know you will tell me what he said is the quran but I'm convinced theres more and I assume that the wisdom who accompagny quran in alot of verses are the sayings and the deeds of the prophet that we call Sunna of the prophet indeed coming from the sunna of God as stated in this verse "Such has been the course of Allah that has indeed run before, and you shall not find a change in Allah's course." ("Course" in the arabic version of the Quran is "Sunna&quot.

3-Also, if you doubt what arrived to you from hadeeth fearing to go against Allah's will, the burden is on those who transmitted it, you will be judged according to your own deeds.

Salaam,
Respectfully.

I see. Let's go then.
First of all, I see several verses in The Qur'an that tell me clearly not to follow hadeeth by Bukhary & co. Okay? Thank God Who has guided me on The Straight Way, subhanAllah.
7185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrative after this one will they believe?
316 And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative with which to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.
3923 God has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is similar, dual. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.
456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative after God and His revelations do they believe?
5234 Let them produce a narrative like this, if they are truthful.
6844 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative; We will entice them from where they do not perceive.
7750 So in what narrative, after it, will they believe?

Also
6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?

6938 So I do swear by what you see.
6939 And what you do not see.
6940 This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
6941 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
6942 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
6943 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.

to be concluded ....

Alen

.... being concluded ....

6114 Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

Even though I disagree with Rashad Khalifa on many things, this is his silver bullet against people who follow other books besides The Qur'an

http//submission.org/dozen.html

We all agree that there are weak hadeeth from the books of Bukhary and Muslim and Abu Baqr and Dawood and so on and there are strong hadith and so on and on, right?
You can never say the same about Quranic verses - they are all, ALL STRONG. You will never hear a weak verse from The Qur'an. Entire Qur'an works all the time until the Last Day.
With hadeeth from men this is not the case eventually, we discover a lie in there.

There are at least three hadeeth that strongly contradict Allah SWT.

I leave with you Quran and Sunnah, Muwatta, 46/3
I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt , Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.
I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

Now let's see ayya from The Qur'an, from Allah SWT

5234 Let them produce a narrative like this, if they are truthful.

Let them!
Yeah, I know, they can't.
No one can produce a hadeeth like The Qur'an.
Quran is THE BEST narrative, best hadeth, that is if you still remember 3923, brother.

Who teaches me The Qur'an? I'd say It's Author - Allah SWT. Muhammad was a prophet and a messenger. Not God's assistant. remember what christians have made Jesus to God? His son. Glory be to Allah SWT, Allah is Exalted and High above what they say. SubhanAllah.

The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the Muslims.

.... to be continued ....

Alen

.... being continued ....

As I mentioned before, the prayer is described in The Qur'an, you just need to search for it, that is, if you want to, no one has the right to force you and no one can simply input/implement the knowledge into your head, you should ask Allah SWT to increase you in knowledge and ask Him for the sabr, trust me on this one, God knows BEST.

Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

See, in chapter 4, verse 82, it says why don't they study The Qur'an carefully? It does not say why don't they study The Qur'an and some Bible and when they get the time few hadeeth. No. It says also if it was from other then Allah SWT, and hadeeth Bukhary is from a man named Bukhary, right, then yeah, like Allah SWT says, you would found in it numerous contradictions.
Guess what?
I did!
I found several contyradictions!
I have found contradicting hadeeth with other hadeeth, with The Qur'aan and I don't like it. Therefore, hadeeth by men fall off.
Bye-bye.

Exactly! Follow the messenger, follow the prophet, obey the messenger or obey the prophet, it never says obey or follow Moses or Muhammad or Noah. Never by the name when it comes to obediance. There is a difference when it comes to obeying a messenger Muhammad and obeying Muhammad, see what I mean? Messenger Muhammad is The Messenger because of The Message, right? Muhammad is the man, a citizen of Arabia, a huasband, a salesman, a neighbour and so on. We have people today named Muhammad but they are not messengers, yes?

My friend, brother, Allah SWT is SO Merciful, He is The MOST Merciful that He The Most Wise leaves many decisions to us. He tells us not to eat blood, pork and so on but we can eat all fruit and vegetables, right? Some people don't like exotic fruit. My grandfather did not like exotic fruit but he did not prohibit it to himself, he simply did not like it, since he lived most his life in the village in Bosnia. He was not use to bananas and kiwi and such. He gave it to me and therefore earned himself a good deed.

If you don't like aubergines, then you don't have to eat it, see, I love them and love combining them with mashed potatoes. Prophet and messenger Muhammad did not eat certain type of food, God knows BEST and that does not mean that I will do the same. He also did not have a cell phone like me or access to this internet. Should I live in the desert?

I hope you see my point. God willing.

I hope you will read chapter 68 and 69 very carefully. If the messenger Muhammad said any other teachings but The Qur'an, God says He would cut Muhammad's wateen. That's very direct. In fact, I will say this as a person, citizen, husband, father, ... Muhammad can say whatever he wants and he did. But as a messenger of God and a seal of the prophets, he is allowed to speak ONLY The Qur'an. Had he said something else, he'd be dead. Like if he said some hadeeth narrated by this ONE MAN who apparently did not remember 2282.

Peace.

Badr

Salaam,
Respectfully.

I see. Let's go then.
First of all, I see several verses in The Qur'an that tell me clearly not to follow hadeeth by Bukhary & co. Okay? Thank God Who has guided me on The Straight Way, subhanAllah.
7185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrative after this one will they believe?
316 And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative with which to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.
3923 God has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is similar, dual. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.
456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative after God and His revelations do they believe?
5234 Let them produce a narrative like this, if they are truthful.
6844 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative; We will entice them from where they do not perceive.
7750 So in what narrative, after it, will they believe?

Also
6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?

6938 So I do swear by what you see.
6939 And what you do not see.
6940 This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
6941 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
6942 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
6943 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line.
6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.

6114 Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

These verses are directed to a whole lot of different people and for a whole lot of situations, don't you know the book has been revealed gradually ? it came to correct mistakes and some verses are there for certain situations that occured in the lifetime of the prophet (example the Zaid episode, the battle of Badr, Abu Lahab etc etc...). Of course you are relying on quran only so you don't know wich verse is directed to whom or what or why. What you are citing can be for the disbelievers, the hypocrites (al munafiquun), the people of the book etc...

Even though I disagree with Rashad Khalifa on many things, this is his silver bullet against people who follow other books besides The Qur'an

http//submission.org/dozen.html

First, when it comes to books in the Quran it is strictly for the holy books (ie people of the book). Second, I also disagree with someone who claims to be a perophet).

We all agree that there are weak hadeeth from the books of Bukhary and Muslim and Abu Baqr and Dawood and so on and there are strong hadith and so on and on, right?
You can never say the same about Quranic verses - they are all, ALL STRONG. You will never hear a weak verse from The Qur'an. Entire Qur'an works all the time until the Last Day.

Ok so what's the problem in following strong hadith ?

With hadeeth from men this is not the case eventually, we discover a lie in there.

There are at least three hadeeth that strongly contradict Allah SWT.

I leave with you Quran and Sunnah, Muwatta, 46/3
I leave with you Quran and Ahl al-bayt , Muslim 44/4, Nu2408; ibn hanbal 4/366; darimi 23/1, nu 3319.
I leave for you the Quran alone you shall uphold it. Muslim 15/19, nu 1218; ibn Majah 25/84, Abu dawud 11/56.

Where are the contradictions ; he leaves with us the quran as a main source, he also leaves the sunna to follow and the ahl al bayt to take care of (this is dedicated to those who lived in their lifetime tho).

Now let's see ayya from The Qur'an, from Allah SWT

5234 Let them produce a narrative like this, if they are truthful.

Let them!
Yeah, I know, they can't.
No one can produce a hadeeth like The Qur'an.
Quran is THE BEST narrative, best hadeth, that is if you still remember 3923, brother.

Of course they can't and they're not supposed to. Hadeeth is a narration, a human narration of what the prophet said or did. This is not a divine book.

Who teaches me The Qur'an? I'd say It's Author - Allah SWT. Muhammad was a prophet and a messenger. Not God's assistant. remember what christians have made Jesus to God? His son. Glory be to Allah SWT, Allah is Exalted and High above what they say. SubhanAllah.

The prophet also teached quran, do you think he wasnt able to ? of course he is like all nabi were capables of teaching the previous books let alone the fact that he was revealed one.

The day will come when we will raise from every community a witness from among them, and bring you as the witness of these people. We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance, and mercy, and good news for the Muslims.

As I mentioned before, the prayer is described in The Qur'an, you just need to search for it, that is, if you want to, no one has the right to force you and no one can simply input/implement the knowledge into your head, you should ask Allah SWT to increase you in knowledge and ask Him for the sabr, trust me on this one, God knows BEST.

All what have been revealed by the quran regarding the prayer is in the teachings of the prophet Muhammad, theres no contradiction. If he have been brought something less or in opposition of what is in the quran you can have doubts but he teached the same with addings that have been revealed to him. Like I said in another thread, the quran is the constitution and the sunna is the law. If a law is in contradiction with the constitution it can be abolished but if it is not, you have to accept it and follow it.

Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.

See, in chapter 4, verse 82, it says why don't they study The Qur'an carefully? It does not say why don't they study The Qur'an and some Bible and when they get the time few hadeeth. No. It says also if it was from other then Allah SWT, and hadeeth Bukhary is from a man named Bukhary, right, then yeah, like Allah SWT says, you would found in it numerous contradictions.
Guess what?
I did!
I found several contyradictions!
I have found contradicting hadeeth with other hadeeth, with The Qur'aan and I don't like it. Therefore, hadeeth by men fall off.
Bye-bye.

Like I said if it contradicts leave it if not follow it.

Exactly! Follow the messenger, follow the prophet, obey the messenger or obey the prophet, it never says obey or follow Moses or Muhammad or Noah. Never by the name when it comes to obediance. There is a difference when it comes to obeying a messenger Muhammad and obeying Muhammad, see what I mean? Messenger Muhammad is The Messenger because of The Message, right? Muhammad is the man, a citizen of Arabia, a huasband, a salesman, a neighbour and so on. We have people today named Muhammad but they are not messengers, yes?

Look for the context and then you can easily learn who God is talking to.

My friend, brother, Allah SWT is SO Merciful, He is The MOST Merciful that He The Most Wise leaves many decisions to us. He tells us not to eat blood, pork and so on but we can eat all fruit and vegetables, right? Some people don't like exotic fruit. My grandfather did not like exotic fruit but he did not prohibit it to himself, he simply did not like it, since he lived most his life in the village in Bosnia. He was not use to bananas and kiwi and such. He gave it to me and therefore earned himself a good deed.

If you don't like aubergines, then you don't have to eat it, see, I love them and love combining them with mashed potatoes. Prophet and messenger Muhammad did not eat certain type of food, God knows BEST and that does not mean that I will do the same. He also did not have a cell phone like me or access to this internet. Should I live in the desert?

I hope you see my point. God willing.

I like aubergines ;D

I hope you will read chapter 68 and 69 very carefully. If the messenger Muhammad said any other teachings but The Qur'an, God says He would cut Muhammad's wateen. That's very direct. In fact, I will say this as a person, citizen, husband, father, ... Muhammad can say whatever he wants and he did. But as a messenger of God and a seal of the prophets, he is allowed to speak ONLY The Qur'an. Had he said something else, he'd be dead. Like if he said some hadeeth narrated by this ONE MAN who apparently did not remember 2282.

Peace.

His wateen did not be cut so it says it all.

Alen

Salaam.

Badr, only Allah can teach His Own Book. 552.
Only The Qur'an is The BEST hadeeth. 3923.

Brother, when you say something about The Qur'an, you should really quote a verse from it, so that no one can accuse you that you're just stating an opinion of yours. No disrespect.

Since we both agree that hadeeth by men are not divine, let's not follow non-divine material, what do you say?

This is your BIGGEST problem ever
You Badr said this" Like I said if it contradicts leave it if not follow it. "
Correct?
If you said if it contradicts, leave it, if not, follow it?????
Are you serious?
You're for real, aren't ya?
Brother, then, I'll say this if you read in The Bible smite them all, men, women and children, don't leave anything that breathes, then that means that all christians are preparing exterminating war against us all and we should prepare ourselves to defend our lives and homes, right?
No.
Wrong, brother.
If I say whatever, it may be wrong, remember, Allah SWT knows BEST.
I don't know.
Bukhary doesn't know/didn't know.
"Muslim" didn't/doesn't know.
Abu Baqr didn't/doesn't know.
No human knows unless and until Allah SWT gives him that knowledge, God willing, God Knows BEST.
I had no idea I will be living here in London, when I was 7. Though, I remember that time now. I was in school, learning how to read & write, Thank God.

Allah SWT is The Judge, He judges and He will decide what we will follow/obey, inshaAllah.
Allah SWT decides to guide people and He alone guides whomever He decides, Allah SWT knows BEST.

Glory be to God.
Peace.

Badr

Salaam.

Badr, only Allah can teach His Own Book. 552.
Only The Qur'an is The BEST hadeeth. 3923.

Brother, when you say something about The Qur'an, you should really quote a verse from it, so that no one can accuse you that you're just stating an opinion of yours. No disrespect.

You want me to comment on 21 verses with their contexts and the reasons of their revelation and then you'll tell me no this is not Quran so this is not true ? open a tafsir book and you'll find by yourself.

Example 5234 was directed to the non believers of Qureish who claimed that Muhammad is a prophet and he will loose of his popularity and maybe die like two previous famous pre-islamic poets who are Zuhair and Al Nabigha.

Since we both agree that hadeeth by men are not divine, let's not follow non-divine material, what do you say?

This is your BIGGEST problem ever
You Badr said this" Like I said if it contradicts leave it if not follow it. "
Correct?
If you said if it contradicts, leave it, if not, follow it?????
Are you serious?
You're for real, aren't ya?

I am 4 real not a bot, don't worry.

I was saying this about one hadith not the whole sunna or the collection of hadiths.

for example if there's a hadith that says that you can make salaat without wudu it clearly contradicts the quran, so leave it.

Brother, then, I'll say this if you read in The Bible smite them all, men, women and children, don't leave anything that breathes, then that means that all christians are preparing exterminating war against us all and we should prepare ourselves to defend our lives and homes, right?
No.
Wrong, brother.
If I say whatever, it may be wrong, remember, Allah SWT knows BEST.
I don't know.
Bukhary doesn't know/didn't know.
"Muslim" didn't/doesn't know.
Abu Baqr didn't/doesn't know.
No human knows unless and until Allah SWT gives him that knowledge, God willing, God Knows BEST.
I had no idea I will be living here in London, when I was 7. Though, I remember that time now. I was in school, learning how to read & write, Thank God.

Allah SWT is The Judge, He judges and He will decide what we will follow/obey, inshaAllah.
Allah SWT decides to guide people and He alone guides whomever He decides, Allah SWT knows BEST.

Glory be to God.
Peace.

They don't know as allah knows but they did what was possible in their time (they did not have record machines nor video nor computers to do better than what they did) to relate to us how did the prophet lived.

Alen

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

Bro, during my time in Leicester, I performed ablution exactly as God tells us in The Qur'an and the guy next to me started nodding his head saying no, no, no, no.
Later on I got banned from ever entering that mosque, written notification.

Why is it that when I perform an ablution according to The Qur'an, I get banned from the mosque but if I did it according to the hadeeth books, I'd be accepted? Would I be accepted then as a muslim?

That's some weird stuff, man.
I just don't get it.
By the way, there is a verse in The Qur'an that you should ponder over

2533
English
Progressive Muslims 2533 And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation.
Arabic
Original Text 2533

No disrespect, bro.
Come back.
Peace.

Badr

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

Bro, during my time in Leicester, I performed ablution exactly as God tells us in The Qur'an and the guy next to me started nodding his head saying no, no, no, no.
Later on I got banned from ever entering that mosque, written notification.

Why is it that when I perform an ablution according to The Qur'an, I get banned from the mosque but if I did it according to the hadeeth books, I'd be accepted? Would I be accepted then as a muslim?

That's some weird stuff, man.
I just don't get it.
By the way, there is a verse in The Qur'an that you should ponder over

2533
English
Progressive Muslims 2533 And for every example they come to you with, We bring you the truth and the best explanation.
Arabic
Original Text 2533

No disrespect, bro.
Come back.
Peace.

This is insane ! All true sunnis know that you can make ablution as described in the Quran, I do it sometimes too.

Wakas

This is insane ! All true sunnis know that you can make ablution as described in the Quran, I do it sometimes too.

From my experience, this is not the case with most Traditional Muslims. If you did it as Al Quran says, most would think you were doing it incorrectly.

Alen

This is insane ! All true sunnis know that you can make ablution as described in the Quran, I do it sometimes too.

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

Brother, I'm not saying you can't.
I'm just saying that because I don't believe that sunnah and hadeeth are the words and actions of the prophet/messenger Muhammad, I got banned from the mosque. Do you understand what I'm saying?

I would never do that to a sunni, if I built a mosque.
I would challenge him/her.
I see people as intelligent creations.
Few nights ago, couple men stood outside tube with offers to christianity.
If I wasn't in a rush to work, because my income is important now, believe me, I would invite them to a really long conversation. I'd buy them drinks and meals just to keep them inside of a conversation and believe me, I have much more questions then just 21.

No disrespect.
God Bless you.
Peace.

Alen

From my experience, this is not the case with most Traditional Muslims. If you did it as Al Quran says, most would think you were doing it incorrectly.

Salaam.

True.
In fact, at Regent's mosque I'm getting looks for not keeping my hands on my belly during prayer.
Also, for not aiming my right fionger att he sky during the prayer and not giving salaam to the right and left.
I'm getting looks that are not positive.

God Bless ya.
Peace.

simonejamilla

Salam Alen
Don't put yourself in danger Alen. That doesn't sound good at all. This is why we need a place of worship. Inshallah.
Peace and Respect
Simone sun

Badr

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

Brother, I'm not saying you can't.
I'm just saying that because I don't believe that sunnah and hadeeth are the words and actions of the prophet/messenger Muhammad, I got banned from the mosque. Do you understand what I'm saying?

I see, this is insane also.

I would never do that to a sunni, if I built a mosque.
I would challenge him/her.
I see people as intelligent creations.

Not all people are intelligent as you may think it, some are stubborn and stupid. The problem is not all know their religion correctly, they do what they inherited from their parents.

Few nights ago, couple men stood outside tube with offers to christianity.
If I wasn't in a rush to work, because my income is important now, believe me, I would invite them to a really long conversation. I'd buy them drinks and meals just to keep them inside of a conversation and believe me, I have much more questions then just 21.

No disrespect.
God Bless you.
Peace.

I like it too, I spent last night discussing with a christian and an atheist about all that.

Badr

Salaam.

True.
In fact, at Regent's mosque I'm getting looks for not keeping my hands on my belly during prayer.

Also, for not aiming my right fionger att he sky during the prayer and not giving salaam to the right and left.
I'm getting looks that are not positive.

God Bless ya.
Peace.

Alot of people pray with their hand pointing to theground and without their finger to the sky where I go to pray, these are details that don't keep your prayer from beign correct.

Alen

Salam Alen
Don't put yourself in danger Alen. That doesn't sound good at all. This is why we need a place of worship. Inshallah.
Peace and Respect
Simone sun

Salam, sister.

Don't worry, don't worry and thanks for the concern.
Don't worry, I rely on Allah SWT. If I die, I die. I won't really die.
I'd say it's dangerous to let them do what they do.
By the way, I'm already working on a place of worship, God willing, Glory be to God.

Peace and Respect to all.

Alen

I see, this is insane also.
Not all people are intelligent as you may think it, some are stubborn and stupid. The problem is not all know their religion correctly, they do what they inherited from their parents.
I like it too, I spent last night discussing with a christian and an atheist about all that.

Salam.

I believe that all humans are intelligent but certain people decide to be arrogant and ignorant, God knows BEST.
That's true, I agree. They have inherited things from the parents. I have read in the paper that Lindsay Lohan's father was wasted during the days when he had intercourse with his wife and this is why Lindsay is in such problems with illegal drugs now. I think the article said that both parents were high and she concieved all the illegal drugs as well. But it is true that people inherit also parents' religion. In some cases, of course.

God Knows BEST.
Glory be to God.
Peace.