Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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Salaam and thank you for efforts to throw light on this matter that for a number of people always raises up questions.
Two immediate points occur to me as upholding of an understanding of those ayas of 24 as related to socially correct sexual relationships
there is the question of an accusing husband. There is the question of people accusing women of such things. There are many ayas en the sura revolving around the accusations against women of such thing. Accusations of indecency or adultery against men have never been such a great deal. Depending on circumstances and settings, may have been unpleasant and unwelcome, but not tragedies and in Europe for a long time male adultery was no crime, but female adultery was. For women mostly all along history such accusations have been social murder and even invitation to real murder or sanction of real murder. Quran talks in the sura about a real happening of such kind and how people, even converted, suposedly sincere muslims gave in to evil talk, of who? obviously of women not of men. What could it be? Theft? Money laundering? Slander? Not slander since it is specifically addressed and it is about it that revolves the sura. And it is precisely the penalty for slander that is set at 80 lashes or whatever, but eighty, which gives rise to my other question. If there is 80 lahes for slander, can we still uphold hat mi'a lashes for the zani and the zaniya are just an unspecified number or quantity?
I do not feel that An-nur focuses specificically on sex, but on social mores and attitudes and on ferocity against women regarding those mores and on the burdenning of women with that kind of servitude in exclusivity with no liberation in sight. It lifts the burden off women having to prove they are "virtuous" and places it on people to prove they are not and does it practically obliging to public indecency in order for the people to be able to open their mouths and obliges to indict the males as well, "al zani wa al zaniya", as joint authors. To wit, it obliges people to JUSTICE and to abandon oppression of a part of the members of society. It is not the Quran that places so much acount on sex or sexual indecency, but people, who use sex or sexual indecency to opress half the members os society. What the Quran doesn't do is proclaim that sexual mores do not matter, and let everybody do anything they please because that doesn't matter and anything goes. And they way out of not opressing one sex on account of sexual conduct is either the one chosen in the Quran or the "anything goes".
The pointedness of it all is seen in the fact that in spite of the clarity of the wording and intention expressed in the sura, still it is put aside in order to continue doing the same thing it tried to avoid, the ferocity against women and the instrumentation of social mores and values to her exclusive detriment.
I have also some question regarding the stripes and whether it is lashes or stripes or whatever that is meant. But on the general meaning of zani and zaniya I think that the whole seems to uphold the understanding of breach of social mores.
This is my initial take on this thread, and of course, no claim to absolute truth.
Salaam
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salaam
Fahsha is not limited to sex outside of marriage.
look at 422
http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/4_22.pngSahih International And do not marry those whom your fathers married, except what has already occurred. Indeed, it was an immorality and hateful and was evil as a way.
click to see other translations
as you see even a marriage which is accepted by law and society can be a Fahsha (one case here is marring with father's ex-wife)
but I think fahsha is related to sex, and according to 1722 Zina is a type of Fahsha (a special one).
as we know according to 423-24, having sex with some group of women is forbidden (it doesn't matter this relationship be out side of marriage or not)
http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/4_23.png
http//www.everyayah.com/data/images_png/4_24.pngSahih International Prohibited to you are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And the wives of your sons who are from your loins, and that you take two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful. * And married women except those your right hands possess. the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are beyond these, that you seek them with your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.
other translations 423 & 424
so if somebody have sex with these forbidden types of women (whether in marriage or not), he committing Fahsha. but there is no worldly punishment for it (according to Quran, even for one whom have sex with his father's ex-wife).
but If somebody have sex with Mohasena (another's wife), it became Zina, and therefore have punishment (for both) if it's been proved. police -
old people have sex??? yuck
LOL YES THEY DO! They maybe older but not dead laugh besides will you stop having sex when your old or older???...
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Dear all, let us not even waste our precious time about conjunctures of past. Let us realize that we do not understand a word of the book. All translations are wrong. Only way to understand the book is by reviving the language. Let us join hands and put our time and resources to this one goal
This word's root would be
Please, review following links from Lane. Not even a single meaning coming close to, what is in the translation.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000438.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000439.pdfIs not time to wake up to take destiny in our own hands?
Badar
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Peace,
Dear all, let us not even waste our precious time about conjunctures of past. Let us realize that we do not understand a word of the book. All translations are wrong. Only way to understand the book is by reviving the language. Let us join hands and put our time and resources to this one goal
This word's root would be
Please, review following links from Lane. Not even a single meaning coming close to, what is in the translation.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000438.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000439.pdfIs not time to wake up to take destiny in our own hands?
Badar
Peace -- you have the wrong root and the wrong reference...
1732 l-zin indeed it is fishatan
Root zy nn y
Zay-Nun-Ya = to mount, the mounting upon a thing, to commit fornication/adultery, fornicator/adulterer.
Yaznuuna (imp. 3rd p.m. plu) They commit adultery or fornication
Yazniina (imp. 3rd p.f. plu.) They f commit adultery or fornication
Zaanii (act. pic. m. sing it is Zaaniin where final nuun is dropped) One who commits adultery or fornication; Adulterer or fornicator.
Zaaniyatun ( act. pic. f. sing.) Adulteressor or fornicatoress
zana vb. (I)
yazni impf. act. 2568, 6012
zina n. vb. 1732
pcple. act. (zani f., zaniyah) 242, 242, 243, 243, 243, 243
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 426
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000426.pdfRoot f shn
Fa-Ha-Shin = became excessive/immoderate/enormous/exorbitant/overmuch/beyond measure, foul/bad/evil/unseemly/indecency/abominable, lewd/gross/obscene, committing excess which is forbidden, transgress the bounds/limits, avaricious, adultery/fornication.
fahishah n.f. (pl. fawahish) 3135, 415, 419, 422, 425, 6151, 728, 733, 780, 1732, 2419, 2754, 2928, 3330, 4237, 5332, 651
fahsha n.f. 2169, 2268, 728, 1224, 1690, 2421, 2945
LL, V6, p 128, 129
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume6/00000128.pdf
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume6/00000129.pdfEdward Lane's Lexicon is not the Bible for interpreting Qur'an which he derived his info from the locals in mid 1800's...
http//pdfreebooks.org/i/covers/lane_lexicon_200.png
An Arabic-English Lexicon, derived from the best and the most copious eastern sources comprising a very large collection of words and significations omitted in the Kamoos, with supplements to its abridged and defective explanations, ample grammatical and critical comments, and examples in prose and verse.
Composed by means of the munificense of the most noble Algernon, Duke of Northumberland, K.G, etc, etc, etc, and the bounty of the British Government;
By Edward William Lane, hon. doctor of literature of the University of Leyden, correspondent of the Institute of France, etc.
Edited by Stanley Lane-Poole.
Williams and Norgate, London, 1863-1893 (reprinted by Libraire du Liban, Beirut, 196
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Thanks, that is what I meant by calling, to get out of the conjunctures of the past/translations. If the root is zy nn y , as suggested by you, based upon tradition. Please, explain the word in red. How it could be derived from this root.
However, one could make a case for root being, . I would have to grant that. But again that is besides the point being made. Which is, we do not understand a word of the book. Come back to it with an intention to understand it, with the help of the language. Not just to keep explaining the held beliefs/understanding with the help of language. Because one cann't do this, and will continue to run into problems again and again. In the end choice is ours. What we want to do? Uphold the flase traditions and pride, or to find out the truth and believe in it.
Peace,Badar
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Thanks, that is what I meant by calling, to get out of the conjunctures of the past/translations. If the root is zy nn y , as suggested by you, based upon tradition. Please, explain the word in red. How it could be derived from this root.
Peace,
Badar
Peace, already posted (not from tradition) derived from text in context...
al-zniyatu wal-zn similar phrase as female and male to borrow a slang from the urban dictionary.
http//www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=he-ho&defid=1969532
Therefore are for each other...
243 al-zn not marry only zniyatan...
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Peace, already posted (not from tradition) derived from text in context...
Peace, we are talking basic Arabic grammar. There is no rule in exsistence, to date, to best of my knowledge. That will allow change of three letter roots like this, as suggested by you. can not become . One situation already indicated by me above, is 1st compulsory rule of writting of verbs. Where is either and with a vowel and a preceeding letter with fetha and following letter is with a vowel as well. In this case, Yaa and Wa are changed into Alif. Hence, root of the word in red above should be either or , but could not be .
Badar
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Peace, we are talking basic Arabic grammar. There is no rule in exsistence, to date, to best of my knowledge. That will allow change of three letter roots like this, as suggested by you. can not become .
Peace, I believe the alif along with singular and plural usage is confusing you; this is very simple?
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Zay-Nun-Ya = to mount, the mounting upon a thing, to commit fornication/adultery, fornicator/adulterer.
Yaznuuna (imp. 3rd p.m. plu) They commit adultery or fornication
Yazniina (imp. 3rd p.f. plu.) They f commit adultery or fornication
Zaanii (act. pic. m. sing it is Zaaniin where final nuun is dropped) One who commits adultery or fornication; Adulterer or fornicator.
Zaaniyatun ( act. pic. f. sing.) Adulteressor or fornicatoress
zana vb. (I)
yazni impf. act. 2568, 6012
zina n. vb. 1732
pcple. act. (zani f., zaniyah) 242, 242, 243, 243, 243, 243
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 426Main root and definition?
1732 And not go near the zin (noun) indeed it is fishatan and evil way.
Use singular?
242-3 the fornicatress and the fornicator
the fornicator a fornicatress and the fornicatress a fornicatorUse plural?
2568 yaznna plural ? and not they commit fornication
6012 yaznna feminine plural ? and not they commit fornication
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What? Let me get this straight. You are implying as singular or plural? Let us just talk about this word and not the derived words. This is where root shall be decided. Are you saying this is the root?
Peace,
Badar
Peace Badar,
There is nothing to discuss; first you posted...
This word's root would be
That is not the word used or root or anything written in quran.
You messed up and continue with pointless questions which was clearly spelled out for you...Main root and definition?
1732 And not go near the zin (noun) indeed it is fishatan and evil way.
Use singular?
242-3 the fornicatress and the fornicator
the fornicator a fornicatress and the fornicatress a fornicatorUse plural?
2568 yaznna plural ? and not they commit fornication
6012 yaznna feminine plural ? and not they commit fornication
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What I've noticed here, is more like we're trying to fit circles into squares.
That is trying to fit new understandings to what is already accepted by getting as close as possible to the original idea or explanation.It's similar to the word hijab.. that people talk about it as being a garment.
Now I haven't seen any verse speaking about rape and rapist, I don't know maybe there is and just escaped my attention or never heard an imam talk about it!!
Does that mean it's ok?One of the issues that many sunnies love talking about.. is .. this is Haram.. and so is this one.. and also that one.. and all life is spent talking about Haram things.. and sex is the favourite one.
This explains a lot, knowing that in many so called Muslim societies, women are the keeper of the family of honour
and family honour is located in the vagina!Let's say two people, adults with consent (no violence involved) have sex and I found out about it, right!
Now am I supposed to gather 3 other people to act as witnesses and maybe film the whole thing, and of course afterwards we get the Haram Police to inquire about the identity of the couple, and ask them
Are you married to each other?
They'll reply yes.. and this is our proof..!
Right, so now everybody go to sleep.. there's nothing to look here.. go back and do something useful for humanity..Peace
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Written by Zubair
Let me clarify that I am no expert of Arabic language. However, I am a truth seeker and a student who is busy learning and gaining knowledge on every subject every day. Further, God Almighty has endowed us with intelligence, common sense, and logic. When I applied these assets, I had no choice but to marvel at Dr. Qamar?s unique and rare gift of understanding the terms of the Quran.
If we accept the traditional meanings of the terms Zina and Zani, then we have a problem with the punishment. It is selective and discriminatory. Most of the time only adulteress receives the punishment, not the adulterer. Our traditional scholars reject DNA evidence. Without the DNA evidence, it is impossible to convict an adulterer. The same is the case with a rapist. Our traditional scholars have made it easy for men to rape women and get no punishment at all. How can a victim produce 4 witnesses, as required under Sharia Law? If she files a complaint against her rapist, it is considered admission of guilt or adultery. Hence, the victim, who is almost always a female, receives the punishment. God is Just. But this punishment is unjust plain and simple.
Are not we intelligent creatures? Do not we know how to prevent crimes and deal with criminals? Of courses our methods change and improve with time. But God?s laws do not change. If we take ZINA to mean adultery and ZANI as adulterer or adulteress, then we are forever stuck with this punishment of 100 lashes. This brings us to another dilemma. Is adultery really so horrible crime that God had to prescribe a punishment? Bear in mind that an adulterer and adulteress mostly hurt their own selves. On the other hand there are crimes that hurt and even destroy the whole societies. Take a look at the nation of Pakistan. The whole nation is suffering as a result of the crimes such as robbery, bribery, corruption, hoarding, profiteering, adulteration or contamination of foods, the illegal business of counterfeit medicines, racism, discrimination, nepotism, exploitation of the weak, abuse and rape of women and children, sectarianism, and terrorism. Why God did not prescribe a punishment for these crimes, some of which, such as terrorism and abuse and rape of women and children, are indeed horrible?
Is adultery (intercourse out of wedlock) such an abhorrent crime that God had to intervene personally and prescribe a punishment of 100 lashes or death by stoning, as claimed by our esteemed traditional scholars? Please study the subject of Human Reproduction and ponder. Did man choose this method of reproduction? If so, the man is indeed guilty and deserves punishment even more than 100 lashes. If not, then how can you punish the man for something he did not choose? Humans and all living things reproduce the way God selected for them. The man is not perfect. He is prone to making mistakes. God Almighty is aware of this fact. Hence, He reminds us over and over again that He is The MOST MERCIFUL and FORGIVING. However, by interpreting God?s words incorrectly, our esteemed traditional scholars depict our Creator to be the Most Unmerciful and Unforgiving.
To catch and convict adulterers and adulteresses those responsible for law enforcement have to keep an eye on every male and female whether married or unmarried. Is this possible? Is this wise use of law enforcement resources?
In my humble view the Quran provides us with a cure for all ills whether they are personal or social. We can easily get rid of all our social ills including lewdness and even acts of terrorism by implementing the Quranic system of Salat and Zakat. I am talking about establishing Executive, Legislative, Judicial, and Economic systems that function according to Quranic decrees. And of course we need to carry out the Soum to fight against and weed out all evils from the society.
http//www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?MID=2&SID=44&QID=404
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Written by Zubair
http//www.aastana.com/blog/aastanablog.asp?MID=2&SID=44&QID=404
Bob , Thank u for this site, fiest time I see someone who understood that ZAWJ isn't wife, and Adiiyaa isn't adopted son, I'm gonna spend time with this site, see u in weeks LOL
Again, thank u -
Bob , Thank u for this site, fiest time I see someone who understood that ZAWJ isn't wife,
412 And for you half what left your wives (azwjukum) ...
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I have read through the little text in the site given by Bob. I agree with the general meaning that is givn for zina. I think I said somewhere else, that in 24 it is not so much about sex, but about social mores, and what people owe each other and society in general. In 4.21 marriage is called mithaq ghalith, the same as God calls His covenants with he prophets and the people. Therefore zina in the context of Qur'an is not about sex, but about faithfulness, responsibility, seriousness... But as it happens and as I think Qur'an teaches, sex is not casual. Sex is not an entertainment industry, is not entertainment even if it can be pleasurable. That is a gift from God, that things that are usful are also made pleasant, except delivery, which most of the time is painful. People's bodies are not expendable nor goods.
Some people here speak about sex before marriage and include in that those situations in which couples live together but are not married. As far as I am concerned, what those couples maintain is marriage. They and society may choose not to call it that, but tht is what it is. It is a stable and exclusive relationship
with mutual obligations and with a shared home. In fact under common law those are considered marriages, and in countries without common law they are considered de facto marriages. There is a pact either implicit or explicit, there is publicity, in the sense that it is public and live publicly as a couple. The fact that it is not called marriage comes from previous history where women were classified as mistresses or wives, in a civilisation where divorce was not comtemplated till very recently in historical terms, but the facts are the same.Zina thereforein 24 is about that, and the lashes or stripes or whatever are not for the sin, but for the significance and publicity. If four witnesses are required, it is precisely to avoid policing of people. The problems pointed out by Bob do not stem from the Qur'an which states clearly that both actors in the fact, in case four witnesses testify are t be punished equally. So if somebody picks the zaniya and not the zani or if somebody considers rape a zina, tht is not from the Qur'an, and people who do that, are simple laughing at the Qur'an and they would laugh at the Qur'an equally even if the Qur'an said something else. If somebody is determined to do as he or she pleases and not according to law, they will. That is not a problem with the law, but with the people. Obviously when that gets completely out of hand, redressing the situation is hell, because no matter what law you come up with, those who hold the belief that law is not for them and that it is their good right to be on top no mtter what, will find the way to go around the law. That has nothing to do with wisdom of the law or the lack of it. In fact those are the hypocrites we know that time on them is wasted.
And the bulk of 4.24 that is about zina deals precisely with evil talk and salndering and thing ill and evil of other people, particularly women. ?Why didn't you think the best? Asks the Qur'an. Therefore, we cannot go around acussing anybody of zina without clear undoubtable witnesses, four, of the fact without any othr possibility of interpretation or explanation, because we are asked and admonished that we should think the best. We are not entitled to think otherwise. Our suspicions, must stay suspicions and for ourselves.
Salaam
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Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
because i see when Allah talks about wives or husbunds commits an adultery is called FAHISHA , and there is even a verse that if your wife comes with fahisha u need 4 witnesses and keep her confined ( home or jail ) and i believe it's vice versa for menFor young people who are not married , I believe there is no punishement for sex except from Allah, for the verse of Khitbat Nisaa allah say , talk to them correct because Allah see what u do !!!!
MAin point is , i think Zania and Zani are the prostitute and it's client or the pimp !!!
Can anyone clear it upZ00000mg really? HOW YOUNG!? ... D nvm i thought u said no punishment at all lol