Why Quran only is not a viable alternative to mainstream Islam(Sunnism)
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Without seerah/hadiths/authority-of-ulema(madhap etc), there is just nothing left of Islam..! Hadiths contain lots of BS, but the same is true for the Qur'an.
Salaam citizen,
It is unfortunate that you compare the Holy Quran with those hadiths and categorize both as BS in the same breath. One cannot coerce anyone in religion ofcourse, but if you really search for the truth, you will find irrefutable evidence that the author of the Book is the Creator almighty Himself. Once you have accepted this evidence, then you would have no choice but to accept every word in the Book however illogical it sounds to you right now.I would only like to remind you that the Holy Quran is a guide to live righteously. You may follow it or not, that's a risk you take. If you choose to reject It, there is a higher probability that you would fall into bad influences, forget your true purpose and waste your life away.
In the end, only He knows who can be accepted back into His kingdom. (read sura 262)
Peace. May He guide us all in the straight path.
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Hi there, thanks again for your precious comments and advice..
The issue is that I've been told(you can call it brainwashed) that MY and ONLY my version of Islam( i.e. some branch of Sunnism) is right, and all the others are wrong. I remember being told about the "73 factions" hadith,- 73 different (Islamic) factions/denominations etc will emerge, but only 1 will lead to real success , only one is the best path to the Lord. (Some Sunnis, though, reject this hadith as being weak.)
One of the most cited examples of one of those factions which went astray was of the Mu'tazilah (I saw your post hereabove, that reminds me..).
Mu'tazilah is known to pay more attention to logic and reason, and , although I am not that well-informed, I think that Qur'an-only does have quite some characteristics in common with the Mu'tazilah, and related sects who give reason+logic more importance than the traditionalists.Anyway, I will be hanging around this site for some more time, who knows perhaps I will begin to understand what this is all about and why I should (re)consider taking the Qur'an more seriously in my life. Because I know there is something in me which wants to believe,- living with the knowledge that this wordly life is everything and that Divine Justice and an hereafter doesn't exist freaks the hell out of me.
Salaam Citizen
I haven't read the entire thread, I kind of got stuck with your comments only since I thought they were interesting, and eventhough I don't speak arabic I have been battling with almost the same questions.
Cutting off hands - Ok, we are to cut off the hands off thieves.....wait, is that really what Allah wants us to do? To hurt eachother? Does that feel good in your heart? What if the thief is your father and you are the judge? That puts you in a dilemma, or not? Eventhough it clearly states that we are to be cruel to thieves, isn't our interpretation wrong of the meaning of the words rather than the words themselves? Maybe it is for future generations to understand, not for us.
Prophet Muhammed being a bad guy according to the hadith - Yeah, so? He was a man of his time and did what people did. We cannot use our 2010 morality to judge him because we didn't live in 600. What if he did all those bad things. Maybe not, maybe so. But should the Quran be judged because of this?
Kuffar - A disbeliever, someone who doesnt believe it is your right to believe. Is a buddhist a disbeliever? No. Is a buddhist who tries to stop you from believing what you want to believe a disbeliever? Yes. There are not many disbelievers in our world, but some names are Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot....
If you believe that honouring your parents, being kind to orphans, letting people have freedom and other moral rules that can be found in the Quran as BS, then OK, the Quran is BS for you. But if you do not believe that, then are you not being a bit hypocritical?
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Anyway, I will be hanging around this site for some more time, who knows perhaps I will begin to understand what this is all about and why I should (re)consider taking the Qur'an more seriously in my life. Because I know there is something in me which wants to believe,- living with the knowledge that this wordly life is everything and that Divine Justice and an hereafter doesn't exist freaks the hell out of me.
Without the belief in God and in the hereafter, the belief that good deeds will be rewarded and bad deeds will be punished; there is no incentive to act good.
So atheism leads to egoism, acting in order to get rewards by the society ; that is, some king of slavery. In an atheistic world, we are slave to our desires, which are shaped by the pressures of the society, which are driven by multinational corporations.
The core message of the Quran is just that one should believe in God and in the hereafter, and act good.
To be a slave of God implies refusing to be a slave of anything else. It just means you are free.Peace
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Salaam CitizenDerCosmos,
I'm a cosmopolite myself, I have no interest in the confusions of others in the present or the past, until you approach the evidence with a clean mind you will never understand Islam, I read comments and advice on this thread that were filled with unclean ideas and confusions, very basic ones, but the contaminations within their own minds would make it extremely difficult for them to shed these confusions within themselves.
Take religion, clearly the Qur'an condemns every and all religion as worthless, something to avoid, and ask us to establish the Deen of Islam, yet how few reject every and all religion as directed, almost none, does that make the Qur'an wrong?
The majority have inherited the perversions of the original Arabic from the people of the past, who desired a usurious existence so altered the meanings of the words to conform to the perversions of their own mind, so they take the word Deen and re-define it to mean religion for example.
My advice, if you indeed wish to understand your purpose and function within the fabric of the universe, is to investigate and establish for yourself the true definitions and original meaning of the text within the Qur'an, and not to take the rubbish of the religious with you in your investigations.
If you find the Qur'an is indeed filled with rubbish, bad advice and contradictions, I for one would be interested in reading about your findings, I am myself searching the Qur'an, I have little interest in the so called historical verses, I have dismissed them out of hand for the present, superficially considering them profound corruptions of the text, this means I can investigate what I feel to be the true importance of the Qur'an the Deen itself.
The understanding of the structure of society we must establish and exist within to be at peace, to allow ourselves and those around us to expand and develop in every attribute they have within themselves, making a society to create a deep, thoughtful, generous and compassionate community, a place I long to exist within, as Allah has programmed us to that end.
You are welcome to read the four models of society suggested within the Qur'an posted on my website
http//servantofthelight.com/
The four models are
Allodial ownership
Polycentric community
Human energy economics
Common lawAnother simple rule of thumb I apply, if it is a concept shared by Christians it is generally wrong, so investigate the concepts the Qur'an truly applies, for example Good and Bad, heaven and hell, punishment and revenge are all Christian concepts, not Qur'anic.
Jahannam is not a place of punishment, but a place of education, as Allah makes nothing idly, it is not a system of hate, pettiness, revenge and torment, it is a system of compassion, love, generosity and purpose.
The reason humanity suffers in this world is a direct result of religion, the God personification, the heaven in the sky, all derive from the original sun worshiping, adopted by the Christians, who infest the minds of humanity with the blind faith in accepting their lies; worship and adoration of buildings, dead men and religious parasites, you should consider why would Allah require your worship, what would be the purpose of prayer?
It is simply a construct of the religious to live usuriously upon the people, this is the reason the Qur'an does not present worship and prayer because its an invention of the religious parasites.
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Take religion, clearly the Qur'an condemns every and all religion as worthless, something to avoid, and ask us to establish the Deen of Islam, yet how few reject every and all religion as directed, almost none, does that make the Qur'an wrong?
Salaam
Where does it clearly condemn all religion? Are you talking about religion as a religious person would see it or do you mean that the Quran condemns the real meaning of religion?
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Salaam Emil,
well although the translations are inadequate I will use the predominant interpretations
Surah 6159
Indeed, those who have divided their Deen and become sects, you are not with them in anything. Their affair is only to Allah; then they will be informed about what they used to do.Surah 319
Indeed, the Deen in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the book (Qur'an) did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves.Surah 385
And whoever desires other than Islam as Deen - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.Surah 395
Say, " Allah has told the truth. So follow what a group of people believe and practice for a long time as Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of the polytheists."This is a little of the idea, but I will post more when I have a few minutes, no religion only the Deen - system or structure of society to exist within (Bayta).
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Without the belief in God and in the hereafter, the belief that good deeds will be rewarded and bad deeds will be punished; there is no incentive to act good.
I disagree (respectfully).
There is a lot that is passed down on us from society (kind of like you mentioned, but I'm talking about what is considered acceptable behavior or not) - and how we are raised by our parents definitely shapes us. I believe that there is also something internal, placed there by God - that is our barometer of whether or not something is good. There is an incentive to act good to feel at peace with yourself. -
Anyway, to come back to my openingsquestion Quran-only movement won't hold it out,- indeed by almost all other Muslims you are considered apostates. Quran-only is the last chance to "rationalize" Islam,- a major blow to Islam in which >99% of Islamic literature is all rejected/deemed unreliable.
I am not sure about your motives, but obviously you have no respect to the Quran. Here are my short answers.
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I care less whether the majority of Sunni or Shiite people accept or reject the message of monotheism (one God, that is one source; not God + Muhammad + This + That imam). As the Quran reminds us numerous times, the truth has its own value and it is priceless. The abundance of dirt should not impress us.
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Islam does not need rationalization, since it is rational. If you have problem with rationality of islam, you need to check your prejudices and dogmas. What about starting the verse 10100.
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This movement is the only chance for Muslims to get out of darkness of ignorance.
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The movement is now in its fourth stage and receiving momentum.x
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"It is just pathetic that ALL those thousands of ulemaa all had it completely wrong... And here we are back at one of the strongest arguments of traditional Muslims.. Appeal to authority." This statement proves your own pathetic level of critical thinking. The same appeal to the crowd is used by Christianity to justify Trinity and many other innovations. As for ALL, many of real ulamas were considered HERETIC by Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties and were punished. What about starting using your own brain instead of appealing to clergymen supported by corrupt and oppressive kings?
Peace,
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Dear Edip, I feel honoured to get a reply from you, as you, being my (unfortunately self-exiled) countryman. I applaud your efforts to break through the thick barriers of dogma, intellectual laziness and bigotry, and I am with you in this struggle for freedom of speech and thought.
However, this is as for as our common values we share, as I go just one step further and also reject the Qur'an. I am an apostate, formerly a Sunni, and for more or less the same reasons I lost my faith in the ahadith , I also regard the Qur'an nothing more than a book with some advices, guidances and parables by and for seventh century Arabia. I have investigated some of your ( and other Quraniites) evidences of why we should take the Qur'an (and only that) as our basis of this life, however I was disappointed by your arguments.
For instance, the whole idea of "19" just doesn't make any sense. The late Khalifa sure was handy in using computers to find patterns, but for me this is just coincidence. There are lots of numbers(not just 19) and there are many ways to "see" 19 in some ayat/verse number etc. (the ayat number , surah number, sum of those, product of those, juxtaposing them, add this sura to that sura subtract ... ). No,- it's certainly not convincing.
In one of your articles you tell us how sometimes you have had the same struggles,- I am very sure you too have struggled(are struggling?) with the most fundamental question regarding the Qur'an Is it divine or is it written by men? Regarding this question I am on the different side.
I don't think you use Occam's Razor when you project your own views on the Qur'an, instead of going with the most straightforward meaning (For examples Translation of "beat your wives"," cut their hands", "they will be in hell for ever", "their skin will be replaces and this torture will go on for ever" etc). -
I don't think you use Occam's Razor when you project your own views on the Qur'an, instead of going with the most straightforward meaning (For examples Translation of "beat your wives"," cut their hands", "they will be in hell for ever", "their skin will be replaces and this torture will go on for ever" etc).
Do you?
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Salaam Wakas,
the guy CitizenDerCosmos seems to be a moron, he makes no sense, he is deeply inept in logic, as Edip points out, he has no grasp of reason at all, it is a pointless task presenting logical arguments to person incapable of rational thought.
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Jahannam is not a place of punishment, but a place of education, as Allah makes nothing idly, it is not a system of hate, pettiness, revenge and torment, it is a system of compassion, love, generosity and purpose.
Salaam Abdun.
Can you provide me with your analysis of the quran on how you come to the conclusion that jahannam is not a place of punishment but a place of education. Thank you.
PEACE
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the guy CitizenDerCosmos seems to be a moron, he makes no sense, he is deeply inept in logic, as Edip points out, he has no grasp of reason at all, it is a pointless task presenting logical arguments to person incapable of rational thought.
Salam Abdunnur,
Thanks for your compliments. yay We all need to be reminded how delusional and irrational we all can get, however as I have previously pointed out I have the same sort of doubts regarding your( and Edip's, and Dr. Khalifa's..) methods regarding interpreting the Qur'an. It shouldn't be a problem that we disagree with one and other, but we all must have the commitment to always seek the truth.
Let me illustrate what I said When you say that , contrary to the idea many Muslims aswell as non-Muslims get when they read the Qur'an, you claim that Jahannam is not a place of eternall torture and suffering, but a place where evil doers /criminals will be "rehabilitated" and in which they fully become aware of their sins, till they paid back , repaired the evil they did and fully understood the consequences. Sounds good! ! This is indeed what people would expect a civilized, mannered Lord would do. (Let alone the Lord, the sole Creator of the Universe and what more..)
However, when I, or countless others (non) Muslims read the Qur'an, (JUST the Qur'an, not the tafseers, or the ahadith or..), I can't escape the immense hatred and intolerance towards the "kuffaar" (deliberately not translating it as this is what the whole issue revolves around). Allah describes the immense torture and suffering those kuffaar will undergo, and any doubt about misinterpreting (it is already quite clear, but assume..) will be faded away by the ahadith and the many works of the former Ulama.One of your most favourite arguments is the "hey! You appeal to authority, are you not aware of the maltreatment of Qur'an only Muslims in e.g. the Amawids of the Abbasids periods?". You have a point there, we can't appeal to authority unconditionally BUT it DOES show something, namely that YOU as a "deviant" sect must show extraordinary evidences to support your highly metaphorical, non-mainstream translation of the Qur'an. In which you failed miserably With all due respect to the late Khalifa and his followers, I simply laughed at the desperate attempts by Khalifa to find some ''hidden" code/message in the Qur'an, of which the sole purpose was to prove it is from God (instead of giving answers to any questions..) All of those attempts can be dismissed if anyone has had some basic probability theory (endless manipulations of verse number, ayat number, sum of those, product, difference..) will almost surely give you some "hidden message". (c.f. the Moby Dick prophecies.)
It made my think of... The answer to life, the universe, . everything... is 42 yeah -
Dear Edip, I feel honoured to get a reply from you, as you, being my (unfortunately self-exiled) countryman. I applaud your efforts to break through the thick barriers of dogma, intellectual laziness and bigotry, and I am with you in this struggle for freedom of speech and thought.
However, this is as for as our common values we share, as I go just one step further and also reject the Qur'an. I am an apostate, formerly a Sunni, and for more or less the same reasons I lost my faith in the ahadith , I also regard the Qur'an nothing more than a book with some advices, guidances and parables by and for seventh century Arabia. I have investigated some of your ( and other Quraniites) evidences of why we should take the Qur'an (and only that) as our basis of this life, however I was disappointed by your arguments.
For instance, the whole idea of "19" just doesn't make any sense. The late Khalifa sure was handy in using computers to find patterns, but for me this is just coincidence. There are lots of numbers(not just 19) and there are many ways to "see" 19 in some ayat/verse number etc. (the ayat number , surah number, sum of those, product of those, juxtaposing them, add this sura to that sura subtract ... ). No,- it's certainly not convincing.
In one of your articles you tell us how sometimes you have had the same struggles,- I am very sure you too have struggled(are struggling?) with the most fundamental question regarding the Qur'an Is it divine or is it written by men? Regarding this question I am on the different side.
I don't think you use Occam's Razor when you project your own views on the Qur'an, instead of going with the most straightforward meaning (For examples Translation of "beat your wives"," cut their hands", "they will be in hell for ever", "their skin will be replaces and this torture will go on for ever" etc).Dear Citizen
Witnessing the extraordinary sign of 19 is a strange phenomenon; it is in itself a prophetic process well described in 7430-31. Witnessing the sign of 19, has some objective and subjective conditions. For example, as you cannot witness a computer generated random-dot 3-D picture with one eye closed or from too far or from too close, similarly you cannot witness this great miracle if you do not satisfy the pre-requisites. Unconditional interest in finding the truth without worrying what others would think is one of them. As it seems, one of your shortcomings might be your weakness against "the authorities" and "crowds" and some problems with your logic board. (I teach logic for living and I could test your logical integrity privately if you wish). But, there could be some other subtle problems with your approach to the issue, which determines whether you can witness the nineteen or not.
I have just finished NINETEEN God's Signature in Nature and Scripture and inshallah it will be available to public within 30-40 days.
I will also publish the revised and expanded version of Running Like Zebras, where you will find many good discussions on this subject.
As for your Occam's Razor, it does not work well. I recommend you to read an article published at Skeptic magazine to see the short coming of this razor. For instance, if we use that razor consistently it will shave off the complicated and convoluted theory of evolution.
Since you are not questioning the why a particular meaning appear to be "straightforward" for you, I won't be able to discuss those three phrases with you. It is my experience that when I discuss with an atheist I usually ending up discussing against a SUNNI + ATHEIST, which is very difficult task since the Atheist does not know that he or she is influenced by the Sunni dogmas, traditions, and understanding of words and phrases.
For instance, when I discuss Muhammad's marriage to the divorced wife of his adopted son against atheists' criticism, upon investigation, I discover that they condemn incest as an immoral act without even knowing that such a negative view of incest emanates from their religious background.
In other words, if you can promise me that you will be able to discuss the issue as an atheist, not as an amalgamated strange critic, not as a SUNNI-ATHEIST, then we might be able to carry out a decent and productive argument. Otherwise, like many other atheists, you will be dancing between Sunnism and Atheism without predictable pattern. I am an old man and I cannot dance that well )
Peace,
Edip -
I have just finished NINETEEN God's Signature in Nature and Scripture and inshallah it will be available to public within 30-40 days.
I am looking forward to this book. Even though I don't (yet) agree with your views, I am curious about them. However, I have posted my objections, and I expect you to answer my arguments in detail. Anyway, it is an objective FACT that the Qur'an is a very ambigious piece of work, proven time and time again by the enormous amount of different explanations, interpretations and commentaries about the Qur'an. A work supposedly clear oughted to be debunked centuries ago when it became clear how such a simple verse like " cut their hands" could be read like "mark (?) their hands/let them repair the damage they caused" etc.
Kind regards,
Citizen -
I am looking forward to this book. Even though I don't (yet) agree with your views, I am curious about them. However, I have posted my objections, and I expect you to answer my arguments in detail. Anyway, it is an objective FACT that the Qur'an is a very ambigious piece of work, proven time and time again by the enormous amount of different explanations, interpretations and commentaries about the Qur'an. A work supposedly clear oughted to be debunked centuries ago when it became clear how such a simple verse like " cut their hands" could be read like "mark (?) their hands/let them repair the damage they caused" etc.
Kind regards,
CitizenI agree with u in some words wich are straightforward, like punishement forever, i don't see another meaning unless arabic isn't no mmore the old arabic of the times when the quran came to existance, but there is a difference in the cutt off their hands
QUattia , the T has shadda , therefore it only means cutt off
while in the verse of thiefs, there is no shadda on the T , so it doesn't mean cutt off, the sames way as Aktiaa the street, it doesn't mean cutt off the road, but cross it, thses are two words that differenciate with shadda on the T , therefore one is litteral cutt of, and the other is not. and the verse of the thiefs isn't cutt off. as simple as that
code19 pattern, i believe there is a pattern for 19 , but not that far, or that deep, people get fascinated by it, but i don't get fascinated by numbers, numbers are just numbers, guidance is in the text . and i can't understand what 19 has to do with the universe, i thaught the golden ration is 1.6 -
I just want to add in that not all of us believe about the number 19 stuff or Dr. Khalifa I personally think he's a false prophet and the number 19 business is bull.
Following the Qur'an only has nothing to do with the number 19 for me personally and I think the number 19 business hurts the Qur'an alone movement for all of us who reject hadith to be affiliated or connected to Dr. Khalifa and his craziness.. I simply read and follow the Qur'an.
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I just want to add in that not all of us believe about the number 19 stuff or Dr. Khalifa I personally think he's a false prophet and the number 19 business is bull.
Following the Qur'an only has nothing to do with the number 19 for me personally and I think the number 19 business hurts the Qur'an alone movement for all of us who reject hadith to be affiliated or connected to Dr. Khalifa and his craziness.. I simply read and follow the Qur'an.
Du you think if you find the way and follow the quran only we won't be tested ?
as soon as u find the quran only, u will find khalifa in front of u , and code19 , and manipulations, and arguments, and people try to convince u , and those who are convinced, most of them stick with 19 holy number, and worship khalifa, but if u stick to the quran alone and u pass this fitna, than u follow quran alone, if u fail in this test, u become rashad and code19 follower, no more quran alone follower
I don't believe at all in khalifa too, i almost did though, and code19 is just a number, all numbers that exist are god's and are a sign, not only 19, there is no holy number, the only holy is god.
peace -
I agree with u in some words wich are straightforward, like punishement forever, i don't see another meaning unless arabic isn't no mmore the old arabic of the times when the quran came to existance, but there is a difference in the cutt off their hands
QUattia , the T has shadda , therefore it only means cutt off
while in the verse of thiefs, there is no shadda on the T , so it doesn't mean cutt off, the sames way as Aktiaa the street, it doesn't mean cutt off the road, but cross it, thses are two words that differenciate with shadda on the T , therefore one is litteral cutt of, and the other is not. and the verse of the thiefs isn't cutt off. as simple as that
code19 pattern, i believe there is a pattern for 19 , but not that far, or that deep, people get fascinated by it, but i don't get fascinated by numbers, numbers are just numbers, guidance is in the text . and i can't understand what 19 has to do with the universe, i thaught the golden ration is 1.6Your theory based on Shadda does not hold for at least two reasons
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Shadda cannot be substantiated by the oldest available text of the Quran; it is a later innovation like other dietrical marks. Shadda reflects a particular reading, and usually they are shaped after the teaching of sects and hadith reports.
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The word QaT'A in verse 1231, which does not mean "cut-off" but a simple cut/mark by accident, yes, that verb too is conventionally or traditionally read with Shadda.
If you look at the Quran a Reformist Translation, there you will see my take on the flexibility of reading some words and their alternative meanings...
Please do a little studying and thinking before coming up with assertions like this.
The verse about cutting the hands of thieves can be read in both ways and can be understood in three ways, which I believe is the intention of the Author of the Quran. Unfortunately, some people with knee-jerk reaction to the Quran are unable to appreciate this deliberate flexibility in its expressions, that accommodate times and different conditions.
Peace,
Edip -
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Salaam Prince,
a bit off topic but
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/29/54/The principle once established within a verse of the Qur'an applies universally to every other verse, for example Allah creates nothing Idly, this means you cannot be held in Jahannam without purpose.
Allah is compassionate and forgiving, this means the torment is given to yourself by yourself, not inflicted upon you.
Allah has made you to transform from state to state, therefore you must continue to transform.
Due to circular time upon entering Jahannam you have existed there from the very first moment of creation itself, this is why Allah warns us you do not want to spend a single instant in Jahannam, but all escape Jahannam as you dwell there forever and ever, while you dwell in Jannah forever and ever and ever. Each forever is a revolution of circular time.
