Quranic proof for morning and evening salat? Input needed...
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AQ = al quran
These verses are addressed in the singular (i.e. to the messenger)
And do not turn away those who call on their Lord at dawn and dusk seeking His presence; not is on you anything of their account, nor (on them) anything of your account; if you turn them away, then you will be of the wrongdoers. And it is such that We test them with one another, so that they may say "Are these the ones whom God has favoured from amongst us?" Is God not aware of the thankful?
And recite what has been inspired to you from your Lord's scripture, there is no changing His words, and you will not find besides Him any refuge. And have patience upon yourself with those who call on their Lord at dawn and dusk seeking His presence, and let not your eyes overlook them that you seek the beauty of this worldly life. And do not obey the one whom We have made his heart heedless of Our remembrance and he followed his desire, and his command is excessive/hasty.
Muhammad Asad - End Note 41 (652)
According to Traditions, this and the next verse were revealed when, several years before the Muslims' exodus to Medina, some of the pagan chieftains at Mecca expressed their willingness to consider accepting Islam on the condition that the Prophet would dissociate himself from the former slaves and other "lowly" persons among his followers - a demand which the Prophet, of course, rejected. This historical reference does not, however, provide a full explanation of the above 'passage.....The tradition seems to imply there was a group of people (we can assume the majority or more powerful/rich, due to the rebuke "seeking the beauty of this worldly life" who wanted the messenger to turn away another group of people. Now, AQ does not refer to the people as lowly/poor, but talks about their practice, as if that is the differentiating characteristic, thus would directly imply there was hostility to those who "call on their Lord morning and evening". Whether the hostility is to the practice or the people, or both is not crystal clear. What is crystal clear however, is that to turn such people away is wrong, and in 1827-28 the messenger is told to have patience with the "call on their Lord morning and evening" people and the context implies firmly not to be tempted to change God's words and follow one whose command is "hasty/excessive", which could imply a call is being made for more than what is in God's scripture.
It is interesting to note that AQ is positive on those who "call on their Lord morning and evening" and is negative upon turning such people/practice away.
Thoughts?
Note The above assumes what is being referred to is the regular/timed salat/bond. This is what it is taken to mean in the traditional exegesis.
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What is crystal clear however, is that to turn such people away is wrong, and in 1827-28 the messenger is told to have patience with the "call on their Lord morning and evening" people and the context implies firmly not to be tempted to change God's words and follow one whose command is "hasty/excessive", which could imply a call is being made for more than what is in God's scripture.
Yep, that's pretty much how I read it too.
It is interesting to note that AQ is positive on those who "call on their Lord morning and evening" and is negative upon turning such people/practice away.
And this includes non-muslims as well, in my opinion. I think the verses may be referring to people who were not the Prophet's followers, otherwise the verse would make less sense.
Thanks for your insight.
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I think the verses may be referring to people who were not the Prophet's followers, otherwise the verse would make less sense.
Yes, it's possible that AQ brought various practices together, and what was important was the purity of the calling upon their Lord (i.e. who they called on), not the number of times or who they were.
This would explain the variance in early Islam on "how many salat" and also would match with my recent studies into AQ which have implied by the end of the completion of God's favour, a confederation of sorts was forming amongst the community of believers, regardless of what they called themselves. This is also discussed in Fred Donner's book http//depositfiles.com/files/galflpa73
Also, I just realised, that the singular is often used giving more than two times per day for glorification/praise. Initially, I thought this was because the messenger would glorify/praise more than the average person or because it was necessary to the mission, but it may also be because the messenger was from a people or did things his own way amongst a mix of people who also did the same. In other words, it was never a case of there is only one right way or only certain times are right, AQ may have been accepting of variations. Just some thoughts.
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Salaam Wakas,
AQ = al quran
These verses are addressed in the singular (i.e. to the messenger)
And do not turn away those who call on their Lord at dawn and dusk seeking His presence; not is on you anything of their account, nor (on them) anything of your account; if you turn them away, then you will be of the wrongdoers. And it is such that We test them with one another, so that they may say "Are these the ones whom God has favoured from amongst us?" Is God not aware of the thankful?
When I read (i.e. to the messenger) as you wrote above, it gives the impression to me that in 652-53
"And do not turn away those who call on their Lord at dawn and dusk seeking His presence"
You and me can turn away, but not the messenger?
"not is on you anything of their account, nor (on them) anything of your account;"
Was it on me or you anything of their account and not on the messenger?
"if you turn them away, then you will be of the wrongdoers"
If you or we turn away from them, then it is ok?
It give a different look to me when I add (i.e. to the messenger). I believe, Allah knows how to address the messenger by saying "Ya ayyuha AlRasoolu". Please think. hmm
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth. pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Yep, that's pretty much how I read it too.
And this includes non-muslims as well, in my opinion. I think the verses may be referring to people who were not the Prophet's followers, otherwise the verse would make less sense.
Thanks for your insight.
what do you mean includes non-muslims? how wouldn't it make sense? care to clarify
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peace mmkhan,
Well, the singular is often used in this way. If as you say "Allah knows how to address the messenger by saying "Ya ayyuha AlRasoolu", Allah also knows how to use the plural Also 1827-28 implies more so that it refers to the messenger. It is natural to refer to the authority at the time, and that is the messenger/prophet.
Although even if it does not, it does not change the message much.
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Salaaman Wakas,
peace mmkhan,
Well, the singular is often used in this way.
How about "Qul" , there are so many in AlQuraan? Like, "Qul huwaAllahu ahad...", "Qul RabbizZidni Ilma" and many more.
If as you say "Allah knows how to address the messenger by saying "Ya ayyuha AlRasoolu", Allah also knows how to use the plural
I agree handshake
Also 1827-28 implies more so that it refers to the messenger. It is natural to refer to the authority at the time, and that is the messenger/prophet.
Now? Whom is it referring to?
Although even if it does not, it does not change the message much.
???
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
what do you mean includes non-muslims? how wouldn't it make sense? care to clarify
Yep, sure (btw, I didn't say it wouldn't make sense, merely it makes more sense if you include non-muslims in the verse).
And do not turn away those who call on their Lord at dawn and dusk seeking His presence;
"And do not turn away" strikes me as an odd thing to say to a person who prays twice a day anyway. It's like me and you are both muslims and both pray twice a day, and Allah says to me, "do not turn away from her". Why would I turn away from someone who is both muslim and prays just like me? The verse makes more sense if the "those who call on their Lord and dawn and dusk" are somehow not the followers of Muhammad, but still pray twice a day. Then the command makes a bit more sense. Don't turn away from those people who pray twice a day, regardless if they do not follow that which you follow.
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Salaam,
And this includes non-muslims as well, in my opinion. I think the verses may be referring to people who were not the Prophet's followers, otherwise the verse would make less sense.
Good point Mushu, MashaAllah.
Allah made everything very very clear and specific and if this aayat is open that means it includes all.
At the moment I agree with you bro, but still I have to work out on that D
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
peace all,
I was just thinking, in the traditions associated with these verses they dont mention any negativity about the practice, rather just the people. This to me seems a little odd, considering this seems like a prime opportunity to critique the two salat per day (since they take it to refer to salat). If they were trying to supplant two for more, then you cant get a better opportunity than this, but they didn't take it.
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Peace Wakas
Now, AQ does not refer to the people as lowly/poor, but talks about their practice, as if that is the differentiating characteristic, thus would directly imply there was hostility to those who "call on their Lord morning and evening". Whether the hostility is to the practice or the people, or both is not crystal clear.
Here is the very important statement by Almighty in both verses quoted by you
And do not turn away those who call on their Lord at dawn and dusk seeking His presence;
And have patience upon yourself with those who call on their Lord at dawn and dusk seeking His presence,
God is teaching us ??not to turn away?? or ??have patience upon yourself with those?? who seeking His presence, meaning Him Alone, meaning Worshiping Him Alone?Therefore it?s crystal clear it is all about the peolpe and their practice and dedicating it to God Alone no matter who they are.
Based on that principal said in above therefore the second teaching is that we should force ourselves to be only with those who seeking Him Alone even if we might find it hard some times for any reason?.It?s important to be with those who seeking Him Alone.
These two verses highlight the core of our belief to be with whom for what reason.
Peace
Asana -
Salat, in the begining, the salat was obligatory at night, god gave the range of time for that salat, and when it's supposed to be done half or third of the night ,
O thou wrapped up in thy raiment! (1) Keep vigil the night long, save a little - (2) A half thereof, or abate a little thereof (3) Or add (a little) thereto - and chant the Qur'an in measure 731-4it became not neccessary the half of thirds of the night, but as much time as you can,
Lo! thy Lord knoweth how thou keepest vigil sometimes nearly two-thirds of the night, or (sometimes) half or a third thereof, as do a party of those with thee. Allah measureth the night and the day. He knoweth that ye count it not, and turneth unto you in mercy. Recite, then, of the Qur'an that which is easy for you 7320Than it became the 3 salat obligaotry, morning , evening and night
Remember the name of thy Lord at morn and evening. (25) And worship Him (a portion) of the night. And glorify Him through the livelong night. 7625-26Therefor (O Muhammad) bear with what they say, and hymn the praise of thy Lord before the rising and before the setting of the sun; (39) And in the night-time hymn His praise, and after the (prescribed) prostrations. 503940
Than, this is the regulation of the times of salat, morning, and evening, when the sun touches down in the horizon is named Isha, and the opposite one is called Fajr, and tha salat of the night became Nafila.
Establish Salat at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed, And some part of the night awake for it, a largess for thee. It may be that thy Lord will raise thee to a praised estate. 1778-79Another reminder for the times of salat, both ends of the day wich are closest to the night, morning and evening, still the same time range.
Establish worship at the two ends of the day and the close parts of the night. Lo! good deeds annul ill-deeds. This is reminder for the mindful. 11114O ye who believe! Remember Allah with much remembrance, And glorify Him early and late. 3341-42
Then have patience (O Muhammad). Lo! the promise of Allah is true. And ask forgiveness of thy sin, and hymn the praise of thy Lord late in the day and in the early hours 4055
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Salaam loxbox13,
Salat, in the begining, the salat was obligatory at night, god gave the range of time for that salat, and when it's supposed to be done half or third of the night ,
O thou wrapped up in thy raiment! (1) Keep vigil the night long, save a little - (2) A half thereof, or abate a little thereof (3) Or add (a little) thereto - and chant the Qur'an in measure 731-4hmm
What is the name of this Salaat brother as I don't see any name?
BTW, what is the purpose of this post on this thread, I really don't understand what you want to say. Can you please clarify?
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Peace
@ loxbox
I hold a similar view. Just as much as the Quran is not a static document, but rather a dynamic one, so too the salat is not a static concept, but rather a dynamic one. The Quran must necessarily provide for communities and individuals at any evolutionary stage in their development to find their way to the desired path or goal that the Quran suggests. It cannot achieve this by being static, and niether can the concepts contained within the quran be static. Dynamism is the only way this can be achieved. Without such dynamism, the message would be tied down in time, space and to a very narrow range of communities.
@ mmkhan
I don't think that we should be over dependent on names being given to a particular salat in the Quran in order to accept it as valid. In fact, "many of the "names" that appear in the Quran could possibly be understood by what they describe rather than the proper noun ascribed to them.
We should be open to a relative understanding of the message rather than an absolute one.
Imraan
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Salaam loxbox13,
hmm
What is the name of this Salaat brother as I don't see any name?
BTW, what is the purpose of this post on this thread, I really don't understand what you want to say. Can you please clarify?
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth pr
Mohammed M. KhanI didn't say sdyialat ritual way, but the salat that is connected to times, education of the quran, or reading of the quran, or study the quran, or prostrating and praising, that isn't what the thread is about, but the timed salats, it's about salat mawkouta, times salat as translated
this is what i learned from the quran and it doesn't mean i have the truth, but between me and myself i have the truth until i find an answer that satisfy my mind better.
right now i seen two times of salat
there are different salats meanings, i believe it's a multiple meanings word. -
Salaam Imraan,
@ mmkhan
I don't think that we should be over dependent on names being given to a particular salat in the Quran in order to accept it as valid. In fact, "many of the "names" that appear in the Quran could possibly be understood by what they describe rather than the proper noun ascribed to them.
We should be open to a relative understanding of the message rather than an absolute one.
Imraan
I think the other way bro. I believe that each and every word in AlQuraan is very specific and particularly used. It is not like other books, so we cannot take it as general and its overall meanings.
Each word used is used in purpose for some reason, we have to ponder on and try to understand the correct meaning of every used word by Allah's help.
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth. pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam loxbox13,
this is what i learned from the quran and it doesn't mean i have the truth, but between me and myself i have the truth until i find an answer that satisfy my mind better.
Correct! Please look at the following
10109
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until Allah judges. And He is the best of judges.
right now i seen two times of salat
I do the same bro.
there are different salats meanings, i believe it's a multiple meanings word.
I believe that there is no multiple meaning word used in AlQuraan. If it so, it could show two or more ways then.
Everybody will follow a meaning suitable and satisfactory to him. We cannot follow what we like, but we have to understand what Allah want from us and that is not possible with multiple meanings words.
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth. pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Peace Mohammed,
I am in agreement with you about the Quran being specific in its use of terminology. I think you misunderstood my point. What I am saying is that just because something is not given a name, it does not mean it does not exist.
Also my reference to relativity and absoltutism does not in any way point to being haphazard about what things mean in the Quran. In fact, I am saying that we should investigate all possibilities in order to arrive at a very specific meaning that the Quran gives.
Relativity does not equal generalisation, nor does absolutism equal specificity.
Imraan
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Salaam 1LNF,
Sorry for misunderstanding.
I am in agreement with you about the Quran being specific in its use of terminology. I think you misunderstood my point. What I am saying is that just because something is not given a name, it does not mean it does not exist.
True, I agree with you brother.
Also my reference to relativity and absoltutism does not in any way point to being haphazard about what things mean in the Quran. In fact, I am saying that we should investigate all possibilities in order to arrive at a very specific meaning that the Quran gives.
I agree, even I do the same with Allah's help.
Relativity does not equal generalisation, nor does absolutism equal specificity.
Are you a teacher of English language?
May Allah guide us all towards His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam loxbox13,
Correct! Please look at the following
10109
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until Allah judges. And He is the best of judges.
I do the same bro.
I believe that there is no multiple meaning word used in AlQuraan. If it so, it could show two or more ways then.
Everybody will follow a meaning suitable and satisfactory to him. We cannot follow what we like, but we have to understand what Allah want from us and that is not possible with multiple meanings words.
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth. pr
Mohammed M. KhanWhat i meants by , i have the truth until i find better, meaning, right now i believe there is 2 salats, few months ago i believed they're 3 , so i'm not gonna wait until i find the ultimate truth to live my life, so to me, it's progress, understanding better with time. I heard people a while ago saying there's only 2 salats, but i couldn't agree that time, i couldn't see it , it took me time to realise what i understand now.
What i mean about a word has multiple meanings in general, not in the sentence, for example, la hand of god , does it mean also power or possesion ? everywhere hand seems to mean wealth and power and possesion, except in sourah joseph where women cut the hands, sounded to me like a hand, the one with 5 fingers
I might be wrong in these too, because i realised lately after verifying your posts, that i had figured many things wrong. thatnks for the many correction specially giving the verses so i could verify how true your posts were
