Quraanites or whatever...
-
Wa Alaikum Salaam Anti,
I agree but the point e)Are you sure Salaat was not recorded in AlQuraan? What do you say about the following
1689
1689 And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Book as a clarification for all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings to those who have submitted.
Does all things mean 'excluding Salaat'?
nope cause,
638
638 And there is not a creature on the earth, nor a bird that flies with its wings, except they belong to nations like you belong. We did not leave anything out of the Book; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
Where did you get 'FOLLOW' from, you quoted above to 'OBEY' the messenger.
Again you quoted the translation of 2454 as 'Obey the messenger' but again you wrote 'Follow him' in your last line.
Please decide first, are you saying we have 'to follow the messenger' or 'to obey the messenger'? Then we will discuss further, inshaAllah.
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path pr
Mohammed M. KhanNice one mmkham but the book is Al Quran or the one wich is with God hmm
-
Salaam Afridi,
Thank you bro,
Nice one mmkham but the book is Al Quran or the one wich is with God hmm
mmkham hmm
Anyway, to understand what exactly AlKitaab is, please follow
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601702.msg268251#msg268251May Allah guide us all towards the Truth. pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Assalamu Alaikum,
Brother/Sister, whatever the meaning of Salat be, Muhammad (sm) had to obey the command for it. And whatever method he applied, and whatever meaning he took, to obey the command must be from Allah. Because Muhammad (sm) was allowed to follow anything other than WAHY . Now you see, Those were not included in the Quran. However Allah commanded us to follow the messenger.
Correction Because Muhammad (sm) was not allowed to follow anything other than WAHY
-
But how you know how Mohamad peace be upon him prayed,
Assalamu Alaikum.
Brother, I belive the transmission source of Al-QURAN. Whoever transmitted the QURAN to other person knew how important is how Mohammad (SM) prayed.
If he was honest in transmitting Quran, he must have transmitted the method of Salat also.If I believe in the source, I must believe both Al-Quran, and the method of Salat.
Thank you.
-
Wa Alaikum Salaam Anti,
I agree but the point e)Are you sure Salaat was not recorded in AlQuraan? What do you say about the following
1689
1689 And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these. And We have sent down to you the Book as a clarification for all things, and a guidance and a mercy and good tidings to those who have submitted.
Does all things mean 'excluding Salaat'?
nope cause,
638
638 And there is not a creature on the earth, nor a bird that flies with its wings, except they belong to nations like you belong. We did not leave anything out of the Book; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
Dear brother, Allah did not leave out Salat & the method of Salat from the book. HE just included the method into the command "obey/follow messenger".
Many commands have been included in that command.
I belive the transmission source of Al-QURAN. Whoever transmitted the QURAN to other person knew how important is how Mohammad (SM) prayed. If he was honest in transmitting Quran, he must have honestly transmitted the method of Salat also. And the first generation transmitted Quran and what they learnt from Muhammad (sm) to the next generation as a daily practice as commanded by the Quran. It, then, must be a part of their culture. You can understand by comparing the views of Shias and Sunnis about Salat. They disagree in so many points. But they do not disagree in the basic points of traditional Salat. Somebody in this forum called it visual transmission. I liked the term.
If I believe in the source, I must believe both Al-Quran, and the method of Salat.
(You know, Al-Quran could have been manipulated. Who told you it was not? I can tell you that somebody has changed some ayats (mention any) and then he has injected the ayats that say that Allah's ayats cannot be changed, or Allah will preserve this Ayats. However, I know that this impossible. Because Al-Quran have been transmitted not only as a book, but also as a culture.)Thank you.
-
Dear brother, Allah did not leave out Salat & the method of Salat from the book. HE just included the method into the command "obey/follow messenger".
Brother, if you take a close look at 638, you will notice the two words "AlKitaab" and "Shai-in" .
638
638 And there is not a creature on the earth, nor a bird that flies with its wings, except they belong to nations like you belong. We did not leave anything out of the Book; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
It means, NO THING IS LEFT OUT OF THE BOOK. Not as you say brother, but EVERYTHING is mentioned in THE BOOK.
Many commands have been included in that command.
BTW, how can you obey Prophet Mohammed now? If you say through hadeeth, then actually you will be obeying Bukhari not Prophet Mohammed.
I belive the transmission source of Al-QURAN. Whoever transmitted the QURAN to other person knew how important is how Mohammad (SM) prayed. If he was honest in transmitting Quran, he must have honestly transmitted the method of Salat also. And the first generation transmitted Quran and what they learnt from Muhammad (sm) to the next generation as a daily practice as commanded by the Quran. It, then, must be a part of their culture. You can understand by comparing the views of Shias and Sunnis about Salat. They disagree in so many points. But they do not disagree in the basic points of traditional Salat. Somebody in this forum called it visual transmission. I liked the term.
If I believe in the source, I must believe both Al-Quran, and the method of Salat.
(You know, Al-Quran could have been manipulated. Who told you it was not? I can tell you that somebody has changed some ayats (mention any) and then he has injected the ayats that say that Allah's ayats cannot be changed, or Allah will preserve this Ayats. However, I know that this impossible. Because Al-Quran have been transmitted not only as a book, but also as a culture.)I don't take it a source as you do. But I believe that transmitters are NOT responsible to deliver AlQuraan correctly, but Allah does.
159
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
One may ask what is Zikr?
2150
2150 And this is a blessed reminder which We have sent down. Will you be deniers of it?
I don't know any aayat about the source being protected or hadeeth or any other book is protected by Allah.
2170
2170 And when they are told Follow what Allah has sent down, they say No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing! What if their fathers did not comprehend anything and were not guided?
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path. pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Assalamu Alaikum.
Brother, if you take a close look at 638, you will notice the two words "AlKitaab" and "Shai-in" .
638
638 And there is not a creature on the earth, nor a bird that flies with its wings, except they belong to nations like you belong. We did not leave anything out of the Book; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
It means, NO THING IS LEFT OUT OF THE BOOK. Not as you say brother, but EVERYTHING is mentioned in THE BOOK.
But, Brother, 638 does not mean that there is the description in the QURAN about how to make a computer. As long as the Quran remains simple to understand (of course always it is), we can mention many many things which are definitely not mentioned in the Quran. This is the very simple thing that I understand. So, probably it is not the actual meaning of the verse that nothing has been left out of the Book.
Then there comes another question regarding this ayat did Quran mention the portion We did not leave anything out of the Book without any context? Separately?
The reason behind my question is that, suppose you said
John, kemal, and Muna misbehaved with me. I will not let go anyone unpunished.Do you mean by "anyone" that you want to punish everyone of the world? Definitely, NO!
Just keeping this example in mind, please let us discuss the ayat in question
The complete ayat is
638>>Translated by Edip-Layth
There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.
Look carefully. Here, "anything" has a relation with any creature among that on the earth and that in the sky mentioned in the first portion of the complete verse. Again, this "anything" has a relation with "they" in the last part {{then to their Lord they will be summoned}}.
So, in my sense, "We did not leave anything out of the Book" does not actually mean what you thought it does.
BTW, how can you obey Prophet Mohammed now? If you say through hadeeth, then actually you will be obeying Bukhari not Prophet Mohammed.
Another excellent question.
Brother, do you know that before the formal collection of Hadiths by Bukhari, Muslim, Hambali, etc., there formed the Hanafi madhab, Shafei Madhab and Maliki Madhab? Is this not very interesting?
It means that before there were any formal hadith collection, three Madhabs had already formed. They used the visual transmissions of the practices of Muhammad (sm). Listen, they were among only the second and third generation of Islam, if you think that the first generation was that of Muhammad (sm) and the Sahaba. In the period of Sahaba, the system of Salat (I take Salat for example, whereas I could take example for Zakat, too) must have been established in the society, whatever the meaning of Salat is. So, everywhere there were the daily practice of the System of Salat (and other system commanded by Islam, and duly practiced by Muhammad (sm)). I assumed this based upon only the importance given by the concerned quranic ayats.
To get to this conclusion, You don't even need to believe in the history or HADITH! You can simply read related quranic ayats, and these can be easily calculated.
I don't take it a source as you do. But I believe that transmitters are NOT responsible to deliver AlQuraan correctly, but Allah does.
Brother, can you tell me why would you believe in QURAN? You know the persians could have changed the QURAN. How do you know for sure?
In the Quran, there are some Ayats that say that Allah's ayat cannot be altered, or, Allah will preserve the Quran...If I say that originally these ayats were not in the Quran, but actually the Persians (for example;...) have altered the Quran, and after that, they have inserted the ayats inside the Quran, so that no one doubts them of altering the Quran, how would you defend?
What gives you such assurance that Allah really originally reveled that none can alter these ayats?
And brother, I am really sorry, I could not present "the example of father" clearly. The father in the ayat you mentioned, and the father in my example has no relation with each other.
However, if second reading of that example does not help you, please leave that. Follow/obey debate is a very silly debate. Follow whatever meaning you like.
That's all for today. Thank you very much for your time.
Please pray for me.
-
Wa Alaikum Salaam bro,
Assalamu Alaikum.
But, Brother, 638 does not mean that there is the description in the QURAN about how to make a computer.
It could mean that Allah or you are a liar. You have to decide. If we don't understand anything or don't have a knowledge of anything, it does not mean that it is not there.
Remember this brother
1039
1039 No, they have denied about that which they had no knowledge, nor has its explanation come to them. It is also how those before them denied, so see how was the retribution of the wicked!
It means, even if we don't have knowledge or we don't get the result for anything, we cannot deny it.
Just take a look at this
965
965 He taught man what he did not know.
Does this include your computer?
Or how about this?
752
752 And We have come to them with a Book which We have detailed on knowledge of guidance and a mercy to those who believe.
If still you did not get the answer, you have to wait, till Allah get you the answer. And you don't have to look up hadeeth for the same, you are not gonna get your question answered there.
10109
10109 And follow what is being inspired to you and be patient until Allah judges. And He is the best of judges.
As long as the Quran remains simple to understand (of course always it is), we can mention many many things which are definitely not mentioned in the Quran. This is the very simple thing that I understand. So, probably it is not the actual meaning of the verse that nothing has been left out of the Book.
Where did you get this brother that "the Quran remains simple to understand"?
Then there comes another question regarding this ayat did Quran mention the portion We did not leave anything out of the Book without any context? Separately?
The reason behind my question is that, suppose you said
John, kemal, and Muna misbehaved with me. I will not let go anyone unpunished.Do you mean by "anyone" that you want to punish everyone of the world? Definitely, NO!
Just keeping this example in mind, please let us discuss the ayat in question
The complete ayat is
638>>Translated by Edip-Layth
There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.
Look carefully. Here, "anything" has a relation with any creature among that on the earth and that in the sky mentioned in the first portion of the complete verse. Again, this "anything" has a relation with "they" in the last part {{then to their Lord they will be summoned}}.
So, in my sense, "We did not leave anything out of the Book" does not actually mean what you thought it does.
You answer the question yourself brother. Please look at the highlighted/red part in your quote above.
Another excellent question.
Brother, do you know that before the formal collection of Hadiths by Bukhari, Muslim, Hambali, etc., there formed the Hanafi madhab, Shafei Madhab and Maliki Madhab? Is this not very interesting?
I don't take history as a source of guidance brother.
It means that before there were any formal hadith collection, three Madhabs had already formed.
I heard four Madhabs not three. You missed Hambali Madhab I hope.
They used the visual transmissions of the practices of Muhammad (sm). Listen, they were among only the second and third generation of Islam, if you think that the first generation was that of Muhammad (sm) and the Sahaba. In the period of Sahaba, the system of Salat (I take Salat for example, whereas I could take example for Zakat, too) must have been established in the society, whatever the meaning of Salat is. So, everywhere there were the daily practice of the System of Salat (and other system commanded by Islam, and duly practiced by Muhammad (sm)). I assumed this based upon only the importance given by the concerned quranic ayats.
IF as you said they used the "Visual Transmissions of the Practices of Mohammed(AS)" why they have differences in the same example you have taken i.e., Salaat?
I believe that Prophet Mohammed was a true follower of AlKitaab, that means he cannot invent a way out of the Book.
To get to this conclusion, You don't even need to believe in the history or HADITH! You can simply read related quranic ayats, and these can be easily calculated.
Related Quranic aayaats for Hanafi, Shafayi, Maliki and Hambali? I did not understand what you mean here brother, can you please rephrase your above sentence please.
Brother, can you tell me why would you believe in QURAN? You know the persians could have changed the QURAN. How do you know for sure?
In the Quran, there are some Ayats that say that Allah's ayat cannot be altered, or, Allah will preserve the Quran...If I say that originally these ayats were not in the Quran, but actually the Persians (for example;...) have altered the Quran, and after that, they have inserted the ayats inside the Quran, so that no one doubts them of altering the Quran, how would you defend?
What gives you such assurance that Allah really originally reveled that none can alter these ayats?
1829
1829 And say The truth is from your Lord, so let whoever desires believe, and whoever desires reject. We have prepared for the wicked a Fire whose walls will be surrounding them. And if they cry out, they are given a water like boiling oil which burns their faces. What a dreadful drink and what a miserable place!
And there are people out there who don't even believe in their Creator, Allah, let AlQuraan aside. Somethings we have to believe otherwise we will be in trouble, like how do we know that our father is actually our father?
Besides this if you ask me my personal experience in regards to same, I have studied it by Allah's help. There are lot of challenges in AlQuraan that I have taken a try for, but failed. For example
223
224223 And if you are in doubt as to what We have sent down to Our servant, then bring a chapter like this, and call upon your witnesses other than God if you are truthful.
224 And if you cannot do this; and you will not be able to do this; then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, it has been prepared for the rejecters.Take a try on this, or
482
482 Do they not reflect on the Quraan? If it was from any other than Allah they would have found in it many a discrepancy.
That means there is NO contradiction in AlQuraan, try to find one.
I tried them myself and I was forced to believe that AlQuraan is from Allah, the Knowledgeable, the Knower of all things.
And brother, I am really sorry, I could not present "the example of father" clearly. The father in the ayat you mentioned, and the father in my example has no relation with each other.
However, if second reading of that example does not help you, please leave that. Follow/obey debate is a very silly debate. Follow whatever meaning you like.
Brother still I see the same when I read "I was certain that this was from my father, then I followed the orders" from your example?
That's all for today. Thank you very much for your time.
Please pray for me.
InshaAllah, I will but also remember the following
4060
4060 And your Lord said Call on Me and I will respond to you. Surely, those who are too arrogant to serve Me, they will enter Hell, humbled.
After all HE answered Iblees too when he ask time until the Day of Judgement ;D
Sorry for the long post.
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Dear brother, Allah did not leave out Salat & the method of Salat from the book. HE just included the method into the command "obey/follow messenger".
Many commands have been included in that command.
but where is the messenger who we should obey or follow? has anybody seen him lately?