Hot/"ramadan" Answer

hope4

It started off well but the rest... confused

Selam

Yes I agree with you here. Seemed near the end to go off on a tangent with some very strong claims. It is for this reason I have asked for some people with good knowledge of arabic to read and maybe someone could start a thread on it to see if the claims are true or not.

Peace

unknownuser

As you may know, the sun and the moon are on opposite sides of the earth.

This is not true.

ayman

This is not true.

Tell this to NASA

Anytime the Moon is full the Sun and the Moon are on opposite sides of the Earth. If one is high in the sky, as the Sun will be near the beginning of summer, the other must be low.

From

http//science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2000/ast14jun_1/

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

Yes, ONLY on the full moon.

ayman

Yes, ONLY on the full moon.

EXACTLY.

Layth

Salam,

There can only be one month of Ramadhan and that it is the winter month in which the Quran was revealed.

If you are not in the northern hemepshere (or on earth) then you cannot "witness" that month and the fast is not required of these believers.

siki

Salam,

There can only be one month of Ramadhan and that it is the winter month in which the Quran was revealed.

If you are not in the northern hemisphere (or on earth) then you cannot "witness" that month and the fast is not required of these believers.

Peace Bro

I read your article regarding Qadr/jesus conception/Ramadhan, and my opinion is that your winter Ramadhan postulate is not all convincing. I think Ayman's scorching full moon is the way to go.

siki

Layth

Peace Siki,

I read your article regarding Qadr/jesus conception/Ramadhan, and my opinion is that your winter Ramadhan postulate is not all convincing. I think Ayman's scorching full moon is the way to go.

If I agreed with the scortching moon theory then I would not continue to post as I do on the winter timing P

Ramadhan from my analysis can only occur during the month of the longest night(s). The scortching moon theory is very shaky.

ayman

Peace Layth,

If I agreed with the scortching moon theory then I would not continue to post as I do on the winter timing P
Ramadhan from my analysis can only occur during the month of the longest night(s). The scortching moon theory is very shaky.

You would have a point if it wasn't for one minor inconvenience ), which is that in Arabic the word "ramadan" means "scorching heat". Perhaps according to your winter solstice theory it would have been not shaky if the god described it as /"baradan" (cold) instead of /"ramadan" (scorching heat). )

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

unknownuser

Let's say someone woke up on an island like Hawaii or regardless if Anchorage Alaska observing sun and moon cycles.

Mauna Loa, Maui County, Hawaii (longitude W157.2, latitude N21.1)
10 October 2011 Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time
http//www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us

Phase of the Moon on 10 October 2011 waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.

Moonrise 519 p.m. (Full-moon before sunset repeats every 12 cycles)
Sunset 609 p.m.

2185 full moon Ra-Miim-Dad = to be blasted by the sun. (both visible at same time)

http//oi53.tinypic.com/11s1hrp.jpg

Full moon is visible in the east while the sun is still visible in the west before sunset and cycle repeats every 12 cycles (e.g. next one is 28 September 2012) and no need for intercalation/adding a 13th every 3rd year which Qur'an prohibits or skipping count/ignoring..

The above seems plausible if not for existence of Archduke Rainer's Papyri Collection PERF 558

http//query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F40A12F83C5B10738DDDA10994DD405B8484F0D3

http//aleph18.onb.ac.at/F/IMQQS86YHSLXQQ4D4NABY25AGTLIUMBHDGXLI8CUFXQ2F1DMJB-51951?func=find-acc&acc_sequence=000011467

Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643 CE. The date fits with two of the most commonly available conversion tables those of Caetani and of Freeman-Grenville.?? They make the last day of Jumada I equate with 26th April, 643 CE

21-Jul 439 PM New Moon
23-Jul Ramadan 1st Day
05-Aug Full moon 547 PM
http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=643&n=214

When calculating forward aligns with today's practice?

AH
22 0 0 643
23 354.36708 0.970224911 643.9702249
24 708.73416 1.940449822 644.9404498
.
.
.

1431 499303.2157 1367.0469 2010.0469
1432 499657.5828 1368.017124 2011.017124

CE AH First day Full moon
2011 1432 1 August 13 August 958 PM

This is Noon btw, had email/password issues and needed a new pseudo.

Peace
SEid -- Mr. Holiday

unknownuser

Let's say someone woke up on an island like Hawaii or regardless if Anchorage Alaska observing sun and moon cycles.

Mauna Loa, Maui County, Hawaii (longitude W157.2, latitude N21.1)
10 October 2011 Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time
http//www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us

Phase of the Moon on 10 October 2011 waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.

Moonrise 519 p.m. (Full-moon before sunset repeats every 12 cycles)
Sunset 609 p.m.

That's not it for the same holds true in prior and preceding months; might be a different pattern I've not had a chance to analyze throughly.

Here is PERF 558 which unless a forgery it clearly spells out that shahr was a lunar month at least in 643 CE...

http//oi52.tinypic.com/1zz5l4x.jpg

szuberi

Is it not possible that the verse where it says "black thread from the white thread" is a metaphorical reference towards truth becoming clear from falsehood. Further, eating and drinking may also mean consumption in a metaphorical sense.

In 1926, Mary has been eating and drinking while in a state of "fasting/sayam"

My personal issue with this is that how come "fasting" which is supposed to make us "righteous/mutaqeen", is used as a punishment by God throughout the Quran. There are many verses where it is said that we should fast based on a prohibited act.

ayman

Peace Noon/Eid,

2185 full moon Ra-Miim-Dad = to be blasted by the sun. (both visible at same time)
Full moon is visible in the east while the sun is still visible in the west before sunset and cycle repeats every 12 cycles (e.g. next one is 28 September 2012) and no need for intercalation/adding a 13th every 3rd year which Qur'an prohibits or skipping count/ignoring..

This is not how the god tells us to observe the full-moon

084.016
YUSUFALI So I do call to witness the ruddy glow of Sunset;
PICKTHAL Oh, I swear by the afterglow of sunset,
SHAKIR But nay! I swear by the sunset redness,
084.017
YUSUFALI The Night and its Homing;
PICKTHAL And by the night and all that it enshroudeth,
SHAKIR And the night and that which it drives on,
084.018
YUSUFALI And the Moon in her fullness
PICKTHAL And by the moon when she is at the full,
SHAKIR And the moon when it grows full,

As per above here are the steps
Step 1 See the after glow of sunset
Step 2 See the night driving on from the opposite direction
Step 3 From that direction the symmetric full-moon will appear.

So clearly the god tells us that the actual full-moon appears right after sunset.

The above seems plausible if not for existence of Archduke Rainer's Papyri Collection PERF 558
http//query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F40A12F83C5B10738DDDA10994DD405B8484F0D3
http//aleph18.onb.ac.at/F/IMQQS86YHSLXQQ4D4NABY25AGTLIUMBHDGXLI8CUFXQ2F1DMJB-51951?func=find-acc&acc_sequence=000011467
Grohmann worked out "30 Pharmouthi of the indiction year 1" to be 25th April, 643 CE. The date fits with two of the most commonly available conversion tables those of Caetani and of Freeman-Grenville.?? They make the last day of Jumada I equate with 26th April, 643 CE
21-Jul 439 PM New Moon
23-Jul Ramadan 1st Day
05-Aug Full moon 547 PM
http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=643&n=214
When calculating forward aligns with today's practice?
AH
22 0 0 643
23 354.36708 0.970224911 643.9702249
24 708.73416 1.940449822 644.9404498
.
1431 499303.2157 1367.0469 2010.0469
1432 499657.5828 1368.017124 2011.017124
CE AH First day Full moon
2011 1432 1 August 13 August 958 PM

If you notice PERF558 doesn?t mention ?Hijri?. It just says ?the year 22?. So we don?t know what this calendar dating is based on. So we don?t know how many years had passed between the prophet?s death and the invention of the calendar or even the unknown event that it was based on.

Here is what we also know from manuscripts about Umar I the alleged inventor of the calendar (From the writings of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai around 680CE)

The second king who arises from Ishmael is a lover of Israel. He restores their breaches and the breaches of the Temple. He hews Mount Moriah, makes it level and builds a ?hishtahawaya? (temple) there on the Temple rock, as it is said "Your nest is set in the rock."

According to this physical evidence Umar I was a Zionist who championed the primary Zionist cause of restoring the temple. This is how his actions and their motivations should be viewed. The Hijri calendar uses the crescent like the Jewish calendar. So the months would start and end at the same time. However, for the Jews the intercalation is the function of the Rabbinical authority and the Jews were not going to give up this authority to the state. Umar ensured this by doing away with intercalation for the state calendar.

Here is PERF 558 which unless a forgery it clearly spells out that shahr was a lunar month at least in 643 CE...

We know that in pre-Islamic times the word used for ?month? is ?yarkh? or ?warkh?

552CE
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
Month = ?yarkh?, Month name = Zu A'allan

326CE
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/namarah.html
Month = ?warkh?, Month name = Kaslul.

267CE
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.htm
Month = ?yarkh?, Month name = Tammouz

So we know that in PERF558 this is a post-Islamic meaning different to the pre-Islamic one (the great reading should be understood as a pre-Islamic text).

Peace,

Ayman

Q_student

Peace Layth,

You would have a point if it wasn't for one minor inconvenience ), which is that in Arabic the word "ramadan" means "scorching heat". Perhaps according to your winter solstice theory it would have been not shaky if the god described it as /"baradan" (cold) instead of /"ramadan" (scorching heat). )

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

The word "Ramadhaan " cannot be translated because it is a "Proper noun" used by the Qurank. As a matter of principle proper nouns are never translated Keep this in mind.

ramzi

The word "Ramadhaan " cannot be translated because it is a "Proper noun" used by the Qurank. As a matter of principle proper nouns are never translated Keep this in mind.

' ' . .. ..

..

mohamad_itani

salam,
this subject has every one thinking for a long time,what if we take the quran alone ,how will we know when is ramadan.
i think the more obvious is the better.we dont really need alot of scientific theory to figure out when is ramadan.
it must be something obvious else we will go into taweel and we dont want to do that.
to know when is ramadan then we need a sign right,the only sign you can get in nature is when we change the season from winter to spring ,we see the trees getting green again.well it is Allah giving life again to the plants.
Ramadan has to do with spring for ramad means spring as clear as that no need to for Nuclear physics.now we still have one problem ,when is the month we now we do have the season but when does the month start?
Allah Subhanah gave us another sighn to know the starting of the month and that is the new moon.when we first see it then we are in ramadan.
every where on earth does share the season change in the north hami the snow will melt and the birds are back,the treas will start to get grean.south hami the same thing spring does have that season change too.so the next sign will be the moon .who ever sees it then must fast that month .yes the whole month,as for the year with thirteen moon cycles.true we do have thirteen moon cycles during that year every eleven years or so but that is we dont have thriteen full moon life cycle,only a beginning of a new cycle.so we dont have full thirteen months in one year never.as we know now the moon cycle is only used for ramadan and money issues.
as for laylat el qadr ,well it does not have to do with the quran.it could mean something else too.who knows.it was not clear in the aya what was sent down with laylat el qadr.all it says is that it was el rouh and almalaikat.that is all.
Allah knows best.

truthseeker171

Ramadan has to do with spring for ramad means spring as clear as that no need to for Nuclear physics.

so the next sign will be the moon .who ever sees it then must fast that month .yes the whole month,

Salaam

The meaning of the word -ramadan-

to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast -

Lane's Lexicon does not mention the meaning -spring- for the word -ramadan-.

quote from http//www.med.umich.edu/diversity/pdffiles/ramadan.pdf

... In the pre-Islamic Arabic calendar, the month of Ramadan fell during the heat of summer.
The word Ramadan means ?scorcher? in Arabic. The early Arabic calendar, like the
current Islamic calendar, was lunar. Because a lunar month has only 29 or 30 days, a year
of 12 lunar months falls short of the 365 days in a solar calendar. In the pre-Islamic
calendar, the lunar months kept their place in the seasons by the insertion of an extra
month every two or three years. The Islamic calendar abolished this practice ...

Actually the Koran uses the language of pre-Islamic Arabia - otherwise the Koran would not be understandable for the people.
The Islamic calender seems to be a product of people who lived after the departure of the prophet Mohammed.

Does -shahr- mean a whole month?

The Koran seems to indicate otherwise.

Verse 2189 indicates that there is no koranic support for the point of view that the abstention should last 29/30 or 10 days, because of the absence of mentioning the period of abstinence explicitly in this verse.
This verse mentions the hilal-indicator as relevant for the communal event of the -hajj- and not for the communal event of the abstention during the -shahr ramadan-.
Verse 2203 gives the only koranic exact example of the Arabic word -ma'doodat- mentioned in verse 2184 regarding the number of days of abstention, and refers to the number three as the prescribed duration of being present at the -hajj- which lasts ten days in total.
In verses 280 and 324 the word -ma'doodat- refers to the few days that the fire will touch a group of people according to their assumption.
In verse 1220 the word -ma'doodat- refers to a few -dirhams-.
So the Koran indicates that the word -ma'doodat- is rather a very small number - not 29 or 30.
Verse 2184 tells the believers when they witness or see the -shahr ramadan- that they should fast it - one can witness or see the full moon and fast it - the full moon lasts about three days.
If here a total lunar-cycle was meant - then it would be rather impossible to witness or see the whole month and go back into time to fast the whole month.
One can only acknowlegde the start of a month - seeing the -hilal-.
But verse 2189 clearly rules out that the period of fasting -shahr ramadan- has anything to do with the -hilal-.
The -hilal- was relevant for the -hajj-, not for the other communal koranic event - the communal fasting.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mmkhan

Salaam brother,

The Koran seems to indicate otherwise.

Verse 2189 indicates that there is no koranic support for the point of view that the abstention should last 29/30 or 10 days, because of the absence of mentioning the period of abstinence explicitly in this verse.
This verse mentions the hilal-indicator as relevant for the communal event of the -hajj- and not for the communal event of the abstention during the -shahr ramadan-.
Verse 2203 gives the only koranic exact example of the Arabic word -ma'doodat- mentioned in verse 2184 regarding the number of days of abstention, and refers to the number three as the prescribed duration of being present at the -hajj- which lasts ten days in total.
In verses 280 and 324 the word -ma'doodat- refers to the few days that the fire will touch a group of people according to their assumption.
In verse 1220 the word -ma'doodat- refers to a few -dirhams-.
So the Koran indicates that the word -ma'doodat- is rather a very small number - not 29 or 30.
Verse 2184 tells the believers when they witness or see the -shahr ramadan- that they should fast it - one can witness or see the full moon and fast it - the full moon lasts about three days.
If here a total lunar-cycle was meant - then it would be rather impossible to witness or see the whole month and go back into time to fast the whole month.
One can only acknowlegde the start of a month - seeing the -hilal-.
But verse 2189 clearly rules out that the period of fasting -shahr ramadan- has anything to do with the -hilal-.
The -hilal- was relevant for the -hajj-, not for the other communal koranic event - the communal fasting.

I got similar understand as yours about Ramadhan and its period of fasting, but not sure about the word "Shahr". I still have to study it in detail. Can you put some light on your understanding the meaning meaning of word "Shahr".

Thanks in advance.

May Allah increase us all in true knowledge and guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

truthseeker171

I got similar understand as yours about Ramadhan and its period of fasting, but not sure about the word "Shahr". I still have to study it in detail. Can you put some light on your understanding the meaning meaning of word "Shahr".

Alaikoom as-salaam brother

Lanes Lexicon gives several meanings

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent,
the moon when conspicuous and near to being full.

So the standard work of classical Arabic does not give a solution - only possibilities.

That is why it seems to be the best to focus on the word -ma'doodat-, the number of days of the communal abstention, in verse 2184.
In this way the Koran may guide us to the koranic meaning of the word -shahr- in verse 2184, the full moon that lasts three days.
Regarding the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- in verses 2203, 280, 324 and 1220 - three or a few.
Also verse 2189 is compelling in ruling out the relevance of the -hilal- as indicator for the period of abstention.
So the lunar-cycle starting with the -hilal- has no relevance to -shahr ramadan-.

When the word -shahr- is used in the plural form, then the days that are between the full moons are also belonging to the indicated period.
For instance verse 2234 - the waiting period and 95 - the restricted full moons.
The period lasts from the first day of the first full moon until the last day of the last full moon.
In verse 2194 -shahr haram- is mentioned in singular form - since it relates to one of the four restricted moons (verse 936), here the -shahr- is mentioned as exemplary as one of the four restricted full moons, which indicate a longer period.

So it seems to depend on the context what the meaning of the word -shahr- is.
The -shahr ramadan- seems to be only the period of the full -scorching moon- itself - since the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- as given in the Koran - 3 (days) or a few.
And because of following when witnessed or seen, the -shahr ramadan- itself has to be fasted, not a day more, not a day less - verse 2185.

Salaam,
Truthseeker.

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

When the word -shahr- is used in the plural form, then the days that are between the full moons are also belonging to the indicated period.
For instance verse 2234 - the waiting period and 95 - the restricted full moons.
The period lasts from the first day of the first full moon until the last day of the last full moon.
In verse 2194 -shahr haram- is mentioned in singular form - since it relates to one of the four restricted moons (verse 936), here the -shahr- is mentioned as exemplary as one of the four restricted full moons, which indicate a longer period.

So it seems to depend on the context what the meaning of the word -shahr- is.
The -shahr ramadan- seems to be only the period of the full -scorching moon- itself - since the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- as given in the Koran - 3 (days) or a few.
And because of following when witnessed or seen, the -shahr ramadan- itself has to be fasted, not a day more, not a day less - verse 2185.

Peace -- to be consistent, exactly how many days total?

492/584 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (&#1616 consecutively

2226 For those who swear from their women waiting/tarabbusu four ashhurin (&#1613
2234 should wait for themselves four ashhurin (&#1613 and ten (i.e. fourteen)
92 so move about in the land four ashhurin (&#1613
654 so their waiting period three ashhurin (&#1613