Joining the US Army/AirForce

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and peace, all group

My comments in red

Here is my two cents

If you kill a human being (take a life) be sure that it is justified because if not on the day of judgment his blood will be on your hands
(i.e. If you murdered an innocent person you will be guilty of murder)

Of course! All the more reason to be careful. I do distinguish between accident and deliberate--unless you would call the victim of a car crash murdered. There are inherent risks in the military, but there is also a wider opportunity to do good works.

In the Western Military There Is no Questions and Answers. There are Orders and Commands.
If you are Ordered to take out an "enemy" force, and you feel that the force many not really be an enemy...and perhaps may be an innocent person,
There is no arguing back to the authorities. Its plain and simple Follow your Orders and Commands.

It is true that the military operates with the use of orders and commands. I must point out that military personnel are only obligated to follow lawful commands. It is an unlawful command to "engage" a "target" without positive ID. There is actually an obligation for military personnel to actively disobey unlawful orders. Further, muslims in the military can be in a good position to give orders/commands themselves and even positively influence others.

You've singled out western military; how do you think non-western militaries operate? Here's how many non-western militaries operate always with orders and commands, often with brutality, and seldom with the care of the United States military.

In Islam you do not kill someone is accused of being a criminal. There are Fair Trials and Rules of Engagement/treatment.
In Western War there is no Trial, Hearing, or questioning, again there is simply Following Orders.

Do you believe that United States armed forces shoot accused criminals? This isn't true. In Iraq and Afghanistan, trials are held only by the government--the supposedly "islamic" government. The "following orders" defense didn't work at the Nuremberg Trials, and it isn't valid today either. I suppose that in non-Western War, things are all cute and cuddly? Amirite? You'd be surprised to learn just how well trained United States servicemembers are regarding ROF (rules of force) and ROE (rules of engagement) and how very detailed these instructions are. This is quite unlike suicide bombers, who I would call an enemy to all that is good in the world--regardless of their misplaced intentions.

If you are content with Following Orders and Commands and unconditionally-submitting to Human Authority, and are content with having innocent blood on your hands on the day of judgment...then by all means do what you feel is right.

If you have any form of government where you live, you have submitted to human authority. Like it or not, you too follow orders and commands of an earthly nature. There is a huge difference between a professional servicemember and a murderer. The "unconditionally" in your statement is hyperbole. peace I unconditionally submit to Allah alone.

In my humble opinion, You should not kill or risk killing innocent people so Walmart, McDonnalds, and other corporations can have more global dominance.
oh and by the way.... I am sure it sucks fighting in a war against "Enemies" who have been sold weapons by the same manufacture that provided you with weapons. nope

Don't like capitalism much? ignore LOL. Enjoy whatever form of government you enjoy best; I sincerely wish you peace and prosperity. You won't have enjoy either for long without the capability of self defense; in the modern world, this means that your country will require a military. Corporations benefit from war, but I'm not so sure that they perpetuate war. Look, I'm not saying that I unconditionally agree with United States foreign policy. Many (if not most) servicemembers feel the same way. War/conflict sucks regardless of the circumstances or weapons involved. Your troll-fu is weak.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Emil

Rather, the question for Muslims in the US should be a) can I emigrate to a land where I will not be participating in wrongdoings, b) can I remain where I am and "minimize" my contribution to the government and war machine, c) can I remain and contribute to the government an its war machine, because I have a bigger influence/ability in spreading the message of monotheism and God alone if I stay rather than leave.

I'll take option C, please. Change must come within the ranks. You must have power to change, you must earn their respect before they will listen to you. If one stands idly by the side with a grumpy look nobody will take you seriously. If you are, in the eyes of the blind, trying to sabotage by minimizing your contribution, then you will invite them to dislike you. And then they will certainly not listen to you.

In the Western Military There Is no Questions and Answers. There are Orders and Commands.
If you are Ordered to take out an "enemy" force, and you feel that the force many not really be an enemy...and perhaps may be an innocent person,
There is no arguing back to the authorities. Its plain and simple Follow your Orders and Commands.

Dear RA786

Please be a bit more specific when you write "Western Military". You are generalizing/you have no idea what you are talking about.

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and peace, all group

My comments in red

You do not need to lie to yourself. You will be fighting for war profiteers, for the Military Industrial Complex, for big corporations, such as oil and construction. Fighting for your country is not destroying little poor countries with no significant threats to your country!

War profiteers attach to any conflict, but are not the root cause. Did these "poor little countries" do anything that might have prompted their invasion/occupation? The United States could relatively easily utterly destroy any "little poor country" but does not do so. The United States helped Japan and Germany rebuild after WWII, and is attempting to help Iraq and Afghanistan even now. Is it in the national interest of the United States to pour blood and treasure into these countries? hmm

Afghanistan might not be a significant threat to the United States, but they sure as hell harbored folks that attacked us. No free pass for the actions of the former Taliban government of Afghanistan because it is a small poor country that despised us. In my opinion, United States involvement in Afghanistan is 100% justified--but might not be smart. Iraq was an aggressive country that refused to play by international rules. I freely admit that (in my opinion) military operations in Iraq are not as justifiable as Afghanistan. Iraq balanced Iran, and that balance no longer exists.

You will be used and then most likely be discarded with severe emotional problems and perhaps physical handicappes. See how many homeless veterans out there? Be all you can be, but never not join the killing machine of the empire.

All combat veterans, whether they admit it or not, have some form of PTSD--usually mild and temporary. It is an occupational hazard! However, support for servicemembers and their families has vastly improved since the Vietnam war. Not every thing that is worthwhile is easy or risk free. yes

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and peace, all group

My comments in red.

Even if you are a good person and do your job well, you are still participating in and actively supporting an organization which kills, maims and oppresses the innocent on a daily basis. Even if you personally don't shoot at others, you are helping others do the actual shooting, no matter what your job within the armed forces happens to be. By making yourself subject to the chain of command you are shirking your moral responsibility for your actions. If the president tells his generals who tell their colonels who tell their captains who tell you to go kill somebody, will you do it? What if you participated in killing a believer? Do you think God will forgive you your trespasses on judgement day because you were only following orders handed down by people who outranked you?

I take full responsibility for all of my actions. I would never use "following orders" as an excuse. On the other hand, I don't obey unlawful orders.

I'm not being "butthurt" here, but if you don't see the disconnect between serving God and willfully serving in the U.S. military I don't know what to tell you. Jingoism aside, what are your arguments for actually making the world a better place by your choice of employer? Any good the U.S. military has ever done must be viewed in relation to the bad things it as done.

For me, there is no disconnect. A good action is a good action. I am not the Judge of whatever bad has been done in the past. How would you suggest improving things? Criticize them and do nothing? Ignore that problems exist in the first place? Positive change has to start somewhere. Is good ever futile, in your opinion?

I'm not a pacifist. I recognize there are situations where righteous people are allowed and have a duty to defend themselves violently against unjust attackers. Being a volontary stooge for empire has nothing to do with such a struggle, but rather leads to the kind of oppression that might necessitate it. You are on the wrong side of history, brother. Your side has all the money to buy all those cool toys, but it's still a force used for oppression, and you are supporting it. No matter what training, money and benefits they give you for your participation it seems like a devil's bargain to me.

If you believe (as I do) that the September 11 attacks were carried out by OBL, then military operations in Afghanistan can hardly be viewed as oppression. I'd say, more like self defense. Attacking Iraq is less justifiable, but can be justified (poorly). I won't feel bad when the United States leaves either country, except perhaps for the exploited populaces of those countries. To me, the systems vying for control of those countries (among many others) are far more oppressive than the presence of the United States. I don't make national policy. Perhaps the problem is not that muslims are in the United States armed services, but rather there aren't MORE muslims serving. As a thought experiment, how different do you think the United States military would be if it was all muslim? Food for thought, isn't it? sun

Peace peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and peace, all group

That being said, I agree with Magnus on a theological level. If you willingly participate in the oppression of another person for the wrong reasons you are going against the law of Allah.

True that. I agree with both of you in this matter--how could I not? It is all the more reason for me to take care in my actions. The greater the power, the greater the responsibility (and the heavier the burden of consequences for misuse).

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Magnus

I take full responsibility for all of my actions. I would never use "following orders" as an excuse. On the other hand, I don't obey unlawful orders.

I think you may be incorrect here. I would argue that any order to go to Afghanistan or Iraq is unlawful, or any order that enables others to go there, for example.

For me, there is no disconnect. A good action is a good action. I am not the Judge of whatever bad has been done in the past. How would you suggest improving things? Criticize them and do nothing? Ignore that problems exist in the first place? Positive change has to start somewhere. Is good ever futile, in your opinion?

If i were in your situation I would consider publicly protesting the war(s), disobeying all orders relating to them in any way, and stand up for truth and justice even if that leads to a court martial or (gasp!) a dishonorable discharge. Their definition of "honor" is perverse, and you should tell them so. First you gotta realize this though, and I don't think you do.

If you believe (as I do) that the September 11 attacks were carried out by OBL, then military operations in Afghanistan can hardly be viewed as oppression. I'd say, more like self defense. Attacking Iraq is less justifiable, but can be justified (poorly). I won't feel bad when the United States leaves either country, except perhaps for the exploited populaces of those countries. To me, the systems vying for control of those countries (among many others) are far more oppressive than the presence of the United States. I don't make national policy. Perhaps the problem is not that muslims are in the United States armed services, but rather there aren't MORE muslims serving. As a thought experiment, how different do you think the United States military would be if it was all muslim? Food for thought, isn't it?

Wow. Ok. Let's begin with 9/11. I think OBL planned it, yes. I think it was a crime, and I think it should be dealt with as a crime. The thing is, the country of Afghanistan did not attack the U.S, and the invasion of that country has failed to capture OBL. So what you have is a pile of human bodies, and no justice for the crime that was 9/11. The horrible thing that you need to reflect over is that the pile of bodies your colleagues and the taliban have collectively been stacking up is much, much bigger than the pile of bodies made on 9/11. The taliban are killing combatants occupying their homeland, and they are killing civilians to keep them from collaborating with the occupiers. The U.S. military (you and your colleagues) are killing everything their bullets and bombs happen to hit, and more often than not it's someone other than a combatant. How many dead Afghanis does it take to make up for 3,000 dead american civilians? Does it matter if they're women and children? Does it matter that OBL as well as the majority of the 9/11 highjackers were Saudi nationals?

The war in Afghanistan isn't a "good war" and it isn't justified. You say that the U.S. is less oppressive than "the systems vying for control of those countries" - I wonder how you come to this conclusion. U.S. forces are killing civilians at an astounding rate with all the terrible tools of war at their disposal save nuclear weapons; what type of oppression could be worse?

War is not some unfortunate fact of life for you, it's a choice. You have chosen to serve in your country's military, and your country has chosen to invade Afghanistan, it wasn't forced to. The purported enemy is no real threat to the U.S. - you don't "fight them over there so you don't have to fight them over here" - it's not like a bunch of dirt-poor pashtun farmers are going to swim across the ocean with their kalashnikovs and RPGs and start killing U.S. civilians. The U.S. on the other hand is sending its soldiers and its war machines halfway across the world to kill and oppress, and despite it's best efforts it isn't even "winning" - the resistance is getting stronger, and I can't see any solution to the conflict other than full-scale genocide of Afghanis or a costly defeat for the U.S. - though much, much more costly for the Afghanis.

Even worse than Afghanistan, the Iraq invasion was an act of naked aggression, and I think it's safe to say it was motivated primarily by the oil resources in the region. What crime could possibly be greater than this crime? Hundreds of thousands of dead, a nation destroyed, and for what? A dozen "enduring bases" on Iraqi soil, a huge fortified embassy complex in Baghdad, and a puppet regime nominally in power, for starters. This is what empire looks like in our time.

RA786

Greetings and peace, all group

My comments in red

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Abdul-hadi,

You can do what you feel is right, If you want to go ahead.

All I can say is that with all the things I have studied (political occultism)... I feel confident within myself that almost every single war that was taken place within this 21st century was a war for Imperialistic gains, and a Massive Satanic Blood Sacrifice on the field for both sides, In fact I dont believe that the majority of wars were even for self-defense.
If you decide to join go ahead do what makes you happy and know others will be VERY pleased with you... for me... I wouldnt go because I wouldnt want to sacrifice my life to Imperialism, Corporatism, Genocide, or a satanic blood ritual.

Peace! ;D

Btw, I know many friends from the Military and just to let you know... The treat you like trash when you join. They yell in your face, call you racial slurs, make fun of your skin color, religion, and origin....and yet Justify it by saying "We were only doing it to teach you discipline".
That doesnt seem like a good method in teaching men discipline. Would a righteous army do that to its soldiers (even in boot camp)? as I said do what makes you happy, just consider the consequences on judgment day, If you feel there are none...then you must have nothing to fear.

Oh, and perhaps while your there...maybe you can request to be deployed to Allied Israel to help Israels IDF solders.

Emil

Btw, I know many friends from the Military and just to let you know... The treat you like trash when you join. They yell in your face, call you racial slurs, make fun of your skin color, religion, and origin....and yet Justify it by saying "We were only doing it to teach you discipline".
That doesnt seem like a good method in teaching men discipline. Would a righteous army do that to its soldiers (even in boot camp)? as I said do what makes you happy, just consider the consequences on judgment day, If you feel there are none...then you must have nothing to fear.

Brother

Abdul Hadi is already a soldier, it was commando x who was thinking about becoming one.

The reason for the very uncivilized way of screaming in bootcamp has a reason. It teaches the young man or woman that the individual is not important but the group. It also teaches the individual to believe in themself. What your military friends forget to tell you is that for every bad word, there is a word of praise as well. They also forgot to tell you that punishment and encouragement are collective in the military. If one honky is called honky, then all honkies are called honky. If an individual has done a good effort, the group is praised.

I was a dumb little kid with absolutely no self-esteem when I joined the military. I hated authority and nothing made me more happy than to beat the crap out of someone. In other words, I was pretty messed up. The military taught me to believe in myself (by screaming at me). It taught me that my real physical and emotional boundaries are much further beyond what my mind had set as the limit. It also taught me that oppression is the worst sin of mankind. I have nothing to say but thank you to the military for saving me from becoming a nobody. So please do not mix up the way of the soldier and war. If you have studied politics you should understand that in a democracy the soldier doesnt start the war but the politician. The soldier is doing the dirty work of your leader, but he is blamed and called a babykiller and whatnot. Like I said before, it only becomes dangerous when the politician is smart enough to make the soldier forget what is right and wrong. That is why I claim that right now, it is more than ever important for muslims to join the US military so we can make sure that the US is not waging war on the muslim. The utopia would be of course if all pacifists in the world would become soldiers, then we would truly have armed forces that only defended.

Magnus

Peace Emil.

soldiers actually kill babies. It's terrible but it's true, and saying it isn't necessarily slander. The fact that it's a nobody holding the weapon that kills and not the powerful politicians doesn't free the soldier from his moral obligations as a human being.
I too have spent time in uniform. I was young, dumb and impressed by the tools of war. I learned some useful skills and benefited from the experience in many ways, but that doesn't make any of it right.

Prince

That is why I claim that right now, it is more than ever important for muslims to join the US military so we can make sure that the US is not waging war on the muslim.

How about if NO ONE joined the army and those that are fighting this oppressive war go back home and not fight for the top elites imperialistic agenda of total world domination/slavery. You can't have a war if no one wants to fight peace

"BOMBING FOR PEACE IS LIKE F**KING FOR VIRGINITY"

Emil

How about if NO ONE joined the army and those that are fighting this oppressive war go back home and not fight for the top elites imperialistic agenda of total world domination/slavery. You can't have a war if no one wants to fight peace

"BOMBING FOR PEACE IS LIKE F**KING FOR VIRGINITY"

I agree, in Utopia everything is pink and flowers everywhere. In mine all pacifists who refuse to shoot a gun will be forced to join the military, that way we are assured no bullets will fly.

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and peace, all group

My comments are in red.

I think you may be incorrect here. I would argue that any order to go to Afghanistan or Iraq is unlawful, or any order that enables others to go there, for example.

That is certainly a lawful order. An example of an unlawful order would be to shoot an unarmed person. o

If i were in your situation I would consider publicly protesting the war(s), disobeying all orders relating to them in any way, and stand up for truth and justice even if that leads to a court martial or (gasp!) a dishonorable discharge. Their definition of "honor" is perverse, and you should tell them so. First you gotta realize this though, and I don't think you do.

One, disobeying ~all~ orders including lawful ones would be a violation of my oath, taken freely before Allah. Two, disobeying lawful orders is unreasonable. Three, advocating the disobeying of lawful orders is subversion. Why don't you "martyr" yourself by turning yourself in for SAEDA (Sabotage And Espionage Directed against the Army) if you feel so justified in your beliefs? If your beliefs are justifed, turning yourself in would surely be an honorable action. Put your money where your mouth is--more matter less art. Its easy to sacrifice others for your beliefs, isn't it? laugh

Wow. Ok. Let's begin with 9/11. I think OBL planned it, yes. I think it was a crime, and I think it should be dealt with as a crime. The thing is, the country of Afghanistan did not attack the U.S, and the invasion of that country has failed to capture OBL. So what you have is a pile of human bodies, and no justice for the crime that was 9/11. The horrible thing that you need to reflect over is that the pile of bodies your colleagues and the taliban have collectively been stacking up is much, much bigger than the pile of bodies made on 9/11. The taliban are killing combatants occupying their homeland, and they are killing civilians to keep them from collaborating with the occupiers. The U.S. military (you and your colleagues) are killing everything their bullets and bombs happen to hit, and more often than not it's someone other than a combatant. How many dead Afghanis does it take to make up for 3,000 dead american civilians? Does it matter if they're women and children? Does it matter that OBL as well as the majority of the 9/11 highjackers were Saudi nationals?

Afghanistan did not attack the United States. Instead, the government of Afghanistan (Taliban) harbored the attackers. It is like a murderer kicking in your door, shooting and killing your family--and then taking refuge with a neighbor. > The neigbor should not offer safety for a murderer. Since the neighbor did, they have the consequences of their action. The nationality of the murderer(s) is not an issue in this case.

The war in Afghanistan isn't a "good war" and it isn't justified. You say that the U.S. is less oppressive than "the systems vying for control of those countries" - I wonder how you come to this conclusion. U.S. forces are killing civilians at an astounding rate with all the terrible tools of war at their disposal save nuclear weapons; what type of oppression could be worse?

No war is good, but war is sometimes necessary. yuck For the reasons stated above, I believe the war in Afghanistan is justified. The system of government under the Taliban was one of tyranny, compulsion, and backwardness. I'd rather fight and if necessary die free than live under any such system. To do battle requires at least two opposing sides. If the horrors of war/conflict are so great, why join battle? It isn't to topple the yoke of "oppression" but rather to attach it that most "forces" fight United States forces--that and foreign governments fighting proxy wars. An oppressive system is worse than combat. You know, there are some 30,000,000 people living in Afghanistan. If only 1% of the population actively opposed the allied countries currently in Afghanistan, the allied armies couldn't stay--300,000 folks with a home-field advantage would clobber any unwelcome presence. This hasn't happened, and I'll tell you why. Few Afghans want a return to a bad system. More Afghans welcome the temporary presence of foreigners than the return of oppressive government.

War is not some unfortunate fact of life for you, it's a choice. You have chosen to serve in your country's military, and your country has chosen to invade Afghanistan, it wasn't forced to. The purported enemy is no real threat to the U.S. - you don't "fight them over there so you don't have to fight them over here" - it's not like a bunch of dirt-poor pashtun farmers are going to swim across the ocean with their kalashnikovs and RPGs and start killing U.S. civilians. The U.S. on the other hand is sending its soldiers and its war machines halfway across the world to kill and oppress, and despite it's best efforts it isn't even "winning" - the resistance is getting stronger, and I can't see any solution to the conflict other than full-scale genocide of Afghanis or a costly defeat for the U.S. - though much, much more costly for the Afghanis.

War is unfortunate in that it saps resources that could be better used, that it takes me away from my family, and that it puts me in uncomfortable situations where life and death are at stake. The Pashtuns are more likely to attack Pakistan for the land stolen from them. If Pakistan and India ever come to serious blows, this will likely happen. I agree that people have a right to dislike or even hate my country. To take dislike and hatred to the level of action will have "consequences and repercussions." If other countries attack or aid and abet those who attack, then what do you expect will happen? Afghanistan and Afghans are better off with the Taliban gone. I wish Afghans the absolute best, and hope that they implement a better system. The United States has no desire to stay in/permanently occupy any country other than our own.

Even worse than Afghanistan, the Iraq invasion was an act of naked aggression, and I think it's safe to say it was motivated primarily by the oil resources in the region. What crime could possibly be greater than this crime? Hundreds of thousands of dead, a nation destroyed, and for what? A dozen "enduring bases" on Iraqi soil, a huge fortified embassy complex in Baghdad, and a puppet regime nominally in power, for starters. This is what empire looks like in our time.

Saddam Hussein's system of government was even more brutal than the Taliban, just more modern. > Iraq was hardly a peaceful country, having invaded its neighbor Iran in 1980 and fighting until 1988, and later invading Kuwait in 1990. Iraq also commited acts of war against Israel by firing missiles at it, even though Israel had not materially acted against Iraq. That government did use chemical weapons against Iran, and against its own people. With its violent history and its refusal to follow international mandate, Iraq was invaded. I don't glorify slaughter, and I don't love death--and yet what the government of Iraq would have done to others (and had attempted to do to others) was done to it instead. I have yet to see a single drop of oil from Iraq--in fact, military operations require a lot of fuel to be shipped to Iraq, at great cost. The embassy was turned over to the Iraqi goverment in early 2009. Don't let that stand in the way of your argument, though! Aggressive action is the only thing that works against an aggressive country (Iraq). I don't agree with military involvement in Iraq, and (had I been in charge) would never have invaded. What's done is done, and the only thing to do is to make the best of it. I don't know Iraqis as well as I know Afghans, but I also wish them peace and prosperity.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

RA786

@Emil,

Do you believe the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was justifiable and Legal? How about the Vietnam war?
Do you agree with the use of Torture, Humiliation, Depleted Uranium, and Chemical Weapons?
Do you agree with Overthrowing government (sometimes democratic nations) to install Dictators?

I think everyone needs to study the Military Industrial Complex, Psywar, NewWorldOrder, and many other things as to make reality more clear.
Once you realize how the world works...You then realize War is just a fabricated ritual that is 100% unnecessary.

The world is a controlled and well planned stage. You may see One side as Enemy (BLACK) and the Other Side Allied (White)....
But in reality they are both funded and controlled by the same Grey Group. Therefore it doesnt matter... The winner will always be Grey.
Both Black and White Die....but Grey lives with out harm.

In other words...dont be Black, White, or Grey.

Abdul-Hadi

Greetings and peace, all group

My comments (as usual) in red.

@Emil,

Do you believe the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was justifiable and Legal? How about the Vietnam war?
Yes and yes, although more legal than justifiable. Yes also to the Vietnam war. With the exception of Afghanistan, I don't think that any of the conflicts had to happen. Maybe even Afghanistan wouldn't have had to happen if the United States didn't get on the bad side of OBL. But that's hindsight. Vetnam is a little before my time; I'm not sure about the relevance. My opinions don't exactly affect the reality of any of these wars.
Do you agree with the use of Torture, Humiliation, Depleted Uranium, and Chemical Weapons?
I don't agree with them. I do acknowledge their uses...as do ALL governments (albeit very quietly). Every single government on earth would stoop to murder under certain circumstances. The use of these "technologies" listed above are neither limited to any one nation nor to any particular worldview. Torture is very old indeed. Nuclear weapons aren't exactly moral either--and neither are they going away anytime soon (unless replaced with even more destructive weapons). The United States no longer uses DU weaponry--nor chemical weapons--nor landmines--nor a host of other items. Our adversaries not only often deliberately target civilians, but also indiscriminantly kill civilians with IEDs, suicide bombers, landmines, and anything else that they can beg,
borrow, steal or otherwise attain. Can you justify that? I'm taking a stab in the dark here, but I'm guessing that you'd rather blame the presence of the United States overseas for the use of suicide bombs than the people actually using them.

Do you agree with Overthrowing government (sometimes democratic nations) to install Dictators?
Depending upon the circumstances yes or no. I can't give a blanket answer for that one. I have little love for any dictator, but I believe that people should (in peacetime) be able to live in a government of their choosing--even if it isn't one that I would choose for myself. If war requires a regime change, so be it. It is foolish to leave the head on a venomous snake--not very pragmatic at all. If you were in a position where an enemy needed to be defeated, would you leave the leadership intact?

I think everyone needs to study the Military Industrial Complex, Psywar, NewWorldOrder, and many other things as to make reality more clear.
Once you realize how the world works...You then realize War is just a fabricated ritual that is 100% unnecessary.

So, you think you have a lock on how the world works. <smirk> There's nothing getting past you, is there? <sarcasm>
A Military Industrial Complex does exist, and like any other business it exists to make money. Not very sinister when understood. Do you mean psychological war? If so, do you believe that it is better to use words and ideas or explosives and other physical weapons? Talk talk is better than war war, in my opinion. NewWorldOrder is (in my opinion) paranoid nonsense. I don't buy into buzzwords or conspiracy theories. Lemme guess...it's the JOOOOOOZ. Or is it the alien greys? yeah

The world is a controlled and well planned stage. You may see One side as Enemy (BLACK) and the Other Side Allied (White)....
But in reality they are both funded and controlled by the same Grey Group. Therefore it doesnt matter... The winner will always be Grey.
Both Black and White Die....but Grey lives with out harm.

In other words...dont be Black, White, or Grey.

I see...be invisible. Nothing in this world is worth taking a stand for, amirite? The same "grey group" funds and controls the United States military and the so-called insurgency? Give me a break! A large percentage of the world's wealth is concentrated in the hands of a few thousand people, but this hardly indicates a conspiracy. Ever hear that a house divided against itself cannot stand? I find your assertion of a "grey group" laughable and reject it in full. If the world was peaceful, we wouldn't need war. And if my aunt had balls, then she'd be my uncle. laugh

Why don't you tell me what you think would happen if the United States was unopposed in Afghanistan or Iraq? Not that it would ever happen. What do you think the ideal outcome for these countries is anyway...Sharia law?

I'm not mad at 'ya. We can agree to disagree; you are hardly obligated to join the United States military. I just don't find anything wrong with the military so long as my actions are appropriate. There is no work that is without dignity. I am responsible for my actions alone.

peace

~Abdul-Hadi

Abdul-Hadi

-[

Oops, beg pardon;

In reference to above post I can see that the questions were intended for other than me. My bad.

~Abdul-Hadi

Emil

@Emil,

Do you believe the war in Iraq and Afghanistan was justifiable and Legal? How about the Vietnam war?
Do you agree with the use of Torture, Humiliation, Depleted Uranium, and Chemical Weapons?
Do you agree with Overthrowing government (sometimes democratic nations) to install Dictators?

No, no war is ever justified in the name of political, economical or religious reason.
No, I don't even believe in the use of bow and arrow.
No, I don't even believe in overthrowing dictators with the use of force. Change is better to come from within.

Please do not get me wrong brother. I am not defending war, I am defending the soldier. You only see the result when things go wrong. When I was a young soldier my country sent soldiers to Yugoslavia to defend the innocent victims. The scenes we witnessed I could not even try to describe. How do you think it felt like to find muslim women and children nailed to walls in a crucifix fashion? We found a lot of dead soldiers buried with only the head sticking up. Their heads had been used as target practice....
The people who did all these horrible things were young men, proud of their nation, who had been duped into thinking their race was divine and all others were animals. Is it their fault for being misled??
I know from experience that religion is the absolutely easiest argument to use in order to get people to kill. That is why I say again, muslims are needed in western militaries to stop "war on terrorism" turning into war on Islam, then we are all screwed.....

So whenever you are protesting against war, don't direct your anger to the soldier. Direct it towards the persons who make the decision to abuse the soldier's code of honour.

Prince

muslims are needed in western militaries to stop "war on terrorism" turning into war on Islam, then we are all screwed.....

So whenever you are protesting against war, don't direct your anger to the soldier. Direct it towards the persons who make the decision to abuse the soldier's code of honour.

The thing is that there is no war on terror - its a phantom enemy created to pursue further agenda of world domination/slavery. No buzz words or conspiracy theories do the research your self Abdul Hadi and you shall see....reading through zionist controlled news and watching zionist controlled tv news channel like fox, cnn etc will only give you bullsh*t news to make the victims look like enemies.

Religion is used to recruit soldiers but the anger should be directed at all who take part in a war INCLUDING the soldiers. Soldiers are trained to not question but fight and choosing to fight only means you've switched your God given mind of questioning and allowing yourself to be a slave to the puppet masters who are controlling you to fight their oppressive wars.

Anyone who thinks Vietnam war, 9-11, 7/7 is justified or believes in the 'official' story of how it happened are greatly misguided and need to look at all the facts and theories to see which story is more plausible/reasonable.

PEACE

Emil

The thing is that there is no war on terror - its a phantom enemy created to pursue further agenda of world domination/slavery. No buzz words or conspiracy theories do the research your self Abdul Hadi and you shall see....reading through zionist controlled news and watching zionist controlled tv news channel like fox, cnn etc will only give you bullsh*t news to make the victims look like enemies.

Religion is used to recruit soldiers but the anger should be directed at all who take part in a war INCLUDING the soldiers. Soldiers are trained to not question but fight and choosing to fight only means you've switched your God given mind of questioning and allowing yourself to be a slave to the puppet masters who are controlling you to fight their oppressive wars.

Anyone who thinks Vietnam war, 9-11, 7/7 is justified or believes in the 'official' story of how it happened are greatly misguided and need to look at all the facts and theories to see which story is more plausible/reasonable.

PEACE

Is there anyone that understands a fraction of what I am trying to say? Prince, you are diving right into the dark abyss of politics again. I am not talking about what this and that is really about and what reasons were given for war or whatever. The war on terrorism could have been called whatever, war on Santa, war on men that wear skirts, I don't care anything about the reasons, OK?

I am merely pointing out the fact that there is a very powerful nation with a lot of guns that has proclaimed a war with an excuse which can very very VERY much be linked to Islam. Which way do you think is the better approach for trying to avoid that the link becomes fact. To stand on the barricades and shout you are all assholes and we hate you OR join them, earn their trust, and then SHOW them that Islam is not the one to fight against?

And yet again I hear that soldiers are trained to not question but fight. Who is it Prince, you or Abdul Hadi who has been watching too much TV? There are countless of soldiers in the world that would DIE to keep you safe. Yet again I am not talking about the reasons to wage war, I am talking about the code of honour of a soldier. Just because the minority (although very influencial) of leaders choose to manipulate and mis-use this code doesnt mean you are allowed to judge the soldier. If you insist on not differentiating between a politician and soldier, then I need to send some to infiltrate you, join you, earn your trust, and then SHOW you what a soldier's life is all about.

If you are adressing Adbul, please don't insert a quote from me first.

harris

The war on terrorism could have been called whatever, war on Santa, war on men that wear skirts, I don't care anything about the reasons, OK?

lol... tats funny.

Salaam Emil, I read from your posts tat ur an ex-soldier. Hats off to all u warriors out there tat have had the courage to endure the toughest of human challenges. Not every average joe can be a real soldier who serves selflessly for others. I understand your point that being a soldier has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with dirty politicians.

In few cases where the former is used for the evil schemes of the latter, lies mankind's greatest failure. I would say in such cases,the soldier must ask himself if he is indeed doing right by blindly following orders from the top. Though a true soldier would never go against the code and fight the system he upholds with honor, atleast he'd know wen its time to call it quits.

http//www.dazzlejunction.com/graphics/military/soldiers-respect.gif

Peace.

Magnus

Salaam.

Emil I've been trying to grasp what you mean with what you refer to as the code of honor among soldiers, and why it is so important to you.
I think there's something positive there, but like everything else in this life, I think God tells us that for the rejectors, all good deeds are like ashes in the wind. If we are to take the U.S. military as an example, all service members (correct me if i'm wrong here) swear an oath to "uphold and defend the constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic". The way I see it, as long as any other law than God's law form the foundation of the code of honor, the hole code becomes unhinged, unbalanced and fundamentally untrue. A fighting force of righteous believers who strive with their lives to uphold the Quran (the best constitution, given to us by God) would be an entirely different matter, though the "code" would be much the same as what you describe? Just where my mind went regarding this issue is all...
hmm