Establish the salat general Vs the regular/timed salat specific - an answer?
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Peace Wakas
I have come to similar understanding recently. However, my current understanding puts the difference in general and timed salat down to different evolutionary stages of community and individual development. Also, I don't think that it is quite as clear cut as these two categories, but rather that the salat grows as the community or individual evolves.
I have been wanting to post my salat findings, but I want to ensure there are no inconsistencies in these findings and it is taking some time running the findings through a final test of consistency. Posting portions at a time for comment may be an option.
Imraan
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Peace Wakas
I disagree with you, salat isn't exclusive to mu2mineen or rather "the regular/timed/daily bond is only prescribed upon the mumineen".
The prescription is upon those who believe. is there any identity given on the "timed" prayers? maybe i missed it?
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo istaAAeenoo bialssabri waalssalati inna Allaha maAAa alssabireena
2153 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Seek aid in steadfast patience and prayer for, behold, God is with those who are patient in adversity.
I dont see ya ayyuha mumineen.
Yes I agree there are "forms" of salat the birds, mushrikeen etc but that don't mean regular timed salat is exclusively for mumineen. also if you take that approach one can question indefinitely what is the differences? what do each involve etc.
if you want to talk identities muttaqeen establish salat 3031, 2177
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peace all,
AQ = al quran
salat = bondTo understand the following you may need to read this brief article http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm
Students of AQ have noted that it mentions to uphold/establish the salat in seemingly general terms, salat of things such as birds , salat of the mushrikeen , salat between people etc but it also clearly mentions a finite salat that is time-bound , and significant discussion has involved investigating and trying to reconcile these two distinct but related concepts. But is there a simple explanation?
Well, my recent studies are suggesting to me that AQ is all about bringing people together under the umbrella of truth/justice/brotherhood/righteousness, with indifference towards specific practice or what a group calls itself, but rather, an emphasis on togetherness through a pure belief in oneness/monotheism.
So, let's assume the above is true, well that would clearly suggest AQ is addressing and trying to uplift at least two sets of people
- calling all of mankind to its message and to live by its guidance, and if one attains belief/faith with that, then excellent, but if not that is ok. And this can include people of previous revelations, to remain true to their original teachings. There are numerous examples in AQ of a mix of people living together.
- those who come to believe in AQ and wish to uplift themselves in every way, including spiritually, by studying and implementing fully what AQ says, not just the basics of the way of life it prescribes. In other words, these people are the believers/mumineen.
Thus, as we can clearly see, to say "establish/uphold the bond" for each group is different. The bond of a believer is different to the bond of a citizen living under the deen. The general population would not need to regularly read/study/orate AQ, under such a system only the mumineen would need to do this, as they are the ones wishing to uphold/establish AQ in the full sense, hence understanding it is key, thus the regular/timed/daily bond is only prescribed upon the mumineen.
In such a society there would be relative unity/peace, a somewhat uniform common law, with various beliefs/practices amongst groups. Similar to many countries today.
The above understanding also explains various other aspects of AQ and traditional history which I dont have time to go into right now, but thought I'd put this out there for others to reflect upon. It's interesting considering I thought trying to reconcile AQ with traditional history would be impossible, but it seems this might not be the case, and the answer was laying within AQ itself.
If it wasnt for the sake of me thinking (according to your understanding) mumineen=priest or rabbi, then I would agree with you. Please prove me wrong.
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Salaam SarahY,
Peace Wakas
I disagree with you, salat isn't exclusive to mu2mineen or rather "the regular/timed/daily bond is only prescribed upon the mumineen".
The prescription is upon those who believe. is there any identity given on the "timed" prayers? maybe i missed it?
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo istaAAeenoo bialssabri waalssalati inna Allaha maAAa alssabireena
2153 (Asad) O YOU who have attained to faith! Seek aid in steadfast patience and prayer for, behold, God is with those who are patient in adversity.
I dont see ya ayyuha mumineen.
Yes I agree there are "forms" of salat the birds, mushrikeen etc but that don't mean regular timed salat is exclusively for mumineen. also if you take that approach one can question indefinitely what is the differences? what do each involve etc.
'Ya ayyuhal lazeena aamanu' = Oh you who believe
'Al-momineen' = The believers
I don't see any difference.
if you want to talk identities muttaqeen establish salat 3031, 2177
2177 clarifies that whoever is a Muttaqi is also a believer.
2177
2177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who believes in Allah and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Book, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who upholds the contact prayer, and who contributes towards purification; and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of hardship and adversity and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous.
Hope you understand what I am saying.
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
peace all,
Sarah,
See mmkhan's post above, also 10103. The issue of muslim/mumin and salat etc has been discussed in several threads before, e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12990.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13499.0Emil,
I have no idea where you got that from. -
Emil,
I have no idea where you got that from.Neither do I, that was my initial feel, not thought.
I guess I saw it as when dividing man into your two categories it will create one small (mumineen) and one large (everybody else) group. The large group will naturally not have as much religious knowledge as the small since the small will naturally study religion more than the large. The large will then (out of complacancy or respect or whatever reason) go to the small for guidance.
Small group=priests Large group=everbody else
Like I said, I like what you wrote. Please help me in my only doubt & -
peace Emil,
The "large group" (as you put it) are not banned from reading/studying AQ, they can do so if they wish, in fact they can do it even more than a person who is mumin. It is up to them.
What I'm saying is, the mumineen are the ones upholding AQ, and I would assume trying to follow/implement it, hence when it says do X, they do X. I dont see how that turns them into priests or religious clerics, or how this would monopolise knowledge.
You may wish to read the article I referenced in the original post.
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peace Emil,
The "large group" (as you put it) are not banned from reading/studying AQ, they can do so if they wish, in fact they can do it even more than a person who is mumin. It is up to them.
What I'm saying is, the mumineen are the ones upholding AQ, and I would assume trying to follow/implement it, hence when it says do X, they do X. I dont see how that turns them into priests or religious clerics, or how this would monopolise knowledge.
You may wish to read the article I referenced in the original post.
Hello Wakas
I am sorry I totally missed the link, now I read it, thank you.
It makes sense what you say, eventhough I have not searched into the subject myself. The buddhist (Thai version) seem to have a good balance between category 1 and 2. Monks, their version of mumineen, truly indulge themselves into finding the path to Nirvana. When you ask them for advice they will not give you answers, but merely guide you until you find the answer yourself.
My doubt doesn't lie in the mumin but in the non-mumin. I met traditionals that would even take a scholar's passing of wind as divine.....You understand what I mean? There are a lot of people out there who believe in God but has never opened the torah/bible/Quran because they never needed to. They have been told by other more knowledgable people what the books say. I am not saying the more knowledgable have led them astray or misinterpreted, I am just saying that man's natural complacancy must be considered when categorizing him. I am also pointing out that eventhough it is not mentioned (as far as I know) in the Quran, the mumin will have to take an enourmos responsibility for teaching the system of Islam in the right way, because teach he must, that cannot be avoided, whether he wants to or not.
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Peace all, Wakas,
1- My point of view to answer your claim
985
And they have been commanded no more than this to serve Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being True (in faith); to establish regular Prayer; and to practise regular Charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.
I do not think only the "elite" should "bond" /timed salat because of this verse. Anyone who received the Book, should make the effort.
2- A thought
4103
When ye pass (congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah's praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up regular prayers for such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times.
Comment What about "salat" being for all who received the Book but prescribed at specific time only for the muminin, e.g. if you are lasy you are not yet "real" mumin, but if you make effort, you are one!
see 3215-16
Yusuf AliOnly those believe in Our Ay?t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), who, when they are reminded of them fall down prostrate, and glorify the Praises of their Lord, and they are not proud.
Their limbs do forsake their beds of sleep, the while they call on their Lord, in Fear and Hope and they spend (in charity) out of the sustenance which We have bestowed on them.
Peace
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peace herbman,
I'm not sure where you got "elite" from.
"salat" is also for any recipients of revelation, see 1959 where "they lost/neglected the salat/bond and followed desires".
Also disregarding the covenant of the scripture and conveying misinformation about God contrasted to holding tight to the book and upholding the salat
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Salaam herbman,
4103
When ye pass (congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah's praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up regular prayers for such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times.
Comment What about "salat" being for all who received the Book but prescribed at specific time only for the muminin,
Correct!
2458
2458 O you who believe, let those who are maintained by your oaths, and those who have not yet attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before the dawn contact prayer, and when you put off your attire from the noon time, and after the evening contact prayer. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. Allah thus clarifies the revelations for you. And Allah is Knowledgeable, Wise.
This is also about the Salaat timing and aayat addressed to Mumineen.
629
629 O you who believe, if the contact prayer is called to at the gathering day, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of Allah, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if only you knew.
This also address to Mumineen.
e.g. if you are lasy you are not yet "real" mumin, but if you make effort, you are one!
hmm
-X
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
peace all,
AQ = al quran
salat = bondsalam wakas,
interesting find, but since 2004 until now i have not been able to find a definite term for 'salat' (which for you is 'bond', even though personally i am definitely sure that 'salat' is not a 'ritual prayer' or 'duAAa' or 'blessing'. by this i do not mean that 'ritual prayer' or 'duAAa' or 'blessing' is a wrong understnding of 'salat'. no. to each his own.
in general terms i understand 'salat' to mean 'relationship', but for specifics i take it to mean 'connection', 'bond', and even 'communion', depending on usage. for the plural i use 'cordial relationships', since this is what we are commanded to uphold, whether it is with people or with God.
for example, my personal understanding (i am by no means asking anyone to follow this understanding) of the first few sentences of 'albaqarah' may read like this
• It is a gut feeling.
• That message is indubitable, there is guidance in it for the mindful.
• They are people who believe secretly and correct the relationship, and out of what We gave them, they share.
• And they are people who believe in what was revealed to you (s) and also what was revealed before you, and in the end they are convinced.
• These people are on guidance from their Lord, and these people are the successful ones.
in 002045, it reads "And seek recourse patiently and in relationship/connection, but it is certainly burdensome, except for people who are humble."
(the command is "to be always in connection with God" when we are facing challenges, or difficulties, or even in making an effort to turn over a new leaf after we have sinned or strayed from the godly path, so that God will guide us out/through.)
in 002157, it reads "These people enjoy cordial relationships from their Lord as a blessing, and these people are the correctly guided."
and so on.
among our biggest problems is i think, in establishing the correct relationship with God. this forms the basis, i think, of our conduct in the life of this world, as i suppose a correct relationship with God will surely entail a correct way of life; correct in our thoughts and deeds, thus leading into being correct as true servants of God. it may be simply about the essential issue of 'khuluq'.
as always this is merely my personal comprehension. i might be wrong, yet maybe worth a ponder.
may God guide us correctly, insha-Allah.
mohammed noh
