bring a sura like it? a deeper meaning?

Idris

peace apple,

Greetings All,

Let's take a detailed look at all of the infamous Koranic ?challenges??

Let?s dig right in?

(5233-34)

Let?s look at these verses in context

5223 They give each other in it a cup/wine, (there is) no nonsense/senseless talk in it, and nor sinning/committing crimes.

5224 And servants/boys for them, circle/walk around on them, as if they are protected/covered pearls.

5225 And some of them approached/came on (to) some (each other), they ask/question each other.

5226 They said "We were before in our people/family afraid/compassionate.?

5227 "So Allah blessed on us and He protected/preserved us (from) the severe hot's/burning wind's torture."

5228 "We were from before, we call Him, that He truly is, He is the righteous/charitable, the merciful/most merciful."

5229 So remind, so you are not with your Lord's blessing with a fortune teller/highly ranked priest or rabbi ,and nor mad/insane.

5230 Or they say "A poet, we wait/remain with him the death's doubt/suspicion".

5231 Say "Wait/remain (watch) so that I am with you from the waiting/ remaining (watching)."

5232 Or their minds/dreams order/command them with that, or they are a tyrannizing/arrogant nation?

5233 Or they say "He made it up." But/rather, they do not believe.

5234 So they come with an information/speech equal/alike to it, if they were truthful.

Summary of 5233-34 in context

They give each other in it a cup/wine, (there is) no nonsense/senseless talk in it, and nor sinning/committing crimes.
AND, servants/boys for them, circle/walk around on them, as if they are protected/covered pearls.
AND, some of them approached/came on (to) some (each other), they ask/question each other.
They said "We were before in our people/family afraid/compassionate.?
SO, Allah blessed on us and He protected/preserved us (from) the severe hot's/burning wind's torture."
"We were from before, we call Him, that He truly is, He is the righteous/charitable, the merciful/most merciful."
SO, remind
8 ) SO, you are not with your Lord's blessing with a fortune teller/highly ranked priest or rabbi
AND, nor mad/insane.
OR, they say "A poet, we wait/remain with him the death's doubt/suspicion".
Say "Wait/remain (watch)
SO, that I am with you from the waiting/ remaining (watching)."
OR, their minds/dreams order/command them with that,
OR, they are a tyrannizing/arrogant nation?
OR, they say "He made it up." But/rather, they do not believe.
SO, they come with an information/speech equal/alike to it, if they were truthful.

The vantage point of this discussion is from the Koranic Paradise. The Koranic paradise that has is roots in the Biblical Heaven as described within the pages of the Book of Revelation.

The Koran, in typical fashion, is simply regurgitating Biblical material. The phrase ?they come with an information/speech equal/alike to it? is the quintessential element that embodies the entire Koran.

It is heart and soul of what the Koran attempts to do. The Koran attempts to mimic the Holy Bible. It attempts to be the ?equivalent? of the Holy Bible. It attempts to be like the Holy Bible.

Fact is, the Koran fails in its attempt to copy the Holy Bible, as detailed in the examples below.

(1785-88 )

1785 And they ask/question you about the Soul/Spirit, say "The Soul/Spirit (is) from my Lord's matter/affair, and you were not given from the knowledge except little.?

1786 And if We willed wanted We will take away/eliminate with what We inspired/transmitted to you, then you do not find for you with it on (against) Us a guardian/protector.

1787 Except mercy from your Lord, that His grace/favor/blessing was great on you.

1788 Say "If the human/mankind and the Jinns gathered/unified on that they come with similar/equal/alike (to) this the Koran, they do not come with similar/equal/alike to it, and even if some of them were to some, (were to each other) supporting/helping."

1789 And We had laid out/detailed linguistically to the people in this the Koran from every example/proverb, so most of the people refused/hated except (insisting) disbelief.

1790 And they said "We will never/not believe to you until you cause a water spring/well to flow/burst from the land.?

1791 "Or a treed garden of palm trees and grapes/fruits of the vine be for you, so you cause the rivers/waterways to flow/burst in between and round it flowing/bursting."

1792 "Or you drop the sky pieces on us as you claimed/alleged, or you come with Allah and the angels facing/from front."

1793 "Or (a) house/home from ornament/gold be for you, or you ascend/climb in the sky, and We will never/not believe to your ascent/climb until you descend on us a book we read it." Say "My Lord's praise/glory, have I been except a human, a messenger?"

1794 And what prevented/forbid the people that they believe when the guidance came to them, except that they said "Did Allah send a human, messenger?"

1795 Say "If there were in the earth/Planet Ea rth angels walking assured/secured, We would have descended on them from the sky/space an angel (as) a messenger."

1796 Say "Enough/sufficient with Allah, (as) a witness/testifier between me and between you, that He truly was/is with His worshippers/slaves expert/experienced, seeing/knowing."

1797 And whom Allah guides so he is the guided, and whom He misguides, so you will never/not find for them guardians/protectors from other than Him, and We gather them (on) the Resurrection Day on their faces/fronts, blind, and mute, and deaf, their shelter/refuge (is) Hell, whenever (it) became humble/tranquil (subsided), We increased them blazing/inflaming.

1798 That (is) their reward because they disbelieved with Our verses/evidences and they said "Is (it that) if we were bones and debris/fragments, are we being resurrected/revived (as a) new creation?"

Summary of 1785-88 in context

AND, they ask/question you about the Soul/Spirit, say "The Soul/Spirit (is) from my Lord's matter/affair,
AND, you were not given from the knowledge except little.?
AND, if We willed wanted We will take away/eliminate with what We inspired/transmitted to you,
THEN, you do not find for you with it on (against) Us a guardian/protector.
Except mercy from your Lord, that His grace/favor/blessing was great on you.
Say "If the human/mankind
AND, the Jinns gathered/unified on that they come with similar/equal/alike (to) this the Koran, they do not come with similar/equal/alike to it,
8 ) AND, even if some of them were to some, (were to each other) supporting/helping."
AND, We had laid out/detailed linguistically to the people in this the Koran from every example/proverb,
SO, most of the people refused/hated except (insisting) disbelief.
AND, they said "We will never/not believe to you until you cause a water spring/well to flow/burst from the land.?
OR, a treed garden of palm trees and grapes/fruits of the vine be for you,
SO, you cause the rivers/waterways to flow/burst in between and round it flowing/bursting."
OR, you drop the sky pieces on us as you claimed/alleged,
OR, you come with Allah and the angels facing/from front."
OR, (a) house/home from ornament/gold be for you,
OR, you ascend/climb in the sky,
18 ) AND, We will never/not believe to your ascent/climb until you descend on us a book we read it." Say "My Lord's praise/glory, have I been except a human, a messenger?"
Say "Enough/sufficient with Allah, (as) a witness/testifier between me
AND, between you, that He truly was/is with His worshippers/slaves expert/experienced, seeing/knowing."
AND, whom Allah guides so he is the guided,
AND, whom He misguides,
SO, you will never/not find for them guardians/protectors from other than Him,
AND, We gather them (on) the Resurrection Day on their faces/fronts, blind,
AND, mute,
AND, deaf, their shelter/refuge (is) Hell, whenever (it) became humble/tranquil (subsided), We increased them blazing/inflaming.
That (is) their reward because they disbelieved with Our verses/evidences and they said "Is (it that) if we were bones and debris/fragments, are we being resurrected/revived (as a) new creation?"

See the pattern beginning?

It is abundantly clear that these passages are integrated into Biblical Eschatological scripture.

a) Fire
b) Pieces of the sky falling
c) Allah & his angels coming
d) The city of Gold (the New Jerusalem)
e) The Resurrection

This is so classic

"If the human/mankind and the Jinns gathered/unified on that they come with similar/equal/alike (to) this the Koran, they do not come with similar/equal/alike to it, and even if some of them were to some, (were to each other) supporting/helping."

Mankind producing something equivalent to the Holy Bible?

Well, the authors of the Koran attempted to do just that. They attempted to mimic the Holy Bible ? and failed.

The Koran, rather than clarifying or correcting, just simply regurgitates Bible basics without any regard whatsoever for the details.

The Holy Bible is required to correct & clarify the Koran in ALL instances.

(1113)

1111 Except those who were patient, and made/did the correct/righteous deeds, those for them (is) a forgiveness and (a) big/great wage/reward.

1112 So maybe/perhaps you are leaving some/part (of) what is inspired/transmitted to you, and narrowing/tightening with it your chest (innermost), that they say "If only a treasure was descended on him, or (an) angel came with him." But you are (a) warner/giver of notice, and Allah (is) on every thing (a) guardian/protector.

1113 Or they say "He fabricated/cut and split it." Say "So come or bring with ten chapters of the Koran similar/equal/alike to it fabricated, and call whom you were able from other than Allah if you were truthful."

1114 So if they do not answer/reply to you, so know that was/is descended with Allah's knowledge, that (there is) no Allah except Him, so are you submitters/surrenderers/Moslems?"

1115 Who was/is wanting the life the present/worldly life and its decoration/beauty/ornament, We fulfill/complete to them their deeds in it, and they in it are not being reduced/cheated/caused injustice to.

1116 Those are those not (nothing is) for them in the end (other life) except the fire, and what they made/did (was) wasted/invalidated in it, and is being wasted/annulled/canceled what they were making/doing.

Summary of 1113 in context

Except those who were patient,
AND, made/did the correct/righteous deeds, those for them (is) a forgiveness
AND, (a) big/great wage/reward.
SO, maybe/perhaps you are leaving some/part (of) what is inspired/transmitted to you,
AND, narrowing/tightening with it your chest (innermost), that they say "If only a treasure was descended on him
OR, (an) angel came with him." But you are (a) warner/giver of notice,
AND, Allah (is) on every thing (a) guardian/protector.
8 ) OR, they say "He fabricated/cut and split it." Say "So come or bring with ten chapters of the Koran similar/equal/alike to it fabricated,
AND, call whom you were able from other than Allah if you were truthful."
SO, if they do not answer/reply to you,
SO, know that was/is descended with Allah's knowledge, that (there is) no Allah except Him,
SO, are you submitters/surrenderers/Moslems?"
Who was/is wanting the life the present/worldly life
AND, its decoration/beauty/ornament, We fulfill/complete to them their deeds in it,
AND, they in it are not being reduced/cheated/caused injustice to.
Those are those not (nothing is) for them in the end (other life) except the fire,
AND, what they made/did (was) wasted/invalidated in it,
18 ) AND, is being wasted/annulled/canceled what they were making/doing.

It is clear for all to see that this verse is completely 100% embedded within Biblical Eschatological content.

The Koran is simply regurgitating its source material ? the Holy Bible.

A Sura like it? 10 Suras like it? How about 22 like it ? all from one book of the Holy Bible ? the Book of Revelation.

(223)

Let?s look at this ayah in context

223 And if you were in doubt/suspicion from what We descended on Our worshipper/slave, so come/bring with a chapter from its similar/equal/alike to it, and call your witnesses/testifiers from other than Allah, if you were truthful.

224 So if you do not make/do and you will never make/do, so fear the fire, that/which its fuel (is) the people and the stones, (it) was/is prepared to the disbelievers.

225 And announce good news (to) those who believe and did/made the correct/righteous deeds, that to them (are) treed gardens the rivers flow from beneath it. Whenever they (were) provided for from it from a fruit a provision, they said "This (is) what we were provided for from before." And they were given with it similar, and for them in it (are) purified spouses and they are in it immortally/eternally.

Summary of 223 in context

AND, if you were in doubt/suspicion from what We descended on Our worshipper/slave
SO, come/bring with a chapter from its similar/equal/alike to it
AND, call your witnesses/testifiers from other than Allah, if you were truthful
SO, if you do not make/do
AND, you will never make/do
SO, fear the fire, that/which its fuel (is) the people
AND, the stones, (it) was/is prepared to the disbelievers
8 ) AND, announce good news (to) those who believe
AND, did/made the correct/righteous deeds, that to them (are) treed gardens the rivers flow from beneath it. Whenever they (were) provided for from it from a fruit a provision, they said "This (is) what we were provided for from before."
AND, they were given with it similar
AND, for them in it (are) purified spouses
AND, they are in it immortally/eternally.

Again, it is clear for all to see that this verse is completely 100% embedded within Biblical Eschatological content.

This is evident from the Koranic concept of ?Hell? as defined in the Book of Revelation. The Koran mentions all the ingredients

a) Fire
b) People
c) Stones (brimstone)
d) Unbelievers

Then, in typical Koranic fashion, the Biblical ?Hell? concept is immediately contrasted with the Koranic sensual ?Paradise? ? which is a twist on the Biblical concept of Heaven, as described within the pages of the Book of Revelation.

The Koran mentions the following ingredients

a) deeds
b) treed gardens
c) water
d) fruit

So?.bringing forth a Sura like it would be to bring forth the Entire Book of Revelation.

Pure and simple.

(1038 )

Summary of 1038 in context

1034 Say "Are there from your partners (with Allah) who starts/initiates the creation then he repeats it?" Say "Allah starts/initiates the creation, then He repeats it. So how/where (do) you lie/turn away?"

1035 Say "Are there from your partners (with Allah) who guides to the truth?" Say "Allah guides to the truth .Is who guides to the truth more worthy/deserving that He be followed or who does not guide except that he be guided, so what (is it) for you how you judge/rule?"

1036 And most of them do not follow except assumption/supposition, that the assumption/supposition does not suffice (replace) from the truth a thing, that Allah (is) knowledgeable with what they make/do.

1037 And this the Koran was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than Allah, and but confirmation (of) what (is) between his hands, and detailing/explaining The Book, no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) from the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.

1038 Or they say "He fabricated it." Say "So come/bring with a chapter of the Koran similar/equal to it and call whom you were able from other than Allah, if you were truthful."

Summary of 1038 in context

Say "Are there from your partners (with Allah) who starts/initiates the creation
THEN, he repeats it?"
Say "Allah starts/initiates the creation,
THEN, He repeats it.
SO, how/where (do) you lie/turn away?"
Say "Are there from your partners (with Allah) who guides to the truth?" Say "Allah guides to the truth .Is who guides to the truth more worthy/deserving that He be followed
OR, who does not guide except that he be guided,
8 ) SO, what (is it) for you how you judge/rule?"
AND, most of them do not follow except assumption/supposition, that the assumption/supposition does not suffice (replace) from the truth a thing, that Allah (is) knowledgeable with what they make/do.
AND, this the Koran was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than Allah,
AND, but confirmation (of) what (is) between his hands,
AND, detailing/explaining The Book, no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) from the creations all together's/(universes') Lord.
OR, they say "He fabricated it." Say "So come/bring with a chapter of the Koran similar/equal to it
AND, call whom you were able from other than Allah, if you were truthful."

Again, smack-dab in the middle of Biblical Eschatological content ? starting with the mentioning of the New Creation as stated in the Book of Revelation Hundreds of years BEFORE the Koran.

It is most interesting that the Koran is said to ?CONFIRM? that which is between his hands. It states that it ?details/explains? The Book (the Holy Bible), and that there is ?no doubt/suspicion in it?, and that it is from the Lord. Finally, it makes the assertion that if ?He fabricated it?, and then bring forth a Sura like it.

Now, this is most interesting. The Koran is attempting to compare itself to the Holy Bible. The Koran specifically states that it ?details/explains? the Holy Bible.

This brings up the logical question of the so-called ?challenge? to produce another like it. If the Koran is meant as a ?confirmer? of the Holy Bible, then this means that the Koran is simply going to regurgitate, time and again, what is mentioned within the pages of the Holy Bible.

This is indeed what the Koran attempts to do, as demonstrated by the THOUSANDS of parallel scriptures that can be found between the Holy Bible & the Koran.

In fact, one need not go any father than the last book of the Holy Bible ? the Book of Revelation. Here the Koran ?confirms? the entire Book of Revelation. Lock, stock & Barrel, up to and including the deity of Jesus Christ!

Without a doubt, this ?challenge? from the Koran has to be hands-down, the worst possible thing that the naive Muslim can possibly put forth as ?support? for the Koran.

Ironically, it is hands-down the BEST possible thing that the na?ve Muslim can do to confirm the authenticity of the Holy Bible!

Muslims who feel that it is their ?obligation? to expound upon an assertion such as this, will quickly find that the assertion is putting forth Biblical material as the ROOTS of the Koran ? in particular, scripture from the Book of Revelation!

You would do well to study the origin of your beloved Koran.

As in virtually ALL portions of the Koran, the ?Sura like it? is the Biblical material from which the Koran borrowed itself from.

Have a great day?

did you even bother reading the post and its replies or do you just like inserting you crappy translations and biased views into every post you come into, the challenge is to bring a structure like it, with two possible meanings, one being the literary, scientific, philosophical, spiritual, logical, mathematical, prophetic, rhythmic etc. structure of the book itself or another being to bring a government like it or a constitution establishing a better government

Is The Bible Inimitable?

Anyone who has read the history of the Bible as a text as well as the constantly changing canon at the whims of the leaders of the Church and some 300,000+ variant readings in the New Testament itself would suggest that no book in history enjoyed such as reputation. The process of serious editing through which the Christian Bible went through is unparalleled in its almost 2000 year history. This would itself make the Bible an inimitable book.

As far as the language of the Bible and its stylistic perfection is concerned, the Bible does not make any such claim. Therefore, it not does challenge the mankind of produce a few verses or a chapter like it. Further, it is a Christian claim that the Bible contains scribal and linguistic errors. The language in which the Greek New Testament was written is demotic Greek which itself has little or no regard for grammatical rules of classical Greek. Comparing the stylistic perfection of the Qur'?n versus stylistic imperfection of the Bible, von Grunebaum states

In contrast to the stylistic perfection of the Kur'an with the stylistic imperfections of the older Scriptures the Muslim theologian found himself unknowingly and on purely postulative grounds in agreement with long line of Christian thinkers whose outlook on the Biblical text is best summed up in Nietzsche's brash dictum that the Holy Ghost wrote bad Greek.-B Lewis, V L Menage, Ch. Pellat & J Schacht (Editors), Encyclopedia Of Islam (New Edition), 1971, Volume III, E J Brill (Leiden) & Luzac & Co. (London), p. 1020 (Under I'djaz).

Futher, he elaborates the position of Western theologians on the canonization process and composition of the Bible

The knowledge of the Western theologian that the Biblical books were redacted by different writers and that they were, in many cases, accessible to him only in (inspired) translation facilitated admission of formal imperfections in Scripture and there with lessened the compulsive insistence on its stylistic authority. Christian teaching, leaving the inspired writer, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, free in matters of style, has provided no motivation to seek an exact correlation between the revealed text on the one hand and grammar and rhetoric on the other. It thereby relieved the theologian and the critic from searching for a harmony between two stylistic worlds, which at best would yield an ahistoric concept of literary perfection and at worst would prevent anything resembling textual and substantive criticism of Revelation....

In Christianity, besides, the apology for the "low" style of the Bible is merely a part of educational problem - what to do with secular erudition within Christianity; whereas in Islam, the central position of the Kur'an, as the focal point and justification of grammatical and literary studies, was theoretically at least, never contested within the believing community.-Ibid

That pretty much sums up the Bible, its stylistic perfection (or the lack of it!) and the position of Western theologians.

And Allah knows best!

unknownuser

Salaams all,idris,apple,

Sorry to say i will have to partially agree with apple the quranic translations do mimic the bible in a certain way ,essentially the arabs or the translators have translated the quran from biblical point of view.

There is no snake in the quran it appears in the translation,
They even managed to translate the quran - resurecting jesus when there is none in the said quran(the arabic text)jesus actually died -the quran says not me.

And so much more of crisianity believes ,mind you they have been input and are only in the translations.We must get the true translation of the quran,but people such as layth who where inspired at one time aren't -i think in this catagory now.I wonder if some of us could organise something.Thanks.

?

Salaams.

unknownuser

Greetings Idris,

Thanks for sharing your comments?

did you even bother reading the post and its replies or do you just like inserting you crappy translations and biased views into every post you come into, the challenge is to bring a structure like it, with two possible meanings, one being the literary, scientific, philosophical, spiritual, logical, mathematical, prophetic, rhythmic etc. structure of the book itself or another being to bring a government like it or a constitution establishing a better government

You sound stressed?

Indeed, I did read this thread before posting?

The ?structure? possibility is indeed intriguing?.and, beyond any reasonable doubt, I have shown where the Koranic ?structure? originated?

Is The Bible Inimitable?

Anyone who has read the history of the Bible as a text as well as the constantly changing canon at the whims of the leaders of the Church and some 300,000+ variant readings in the New Testament itself would suggest that no book in history enjoyed such as reputation. The process of serious editing through which the Christian Bible went through is unparalleled in its almost 2000 year history. This would itself make the Bible an inimitable book.

As far as the language of the Bible and its stylistic perfection is concerned, the Bible does not make any such claim. Therefore, it not does challenge the mankind of produce a few verses or a chapter like it. Further, it is a Christian claim that the Bible contains scribal and linguistic errors. The language in which the Greek New Testament was written is demotic Greek which itself has little or no regard for grammatical rules of classical Greek. Comparing the stylistic perfection of the Qur'?n versus stylistic imperfection of the Bible, von Grunebaum states

Hmmm?soap box time?.

Why would the Original have to make such a claim in order to prove itself in the first place??

In contrast to the stylistic perfection of the Kur'an with the stylistic imperfections of the older Scriptures the Muslim theologian found himself unknowingly and on purely postulative grounds in agreement with long line of Christian thinkers whose outlook on the Biblical text is best summed up in Nietzsche's brash dictum that the Holy Ghost wrote bad Greek.-B Lewis, V L Menage, Ch. Pellat & J Schacht (Editors), Encyclopedia Of Islam (New Edition), 1971, Volume III, E J Brill (Leiden) & Luzac & Co. (London), p. 1020 (Under I'djaz).

So now, the Koran (which is merely an attempt by its authors to translate or ?mistranslate? Biblical Hebrew and Greek, into Arabic), is somehow ?stylistic perfection??

And the model of this perfection is?..?

Futher, he elaborates the position of Western theologians on the canonization process and composition of the Bible

The knowledge of the Western theologian that the Biblical books were redacted by different writers and that they were, in many cases, accessible to him only in (inspired) translation facilitated admission of formal imperfections in Scripture and there with lessened the compulsive insistence on its stylistic authority. Christian teaching, leaving the inspired writer, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, free in matters of style, has provided no motivation to seek an exact correlation between the revealed text on the one hand and grammar and rhetoric on the other. It thereby relieved the theologian and the critic from searching for a harmony between two stylistic worlds, which at best would yield an ahistoric concept of literary perfection and at worst would prevent anything resembling textual and substantive criticism of Revelation....

In Christianity, besides, the apology for the "low" style of the Bible is merely a part of educational problem - what to do with secular erudition within Christianity; whereas in Islam, the central position of the Kur'an, as the focal point and justification of grammatical and literary studies, was theoretically at least, never contested within the believing community.-Ibid

Thankfully, the Koran can come to our rescue?as it confirms the Authority of the Biblical scriptures?

You can clearly see this to be true in the posts that I have already made in this forum?

That pretty much sums up the Bible, its stylistic perfection (or the lack of it!) and the position of Western theologians.

When you get off your soap box, let?s get back to the Koranic ?structure? issue theme contained within this thread?

And Allah knows best!

Which Allah??

Thanks?

unknownuser

Greetings mz357,

Thanks for adding your comments?

Sorry to say i will have to partially agree with apple the quranic translations do mimic the bible in a certain way ,essentially the arabs or the translators have translated the quran from biblical point of view.

I?m glad to hear you say this?!

Since we know that the material contained within the pages of the Koran was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, it is easy to see how some things did not translate ideally into Arabic?

There is no snake in the quran it appears in the translation,
They even managed to translate the quran - resurecting jesus when there is none in the said quran(the arabic text)jesus actually died -the quran says not me.

It is interesting that Jesus? Biblical divinity has also been left intact?

And so much more of crisianity believes ,mind you they have been input and are only in the translations.We must get the true translation of the quran,but people such as layth who where inspired at one time aren't -i think in this catagory now.I wonder if some of us could organise something.Thanks. ?

Interesting?..so, basically you feel that the Koran that we have in possession today, is NOT the ?original??..?

Thanks for your comments?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Apple Pie,

WHat exactly is your position? Are you here to claim that this reading(quran) is copied from the "Bible"? If that is the argument then why do you not go all the way back to the Kemetic(Egyptian) stories, which speak of virgin births and the like?

unknownuser

Greetings idolfree1,

Thanks for sharing your comments?

WHat exactly is your position?

Christian.

Are you here to claim that this reading(quran) is copied from the "Bible"?

Yes?

If that is the argument then why do you not go all the way back to the Kemetic(Egyptian) stories, which speak of virgin births and the like?

Would that benefit your position to do that??

Thanks?

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Apple pie,

Quote
WHat exactly is your position?

Christian.

I wasn't asking for any title, they mean nothing to me. I was asking what are you trying to get accross? I will take from the above "title" that you are of the position that we must accept Jesus, son of Mary, as our "savior" and that he was murdered on a cross to "save" humanity?

Quote
Are you here to claim that this reading(quran) is copied from the "Bible"?

Yes

What if they both were designed to guide mankind from the same knowledge that has ALWAYS been given to man, starting as far back as Kemet (Egypt)? Are you claiming that because similar information continues to be sent to us, we should reject the more recent on the premise of "thievery"? Is that your position?

Quote
If that is the argument then why do you not go all the way back to the Kemetic(Egyptian) stories, which speak of virgin births and the like?

Would that benefit your position to do that?

Any TRUTH benefits my position, but if your dispute is "robbery" , it will certainly not benefit your position. D

Jesus taught Peace, that is what we are here to promote. I hope you havent come to destroy a peaceful environment.

unknownuser

Greetings idolfree1,

Thanks for your reply?

I wasn't asking for any title, they mean nothing to me. I was asking what are you trying to get accross? I will take from the above "title" that you are of the position that we must accept Jesus, son of Mary, as our "savior" and that he was murdered on a cross to "save" humanity?

You can ?take? it however you want to?.

I am just purveying the TRUE Arabic Koranic message that apparently has been lost over the centuries due to Islamic rhetoric, and ignorance?

What if they both were designed to guide mankind from the same knowledge that has ALWAYS been given to man, starting as far back as Kemet (Egypt)? Are you claiming that because similar information continues to be sent to us, we should reject the more recent on the premise of "thievery"? Is that your position?

So now you think that the Koran is a ?thief???

I prefer to regard the Koran as a ?mis-translation? of the Biblical Hebrew and Greek into Arabic?

After all?.if you have missed the Biblical message that Jesus is God Almighty, as contained within your very own Koran, then, the Koran has failed to accurately deliver its source message from the Holy Bible?

Any TRUTH benefits my position, but if your dispute is "robbery" , it will certainly not benefit your position.

If you think that you have truth that benefits your position, then by all means feel completely free to bring it forth?.if it varies too much from the theme of this thread then begin a new one for discussion?thanks?

Jesus taught Peace, that is what we are here to promote. I hope you havent come to destroy a peaceful environment.

Jesus never came to bring peace?.surely you are aware of this?.right??

Thanks?

Zulf

Peace all,

I wonder why human beings have such a strong tendency to divide everything in "us and them". "If I'm right, then you must be wrong". The old famous "home team syndrome"... bias.

According to the quran, we must use our intellect when making choices.. it's the scientific method.

Some people First gather facts and then draw a conclusion.
Other people Start with a conclusion and then try to find facts to support it.

anyhow...

unknownuser

Greetings Zulf,

.. it's the scientific method.

And....where do you think the scientific method originated...?

Hint.....not in the Koran...

Take care...

unknownuser

I prefer to regard the Koran as a ?mis-translation? of the Biblical Hebrew and Greek into Arabic?

Apple Pie,

And what made you come to that conclusion? Would that be by any particular translation or translations? Or do you claim to read the Arabic well enough to make such a profound statement?

Did you miss the point made to you earlier that the Qur'an translations were under the influence by Christian theology? For example, you must think angels having wings and wear white garbs etc...Well do you?

Did you get the point that we don't regard translations as the Qur'an but the Arabic Qur'an itself?

TheNabi

Salaam

if you have missed the Biblical message that Jesus is God Almighty

I would dearly love for you to show me this Biblical message on the thread I created on the Christianity board. I made that just so that I could show you how unbiblical your trinity doctrine is.

Joe

unknownuser

Greetings Ash Shuura,

Thanks for your comments?

Quote
I prefer to regard the Koran as a ?mis-translation? of the Biblical Hebrew and Greek into Arabic?

And what made you come to that conclusion?

Careful study of the original languages?

Would that be by any particular translation or translations?

Are you saying that there is more than one ?original? Koran out there??

Or do you claim to read the Arabic well enough to make such a profound statement?

Do you find my comments profound?.?

Did you miss the point made to you earlier that the Qur'an translations were under the influence by Christian theology?

Then, is the Koran that we have in possession the true Koran?.yes?or?no?.?

For example, you must think angels having wings and wear white garbs etc...Well do you?

The Koran claims that the four seraphim have 3 pairs of wings?.does this count?.?

Did you get the point that we don't regard translations as the Qur'an but the Arabic Qur'an itself?

Hence the need to study the Koran in the Arabic?.that way we can see first-hand where it obtained its source material from?..

Take care?

unknownuser

Greetings Joe,

Thanks for your comments?

Quote
if you have missed the Biblical message that Jesus is God Almighty

I would dearly love for you to show me this Biblical message on the thread I created on the Christianity board. I made that just so that I could show you how unbiblical your trinity doctrine is.

Then?indeed you shall see it?.

Thanks?

TheNabi

Salaam

The Koran claims that the four seraphim have 3 pairs of wings?.does this count?.?

(1) Who are these 4?

(2) Do people have wings too (1724)?

You claim to understand the context of things. How do you explain the context of wings in 351 especially in conjunction with rusul and almalaika throughout alquran?

Joe

TheNabi

Salaam

Then?indeed you shall see it?.

I'll be eagerly awaiting.

Joe

unknownuser

Greetings Joe,

Thanks for your comments?

Apple Pie wrote
The Koran claims that the four seraphim have 3 pairs of wings?.does this count?.?

(1) Who are these 4?

You claim to understand the context of things. How do you explain the context of wings in 351 especially in conjunction with rusul and almalaika throughout alquran?

Let?s look?

Alhamdu lillahi fatiri alssamawati waal-ardi jaAAili almala-ikati rusulan olee ajnihatin mathna wathulatha warubaAAa yazeedu fee alkhalqi ma yashao inna Allaha AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun

The praise/gratitude (is) to Allah creator/originator (of) the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, making/creating/manipulating the angels (as) messengers (owners) of wings/sides two two/twos, and three/threes, and fours, He increases in the creation what He wills/wants, that truly Allah (is) on every thing capable/able. (351)

Let?s review a few Arabic terms?

= ?ajnihatin?

?ajnihatin? definition

Plural noun. Wings; Power; Arm; Hand; Arm-pit; Wing of an army; Side; Assistant; shelter; Protection. It comes from the root ?janaha?, which means to incline, be at hand, bend, lean forward, stoop.

Reference

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 103 - 104

= ?thulatha?

?thulatha? definition

Three by three; In threes; Three pairs; By threes; Three. It comes from the root ?thalatha?, which means to take a third part of a thing.

Reference

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 83

= ?rubaAAa?

?rubaAAa? definition

The forth part; One forth. It comes from the root ?raba?a?, which means to be watered every forth day (a camel), be the forth, make a four-stranded rope, complete the number four.

Reference

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 200

= ?mathna?

?mathna? definition

Twos by twos. By twos; Two; In pairs; Two and two. It comes from the root ?thana?, which means to bend, fold, double, turn one part of a thing upon the other, draw one of its two extremities to the other, join, or adjoin one of the things to the other, turn anyone away or back from his course or from the object of his want, conceal enmity.

Reference

The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an
Abdul Mannan Omar
p. 87 - 88

Let?s review what 351 is telling us?

There are four messenger angels
Each one has 3 pairs of wings
The wings are folded in pairs
The wings are leaning forward

Do you realize who the four living creatures are? They are the Seraphim spoken of in Isaiah, Revelation, as well as in the Koran.

OT?

(Isa 61) In the year that King Uzziah died, then I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up. And His train filled the temple.

(Isa 62) Above it stood the seraphs. Each one had six wings; with two he covered his face; and with two he covered his feet; and with two he flew.

(Isa 63) And one cried to the other and said, Holy, holy, holy is Jehovah of Hosts; all the earth is full of His glory!

NT?

(Rev 46) and a glassy sea before the throne, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne and around the throne were four living creatures, full of eyes before and behind.

(Rev 47) And the first living creature was like a lion; and the second living creature like a calf; and the third living creature having a face like a man; and the fourth living creature like an eagle flying.

(Rev 48 ) And the four living creatures each one had six wings around, and within being full of eyes. And they had no rest day and night, saying, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty," the One who was, and is, and is coming!

Let?s review what the Holy Bible is telling us?

There are four seraphim
Each one has three pairs of wings
The wings are folded in pairs
The wings are leaning forward

See what the Koran has done?..?

That?s correct?yet more Biblical material that the authors of the Koran have translated into the Arabic?

Sura 35 is replete with Book of Revelation material?

Seraphim
New Creation
Paradise
Hell

On and on it goes?.why deny??

In fact, Sura 35 repeatedly gives credit to the Biblical books that make up its content?

What exactly are you in denial of?.?

(2) Do people have wings too (1724)?

Let?s look?

Waikhfid lahuma janaha alththulli mina alrrahmati waqul rabbi irhamhuma kama rabbayanee sagheeran

And be lenient/comforting/lower to them the humility's/humbleness's wing/side from the mercy (be kind), and say "My Lord have mercy upon them as they brought me up young.? (1724)

As you can tell, this ayah has absolutely NOTHING to do with humans having wings?

Acknowledge your Koran?.better yet..acknowledge the source of the koran, the Holy Bible...!

Thanks?

unknownuser

Acknowledge your Koran?.better yet..acknowledge the source of the koran, the Holy Bible...!

Greetings,

Both come from GOD the Qur'an and the Injeel. However, I am doubtful that the Holy Bible= Injeel. Its possibly in existence somewhere well passified via corrupt translations making Jesus a god whilst he was an honourable messenger of GOD.

Titus 1
12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

This for example is either a mistranslation or an addition, wherever it comes from this is not from GOD.

What do you think?

ayman

Alhamdu lillahi fatiri alssamawati waal-ardi jaAAili almala-ikati rusulan olee ajnihatin mathna wathulatha warubaAAa yazeedu fee alkhalqi ma yashao inna Allaha AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun

The praise/gratitude (is) to Allah creator/originator (of) the skies/space and the earth/Planet Earth, making/creating/manipulating the angels (as) messengers (owners) of wings/sides two two/twos, and three/threes, and fours, He increases in the creation what He wills/wants, that truly Allah (is) on every thing capable/able. (351)

As everybody can clearly see, 351 is speaking of creatures with 2, 3, and 4 sides/dimensions. Especially, the number 3 causes a problem for Mr. Pie because wings on all known winged creatures are symmetric (including mythical biblical creatures such as the Seraphim, fire breathing Dragons, and the like).

This is confirmed by 43 where the same expression "mathna, thulath, wa ruba3" occurs. Now let's see how our simple minded Trinitarian who believes in mythical creatures tries to force a link between 351 and his biblical man-made amazing nonsensical stories

= ?mathna?

?mathna? definition

Twos by twos. By twos; Two; In pairs; Two and two. It comes from the root ?thana?, which means to bend, fold, double, turn one part of a thing upon the other, draw one of its two extremities to the other, join, or adjoin one of the things to the other, turn anyone away or back from his course or from the object of his want, conceal enmity.

Here he says that "mathna" means in pair (i.e. 2) and puts it in bold. Notice that unlike what we will see later, he doesn't say that "mathna" means "two pairs" (i.e. 4).

= ?thulatha?
?thulatha? definition

Three by three; In threes; Three pairs; By threes; Three. It comes from the root ?thalatha?, which means to take a third part of a thing.

Here he flip flops and suggests that "thulatha" means "three pairs" (i.e. 2x3 = 6 in all) and puts it in bold. This is inconsistent with how he interpreted "mathna" above as simply 2 and not 2 pairs.

= ?rubaAAa?
?rubaAAa? definition

The forth part; One forth. It comes from the root ?raba?a?, which means to be watered every forth day (a camel), be the forth, make a four-stranded rope, complete the number four.

Here he flip flops again and doesn't say that "ruba3a" means "four pairs" (i.e. 2x4 = 8 in all) as he said about "thulatha" and instead goes back to saying that it means simply "four".

So according to Mr. Pie, first we have 2 wings, then 6 wings (three pairs), and then we go down again to 4 wings. Of course, the verse clearly refers to "increasing in creation", so one would expect the number to increase and not be 2, 6, 4 but 2,3,4.

What is his motivation for this constant flip flopping and acrobatics to force the three pairs (6 wings) on 351?

Let us see below (emphasis mine)

Let?s review what 351 is telling us?

There are four messenger angels
Each one has 3 pairs of wings
The wings are folded in pairs
The wings are leaning forward

Do you realize who the four living creatures are? They are the Seraphim spoken of in Isaiah, Revelation, as well as in the Koran.

So now we know why he had to change the simple "three" to "three pairs". He had to do all this flip flopping because he wants to force 351 to fit his fantastic story. Without his fantastic story, he would have never been able to reach "three pairs" based on the great reading/"quran".

The rest of his post is more of the same. Basically, trying to fit his preconceived biblical fantasies into his interpretation of the great reading. The only advice I have for him is the same advice I have for everybody else Try to read the honorable reading without any preconceived ideas and see where it will lead you.

Peace on who followed the guidance,

Ayman.

unknownuser

Here he flip flops again and doesn't say that "ruba3a" means "four pairs" (i.e. 2x4 = 8 in all) as he said about "thulatha" and instead goes back to saying that it means simply "four".

Peace Ayman,

Good post, but you got one thing wrong. He said 4 messengers which is even more ridiculuous and not 4 wings.

The acrobatics is a lot more extensive than you give credit for...

regards