Could this be the valley of BAKKAH?
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Yet more contradiction in the traditional understandings?
Commentary of 2127
Ibn Kathir "...This Ayah indicates that this was different supplication than the first one that Ibrahim said when he left Hajar and her son Isma`il in Makkah, before the Sacred House was built. This prayer, it appears, was said after the House was built..."
Al-Jalalayn "...dwell in a valley where there is no sown land, namely, Mecca, by Your Sacred House, which had been there since before the Flood..."Commentary of 396
Ibn Kathir "...the Ka`bah that was built by Ibrahim Al-Khalil..."
Al-Jalalayn "...it was built by the angels before the creation of Adam..." -
Peace,
I just wanted to add that I think this conversation is illogical and nonsensical. The Quran is not a dictionary. WD3 also has multiple meanings, one of which is to place. You can use the word even when you place something up high, like on your top shelf. It just means to place or to put. Additionally the FOUNDATIONS of the house were raised. Houses are built from the ground up. Additionally dakhala also means to enter places. The sons of Jacob (God bless him) entered Egypt, a place. And there are plenty of instances in the Quran were dakhala is used to enter a physical place. I too in the place was not comfortable with the idea of one physical house being so central to our religion. But I was wrong and my conclusions about Bakkah and makkah and how they are used in the Quran were wrong as well. Wakas and many here have seen those conclusions which I have now removed from my website. I just have one word of advice. Not everything that is traditional is bad and Abraham (God bless him) is indeed an key player in our beliefs, and hence the house he built there and invited people to make pilgrimage to. This is an Abrahamic ritual that we perform to honor the signifance behind the house Abraham built for the worship of God and what he did for God. It is a ritual that the Quran has sanctioned. There is nothing wrong with that. Think about what it means and to whom it is connected more than the place that it is in or that it is a physical house.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
Re The Quran is not a dictionary
- Of course it isn't, but AFAIK it is one of the earliest sources and extant works in Classical Arabic. It is also the most important work in Classical Arabic prose. This gives it a unique and significantly influential position.
- AQ does not define words as such, but IF 482 is true then it uses them with the utmost precision, coherence and logic, thus any odd/unusual usages deserve close examination, hence discussion and analysis.
- If a word in AQ appears 50 times and it always means X, then when it does not mean X, this deserves closer examination, hence discussion and analysis.
Can you bring a Classical Arabic reference showing WD3 is used for when a man builds a house/building/structure? It would not negate how AQ uses it, but it would be interesting.
Lane explicitly states it is the opposite of RF3 (which is the word Abraham uses when raising the foundations), and its primary meaning is to put down.And there are plenty of instances in the Quran were dakhala is used to enter a physical place.
Yes I know, but you seemingly miss the point. In its other uses, the only non-physical place is deen and the ssilm/peace/self-surrender, thus IF a non-physical interpretation was chosen, this just so coincidentally happens to fit. Whether its a coincidence or not, remains to be seen and can only be determined by discussion and analysis.
and hence the house he built there and invited people to make pilgrimage to. This is an Abrahamic ritual that we perform to honor the signifance behind the house Abraham built for the worship of God and what he did for God. It is a ritual that the Quran has sanctioned. There is nothing wrong with that.
Do you mean one specific house only?
Also, do you have an article where you have translated and explained the key terms and procedure during HJJ?
Thanks.
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Peace,
I understand your points but I think you are skewing your analysis and view of the issue. The Quran can justify known understandings, but it does not define or, better yet, pidgeon hole any meanings. If the Quran uses a word 50 times in one way and then uses it twice in another way that does not put those two uses under suspicion if the meanings can be justified through other examples. So, since you understand that the Quran does not define words, let's clarify that the Quran does not pidgeon-hole meanings or claim exclusive authority on the usage of Arabic words. Yes wada3 in some sense can be the opposite of rafa3 and in some senses not. One meaning of wada3 would seem to be the opposite of rafa3 but wada3 can mean to place, even if placing the building involves building it from the ground up, i.e. raising it. The contradiction you seem to imply is very, very extreme and illogical. It is as if you were taking the sentence 'I know no-one but him' and saying that this is a contradictory sentence because the sayer is saying that he knows no-one and knows someone at the same time. You are seeing the trees but not the forest.
As for dakhala, I used to see that verse as referring to the family of Abraham (God bless him) and in some ways it can still be taken this way. I think it may be a fault of traditional Islam that from what we know no-one goes into the house. However, the phrase 'dakhala 'alaa' means the same as 'ataa ilaa.' And in some cases it is has been shown that these prepositions can be omitted still giving the same meaning.
No I have not written an article about hajj, but I might have to, it seems. I don't know when that will be however, I have been asserting that the umrah which is the ritual performed during hajj to the house in Becca is defined as going around the house and going in between safaa and marwah. I hope to write an article on this. I'll do some digging.
Godbless,
Anwar -
peace,
One meaning of wada3 would seem to be the opposite of rafa3 but wada3 can mean to place, even if placing the building involves building it from the ground up, i.e. raising it.
I am not saying it is impossible, I am saying from the evidence thus far it is improbable. If you come across an example to the contrary I'd be interested to see it.
I think it may be a fault of traditional Islam that from what we know no-one goes into the house.
But even if one went into the house would it actually fulfil what AQ says it will? Would there be clear signs in it, maqam Abraham, makes one secure etc?
Please note, these are not the only problems with this understanding.
I recall reading an article you wrote about HJJ here
http//web.archive.org/web/20050206231622/peopleprogod.org/pilgrimage.html
I assume you have changed your views somewhat. -
WD3 also has multiple meanings, one of which is to place. You can use the word even when you place something up high, like on your top shelf. It just means to place or to put.
Peace Anwar,
This is not the correct perception. Arabic Roots mirror all physical realities regarding the concept/perception infolded therein. will never reflect a thought of distancing away something upwardly. The perception infolded in the Root is to lay down, place a thing at a certain location of reach with the result that it becomes conspicous and evident. And where it is placed conspicuously that location/place becomes , scene, spot, location, position. With this background passive voice is also used in the meanings "to appoint"-see dictionary compiled by Abdul Manan Omar.
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Peace,
Whatever, I told you what the word means. Look it up in lisaanul-Arab if you want to know the real meaning of the word. Abdul-mannaan's dictionary is severely limited. However, Arabic words CAN have multiple meanings and they often do. As someone who knows Arabic very well i can vouch for that. That's all I have to say really. If you want to believe what you want to out of your own ignorance then that is on you.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Whatever, I told you what the word means. Look it up in lisaanul-Arab if you want to know the real meaning of the word. Abdul-mannaan's dictionary is severely limited. However, Arabic words CAN have multiple meanings and they often do. As someone who knows Arabic very well i can vouch for that. That's all I have to say really. If you want to believe what you want to out of your own ignorance then that is on you.
Godbless,
AnwarLisaanul-Arab says
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You can read many sites on the archive.org but not all.
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Peace,
Lisanul-Arabi says more than that. Don't worry give me some time. Hopefully I will post it by tomorrow night insha allah. Don't be so intellectually dishonest, please. Again, I'll post everything there when I get a chance to post it, which should be by tomorrow night, God willing.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Lisanul-Arabi says more than that. Don't worry give me some time. Hopefully I will post it by tomorrow night insha allah. Don't be so intellectually dishonest, please. Again, I'll post everything there when I get a chance to post it, which should be by tomorrow night, God willing.
Godbless,
AnwarPeace,
Pseudo intellectuals keep exposing themselves by their dishonest observations while they perceive it not. Lisaan was referred to by you. Its main and basic observation about the word is that it is contra of elevation. And also check Lane Vol-VIII you will find everywhere that it is contra of elevation. -
Peace,
Mazhar, Psuedo-intellectual? What you have said in your own words is deceptive. You said
Its main and basic observation about the word is
The words 'main and basic observation' is your opinion and interjection. It is ONE definition of the word(not the main and basic observation), and it does not cancel out the other meanings.
Here's some other pertinent quotations from lisanul-'arab that follow your three worder above
"Wada3ahu, yadi3uhu wad3an wa mawdoo3an. Tha'lab recited two verses in which he said The mawdoo3 of your goodness and its marfoo3. He meant by mawdoo3 what he concealed and did not speak of and by marfoo3 what he made evident and spoke of."
You know I was going to translate the whole entry of Lisanul-Arab but that is just too much work. Here's a few entries
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This entry is talking about how wada3 used with a sword mean to cut someone down with it.
. .
This etnry talks about how wada3 with sword can mean to hit someone with sword or to put the sword down from one's hand, but that in this context it meant to hit someone with a sword. It also says that wada3 min al-yad means to throw down to the ground.
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This entry talks about how wada3 al-yad means 'to eat'
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This entry talks about how the Quranic verse that tells older woman that it is okay to relax their dress code uses wada3. And how it is interpreted as 'to take off' items called the milhafah and the ridaa'. So here it means 'to take off.'
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This entry talks about how 'wada3' with debt or some sort of payment and how it can be used to mean 'to forgive the debt' and how it can also mean 'to forgive' a crime.
(* ? ? .) .
This entry talks about it being used as to stop something, as in war.
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Here wada3 means 'to create' or 'to invent' something.
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Wada3 here means to become debased.
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.Here it means 'to lose money.' or 'to be at a loss.'
Here it means 'to race' in particular to race on camelback or horseback.
Here it means to lead to pasture.
Here it means to restrain from violence.
Here it means 'to reach out, to outstretch, to offer.'
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Here it means to give birth.Here it means 'to take off'
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Here, I'm not sure. i'd have to look up tuhr and muqbal and double-check heedah, which I'm sure means menstruation. But this has something to do
with a woman being pregnant and menstruating..
This shows that mawda3 means 'place.' But so does mawqi3 and even masqat. Funny how often the word place has to do with the concept of going down.
Anyways, I really do think that is enough. I really do feel that this is a waste of time. And putting a house down somewhere brings absolutely NO contradictions with actually constructing the house, i.e raising it. Maybe the real issue here (with you guys) is with the word 'house' or 'bait'. I don't know. The word can just mean 'dwelling place' or 'shelter' in addition to 'family.' Do I need to look up and then translate all the important entries for this word as well? I'm sorry to be so snippy about this. But it really ticks me off when people find contradictions where there are none because they don't understand language, English or Arabic. And especially when they start jumping to all sorts of conclusions, NOT knowing the Arabic or knowing very basic Arabic. It's more the arrogant assertions and defense of the positions that are the problem. For those of you that have made a mountain out of this mole hill (and it it's not even a mole hill), take the meaning of 'to invent, to create' and roll with that. As for me. I just wasted a few hours of my life right now, but I hope someone benefited. As for that smart-ass comment about me being a psuedo-intellectual (it's always convenient to insult when you don't want to do the real homework and comb through all of those long entries in lisanul-Arab), who is the real psuedo-intellectual here, who shows only certain meanings, holding back the rest, twisting words and trying to deceptively lean the reader towards his own WRONG ideas?
Am I done now? Can I be done with this? Wakas, I hope and pray that you understand the points I've made. You are smarter than this. Don't get drawn into the sort of baseless intellectual masterbation that goes on here, where people go to all sorts of extremes to try to re-invent Arabic words using the Quran as an excuse, despite logical and sound knowledge. The Quran is a guidance for the knowledgeable not the imaginative!!
Godbless,
Anwar -
peace Anwar,
Yes, I appreciate what your saying, but my approach is clear for all to see http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html
I go where the evidence takes me, no more, no less...... or at least I try to.
As a side note, vast majority of the meanings you listed involved "to put down", and there was not one reference to it being used when building something.
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As a side note, vast majority of the meanings you listed involved "to put down", and there was not one reference to it being used when building something.
Sigh. Think about it man! Whether it is a house or a tent you've got to start it from the ground. one of the meanings was alsaqa ilaa al-ardi. To stick it/connect it to the ground.
Godbless,
Anwar -
The point of discussion was this
You can use the word even when you place something up high, like on your top shelf.--Anwar
This perception was declared incorrect by Mazhar
This is not the correct perception. Arabic Roots mirror all physical realities regarding the concept/perception infolded therein. will never reflect a thought of distancing away something upwardly. The perception infolded in the Root is to lay down, place a thing at a certain location of reach with the result that it becomes conspicous and evident. And where it is placed conspicuously that location/place becomes , scene, spot, location, position. With this background passive voice is also used in the meanings "to appoint"-see dictionary compiled by Abdul Manan Omar.
Anwar referred Lisan.
Mazhar stated
Lisaan was referred to by you. Its main and basic observation about the word is that it is contra of elevation. And also check Lane Vol-VIII you will find everywhere that it is contra of elevation.
Anwar responds
The words 'main and basic observation' is your opinion and interjection. It is ONE definition of the word(not the main and basic observation), and it does not cancel out the other meanings.
Here's some other pertinent quotations from lisanul-'arab that follow your three worder above
He reproduces the page available at http//www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=
And he deleted the Head Entry which shows the basic meanings of the Root.
( ب
.And in all entries, he will not find support for his opinion which was declared incorrect,
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Peace,
Mazhar,
I did not delete the first entry. I cited it from what you said and then added many of the other entries. You may not find some of the meanings in Lane's lexicon but I have not reviewed lane's entry for this. Anyway, like I said you can use wada3 even when you place something up high. If you put something on your head you use the word 'wada3'. When you put a roof on a house you use the word wada3. And you can both raise a roof and put a roof on a house. You don't see the ridiculousness of this concocted contradiction of yours?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Mazhar,
I did not delete the first entry. I cited it from what you said and then added many of the other entries. You may not find some of the meanings in Lane's lexicon but I have not reviewed lane's entry for this. Anyway, like I said you can use wada3 even when you place something up high. If you put something on your head you use the word 'wada3'. When you put a roof on a house you use the word wada3. And you can both raise a roof and put a roof on a house. You don't see the ridiculousness of this concocted contradiction of yours?
Godbless,
AnwarBut from which entry of Lisan, you have put the page, you are assuming the aforesaid perception?
