Same sex relationships/ marriages
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Dear Layth
Nononono, you get me all wrong now. I have never said that I am scared to offend people. I am probably offending you right now, eh? voodoo. I am scared to make people HATE eachother. And please we are not talking about pedophilia, adultery or anything else but homosexuality here. You brought those other subjects into this. All I pointed out was that homos and pedophiles do not fall into the same "category" when one is clearly an act of oppression. Pedophilia is so beyond "fahisha" it calls for a much stricter "punishment". Pedophilia can destroy a child, mentally and physically for the rest of their lives. I am sorry Layth but you have made me cross at you now. How dare you even imply that I would not be strict on pedophiles?
The same goes for adultery. I am sorry to say again. You are with bad retorics making it sound like I would say OK to adultery because I don't want to offend people yeahLet me show how I am thinking. First I go through what a particular subject, in this case homos, are NOT in the Quran.
Homosexuality is not oppression. It is not adultery. It is not prostitution. Therefore, I cannot find any CLEAR violation of Allah's will.
Second, I look at the community and scientific view.
It is not an illness. It is not genetic. It is not the mother of various diseases. It is not the downfall of a community. It does not disrupt the order of the world. This makes me understand that homosexuality cannot be "dangerous" to me or my community.Third, I look if it may be part of a group of activities that is against Allah's will. This is where "fahisha" comes in.
If I understand "fahisha" it is somehow broadly used, interpreted from illegal sexual intercourse to sodomy. As far as I know the only time fahisha is linked to an act is in 3135. It states that adultery is fahisha.
Whenever it can be linked to homosexuality it is addressed to men only. To me, that doesnt make sense because why would women be exempted?
When the punishment was given to Lot's people, his wife was punished as well. So if homosexuality is fahisha, why is Lot's wife punished when she is not homosexual?It just doesnt make sense, it is not clear and it can be twisted and turned to suit the interpretor's personal opinion of fahisha. HOWEVER, when reading the f-m english translation it is more clear.
In the f-m Quran it is only translated to one english word "lewdness", and this word is more specific.
"Behavior that is deemed morally impure or unacceptable in a sexual sense; open and public indecency tending to corrupt the morals of the community; gross or wanton indecency in sexual relations."Is homosexuality lewd? No, not according to the f-m Quran.
The last step I ask myself what the practical and moral implications are.
No I am in danger of putting up barriers between myself and people who are NOT violating any of Allah's clear prohibitions. I am in danger of prohibiting something against Allah's will. I am in danger of making the Quran contradictory (men and women have equal rights vs. lesbians are OK but not gay men)
Yes I am in danger of misinterpreting the Quran.Since a "No" can lead to a gross mis-conduct I would not like to say no. And "yes" is not a good option either. That is why I say they (homosexuals) must read the Quran and they must see if they are going against Allah's will or not. You say that there is no compromise in truth. The truth is that you are bending the concept of truth to fit your opinion. Truth IS black and white. You tell me my sister is wrong and she should repent. You do this because you claim it is the truth according to the Quran that she is wrong? Let me ask you, where in the Quran does it say lesbians are "fahisha"?
For the record. I do not like homosexuality but I WILL NOT USE ALLAH TO JUSTIFY MY FEELINGS.
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Salaam all,
I believe the real reason why homosexuality is more prelevant in today's modern society is because of the changing roles, personalities and appearance of men and women. Today women and men look and act so much like each other that the minds of many people are confused in their attraction for mating. Think about it. confused confusedhttp//youarenotsosmart.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/twins_illusion_awesome.jpg
http//images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Mitch-Hewer-skins-755166_393_500.jpg
http//quierosaber.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/rosie.jpg?w=234&h=300Regarding whether Allah condemns gays, a basic reading of the Holy Quran will clearly give us the answer. If anybody has any confusion, u can check the example of the people of Lot. The following verses will make this clear.
Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before! "You practice sex with the men, instead of the women. Indeed, you are a transgressing people."
"Do you have sex with the males, of all the people? "You forsake the wives that your Lord has created for you! Indeed, you are transgressing people."
The Quran forbids any sexual relationship other than in a marriage between a man and a woman. Many homosexual men and women claim that they are born with their sexual preferences and that they have no choice. Although this point is very much in dispute in the medical world, it has no support in the Quran. Even then, irrespective of the nature of homosexuality, this matter would not affect the laws spelled out clearly in the Quran .
We know that this life is a test. Everyone of us has his/her own test. For example someone may be born blind, but that person is expected to live his/her life according to God's law. Others are born poor, short, tall, weak, missing fingers, having big nose...etc but all of them are expected to follow God's law. Some men or women may never marry in their life, or spend part of their life without a spouse. As per the Quran they still have to live a chaste life and avoid any sexual contacts outside a marriage. They have to suppress their sexual feelings to follow God's law. It is a major test and not an easy one for many. Only those who submit to God will do everything they can to follow His law. They know that their salvation and eternal happiness rests in doing so.
Since God condemns homosexuality, then we have to believe that a man or a woman with homosexual feelings is expected to behave like any other human being and follows God's laws if he/she truely believes in them. He/she shall resist his/her feelings , maintains abstinence , use all available resources of help including medical, social and behavioral therapies to overcome their behavior and feelings.
We have cited for the people in this Quran all kinds of examples,
but most people insist upon disbelieving.We have cited in this Quran every kind of example, but the human
being is the most argumentative creature. -
I believe the real reason why homosexuality is more prelevant in today's modern society
How did you come to the conclusion that it is more prevalent in today's societies? confused Do you have any proof or statistics for that?
I don't think this is true at all.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality#History
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Greece
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
Abu Nuwas, the first and foremost Islamic gay poet
Homosexuality in Japan -
How did you come to the conclusion that it is more prevalent in today's societies? confused Do you have any proof or statistics for that?
Salaam leyna,
Plz find the below link to view stats
http//www.avert.org/gay-people.htmMore interesting than the increase in the above numbers is the change in the average person's attitude to homosexuality in recent years as found below
http//filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/attitudes-toward-homosexuality.jpg
http//filipspagnoli.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/social-intolerance-of-muslims-and-immigrants-in-the-us.pngSee below link for more stats
http//filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/stats-on-human-rights/statistics-on-discrimination/statistics-on-discrimination-of-homosexuals/Peace.
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No one is concealing anything. There are no verses prohibiting homosexuality. I challenge you to find me a clear case to back up your claim. The Quran mentions zina, fahisha and transgression. The last two are at times subjective concepts. So whether homosexuality is a fahisha is subjective.
There are verses that tell men to marry women + verses that tell men and women to not have sex except with their partners. Since men can't marry men then they can't have sex with them.
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Peace Emil
,It is not an illness. It is not genetic. It is not the mother of various diseases. It is not the downfall of a community. It does not disrupt the order of the world. This makes me understand that homosexuality cannot be "dangerous" to me or my community.
Well let?s assume what you wrote is true then why God condemned Lot?s people for it, although we know it wasn?t the only thing they were doing but You can?t deny that God counted their homosexuality action as one of their wrong doings didn?t He?
,Whenever it can be linked to homosexuality it is addressed to men only. To me, that doesnt make sense because why would women be exempted?
When the punishment was given to Lot's people, his wife was punished as well. So if homosexuality is fahisha, why is Lot's wife punished when she is not homosexual?Women homosexuality is condemned in 415.
For Lot?s wife, how would you know what was her crime?!
BTW if woman commit adultery gets punishment what about her husband sleeps with men what punishment he should receive in your opinion?!
,Yes I am in danger of misinterpreting the Quran. Yes I am in danger of misinterpreting the Quran.
Be sure you are?God call it transgression in 780-81?and in 235-7 God call the relation must be between husband&wife otherwise is transgression again....God do not perceive relation between same gender as marriage.
235-And they maintain their chastity.
236-Only with their spouses, or those who are rightfully theirs, do they have sexual relations; they are not to be blamed
237-Those who transgress these limits are the transgressors.
Transgression is a sin...And God call the sin haram
733-Say, "My Lord prohibits only evil deeds, be they obvious or hidden, and sins, and unjustifiable aggression, and to set up beside GOD powerless idols, and to say about GOD what you do not know."
Asana
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Women homosexuality is condemned in 415.
How is homosexuality alluded to in 4.15? I see no trace of it. It says fahisha, it is in plural and there is no indication that it is something that women do with each other. Many have interpreted it as adultery. So it seems tht it is an aya free for all. Everybody gets from it what they want.
Salaam
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huruf
,How is homosexuality alluded to in 4.15? I see no trace of it. It says fahisha, it is in plural and there is no indication that it is something that women do with each other. Many have interpreted it as adultery. So it seems tht it is an aya free for all. Everybody gets from it what they want.
What else women would do with each other as Fahishah?
The word of adultery as Zena is clear in 242-3 and the punishment for it too?.Is it possible that God issue 2 kind of punishments for the same crime in His Book in that manner?
Some interpret it as prostitution which is deeply wrong too because the word for that is in 2433......it's "Al-bighaa",
2433-Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD's money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
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There is no contradiction in the Book of God?.The words for each sin has been precisely mentioned.
Peace
Asana -
The words for each sin has been precisely mentioned.
And this is evedent from the use of non-specific/non-restrictive word which includes all sorts of excessive-estreme behaviour and every immoral act, and "prostitution", which connotes a specific perception, is the ultimate of it-therefore I prefer to use "debauchery", in keeping with the context of the Ayat. Use of maid servants for arranging exciting entertainement of any sort for others stands prohibited.
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I do not think in 24.33 it is prostitution. Look at what the whole aya is talking about. The wish for marriage and the possibility of it or lack of it. For me it is evident that it is forbidding men to force girls into having sex with them, if the girls do not want to, which something that men "in need" are prone to attempt wither by harassing, by extortion or by brute force. It says if they, the firls want to keep their chastity. Which is the girl who would ask a man, please sell my whore services to anybody you want. It is preposterous. Was then for muslims then a normal thing that they should want fateyat to start a whoring business. Of course proxenetism is forbidden but that comes also under the first ayas of 24, which deals with out of marriage sexual relations. So prostitution is automatically prohibited. To use women to get money for you from prostitution is self evident that is also prohibited. What it says is that the fact that those fateyat are under your protection, does not entitle you to force them, just because you want to enjoy yourselves.
In 4.15 it doesn't make sense to understand it as feminnine homosexuality unless feminine homosexuality can only be done in groups. In that aya it uses plural, and in the next one uses dual, and that dual can be two males or a male and a female. If in 4.15 lesbianism were meant, what was easier than to use feminine dual? It is speaking about different things. Nothing at all in 4.15 indicates that it is talking about lesbianism, or at least not only about lesbianism, and I do not see any reason to understand that it is under no circumstance talking about prostitution, public prostitution. Or is lesbianism the only fahisha women can do? Or is soliciting not a fahisha? Even if prostitution were meant in 24.33, it would be in a different context. The context in 4.15 is the way to resolve social ills and of protecting those most vulnerable in society.
Of course, if in 24.33 is saying not to force your maids for sex, even if it is not dealing specifically with prostitution, it goes without saying that it is also prohibited, since it would be the most abhorrent extreme of forcing them.
Salaam
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First and foremost Pel you must remember that marriage is a political term and not a religious term. I say that because a government recognizes marriage mainly for property rights issues not for issues of love and family.
When I say marriage I mean a ceremony and papers and such.
Secondly, I don't know that there is a such thing as minor and major sins. Someoneplease correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall th Quran using such terminology. If I am right then sin is sin.
I believe the Allah clearly shows his position on homosexuality in the Quran with the scriptures you previously referenced. However that doesn't mean you should hate homosexuals or disown your friend. We are all sinners and friends of sinners. May Allah guide us all.
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huruf
As I said God is precise in His Book?.He clearly uses different words for different sins?
God uses the Al-Fahishah specifically for homosexuality whether you accept/believe it or not?.The word used by God is Al-Fahishah.Here is the Arabic of the 415;
And now the same exact word in the following verses
780-Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before!
2754-Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an abomination, publicly, while you see?
2755-"You practice sex with the men, lustfully, instead of the women. Indeed, you are ignorant people."
2928-Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination, no one in the world has ever done it before you.
And below verse states how God condemn it.
2419-Those who love to see immorality spread among the believers have incurred a painful retribution in this life and in the Hereafter. GOD knows, while you do not know.
And for Zena the following verses
242-The adulteress and the adulterer you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not be swayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.
243-The adulterer will end up marrying an adulteress or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress will end up marrying an adulterer or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.
The verses 415-16 are referring to homosexuality not prostitution for following reason par from the verses given in above as solid proofs
1-In the system of God with set rules, commands and punishment for any sexual activity out of wedlock is called Zena and its punishment is in 242 ?..If 415 is referring to prostitution then question would be ,what about the punishment for the man/men who get engage in sexual activities with those women? None. The verse is silent on it.
2-If we take 416 by saying that it refers to male prostitution then question would be how come, because the word is a dual form and it applies to one male+one female and also 2 males???If one male and one female commit Al-Fahishah then it?s adultery/Zena and the punishment for it is 100 lashes in public not that keeping them in the house till they die or God make an exit for them as 415 states.
There are two kind of sexual activities take place ?..it?s either between two opposite sex or between two same gender ??..It?s impossible that God leaves out the punishment for the same gender sexual activities because it disturbs/cancels the whole system of marriage protection as He issue 100 lashes for any intimate relation out of marriage and forbids for the believer marrying them unless they repent???If there wasn?t any protection /punishment for homosexuality it means that God forbidden a husband or a wife is free in committing homosexuality without any kind of punishment or feeling bad about it and the foundation of family would collapse...This doesn't fit in God's system.
It?s interesting that people of Lot condemned to death and God uses the word of death for Al-Fahisha too in 415.
Asana
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There is no punishment in 4.15, 4.16. It is not about punishment.
It is funny on the other hand, that this same aya 4.15 has been read as women's adultery by many. For me that is just an evidence of the comprehensiveness of the aya, which might be applied to a wide range of fahisha it it fits. But certainly it can be applied to public soliciting.
I have checked to be on the safe side how the term "faahisa" turns up in the Qur'an. There I give a list a those appearances that cannot be interpreted as referring exclusively to homosexual acts.
There are three cases where not only they cannot be interrpeted exclusively as such, but they annot be applied at all as referring to homosexual acts in that case. Check 4.22, 24.19, 33.30.
1.135
4.19
4.22
4.25
6.151
7.28
7.33
17.32
24.19
33.30
42.37
53.32
65.1Homosexual acts may be fawahish, but it is just one form of fawahish. Fahisha does nto particularly refer to homosexual acts, it refers to anything shameful, dubious, abhorrent... Just the picture you get when you read the Qur'an.
Salaam
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huruf
,There is no punishment in 4.15, 4.16. It is not about punishment.
If it is not a punishment then why 4 witnesses are needed?
Making limited freedom of one as staying in the house which means not allowing leaving the house is a punishment?It sounds like a prison.,I have checked to be on the safe side how the term "faahisa" turns up in the Qur'an. There I give a list a those appearances that cannot be interpreted as referring exclusively to homosexual acts.
You missed a very crucial point in those verses quoted in my previous post. The word you?re talking about in those verses are Fahishah not Al-Fahishah which specified by God referring to that sin.
There are 5 verses with the word of Al-Fahishah used in the Quran?Three of them specifically refer to Lot?s people/homosexuality .They are
780-Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination; no one in the world has done it before!
2754-Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an abomination, publicly, while you see?
2755-"You practice sex with the men, lustfully, instead of the women. Indeed, you are ignorant people."
2928-Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination, no one in the world has ever done it before you.
Verse 2755 specifies what Al-Fahishah is.
The other 2 verses are-415
2419-Those who love to see immorality spread among the believers have incurred a painful retribution in this life and in the Hereafter. GOD knows, while you do not know.
-2419 .
God is showing us in those 3 verses what He means by Al-Fahishah and He uses the same one in 415 to tell us the Fahishah He is talking about is the Al-Fahishah already known to us through verses related to the people of Lot as homosexuality.
Nobody can refute 2755 the immediate verse after 2754 where the Al-Fahishah has been used and by that what God means there.In 2419 God reminds us what would be the subsequences of spreading that Fahishah as He calls it Al-Fahishah.
,Homosexual acts may be fawahish, but it is just one form of fawahish.
You are right ,that?s why God specified the Homosexuality in those verses in above by prefix of ?Al? to specify it without any trace of doubt in our minds what He means in 415 and 2419.
Here are those verses that you quoted .None of them has been specified as ?Al-Fahishah?.
419
422
425
6511
728
733
1732
3330
4237
5332
651
Sorry for repeating the verses...i hope now i'm clear on what i meant.
Peace
Asana -
There is no punishment in 4.15, 4.16. It is not about punishment.
It is funny on the other hand, that this same aya 4.15 has been read as women's adultery by many. For me that is just an evidence of the comprehensiveness of the aya, which might be applied to a wide range of fahisha it it fits. But certainly it can be applied to public soliciting.
I have checked to be on the safe side how the term "faahisa" turns up in the Qur'an. There I give a list a those appearances that cannot be interpreted as referring exclusively to homosexual acts.
There are three cases where not only they cannot be interrpeted exclusively as such, but they annot be applied at all as referring to homosexual acts in that case. Check 4.22, 24.19, 33.30.
1.135
4.19
4.22
4.25
6.151
7.28
7.33
17.32
24.19
33.30
42.37
53.32
65.1Homosexual acts may be fawahish, but it is just one form of fawahish. Fahisha does nto particularly refer to homosexual acts, it refers to anything shameful, dubious, abhorrent... Just the picture you get when you read the Qur'an.
Salaam
Nice compilation. I too came to a similar conclusion
They are called musrifeen in the context of them preferring men over ladies, hence exceeding the limits (781). They are also called fasiqeen/transgressors( 2174). 1716, 259, and 649 are good verses for fasiqeen, which all help us understand what these guys were doing. So, even if they were straight, it would not matter. They would still be zalimeen/wicked/unjust, committers of al fahisha/lewdness, musrifeen/those who exceed the limits, etc.
what did these people do? They tried to force Lot and his family out of town BECAUSE they (Lot's company) wished to be pure - 782 Their response to reason/sound judgment (117 was to banish Lot.
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Anything which is done in the presence or with anyone else gets apparent and falls in apparent/surfaced and will relate only to that which is done individually in seclusion, and in the seclusion of one individual there can't be homosexuality. Hence it is only one aspect or extreme form of .
Its range can be gauged here
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/053.%20An%20Najam/Temo%2001%2053.32.gif
And those people are those who consciously avoid committing major and grave sins and illicit sexual activities except the minor occasional lapses.5332
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Yes it is clear what you mean now, but asfar as I can see there is no way you can determine in the context that. 24.19 refers in any way to homosexuality except if you already have determined that that is what it has to mean. In fact, the context points to quite the opposite, that the fahisha it is speaking about is not that, but the spreading of slander about honest women. 24.19 disprooves your assertion.
The same can be said of 4.15. There is nothing, aboslutely nothin, that points to homosexuality, except that you look at it determined to see it as such. In this case homosexual fahisa might be included, but then why only women's homosexuality.
The fact that four witnesses are required does not mean that it is a punishment, but that you have to prove something beyond contest. As to keeping women in the house, ?which house? and not let them go out ?where do you get that from? It says take them into the houses, not do not allow them to go out. No jail, no prison no nothing. A pnealty is previously fixed, may be between a minimum penalty wihout aggravating circumstances, and a maximum with them, but fixed. Zina 100 lashes, for the Prophets's wives double, defamation of zina against women 80 lashes, Prophet's wives double that. ?What kind of penalty is that of what you call limited freedom of between one second and a whole life? ?Is that serious? ?What kind of joke is that? ?And what would be the double of tht for the Prophet's wives?
And what then about 4.15? Annoy them is a penalty? What kind of penalty is annoy them? ?And why, according to what you say, the zani and the zaniya should be punished equallly and the homosexual acts of males and females should be punished in the case of women and not in the case of men. Finally all the great and abhorrent descriptions and tirades about "looties" and all the "alfahisha" that you unquestioningly relate to homosexuality refer to males and not to lesbians, why when the chicken come to roost the punishment is precisely for lesbians and the lootis get scot free, with just some annoyance? I thought lottery was out of the question for muslims. And that is what this lookds like, lottery.
In fact if you need four witnesses in 4.15, it is because society is going to take charge of umprotected people who could not do it by themselve, like the case of street prostitutes. Just the same as you need several doctors" testimony if you pretend to put somebody in mental teatment, because you cannot force people to live here or there for their own protection without proving that they do need that protection. What can be understood from 4.15 is that you take those wretched women off the street and put them into the houses, no leave on the street, and upkeep them there in charge of soceity till another means of living are with their reach. And if they should find no other means, then they are in charge of society till they die. Simple. ?This also fits in the matter which is dealt with in those ayas and which is the subject of Sura An-Nisaa'.
I do not exclude that there may be other applications of this aya, but that is the immediaty idea it evoques, and the idea that sticks after doing plenty of pondering. I do not see any other thing that suits better, although I repeat, I do not exclude other possibilities, but homosexuality per se and exclusively not at all, unles it is public multiple homosexual orgies, which I do not think were very frequest then nor now nor ever.
Salaam
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huruf
It looks like you?ve decided to ignore major verses where God recognises intimate relation only between opposite sex and only with the spouses?.And giving punishment to those who commit it out of wedlock.
You ignore the verses related to the people of Lot specially 2754-55 where the definition of the word is so clear and you stick to 2929 while you forget that God has already told us the punishment for stealing/thief and other vice .And as soon as God say what they do in 2928 in 2929 the first thing is again definition of their Al-Fahishah as homosexuality and then goes on telling them what else they do.
You persist on interpreting 415 as prostitution on the street while forgetting that there are only bunch of women on the street while forgetting the big business/organisation that work at home. And no where verse is telling us take the women of the street.
You ignore 416 where God specifically uses dual form to tell us about the relation of 2 males too and implying the same punishment for them as for women in 415 in this manner
416- The couple who commits (---) shall be punished. If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.
The punishment for the two in 416 definitely referring to 2 men because if the sin happens between a male+a female then it is adultery which already God told us the punishment for it .
If keeping them in the home doesn?t sound like a kind of limiting the freedom to you which means a kind of prison for the person then maybe you should stay indoors for a month or so then see how it feels if one has to stay for longer than that?..BTW the verse is saying about the houses which a building can be built by Islamic government and call it house and put them there by watching them not coming out ?In this way the essence of the command has been fulfilled?.Of course you can argue about it but you can?t deny it that it?s a house and God hasn?t specified what kind of house.
You wouldn?t want to accept that prostitution is Zena and punishment for it is 100 lashes unless you?d like separate the prostitution from adultery which means sexual relation between 2 unmarried people whether one pay for it or it's a consensual sex.
You don?t have answer to the question where if you?re asked what about a husband or a wife sleep with same gender, are they allowed in doing so if lesbians and homosexuality are not condemned by God?
You don?t have answer to the sin of the men who commit in 416, what sin are they commiting, Prostitution or adultry?
At the end you?re free argue and interpret 415-16 as wish but you can?t refute the command of God by telling us with whom intimate relation must happen and violating it sin and sin is prohibited.
Peace
Asana
