Traditional Sunni Challenge to Quranities

[Bigmo]

Salam Antibhondo,

My apologies, I have a bad habit of skipping over lengthy posts just because there is too many topics mixed in.

Because I am not infected with the subjectivity of the Sunnis/Shia who have made it as gospel that the prophet was a man who could neither read nor write.

My reading with all the other verses that speak of the revelation is that this accusation that was made is regarding the prophet's writing of the text. Also, from verse 8522, I would also argue that there is a "master copy" of the Quran somewhere on earth which is written on a tablet/stone.

Actually, there is no need to support any point since you are staring off with the "false premise" that "Mohammed was illiterate" and then proceeding to prove or disprove such false premise. The Quran has never told us Mohammed was illiterate (the Sunnis/Shia with their wrong understanding of "ummy" came-up with such conclusion). So the burden of proof to prove he was illiterate falls on you for making such claim.

It takes away from the value that the hadith lovers are trying to associate to them. The argument that "the people who wrote the hadith are the same who wrote the Quran" is a false statement. The Quran was penned/written by the prophet, therefore anyone who came would only be copying what is already existing, not authoring something that did not exist in the written world. To bring a modern example the government of Saudi Arabia (American allies) have the biggest printing set-up of the Quran - does that act of copying give them any special authority or status? the answer is "no" because you know it is a simple copy job.

I know this from 8522.

Mohammed would not know nor could he have stopped this from happening. The only way to counter this is by finding the "master copy" which is written on tablet/stone.

Your argument is correct. In-fact, you do not need to suppose this since the Quran(s) we have all have slight deviations (verse stops, rendition of certain words, etc.) and none of us are able to state with certainty which is the more correct Quran.

It is waiting for you or me or any other truth seeker to find it...

Actually there are hadiths that says that the prophet only left behind after him a copy of the Quran and the compnaions never had any text except the Quran and few lines of general orders like freeing prisoners etc. Ahmed Rifai spoke about that yesterday on Egyptian TV on the Dream 2 Channel. There are many hadiths that contradict each other and most of all contradict what Sunni scholars say. If you speak Arabic you can look at the link I gave concerning Ahmed Rifai videos.

I agree with you that Ummi does not mean illiterate in the way we commonaly understand it. It can also mean gentile or lack of knowledge of the scriptures.

[ramzi]

Actually there are hadiths that says that the prophet only left behind after him a copy of the Quran and the compnaions never had any text except the Quran and few lines of general orders like freeing prisoners etc. Ahmed Rifai spoke about that yesterday on Egyptian TV on the Dream 2 Channel. There are many hadiths that contradict each other and most of all contradict what Sunni scholars say. If you speak Arabic you can look at the link I gave concerning Ahmed Rifai videos.

I agree with you that Ummi does not mean illiterate in the way we commonaly understand it. It can also mean gentile or lack of knowledge of the scriptures.

Salaam,

It's ADNAN Al-Rifai lol, not Ahmed

His first program can be found here, http//www.thekr.net/index.php/video

I don't agree with everything he says, but his main idea is correct.

Regards
Ramzi

[antibhondo]

Salam Antibhondo,

Because I am not infected with the subjectivity of the Sunnis/Shia who have made it as gospel that the prophet was a man who could neither read nor write.

My reading with all the other verses that speak of the revelation is that this accusation that was made is regarding the prophet's writing of the text. Also, from verse 8522, I would also argue that there is a "master copy" of the Quran somewhere on earth which is written on a tablet/stone.

---

First of all, please tell the authority of "quranix.net" that all the Transliterations of the ayats after 8517 are misplaced in the website. Please tell them to fix it.

---

So, you do not have any ayat that directly and clearly expresses whether Muhammad (sm) could write or could not. Basically, this ayat (255) itself is not sufficient to prove whether Muhammad (sm) was able to write. What you assume depends completely upon you. This ayat, however, does not negate the possibility that Muhammad (sm) could have wrote. But as long as you call yourself a Quran-only, you have to present definite proof from Quran ONLY. And, please, as long as Quran does not negate the possibility that Muhammad (sm) could not write, do not accuse anyone negatively for holding the concept that Muhammad (sm) could not write.

Actually, there is no need to support any point since you are staring off with the "false premise" that "Mohammed was illiterate" and then proceeding to prove or disprove such false premise. The Quran has never told us Mohammed was illiterate (the Sunnis/Shia with their wrong understanding of "ummy" came-up with such conclusion). So the burden of proof to prove he was illiterate falls on you for making such claim.

Let us look at the following ayat that tell us something else
2948
Translated by Edip-Layth
You were not reciting any book before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.

This ayat confirms us about the literacy status of Muhammad (sm) before the revelation. It says that Muhammad (sm) never wrote anything by his own hand.

So, according to this ayat, your translation of 255 is definitely WRONG. The people who rejected of-course knew that Muhammad (sm) could not write anything. So, they could not have said that Muhammad (sm) wrote the fables. They had no reason to say that Muhammad (sm) wrote the mythologies himself.

So, it has also been proved that it is not "false premise" that "Mohammed was illiterate".

Now I ask you again,
Do you know any ayat else that support your point?

If the answer is NO, then, your assumption is dubious (that has already failed against 294, which cannot be the assumption for further processing of any argument.

I bet you will revise your previous answer now. So I am not going to go for the next points of your response.

Thank you.

(Please pray for me. I need that very much.)

[progod]

Peace,

Antibhondo,

I find it ridiculous that you think that not investigating news which one chooses to believe is acceptable and some how Quranic. That is why I did not respond to your post. Any news you believe in you should investigate. Do I really need to provide a Quranic verse for that? The Quran provides a template for the basis upon which we should accept without a doubt any serious news that comes to us, especially as it concerns as accusation.

Godbless,
Anwar

[antibhondo]

Peace,

Antibhondo,

I find it ridiculous that you think that not investigating news which one chooses to believe is acceptable and some how Quranic. That is why I did not respond to your post. Any news you believe in you should investigate. Do I really need to provide a Quranic verse for that? The Quran provides a template for the basis upon which we should accept without a doubt any serious news that comes to us, especially as it concerns as accusation.

Godbless,
Anwar

Brother Anwar
Assalamu Alaikum.

I could not make myself clear.

Please carefully read my following para

combining these ayats together, for a non-fasiq person, we can say that if a non-fasiq person brings any news other than accusatory ones, investigation is not a Quranic requirement. However, It does not mean that you are bound to accept the news. It does not mean either that you cannot do any investigation of the news. You can impose any condition that makes you sure that the news accepted through those condition are fault-free and without any doubt.

Just you cannot say that this was said by the Quran. You cannot say that this is a Quranic requirement, or according to this ayat or that ayat Mutawatir hadith should be.......What you think about the "should be" of any news from any person is completely your own speech. Please do not say something in the name of Quran, when it did not say it at all.

Muhamamd (sm) himself was not allowed to do so (6944-47).

You said {{Any news you believe in you should investigate. Do I really need to provide a Quranic verse for that?}}

Did I negate that? I just said that whatever "should" you want to apply, feel free to apply as long as it is not anti-quranic. But do not say that this "should" is said by quran if quran does not say that.

Thank you.

[progod]

Peace,

I'll look up and post some pertinent passages since you seem to be incapable of doing your own homework, and only capable of arguing the contrary.

Godbless,
Anwar

[antibhondo]

Brother Anwar

Assalamu Alaikum.

Peace,

I'll look up and post some pertinent passages...

That would be very nice of you. I expect that will be a great help not only to yourself but also to me and all the members of this forum.

May Allah guide us all. pr

[antibhondo]

Brother Layth

Assalamu Alaikum.

Probably, you have missed this comment. The main point of the post is re-stated here

Actually, there is no need to support any point since you are staring off with the "false premise" that "Mohammed was illiterate" and then proceeding to prove or disprove such false premise. The Quran has never told us Mohammed was illiterate (the Sunnis/Shia with their wrong understanding of "ummy" came-up with such conclusion). So the burden of proof to prove he was illiterate falls on you for making such claim.

Let us look at the following ayat that tells us something else
2948
Translated by Edip-Layth
You were not reciting any book before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.

This ayat confirms us about the literacy status of Muhammad (sm) before the revelation. It says that Muhammad (sm) never wrote anything by his own hand.

But the translation of 255 shows that
Translated by Edip-Layth
They said, "Mythologies of the ancient people; he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening."

Translation of Muhammad Asad was right.
And they say, Fables of ancient times which he has caused to be written down, so that they might be read out to him at morn and evening!"

So, according to ayat 2948, your translation of 255 is definitely WRONG. The people who rejected of-course knew that Muhammad (sm) could not write anything. So, they could not have said that Muhammad (sm) wrote the fables. They had no reason to say that Muhammad (sm) wrote the mythologies himself.

So, it has also been proved by QURAN ONLY that it is not "false premise" that "Mohammed was illiterate".

Now I ask you,

Do you have any explanation for this? (Please tell something!)

I bet you will revise your previous answer now.

Thank you.

(Please pray for me. I need that very much.)

[Tlepsh]

2947 & 48 And similarly, We have sent down to you the Book. Thus, those whom We have given the Book will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. The only ones who mock Our revelations are the rejecters. You were not reciting any Book before this BOOK, nor were you writing IT (this BOOK) down by your seldf/by your power/by your own knoyledge. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.

Here the subject of the discussion is THE BOOK that is sent down by Allah which is not written by any humanbeing. The verse does not say that prophet did not know how to read and write.

[progod]

Peace,

The 'Al' in kitaab can be 'the', 'this' or even an indicator of collective, just meaning 'teachings, books, writing or scripture.'

Godbless,
Anwar

[rahenijaat1]

Salam and Peace on Isa and everyone!

Allah sent His Messenger(SAW) with "The Message".

And Allah ordered us to obey the Messenger.
---"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger." (Al-Nisaa-59)---
---"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)---

What is "Obedience to Allah"?-----What is "Obedience to the Messenger"?
Are these two different things?---Or---Are they one thing?

The Question is
Can anyone obey the Messenger without following "The Message"?

Today, the Ummah answers
Yes, it is possible to obey the Messenger without following "The Message".---How???

They say "Obedience to the Messenger" is the ahadith (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Al-Muslim, etc.).
So, if you follow the ahadith, you obey the Messenger.
And if you have obeyed the Messenger by following the ahadith, you have obeyed Allah.

---"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)---

So, today the Ummah is obeying the Messenger by following the ahadith, which is equal to obeying Allah.

The Ummah have finally got rid of "The Message" that the Messenger brought.---So sad!

[progod]

483 (Y. Ali) When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Messenger, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of Allah unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan.

494 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation "Thou art none of a believer!" Coveting the perishable goods of this life with Allah are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves before, till Allah conferred on you His favours Therefore carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware of all that ye do. -

Godbless,
Anwar

[antibhondo]

2947 & 48 And similarly, We have sent down to you the Book. Thus, those whom We have given the Book will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. The only ones who mock Our revelations are the rejecters. You were not reciting any Book before this BOOK, nor were you writing IT (this BOOK) down by your seldf/by your power/by your own knoyledge. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.

Here the subject of the discussion is THE BOOK that is sent down by Allah which is not written by any humanbeing. The verse does not say that prophet did not know how to read and write.

Tlepsh

Assalamu Alaikum.

Thank you.

Edip-Layth translated 255 as
http//quranix.net/#?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&keywords=25%3A5&sinall=cur&slogic=and

They said, "Mythologies of the ancient people; he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening.

In the end-note associated with this translation was the following statement

Contemporaries of Muhammad knew that Muhammad was a literate person. Prophet Muhammad wrote God's message with his own hand.

The interesting thing is that, in the translation of the Ayat 2948, the same Edip-Layth translated expressing something very different
http//quranix.net/#?RTQ=1&TMG=1&MA=1&RK=1&SH=1&TE=1&A=1&L=en&NA=10&keywords=29%3A48&sinall=cur&slogic=and

The Sign Given to Muhammad
2948
You were not reciting any book before this, nor were you writing one down by your hand. In that case, the doubters would have had reason.

The translation clearly indicates that The Prophet did neither recite nor write any book. So, the doubters had no logic to doubt. So, the contemporaries had no reason to doubt that it could be written by Muhammad (sm) himself!

[antibhondo]

Salam and Peace on Isa and everyone!

Allah sent His Messenger(SAW) with "The Message".

And Allah ordered us to obey the Messenger.
---"O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger." (Al-Nisaa-59)---
---"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)---

What is "Obedience to Allah"?-----What is "Obedience to the Messenger"?
Are these two different things?---Or---Are they one thing?

The Question is
Can anyone obey the Messenger without following "The Message"?

Today, the Ummah answers
Yes, it is possible to obey the Messenger without following "The Message".---How???

They say "Obedience to the Messenger" is the ahadith (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Al-Muslim, etc.).
So, if you follow the ahadith, you obey the Messenger.
And if you have obeyed the Messenger by following the ahadith, you have obeyed Allah.

---"He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allah." (Al-Nisa-80)---

So, today the Ummah is obeying the Messenger by following the ahadith, which is equal to obeying Allah.

The Ummah have finally got rid of "The Message" that the Messenger brought.---So sad!

rahenijaat1
Assalamu Alaikum.

it is not possible to obey the Messenger without following "The Message".
You are very wrong about the Ummah (you mean the Sunnis or Shias, or whoever thinks of following the practices of Muhammad (sm) important?).

No sunnis or shias (if they are really sunnis or shias) can think that.

In fact no muslim can think that.

[rahenijaat1]

rahenijaat1
Assalamu Alaikum.

it is not possible to obey the Messenger without following "The Message".
You are very wrong about the Ummah (you mean the Sunnis or Shias, or whoever thinks of following the practices of Muhammad (sm) important?).

No sunnis or shias (if they are really sunnis or shias) can think that.

In fact no muslim can think that.

You are right when you say---it is not possible to obey the Messenger without following "The Message".

But look at the people of the ummah.
Are they truly following The Message?
Or---Are they following Sahih Al-Bukhari and killing the blasphemer and the apostate, and blowing up girls schools and universities?

[antibhondo]

You are right when you say---it is not possible to obey the Messenger without following "The Message".

But look at the people of the ummah.
Are they truly following The Message?
Or---Are they following Sahih Al-Bukhari and killing the blasphemer and the apostate, and blowing up girls schools and universities?

rahenijaat1
Assalamu Alaikum.

I respect your devotion to THE MESSAGE. Please allow me to inform you that this "UMMAH" is not following Sahih Al-Bukhari . They are studying the Sahih Al-Bukhari and others to EXTRACT the actual practice of the messenger.

The "MESSAGE" has clearly stated that we cannot be guided and get Allah's mercy other than following this messenger. The message has clearly stated that if we love Allah then we must follow the messenger.

The message has also clearly stated that this messenger was sent to ALL OF THE MANKINDS.
{7158 Say "O mankind, I am God's messenger to you all....and follow him that you may be guided.}

I have already shown with a simple example that if you are sent a letter with a command written in the letter, then merely obeying the command does not require following the bearer of the letter, and indeed, merely obeying the command does mean only obeying the commander, not the bearer.

Therefore,
merely obeying the Quran does not equal obeying or following the messenger.

And therefore,
merely obeying the Quran does not satisfy the Quran's command of following and obeying the messenger.

Therefore,
A trial to obey ONLY QURAN clearly leads to the way of DISOBEYING THE QURAN ITSELF.

This is the "UMMAH"'s view concluded from the Quran. So, the "UMMAH" tries to extract the practices of the messenger from careful studying of the available reliable sources.

Yes, the "UMMAH" thinks that Sahih Al-Bukhari is one of the reliable sources and most probably it contains a valuable portion of the practice of our messenger. So, people who study the hadiths to know how our messenger followed the commands of Allah, are actually trying to obey the Quran's command, nothing other than that.

By the way, do you have any idea at which point of history Bukhari collected hadith? And do you have any idea at which point of time the Madhabs formed?

I request you to go through a careful study on the formation of the Madhabs and collection of Ahadiths.

I bet, some interesting points are awaiting your kind attention, there, my friend!

[Mazhar]

And what was that which the Messenger followed in letter and spirit?

If we know that and follow that in letter and spirit only then we will be following him, otherwise, whatever we follow at the saying of others, he is not responsible and in that case neither would he own us.

[rahenijaat1]

antibhondo
Salam and Peace on you brother!

Indeed, there are inconsistencies in the man-made books of ahadith, because they are from ghairullah and destined to have inconsistencies and contradictions. And moreover, these man-made books of ahadith, Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Al-Muslim are not at all Authorized by Allah as a source of Law. And how can they ever be?

So, when the man-made books of ahadith are not Authorized by Allah as the Hadith of the Messenger, and these books contain a lot of contradictions and many of the ahadith go against Allah's Exalted Quran, then how come they mean to complete the obedience to the Messenger?

This is a matter of Authorization from Allah. I hope we know what the terminology "Authorization from Allah" means.
Read and see what does Allah mean by "Authorization from Allah"

-----"They are not but (mere) names which you have named, you and your forefathers, Allah has sent down no Authority for that. They follow not except a guess and that which (they) themselves desire. Although, surely there has come to them Guidance from their Lord." (Al-Najam-23)

Allah authorized a human being as His Last Prophet. So, we have Faith in it that Muhammad (SAW) is the last Prophet of Allah.
Allah certified the companions of the last Prophet as rightly guided and blessed. So, we have Faith in it.

First of all, we have Iman in Allah, that is why we have Iman in everything that Allah Authorized.

For example, Allah issued an Authorized Order for the Angels to bow before Adam. Because the angels had Faith in Allah, that is why they immediately bowed before Adam. But Iblees refused to accept the Authorized Order of Allah and didn't bow, and was cursed forever.-----So the thing that matters, is what Allah authorized. Bowing is only to Allah, but the angels bowed before Adam because Allah authorized this act.

So, Authorization from Allah!-----Where is the Authorization from Allah for anything that we claim. And if there is no Authorization from Allah, then it is a guesswork.
Allah didn't Authorize Umar bin Khattaab as His Prophet. So, the ummah will never accept Umar bin Khattaab as a Prophet.

-----Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim, etc. were not Authorized and Certified by Allah to compile books of the Messenger's sayings.-----Then how can their books of ahadith for which Allah never Revealed any Authorization, be Authorized, Trustworthy and a Source of Deen?

-----"They are not but (mere) names which you have named, you and your forefathers, Allah has sent down no Authority for that. They follow not except a guess and that which (they) themselves desire. Although, surely there has come to them Guidance from their Lord." (Al-Najam-23)

Did Allah Authorize in His Exalted Quran, the words "Sihah Sittah", "Sahih Al-Bukhari", "Sahih Al-Muslim", "Ahlul Sunnah Wal Jamah", "Salafee", etc, etc???-----No, not at all.---Then who authorized Imam Bukhari to do which the Messenger himself never did, and which his rightly guided Companions never dared to do.
Yes, although there has come to us The Guidance (Authorized Al-Quran only) from our Lord, but still, we don't verify from The Quran what our millions of big-ones (Imams) of the ummah issue as Deen.

If someone clearly refuses to accept Imam Bukhari and his book as "Authorized Source of Deen", what would you say?---On what ground would you issue a fatawah against him?---What Authority from Allah do you have to call him a "kafir" or "out of Islam"?---"They follow not except a guess and that which (they) themselves desire"---If we don't have any Authorization from Allah's Quran, then it is merely a guesswork, and nothing but a guesswork, no matter how many millions and millions of big scholars of past and present support it.

Man, in spite of all his hallmark achievements, is nothing but an absolute zero. Finally, into the dust to become dust.
All those millions and millions of scholars, past and present, died and will die, and will become earth into the earth, and they will be raised again and questioned about what they said and did.

Is it wise,---Is it wise,---again, Is it wise to obey those who will be questioned---Or---Is it wise to obey The One, Who will question???
Is it wise to obey those who are given---Or---Is it wise to obey The One, Who gives???
Is it wise to obey those who are being watched---Or---Is it wise to obey The One, Who is watching and writing???

In all ages, uncertified people have always passed on "uncertified things" as Deen. Those unathorized people have always put forward unauthorized sayings as the source of Deen. And people who are fearless of Allah's Strong Hold, have always put their faith in those uncertified things as a source of Deen.

Just imagine, Imam Bukhari never saw, met and talked to the Messenger, and as such he couldn't. Yet he claimed to compile the sayings of the Messenger which he never heard with his own ears from the Messenger. And that Unauthorized compilation is claimed and accepted by millions of scholars and the ummah as the explanation of The Authorized Quran.

Unauthorized explanations of An Authorized Quran!!!
Unauthorized books of Unauthorized Imams.
-----Allah's Quran does not Certify and Authorize Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim and such people.

The big-ones of the ummah say man-made books of ahadith are not Unauthorized.----Okay! If they are not unauthorized, then who Authorized them?-----Where in Al-Quran it says that, alongwith Al-Quran, the ummah have to follow the extra-Quranic sayings of the Messenger?!!

((1))---People say in Al-Quran, Allah has ordered us to obey the Messenger, and you say that following Al-Bukhari and Sihah Sittah are the obedience to the Messenger.-----Did Allah Authorize Sahih Al-Bukhari as the Obedience to the Messenger?---No!---Then what is the Clear Authority in favour of this claim? If there is no Divine Authority from Allah, then this is nothing but mere conjecture-----We should fear Allah!
((2))---People say man-made books of ahadith are Al-Hikmah. Who said this?---Did Allah say this?---No!---Then this is nothing but mere conjecture.-----We should fear Allah!
((3))---It is said that the extra-Quranic sayings of the Messenger are "Hidden Wahee".-----Did Allah Authorize that extra-Quranic sayings of the Messenger are "Hidden Wahee"???

Now read the answers to the above (3) points, and contemplate
((1))-----Allah, in His Safe, Holy and Exalted Quran has ordered us to obey the Messenger, and not the Prophet. Where ever Allah ordered us to obey the Messenger in The Quran, Allah used the word "Messenger", and not "Prophet". A Messenger is always with The Message. It clearly means that we have to obey the Messenger by obeying The Message.
Allah has never ordered us to follow the extra-Quranic sayings of the Messenger.

-----"Follow (O mankind) that which has been sent down to you from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any awliyah (their books). Little it is you remember." (Al-Aaraaf-3)-----

It is very much clear form the above verse---and do not follow besides Him any awliyah ---means follow Allah, and following Allah means follow what Allah has sent down, that is Al-Quraan only.-----And following any awliyah means following their written or compiled books. So, it is forbidden because it is shirk.

So, Allah ordered to obey the Messenger. And also Allah ordered to follow "The Message".-----So, obeying the Messenger, and following The Message, are the same thing.-----Obey the Messenger by following The Message that he brought.
Doesn't this directly go into the mind (intellect) and then into the heart?-----Peep into your heart, and you will find The Truth there.

((2))---Allah is Hakeem. His Book is Al-Hikmah.
Allah is The Most Wise. His Book is The Wisdom.
The Messenger himself took The Wisdom from Allah's Quran, and taught to others.

((3))---Nowhere in The Quran, Allah said the extra-Quranic sayings of the Messenger is "Hidden Wahee".

The Message is more important than the Messenger. That is why the Messenger passed away, but The Message remains with the ummah. But the ummah have forgotten The Message, and is after the Messenger's sayings, and the Messenger is not with them.-----Isn't it so?---Say-----"Yes it so!"

The Messenger was given the designation of "The Messenger". So he was and is, the Messenger, in his life and also after his death.-----But if the Messenger had been given the designation of "The Explainer of Al-Quran", then Allah would have kept him alive until Al-Qiyamah to explain The Quran for the ummah.---But we know that the Messenger is no more with the ummah after his death. Now who will explain Al-Quran for them?---In fact, Allah's Quran is for the mankind, and It is Self-explanatory. Because there is no need of an explainer of a Self-explanatory Quran, that is why Allah called the Messenger back, and let His Exalted and easy-to-understand Quran with the ummah.

Indeed, until the Messenger was alive, no one was better than him to explain The Message. He used to explain Al-Quran from within Al-Quran. Now the Messenger is no more with us.-----Okay! You read The Quran, and you will understand everything. There is no need of Sahih Al-Bukhari, any tafseer or teacher.

The Messenger is the Messenger for his ummah and the mankind until Al-Qiyamah. But he was an explainer of Al-Quran for the Sahaba.-----After the Messenger's death, the Sahaba themselves contemplated in Al-Quran and solved their problems and ran their matters.

And if the Messenger is the Explainer of Al-Quran for the ummah until Al-Qiyamah, then where is the Messenger? He is not with the ummah, because he has died. And the books which Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim compiled using the name of the Messenger, can never be the replacement of the Messenger, because the Messenger himself never narrated those ahadith to Imam Bukhari. Even Imam Bukhari heard the ahadith form someone who himself never heard the Messenger narrating his ahadith.

Allah didn't send down any Verse to Authorize Imam Bukhari's work as "The Second Source of Deen".-----And the Messenger never put his "Signature of Attestation" or never put his "Seal of Authorization" on Imam Bukhari's book.-------Unauthorized books of Unauthorized Imams.

Now, call your intellect and think for a moment, the Sahaba took Guidance from Al-Quran in their own specific environment, surroundings and the things they used. We will never find aero planes, computers, machines, space technology, etc. in their times. Now we are in a different environment with different things to use, so we will take Guidance from Allah's Quran in accordance with our needs.

Indeed, the matter of "Faith in Allah", and "Behaviourism" is the same for all times, and these matters are discussed to the last detail in Allah's Quran. Rest of the things are related to the environments in which people of different times live.-----If we try to look and implement those specific applications of Quran that was applied at the time of Sahaba, we will be perplexed. We have to implement Al-Quran in our own surroundings and environments.

Allah will not question us about the old days, horses, donkeys, swords, etc. Allah will question us about the applications of Al-Quran in our times, environment, things, computers, space technology, modern equipments and their usage.

The Messenger and his rightly guided Sahaba set an example of taking Guidance from Allah's Quran in their times and environment, and the specific things they used.

Now it is up to us to set an example of taking Guidance from Allah's Quran according to our own time, environment, and the specific things that we use.

Remember, the Specific environment and Specific things that people use, in their times, create specific problems for them. And their problems may not be the problems for next generations.-----Sahaba rode horses, camels, donkeys, but we don't.----We travel on motor bikes, trains, and aero planes, but Sahaba didn't.

Now, since, Allah's Quran is A Guidance for all times, places and environments, so all the generations will take Guidance from Allah's Quran to solve their problems and settle their matters that exist in their environments.

Did you see, time, environment and things, change-----but Allah's Guidance (Al-Quran) remains unchanged. This is The Proof that Allah's Quran is Supreme over all times and all environments.

The people of the ummah who were without Sahih Al-Bukhari, they were The Super Power of their time (Sahaba only). Weren't they?---Yes, they were.-----And today the ummah is with Sahih Al-Bukhari, and they are the slaves of the non-muslims. Beggars at their doors.----Haram sects. Fighting with each other. Humiliation, Downfall, Terrorism, Mysticism, Corrupt Rulers and Misguided Religious Scholars---Why???-----Because the ummah today have no love for "The Only Certified and Authorized Source of Deen, Al-Quran."

The ummah, 200 years after the death of the Messenger, have found for themselves another quran.
Read and contemplate

-----"And when Our Verses are recited to them as clear Evidence, those who hope not for their meeting with Us, say ?Bring a quran other than this (Quran), or make
changes in this (Quran).? Say (O Messenger) ?It is not for me to change It on my own accord. I follow not but that which is revealed unto me. Indeed, I fear, if I were to disobey my Lord, the punishment of a Great Day.? (Younus15)

So, the liars couldn't stand the Straight, Clear and Easy-to-understand Instructions of Allah's Quran. They demanded---?Bring a quran other than this (Quran), or make changes in this (Quran)."---The Messenger refused and said---?It is not for me to change It (Allah's Quran) on my own accord. I follow not but that which is revealed unto me. Indeed, I fear, if I were to disobey my Lord, the punishment of a Great Day.?---

And look, ---what the Messenger never did, ---and what the rightly guided Sahaba never did,-----it is the Persian Imam Bukhari and Persian Imam Muslim who did it. And the ummah and their scholars fall on it like flies fall on sweets.

And to make it more impressive, they claimed that Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Al-Muslim are from Allah (Hidden Revelation).
-----"Then woe be to those who write the Scripture (man-made books of shariah, ahadith) with their own hands, then they say, ?This is from Allah, (they say man-made books of ahadith are also Wahee, means from Allah)? that they may sell it for a small price. Woe be to them for that which their hands have written, and woe be to them for that which they earn." (Al-Buqarah-79)

Big Imaams, allaamas, scholars and leaders fabricated a big Lie, and declared from their own desire, that unauthorized man-made books of ahadith Bukhari, Muslim and others are The Second Source of Islaam. What they said and still say, is not authorized by a Divine Authority from Allah. And anything which is not approved by Allah, is nothing but Lie, Fabrication and Sorcery (Jadoo, Magic).

-----"Those who do not believe in Allah's Verses, only they invent falsehood. And it is they, who are the liars." (Al-Nahl-105)
-----"Woe unto each sinful liar." (Al-Jasia-7)

Read the following Verse and contemplate

-----"The Quraan is not a fabricated Hadith but a confirmation of what has existed before it, and a detailed explanation of everything, and A Guidance, and A Mercy for the people who believe." (Yousuf-111)

Allah is confirming, that His Quraan is not a fabricated hadith, whereas, Allah didn't confirm Imaam Bukhari, Imaam Muslim or other man-made books of ahadith that they are not fabricated.
And when Allah is saying that His Quraan is not fabricated, then only Allah's Quraan is not fabricated. Else are, for sure, fabricated.
There are many examples in The Quraan, where Allah gave His Judgement about one thing, but the same Judgement was not given about any other thing. Then the thing which has Allah's Judgement in its favour is authorized, else are unauthorized. For Example

-----"And what We have revealed to you (O Messenger) of the Book, it is The Truth." (Faatir-31)

So, here in this verse Allah says that His revealed Book, The Quraan is The Truth. Allah certified only His revealed Quraan as The Truth. So, The Quraan is The Only Book of Truth. No other book (Imaam Bukhari, Imaam Muslim, etc) is the book of Truth, because they have no Divine Certificate from Allah as The Book of Truth.

Same way, only Allah's Quraan is "not a fabricated book", because only Allah's Quran has a Certificate from Allah that It is "not fabricated".
Other than Al-Quraan,----- Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Al-Muslim, Musnavi-e-Roomi, etc, are all, for sure, fabricated. It's a serious matter. It is a matter of Tauheed and shirk. It is a matter of Paradise or Hell. And because of the seriousness of this matter, Allah confirmed for His humble slaves that His Quraan is "not a fabricated" book, they must believe in It. Other than The Quraan, Allah didn't confirm any other book as "not fabricated." Then how can Allah's momin say that Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Al-Muslim are not fabricated, because Allah didn't Certify them.

Couldn't the Messenger write his own explanations of Quran with his own hand?---Yes, he could.-------But the Messenger never wrote his own explanations of Al-Quran with his own hand, and even never ordered his righteous and rightly guided Sahaba to pen down his extra-Quranic sayings.

What is Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Al-Muslim and Sihah Sitta?-----The big-ones (Religious Scholars) of the Ummah say these are the Hadith of the Messenger.---Don't they know that in The Sight of Allah these fabricated books are not at all the Hadith of the Messenger?---If only the ummah had read Allah's Quran, they would have known that in The Sight of Allah, Al-Quran is the Hadith of the Messenger.

---"This (Quran) is the Hadith (Qol) of a Noble Messenger." (Al-Haqqaa-40)---

Allah has declared that The Hadith of His Exalted Messenger is Al-Quraan.--That's it.--Allah has put an end to all disputes with His Verse.---But still, if someone disputes and declares that Bukhari and Muslim are the hadith of the Messenger, because the "misled big-ones" of the ummah declare so, then he is disputing with Allah's Clear and Easy-to-understand Verse. He is an enemy of Allah and His Messenger.

---"This (Quran) is the Hadith (Qol) of a Noble Messenger." (Al-Haqqaa-40)---

Yes, only Al-Quran alone, and not at all Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Al-Muslim.--So sad, the whole ummah is fighting against Allah and His Messenger, because they don't have Imaan in what Allah declares in His Quran---"This (Quran) is the Hadith (Qol) of a Noble Messenger." (Al-Haqqaa-40)---and the Messenger said in, what is his Hadith------"This (Quran) is the Hadith (Qol) of a Noble Messenger." (Al-Haqqaa-40)---

So, when Allah and His Exalted Messenger are declaring that Al-Quran is the Hadith of the Messenger, then why the "misled big-ones" of the ummah demand to accept Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Al-Muslim as the hadith of the Messenger??? -----Do they want others to do open Kufr of Allah and His Messenger?-----Do the big-ones want others to stand against Allah and His Messenger? If they have taken their big-ones (Imam Bukhari, Imam Muslim) as their rubbs, why they invite others to commit the same Shirk?---Do they not fear Allah?--Oh, no!---Do they not use their intellect?--No, not at all!

Contemplate, when Allah has already declared that---"This (Quran) is the Hadith (Qol) of a Noble Messenger." (Al-Haqqaa-40)---then how can Allah's momin go against Allah's Clear Declaration by having Imaan that Bukhari and Muslim are the hadith of the Messenger? How can he become a Kafir of Allah, by accepting Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Al-Muslim the hadith of the Messenger??? When Allah never mentioned the name of Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Al-Muslim in His Safe, Holy and Supreme Quran, then how can a truthful slave of Allah, without any proof, accept them as anything of any importance?

Why do some people always call people to follow the Unauthorized books of ahadith?

Contemplate!

[antibhondo]

rahenijaat1

1. Before we judge the authority of the Imams & Hadith Collectors, will you please first resolve the question
   Is this Quran AUTHORIZED???

Is this Quran really from Allah?
[I had a talk with Brother Layth regarding this matter. Please have a look on the following conversation (along with some other comments before and after this)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602072.msg273215#msg273215

2. Probably you missed this point

By the way, do you have any idea at which point of history Bukhari collected hadith? And do you have any idea at which point of time the Madhabs formed?

I request you to go through a careful study on the formation of the Madhabs and collection of Ahadiths.

I bet, some interesting points are awaiting your kind attention, there, my friend!

[rahenijaat1]

antibhondo-----and all!

Salam and Peace, respected brothers/sisters!

Quran and Sehar

Certainly, it can be proved from Allah's Quran, that right from the beginning there has been a tussle between
the followers of The Wahee (that the Messengers brought and gave to their people)---
and-----those who always insist to follow non-Wahee things as Deen (claiming that it is from Allah (Kashaf, Alqua, Ilham, hidden Wahee).

Allah is The Truth.
Allah speaks The Truth.
Allah sent His Truth to the most truthful person in Makkah.
Those who accepted The Truth truly, from the core of their hearts, were truthful.
And those who rejected to accept, were liars.
The liars of Makkah, always demanded to bring another quran, or make changes in It, according to their dirty desires.
And the liars until Al-Qiyamah, will have the same demand (desire) to have something in the name of the Explanation of The Quran,-----and they will always be ready to accept These man-made Explanations of Al-Quran,-----but they will never be willing from the core of their hearts, to accept Al-Quran directly.
They will accept the man-made Explanations of Al-Quran (from their favorite awliyah (i.e. alim), but not Al-Quran.

-----"And when Our Revelations are recited to them as Clear Evidence, those who hope not for their meeting with Us, say ?Bring a quran other than this (Quran), or change it.?
Say (O Messenger) ?It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I follow not but that which is revealed unto me. Indeed, I fear, if I were to disobey my Lord, the punishment of a Great Day.? (Younus-15)

Allah's Quran is The Only Truth in the universe.
It is in Al-Quran that in all times, whenever a Messenger of Allah came to his people and invited them to Allah's Wahee,-----those people rejected to accept, saying It was Sehar (Sorcery).
The word "Sehar" was used by the liars in oppostion to "The Wahee".
In fact, those liars themselves were followers of Sehar.
It clearly means, that anything, in the name of Deen, which is out of Allah's Quran, is nothing but Sorcery (Sehar).

Authorization from Allah

-----"Say (O Messenger) "Do you have any (Revealed) Knowledge that you can produce before us (in favour of what you claim)? You follow not except conjecture, and you do nothing except guessing." Say "Then for Allah is The Conclusive Argument (i.e. The Verses from Al-Quran)." (Al-Nisaa-148,149)

So, whatever we claim to be Deen, we must be able to prove it from The Knowledge (Allah's Quran only), and not from any other sources. And if, the claim can not be proved on Al-Quran, then it can never be accepted by Allah's momin as Deen. Because Allah does not Authorize it in His Holy Quran. And anything that can not be proved on Allah's Holy Quran, is nothing but Conjecture, Lie and Sehar.

-----"They are not but (mere) names which you have named, you and your forefathers, Allah has sent down no Authority for that. They follow not except a guess and that which (they) themselves desire. Although, surely there has come to them Guidance from their Lord." (Al-Najam-23)

Contemplate in this piece of the above Verse-----Although, surely there has come to them Guidance (Al-Quran) from their Lord." (Al-Najam-23)-----still they put their Iman in things which can not be proved on The Book of Guidance which has come to them from their Lord.

Now consider a case.
A non-muslim reads Al-Quran, and accepts Islam. But he declares that he will accept only things mentioned in Allah's Quran as "Compulsory to accept". And he will never accept things as "Compulsory to accept" which are not mentioned in Allah's Quran.

He says Hasbuna Allah (Allah is enough for me), means Hasbuna Kitab Allah (Allah's Quran is enough for me).

Now, he says that in Al-Quran, the rightly guided companions of the Messenger are mentioned, but their names are not mentioned.-----He says that he will have Iman that the Messenge had companions and those companions were rightly guided and forgiven and blessed. But he will not accept the names, Abu Bakar, Umar, Usman, Ali, Aub Huraira, etc, etc. as the names of the companions of the Messenger, because these names are not mentioned in Allah's Quran. He says that these names are in the man-made books of history.-----And Allah never commanded to have Iman in man-made books of history.

Further, he says that he will not have his Iman in the names Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Husaain, as the members of the Messenger's Family, only because these names, as the members of the Messenger's Family, are not mentioned in Allah's Quran.----He will only accept that the Messenger had a family, because it is in Al-Quran that the Messenger had a family. The names Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain, are mentioned in man-made books of history.-----And Allah never commanded to have Iman in man-made books of history.

He says that he will not have Iman in it, that Sihah Sittah is "Hidden Wahee", because Allah never declared in His Quran that these books are "Hidden Wahee".

Further, he says that he will not have Iman in it, that the zani should be stoned to death, because in Allah's Quran, Allah commanded to flog the zani 100 times.

He says, he will not kill a person who has committed blasphemy against the Messenger, because Allah never commanded to kill a blasphemer. Allah adviced His Exalted Messenger to show patience at this incident.

He says he will not kill an apostate, because Allah didn't command us to kill a person who turns away from Islam and commits apostasy.

He says that he will not have Iman that a person named Mahdi will come, because the name Mahdi is not in Allah's Quran.

He says that he will not have Iman in it, that Jesus is alive and will return to this world again and help this corrupt ummah become super power of the earth, because all this is not in Allah's Quran.

He says he will not have Iman in "the hadith of Shafa'ut from the Messengar" on The Judgement Day, which is in Sahih Al-Bukhari,-----because Allah didn't Authorize the Messenger as Shafee (Intercessor) for his ummah in His Exalted Quran. No where in His Safe, Holy and Supreme Quran, Allah calls His Messenger the "Shafee" (Intercessor) for his ummah.

Finally, he declares, he will not have Iman in Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Al-Muslim, etc. as The Second Source of Islam, because nowhere in Al-Quran, Allah commands us to have Iman in these man-made books of ahadith.

=====================================

------------Tell brother, antibhondo, and everyone------is this new musilm,-----a kafir, or a mushrik, or misguided,-----because he says Hasbuna Allah (Allah is enough for me), means Hasbuna Kitab Allah (Allah's Quran is enough for me).

Remember,-----and never forget,-----even if you wish to forget,-----that not me,-------but our Allah is demanding from us to produce proof from any Revealed Knowledge, in favour of what we say and do, as Deen.-----And if the proof from A Revealed Knowledge (Al-Quran only) is not produced-----then The Final and Conclusive Argument is from Allah

-----"Say (O Messenger) "Do you have any (Revealed) Knowledge that you can produce before us (in favour of what you claim)? You follow not except conjecture, and you do nothing except guessing." Say "Then for Allah is The Conclusive Argument (i.e. The Verses from Al-Quran)." (Al-Nisaa-148,149)

Prove your claim on Al-Quran

Sihah Sittah says---"Stone the zani to death"-----
Prove it from The Quran.-----Where in Al-Quran, Allah commands to stone the zani to death?
The Messenger was not allowed to change or extend Allah's Commandments.

-----Say (O Messenger) ?It is not for me to change it on my own accord. I follow not but that which is revealed unto me. Indeed, I fear, if I were to disobey my Lord, the punishment of a Great Day.? (Younus-15)

It is clear like daylight, that the Messenger was not allowed to change (Add or Subtract) Allah's Commandments. But Imam Bukhari claims that the Messenger changed (added or subtracted) Allah's Commandments. He related this lie to the Messenger. Is it not a blasphemy?

Bukhari-followers say that these are, in fact, explanations of Al-Quran.

Well, well,-----what kind of explanations?---The Commandments in Al-Quran, when explained, are changed or extended, or new commandments are issued!----
e.g.---New commandments, not found in Allah's Quran, are-------Kill the blasphemer. Kill the apostate.-----etc.

May Allah guide all of us to The Right Path (Al-Quran)!

-----"Indeed, This (Quran) is a Reminder. So whoever wills, let him take The Way to his Lord." (Al-Dahr-29)

Allah declares, This Quran is The Way to The Lord.-----And The Way to The Lord---is The Right Path.

-----"And you cannot will except that Allah wills. Indeed, Allah is All knowing, All Wise." (Al-Dahr-30)

Whatever you will (desire), will never be met.-------Indeed, what Allah Wills, will be implemented.
And Allah Wills that This Quran is The Way to The Lord