Hijab: private, apparent & 7 conditions
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But to some extent, in my personal experience, headscarf does give you that sense of protection and modesty, and it is much easier to "bond" with other Sisters. Maybe it's just the environment where I live in anyway, I don't know about you and where you live.
I live in Egypt where about 99% of women wear some form of hijab. Sexual harassment is a social disease here, even women with niqab get harassed. Yet, as a foreigner, wearing a hijab does decrease it a bit, mostly because people assume that if a Western woman wears it, she is not just wearing it out of tradition or social custom, but because she is a Muslim and has made a conscious decision to do so. Yes, people are friendlier to you and you get some of that "bonding", but, frankly, I can do without this because I find it highly superficial. Many of the people who are overly friendly to me when I'm wearing a headscarf are the same ones who might give me disapproving looks when they see me without.
Also, I am tired of people wearing their religion like a badge, and I have no desire to bond with anyone based on their religious affiliation. But that's just me ? never been and never had the desire to officially belong to any particular group. P
I know German Muslims who wear hijab, and they like the fact that other Muslims can recognize them, but they also report being significantly more harassed by young Arab males.
hmm -
I live in Egypt where about 99% of women wear some form of hijab. Sexual harassment is a social disease here, even women with niqab get harassed. Yet, as a foreigner, wearing a hijab does decrease it a bit, mostly because people assume that if a Western woman wears it, she is not just wearing it out of tradition or social custom, but because she is a Muslim and has made a conscious decision to do so. Yes, people are friendlier to you and you get some of that "bonding", but, frankly, I can do without this because I find it highly superficial. Many of the people who are overly friendly to me when I'm wearing a headscarf are the same ones who might give me disapproving looks when they see me without.
Also, I am tired of people wearing their religion like a badge, and I have no desire to bond with anyone based on their religious affiliation. But that's just me ? never been and never had the desire to officially belong to any particular group. P
Agree with you Leyna. Same stuff/different levels in Pakistan as well.
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I live in Egypt where about 99% of women wear some form of hijab. Sexual harassment is a social disease here, even women with niqab get harassed. Yet, as a foreigner, wearing a hijab does decrease it a bit, mostly because people assume that if a Western woman wears it, she is not just wearing it out of tradition or social custom, but because she is a Muslim and has made a conscious decision to do so. Yes, people are friendlier to you and you get some of that "bonding", but, frankly, I can do without this because I find it highly superficial. Many of the people who are overly friendly to me when I'm wearing a headscarf are the same ones who might give me disapproving looks when they see me without.
Also, I am tired of people wearing their religion like a badge, and I have no desire to bond with anyone based on their religious affiliation. But that's just me ? never been and never had the desire to officially belong to any particular group. P
I know German Muslims who wear hijab, and they like the fact that other Muslims can recognize them, but they also report being significantly more harassed by young Arab males.
hmmGreat post, especially the bolded.
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sigh
Likewise.
I have clearly stated that I believe the woman in that particular text has been brainwashed, and I stand by what I said.
Uha, and you're either being rather dim or simply disingenuous if you don't see that many women hold the same attitude of the woman of that text. So you are in fact suggesting that many women who wear hijab are brainwashed. If you stand by what you've said then I've understood your claims correctly.
A person who believes that God really requires women to cover every inch of their bodies including their eyes, IS brainwashed in my opinion.
Which IS bullshit. Like I said to bro huruf, using the 'brainwashing' card to ridicule women who hold a different position to you is stupid. It doesn't work because they can throw the same accusation back at you, and neither of you can claim to have the stronger claim. So if you're here to simply make unsubstantiated claims, then do us a favour and do it in a less verbose manner. Wrapping bs with eloquent rhetoric is tiring.
Likewise, I believe that the majority of people who follow the Salafi cult are brainwashed. You find that intolerant? Fine with me.
peaceNo, I find that stupid. Clearly you're fine with that, but I kinda take exception when people like to spout stupidity in public. By all means, do it in private, but have some courtesy and refrain from inflicting it on others.
My ridicule and criticism is aimed at a particular sort of women and particularly at a particular type of pro-hijab literature. Anyone wants to misunderstand this, fine. I can't make it any clearer and don't intend to.
No, don't worry, you've made yourself perfectly clear. Mocking a rather touching poem by extensive emoticons hasn't been misunderstood by me.
You're problem is that you're a hypocrite. On the one hand you object to what you see as patronising literature towards western women, yet with the other you call certain people who wear hijab brainwashed. I suppose patronising these hijabis is acceptable, fight fire with fire, eh?
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I live in Egypt where about 99% of women wear some form of hijab. Sexual harassment is a social disease here, even women with niqab get harassed. Yet, as a foreigner, wearing a hijab does decrease it a bit, mostly because people assume that if a Western woman wears it, she is not just wearing it out of tradition or social custom, but because she is a Muslim and has made a conscious decision to do so. Yes, people are friendlier to you and you get some of that "bonding", but, frankly, I can do without this because I find it highly superficial. Many of the people who are overly friendly to me when I'm wearing a headscarf are the same ones who might give me disapproving looks when they see me without.
Hence why I said I could not use my experience to represent yours, because obviously your environment is different to mine. In my case, most of the time, there is less attention when the headscarf is worn. I may perceive your attitude incorrectly anyway, because it seems you are projecting your own experience and environment on to others. Just because the women get harassed nonetheless in Egypt, it does not mean it will be the same everywhere.
I am not saying anything about wearing a certain style of clothing for the sake of religious identity. I am all about unity regardless of one's backgrounds. It is more about them wearing what they believe to be the right thing. People believe that headscarf embodies modesty, and not necessarily about showing OMG-LOOK-AT-ME-I'M-A-MUSLIM. Islam tells us to be modest, and that is what they believe what modesty is, which gives them the inner peace by practicing it. So be it.
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Like I said to bro huruf, using the 'brainwashing' card to ridicule women who hold a different position to you is stupid. It doesn't work because they can throw the same accusation back at you, and neither of you can claim to have the stronger claim. So if you're here to simply make unsubstantiated claims, then do us a favour and do it in a less verbose manner.
I concur.
Anyway, even if they are "brainwashed", it is not their crime to be so. The intention of those women who wear the headscarf is ultimately to practice their vision of Islam, as difficult as it is. As long as they practice it peacefully and without harm to anyone else, there is no problem with that IMHO.
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So if you're here to simply make unsubstantiated claims, then do us a favour and do it in a less verbose manner.
By all means, do it in private, but have some courtesy and refrain from inflicting it on others.
With all respect, I will continue to say what I want to say and in the manner I deem appropriate.
For years, this sort of propaganda has been directed at us, and for a long time women, including myself, have tried to ignore it and not speak up against the continuous attempts at making us feel guilty if we don't want to cover our heads, and at the increasing dominance of the subject in any discussion regarding Muslim women. Doing so, we have been told, means we are not being sisterly, we are being unsupportive of women who fight for their right to wear hijab and so on.
Texts like the above are BS, full of silly stereotypes, patronizing rhetorics and anti-Western propaganda. And the ideology behind the niqab is sick. For a long time we've been bullied into not speaking up against this nonsense while those texts keep popping up everywhere.
I've become immune to the bullying, so if anyone on here wants to continue misunderstanding or attacking me, that is their problem, and I won't reply to it.
The women from the site those texts are taken from are anything but sisterly, btw. As soon as you dare having your own opinion, i.e. in regards to hijab, the saccharine sweetness makes place for a lot of bitter venom. You will get attacked, being accused of being arrogant, not pious enough, rejecting the truth and so on. There is no room for discussion, exchange of thoughts, having your own opinion is a big no-no. Either you follow the view of the scholars, in this case the Salafi scholars, or you're pretty much an unbeliever.
There is a poll on the forum to find out who covers and how much. Members have various choices. There is no neutral choice such as "I don't cover"; the only option a non-hijabi can chose is "Hijab? No thanks, give me Barbie any time!"
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Not understanding the disproportionate response Mushu. What did Leyna say that was so stupid?
She said "A person who believes that God really requires women to cover every inch of their bodies including their eyes, IS brainwashed in my opinion."
And you responded with
Which IS bullshit. Like I said to bro huruf, using the 'brainwashing' card to ridicule women who hold a different position to you is stupid.
Leyna isn't using the brainwashing card solely because these women are holding a different position. She's merely stating that anyone who believes that God requires (<--absolutely critical phrase) you to cover your entire body is brainwashed. And can any of us here really disagree? We all believe in the qur'an here. Clearly nowhere in the qur'an does it say that God requires such a thing. So, for someone to believe that is the case, well...some level of brainwashing has to be at play here, does it not? Again, what is so "stupid" about what she said?
Keep seeing this "voluntary" business being tossed around in this thread. What exactly is "voluntary"? If a woman is told that she is a bad person if she doesn't wear hijab, does her decision to do so really fall under the "voluntary" category? In one sense, sure. She doesn't have a gun to her head, after all. But, in another very real sense, her decision is involuntary insofar as she is acting on incomplete information. The information our hypothetical woman is being fed is that "God requires" such and such, when that is clearly not true. God absolutely requires no such thing, full stop. The gap between her 'voluntary' decision and the incomplete information she is using to make said decision, is the space in which brainwashing finds itself.
Anyway, even if they are "brainwashed", it is not their crime to be so.
I take issue with this. Brainwashing is very much a crime. It is not just relegated to one individual. It feeds upon itself, it festers, and spreads. On one level, a woman is just choosing to believe however she believes, but on another, she is acting as a conduit through which these falsehoods are spreading themselves.
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Leyna you are bold, intelligent, lecturer, modern and what else? any thing; but not a good Muslim, that is what I feel according to Quran about you, put Quran aside you may get high marks for your thoughts.
"that is what I feel according to Quran about you" ? Clever attempt at playing God. You're just an awful poster. That's what I feel, according to me.
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Likewise.
Uha, and you're either being rather dim or simply disingenuous if you don't see that many women hold the same attitude of the woman of that text. So you are in fact suggesting that many women who wear hijab are brainwashed.
Peace bro Mushu,
I'd be very careful, and absolutely sure of my opinion, before throwing words like 'hypocrite' around.
What if this was the truth? I believe CD made some excellent observations above as to why it might very well be.
Which IS bullshit. Like I said to bro huruf, using the 'brainwashing' card to ridicule women who hold a different position to you is stupid. It doesn't work because they can throw the same accusation back at you, and neither of you can claim to have the stronger claim. So if you're here to simply make unsubstantiated claims, then do us a favour and do it in a less verbose manner. Wrapping bs with eloquent rhetoric is tiring.
Simply throwing around 'brainwashing' ON ITS OWN is meaningless, sure; I agree with that. But, Leyna elucidated her view as to why she feels they're brainwashed. And I think she has a very valid point.
... but I kinda take exception when people like to spout stupidity in public. By all means, do it in private, but have some courtesy and refrain from inflicting it on others.
Isn't that what Leyna is doing? "Taking exception to people who spout stupidity in public" ? Isn't that what you feel you are doing by replying in such a manner to Leyna taking exception to people who spout stupidity in public... Is that also fighting fire with fire?
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caveman-Doctor
"that is what I feel according to Quran about you" ? Clever attempt at playing God. You're just an awful poster. That's what I feel, according to me.
You are free to think about me whatever you like, but when you try to defend some one you should do it with some evidence.
Since you take great care about Leyna, it seems from your reply to Mushu and then me, why not answer the question I asked her
What dress should a women wear according to Quran?
let her answer this and I am sure you will need not defend her, against what I said about her.
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caveman-Doctor
You are free to think about me whatever you like, but when you try to defend some one you should do it with some evidence.Since you take great care about Leyna, it seems from your reply to Mushu and then me, why not answer the question I asked her
What dress should a women wear according to Quran?
let her answer this and I am sure you will need not defend her, against what I said about her.
It's not about defending Leyna. Read a little more critically, and you'll see that there is a larger picture at stake here.
Appreciate the permission to think about you however I like nonetheless.
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Jack and Caveman Doctor
If some one does not agree with thoughts of Leyna he is awful poster, another one should take care while calling her hypocrite or so, but when she insults some one its just fine, when she hurts the feelings of million women wearing Hijab as brain washed that is modern enlightenment.
This is just an awful hypocritical stand.
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Jack and Caveman Doctor
If some one does not agree with thoughts of Leyna he is awful poster, another one should take care while calling her hypocrite or so, but when she insults some one its just fine, when she hurts the feelings of million women wearing Hijab as brain washed that is modern enlightenment.
This is just an awful hypocritical stand.
No no you misunderstand. I've known you to be an awful poster for quite some time now.
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Leyna you are bold, intelligent, lecturer, modern and what else? any thing; but not a good Muslim, that is what I feel according to Quran about you, put Quran aside you may get high marks for your thoughts.
What? Wow, that was inappropriate and rude.
I agree with Leyna completely. I read her entire post, and I don't believe that what that sister is saying is entirely true. I believe that what she typed represents what she fantasizes the niqab and khimar represent. I completely understand the desire for someone to want to be associated with Islam, and on the other hand, I completely understand the desire not to be. I'm sure there are women who feel a bit like this woman does about wearing the hijab, but in my opinion, this sisters views of being a queen led by servants, etc, are cooked up out of a need to justify the fact that she believes "Allah strongly recommends the hijab." That is a terrible statement to make to any muslimah!! That's not even being frank and saying it is required, but instead it uses guilt to convince a woman to cover herself up as much as possible. That is from shaytan. I don't know the intended audience of the article, but even if she believes the contents fully, she has unwittingly become part of the problem by spreading fairy tales.
Women and men have freedom in the way they dress, as given by Allah. If they desire the niqab or khimar, then by all means! But don't concoct flowery nonsense about how you are superior by wearing it.
As a side note, sexual harassment seems prevalent against those wearing hijab in countries where hijab is common. So it doesn't seem to hold the magical effects scholars attribute to them. The politeness some muslimahs experience in western countries when they interract with non-muslims is due to the westerners assumption that the woman is religious and modest...and assumption apparently not made in muslim countries.
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Caveman Doctor
No no you misunderstand. I've known you to be an awful poster for quite some time now.
Your posts are of so high quality often, that many misunderstand (take this as compliment).
Now if you can answer what I asked? if not then I know your time is so important.
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Peace all,
For years, this sort of propaganda has been directed at us,
Which means you have a right to return fire? You have an odd concept of feminism - they patronise you so you patronise them. How exactly does this empower women?
Texts like the above are BS, full of silly stereotypes, patronizing rhetorics and anti-Western propaganda. And the ideology behind the niqab is sick. For a long time we've been bullied into not speaking up against this nonsense while those texts keep popping up everywhere.
I've become immune to the bullying, so if anyone on here wants to continue misunderstanding or attacking me, that is their problem, and I won't reply to it.
You keep banging on about being misunderstood. You have not been misunderstood, you've made yourself perfectly clear you are a hypocrite. You are patronising certain women, simply because they patronise you, which was the basis of you speaking out in the first place.
I haven't got a problem with you speaking out, I have a problem with your hypocrisy. You still stand by your mocking and patronising of many hijabis by suggesting they are brainwashed. Aside from the fallacious nature of such an argument, you can't even substantiate it in any way. What does it achieve, other than making you feel better?
Not understanding the disproportionate response Mushu. What did Leyna say that was so stupid?
She said "A person who believes that God really requires women to cover every inch of their bodies including their eyes, IS brainwashed in my opinion."
Leyna isn't using the brainwashing card solely because these women are holding a different position. She's merely stating that anyone who believes that God requires (<--absolutely critical phrase) you to cover your entire body is brainwashed.
Aside from the fact that you can't determine when someone is brainwashed?
What's stupid is that it serves no purpose to refer to someone as brainwashed they can throw the same claim back at you. What purpose does it serve? It's not an objective assertion, and it most certainly can't be supported empirically. It's a use of language to insult people.
What's also stupid is that the basis of her entire argument was that these hijabis in particular patronise non-hijabis (<-- absolutely critical point). So to then call these women 'brainwashed' is what, exactly? Respectful? Productive? Reasonable? No, it's patronising.
And can any of us here really disagree? We all believe in the qur'an here. Clearly nowhere in the qur'an does it say that God requires such a thing. So, for someone to believe that is the case, well...some level of brainwashing has to be at play here, does it not? Again, what is so "stupid" about what she said?
I do and can disagree. If their entire methodology revolves around extra-qur'anic sources, then their reasoning allows for things like hijab and niqab. They can reach this conclusion objectively, because their entire methodology is different. Of course, it's flawed, but that's irrelevant. Brainwashing suggests they've been coerced at a psychological level without their knowing. You can't prove this, so why claim it? It is patronising to call someone brainwashed. It also opens and closes the debate in one go, given that you can't actually respond to someone who says you're brainwashed.
The information our hypothetical woman is being fed is that "God requires" such and such, when that is clearly not true. God absolutely requires no such thing, full stop. The gap between her 'voluntary' decision and the incomplete information she is using to make said decision, is the space in which brainwashing finds itself.
Which is a battle each and every one of us fights every day of our lives. Misinformation leading to misunderstanding does not equate to brainwashing.
I take issue with this. Brainwashing is very much a crime. It is not just relegated to one individual. It feeds upon itself, it festers, and spreads. On one level, a woman is just choosing to believe however she believes, but on another, she is acting as a conduit through which these falsehoods are spreading themselves.
But you can't tell when someone is brainwashed into doing something. It's not as if you're making an empirical claim here. You do injustice to the entire debate by simply reducing the complexities of blind following, hierarchical religious structures and developmental psychology by using the 'brainwashing' card.
I used to have a beard (long sunni beard)and considered it obligatory. Now are you claiming I was brainwashed? I will object even now to anyone suggesting I was brainwashed into keeping a beard. My (flawed) methodology led me to believe it was necessary, and I chose that path because it seemed to be the best. I was wrong, but why does that then make me brainwashed? Now if you say 'Oh no Mushu, obviously you weren't brainwashed, I'm talking about the others', I would ask how you're objectively differentiating between such people?
My objection to Leyna's post is the double-standards she's displaying. You can't complain about the patronising rhetoric of pro-hijab literature if at the same time you patronise them by calling them brainwashed.
Peace bro Mushu,
I'd be very careful, and absolutely sure of my opinion, before throwing words like 'hypocrite' around.
I'm sure. Thanks.
What if this was the truth? I believe CD made some excellent observations above as to why it might very well be.
That these women are brainwashed? 'Might very well be' is not good enough. If you want to call me brainwashed, you better have some empirical evidence, or at least something I can objectively break down. If not, I'm gonna tell you to get lost. See why calling someone brainwashed is utterly pointless? It doesn't help the discussion and is patronising (the very thing Leyna was complaining about).
Simply throwing around 'brainwashing' ON ITS OWN is meaningless, sure; I agree with that. But, Leyna elucidated her view as to why she feels they're brainwashed. And I think she has a very valid point.
No, she hasn't. Here's her elucidation
BornAgain ? I don't feel she wears it voluntarily. It is clear from her story that she has been brainwashed into believing that the strictest form of hijab (i.e. covering everything including eyes) is what's being required. She herself describes how she used to think it's about modesty and being appropriately dressed according to time and situation, but all those righteous sisters she met in Cairo led her to the straight path and showed her that this thinking is not in accordance with God's will.
I have clearly stated that I believe the woman in that particular text has been brainwashed, and I stand by what I said. A person who believes that God really requires women to cover every inch of their bodies including their eyes, IS brainwashed in my opinion. Likewise, I believe that the majority of people who follow the Salafi cult are brainwashed. You find that intolerant? Fine with me.
Isn't that what Leyna is doing? "Taking exception to people who spout stupidity in public" ? Isn't that what you feel you are doing by replying in such a manner to Leyna taking exception to people who spout stupidity in public... Is that also fighting fire with fire?
Point taken. My apologies, Leyna.
Unless people here are making an objective claim that these women are brainwashed, then you're guilty of using insulting language. I would take offence to anyone who suggested I was brainwashed, and so would all of you who are levelling this accusation at others.
Again, unless it hasn't been made clear already, you can not complain about being patronised when you dish out the same treatment to others.
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You keep banging on about being misunderstood. You have not been misunderstood, you've made yourself perfectly clear you are a hypocrite. You are patronising certain women, simply because they patronise you, which was the basis of you speaking out in the first place.
awesome!