WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL...
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Peace be upon you Priest Bokmei,
Yes, I have used this language before and it is incorrect usage, and exactly why Allah doesn't use it. Think about it, Allah cannot say ALL and then say except, because all means all, hence, to follow all with except, is to create a discrepancy/contradiction. This is why He didn't say
Verily, all of man is in loss, except...
So how do you explain the following phrase that is repeated throught this reading(quran)?
(2255) The God, no God except He...
The first instance we have "all" + the exception, this verse we have "none(no)" + exception. This is both ends of the spectrum. How do you reconcile this contradiction in your reasoning?
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PEACE IDOL
So how do you explain the following phrase that is repeated throught this reading(quran)? (2255) The God, no God except He... The first instance we have "all" + the exception, this verse we have "none(no)" + exception. This is both ends of the spectrum. How do you reconcile this contradiction in your reasoning?
Three things. 1. I checked out five translations and none of them use therm "except", now, this may be important or it may not. 2. I don't understand your example/why you feel there is a contradiction in my reasoning. Your example is not relevent to 234 or Sura 103; they are different things.
2.255 Allah is He besides Whom there is no god...
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Peace be upon you Priest,
"They ALL prostrated Except iblis"
"There is no god but(except) The God"
How can you disagree with one but not the other?
I leave you in peace
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PEACE IDOL
They ALL prostrated Except iblis"
"There is no god but(except) The God"
How can you disagree with one but not the other?
I'm sorry, Idol, but I cannot see how these two statements are alike.
Dhul's first post on this thread really explains things well; he covered all of the bases regarding this discussion.
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Iblis, cannot be a malaika, because what they are composed of is an unknown, however, Iblis, was created of fire. We cannot, therefore, extrapolate that the malaika were composed of fire as well; that would only be conjecturing and not knowledge.
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234 , is further clarified by 1649-50 and 1850.
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Peace be upon you Priest,
If that works for you, that is fine.
I leave you in Peace.
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PEACE IDOL
If that works for you, that is fine.
Given the evidence from Al-Quran...nothing else can work.
And peace to you too, Idol.
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Peace be upon you,
Iblis, cannot be a malaika, because what they are composed of is an unknown, however, Iblis, was created of fire. We cannot, therefore, extrapolate that the malaika were composed of fire as well; that would only be conjecturing and not knowledge.
I had to address this part I forgot. Who is it that needs to extrapolate what the malaika were made of anyway?
I will try one more time, what does the following statement say to you;
The teacher commanded the students to put there pencils down, they ALL did EXCEPT Paul, He was a trouble maker.
I am not asking you to tell me what the students are made of, I am asking you IS PAUL A STUDENT? D
Or,
If I asked you to put the pencils in the pencil case, and when I came back there was one still left out of the pencil case, couldn't you respond "they are all in the pencil case except one"?
Why can you not understand this simplest of grammar?
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PEACE IDOL
I had to address this part I forgot. Who is it that needs to extrapolate what the malaika were made of anyway? I will try one more time, what does the following statement say to you;
The teacher commanded the students to put there pencils down, they ALL did EXCEPT Paul, He was a trouble maker.
I am not asking you to tell me what the students are made of, I am asking you IS PAUL A STUDENT?
Idol, I know you are frustrated, however, and I could be wrong, but I don't think the above example is grammitically correct. As far as a I know...all means exactly that...ALL. It is contradictory, in my view, to say they all put the pencils down and then say..."oops, my bad, Paul didn't", because once you say that you admit that you made a mistake when you used the word ALL in the first place. This is why I asked you to post an ayat where Allah says "all" and the follows it up with..."except". Do you know of such an occurance in Al-Quran? Now, as I said, I could be wrong in my assumption here. Perhaps someone here is well schooled in English grammar.
Or,
If I asked you to put the pencils in the pencil case, and when I came back there was one still left out of the pencil case, couldn't you respond "they are all in the pencil case except one"?
Why can you not understand this simplest of grammar?
No, in order to be accurate, in my view, I would have to say..."no, they are not all in the case yet one is still out". This, to me, sounds much more accurate than the other way...do you agree?
Also, going back to the ayats themselves, you cannot disregard the information given by Allah that, Iblis was created of fire. This is an essential element, because, as I said to you in prior post, the composition of the Jinn, of which Iblis was one, is clealy defined in Al-Quran. However, the composition of the malaika is not known and it would be inappropriate to extrapolate/conjecture that they are created of fire too, because Iblis was.
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Peace be upon you Priest,
Idol, I know you are frustrated, however, and I could be wrong, but I don't think the above example is grammitically correct. As far as a I know...all means exactly that...ALL. It is contradictory, in my view, to say they all put the pencils down and then say..."oops, my bad, Paul didn't", because once you say that you admit that you made a mistake when you used the word ALL in the first place.
well there is one way we can easily solve this dilemma regarding the english language that we are speaking. Here is the website for
Merriam-Webster Dictionary
http//www.m-w.com/Please look up the word EXCEPT and you will see 4 entries. Here are some of the example sentences that you will find in those 4 entries;
- with the exception of <everyone was gone except for me>
-with the exclusion or exception of <daily except Sundays>
-transitive senses to take or leave out from a number or a whole
- with this exception , namely <was inaccessible except by boat>
Please take a look for yourself and see that my position is supported by english grammar.
This is why I asked you to post an ayat where Allah says "all" and the follows it up with..."except". Do you know of such an occurance in Al-Quran?
"They all did except Iblis"
"There is no god except The God"
I think you already have the verse numbers.
Now, as I said, I could be wrong in my assumption here. Perhaps someone here is well schooled in English grammar.
According to Merriam Webster Dictionary you are incorrect. Do you agree that you have made an error regarding this and that iblis was indeed a malaika, and that the God IS just and does not punish beings that He did not give commands to?
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PEACE IDOL
well there is one way we can easily solve this dilemma regarding the english language that we are speaking. Here is the website for According to Merriam Webster Dictionary you are incorrect. Do you agree that you have made an error regarding this and that iblis was indeed a malaika, and that the God IS just and does not punish beings that He did not give commands to?
No, I don't agree I've made an error regarding Iblis being of the malaika and yes, I was already familiar with the m-w definition for "except" and "all", however, you may have noticed that, in the examples provided, none used all before except, it is simply akward to do so. I'm sorry Idol, but you have not conclusively made your case for the following reasons
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None of the translations regarding Iblis and the angels, that I've found anyway, uses the term "all" in regard to the angels. What translation did you use which includes "all" in it? Please post it.
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Sura 103, does not use the term "all" and then "except" in any translation that I've seen. If you have one, then please post it.
But, even if "all" were used in those ayats it still wouldn't matter, because the following precludes Iblis, from being a malaika
- You cannot disregard the information given by Allah that, Iblis was created of fire. This is an essential element, because as I said to you in a prior post, the composition of the Jinn, of which Iblis was one, is clearly defined in Al-Quran. However, the composition of the malaika is not known and it would be inappropriate to extrapolate/conjecture that they are created of fire too, because Iblis was.
Main Entry EXTRAPOLATE to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area.
Main Entry CONJECTURE supposition inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork.
Can you effectively, by way of Al-Quran, refute item #3, yes or no?
Given these three conclusive items, there is no way Iblis was of the malaika. Besides, Iblis, was human being.
Looking forward to your reply and conclusive evidence.
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Peace be upon you Priest,
Yes, I was already familiar with the m-w definition for except and all, however, you may have noticed that, in the examples provided, none used all before except, it is simply akward to do so.
The very first example that I gave, which was listed under the 4th listing for except, was the following;
- with the exception of <everyone was gone except for me>
What does EVERYONE mean to you, if not ALL?
i'm sorry Idol, but you have not conclusively made you case for the following reasons
- None of the translations regarding Iblis and the angels that I've found, uses the term "all" in regard to the angels. What translation did you use which includes "all" in it? Please post it.
Even better, now there is no reason for you to be adverse to the word EXCEPT. The "all" is implied.
- Sura 103, does not use the term "all" and then "except" in any translation that I've seen. If you have one, then please post it.
"All" is implied when you get an exception, do you disagree to that?
But, even if "all" were used in those ayst, the following precludes Iblis, from being a malaika
- You cannot disregard the information given by Allah that, Iblis was created of fire. This is an essential element, because as I said to you in a prior post, the composition of the Jinn, of which Iblis was one, is clealy defined in Al-Quran. However, the composition of the malaika is not known and it would be inappropriate to extrapolate/conjecture that they are created of fire too, because Iblis was.
If Kenny is in the class, and the class is made up of African American children, then Kenny is African American. Simple mathematics. I have not even discussed anything about the makeup of any being. That doesn't even factor into this conversation. You keep using this to escape the clear verse that iblis was a malaika.
Given these three conclusive items, there is no way Iblis was of the malaika. Besides, Iblis, was human being.
Iblis can be any human being, it is a descriptive word, just like "muhammadun" can be any person.
I'm sorry you cannot see this. I leave you in peace unless you have more to add to your position.
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Peace be upon you Someone,
Thanks.
Priest, do you see how this type of speech is used by the God? How do you understand the above verse given by Someone?
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PEACE IDOL AND SOMEONE
What does EVERYONE mean to you, if not ALL?
Main Entry EVERY being each individual or part of a group without exception
If Kenny is in the class, and the class is made up of African American children, then Kenny is African American. Simple mathematics.
O.K. so what is the "exception" in your example?
2888 And do not call besides the god any god, there is no god but He. Everything will fade away except His presence. To Him is the judgment, and to Him you will be returned.
Allah, says that He is Incomparable/there is nothing like unto Him, hence, He cannot be a "thing", hence, yes, everything will perish. Allah, was here before "things" and will be after "things" pass away
436 And serve Allah and do not associate any thing with Him...
I have not even discussed anything about the makeup of any being. That doesn't even factor into this conversation. You keep using this to escape the clear verse that iblis was a malaika.
Of course it factors into this conversation...what are you talking about?! How are you going to throw away facts which Allah, has entered into His perfect Quran?! It is precisely the fact that we know the composition of Iblis, along with the fact the debbatan and malaika obey Allah's commands without exception, that is, they cannot make a self-conscious moral choice, which excludes Iblis as being one of the malaika.
You have no Quranic facts to back up your assertions, none...accept this, otherwise, what is the point of study and debate, if you cannot accept correction, intergrate it, and then move on?
Peace
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Peace be upon you Priest,
There is no god but(except) the God.
How do you sleep at night?
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PEACE IDOL
Peace be upon you Priest,
There is no god but(except) the God.
How do you sleep at night?
Show me how your above example is equivalent to the Iblis and the malaika.
Why do you continue to ignore this direct evidence
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It is precisely the fact that we know the composition of Iblis, along with the fact the debbatan and malaika obey Allah's commands without exception, that is, they cannot make a self-conscious moral choice, which excludes Iblis as being one of the malaika.
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In ayat 1850, Iblis, is directly stated by Allah as being of/from the Jinn.
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Another piece of evidence you are not taking into account is, in 234 Iblis is defined as being proud/arrogant, however, in 1649, the malaika are defined as not being proud/arrogant.
With this amount of direct evidence, it is a puzzlement to me why you and some of the others, wish to make a case for Iblis being "mina" malaika, based on incomplete information/an allusion at 234.
Btw, I sleep very peacefully, all praises due to Allah. How do you sleep, given that, you cannot refute my above evidence?
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Peace be upon you Priest,
Show me how your above example is equivalent to the Iblis and the malaika.
I guess I can't
Why do you continue to ignore this direct evidence
- It is precisely the fact that we know the composition of Iblis, along with the fact the debbatan and malaika obey Allah's commands without exception, that is, they cannot make a self-conscious moral choice, which excludes Iblis as being one of the malaika.
How can you say that because they CHOOSE to obey, that they are FORCED to obey? They all CHOOSE to obey EXCEPT iblis.
- In ayat 1850, Iblis, is directly stated by Allah as being of/from the Jinn.
Sure, the concept of iblis is a state of being, it is not a literal figure with a horns and tail. It is the description of the inner "mind" of a person and is COVERED(jinn) by the vehicle of the human body.
- Another piece of evidence you are not taking into account is, in 234 Iblis is defined as being proud/arrogant, however, in 1649, the malaika are defined as not being proud/arrogant.
Yes, arrogance leads us to have rejecting thoughts(shaytaan the rejected)
If we sumbit, our thoughts will be controlled (malaika m-l-k)With this amount of direct evidence, it is a puzzlement to me why you and some of the others, wish to make a case for Iblis being "mina" malaika, based on incomplete information/an allusion at 234.
As you see, that evidence does not hold up.
Btw, I sleep very peacefully, all praises due to Allah. How do you sleep, given that, you cannot refute my above evidence?
I apologize for my first comment, I had lost CONTROL of my thoughts and allowed my emotions to speak out of line. Regarding your evidence, please address my responses.
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PEACE IDOL
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Why do you continue to ignore this direct evidence- It is precisely the fact that we know the composition of Iblis, along with the fact the debbatan and malaika obey Allah's commands without exception, that is, they cannot make a self-conscious moral choice, which excludes Iblis as being one of the malaika.
How can you say that because they CHOOSE to obey, that they are FORCED to obey? They all CHOOSE to obey EXCEPT iblis.
1649 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.
1649Walillahi yasjudu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi min dabbatin wa almala-ikatu wahum la yastakbiroona
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
1650 Yakhafoona rabbahum min fawqihim wayafAAaloona ma yu/maroona
Do the dabbatan also CHOOSE to obey or, are they by their instinct/natures, compelled to obey? You will notice that the malaika and dabbatan, are categorized together. Let me ask you this, do you really believe a zebra has the choice whether or not to obey Allah? Is this your position?
Sure, the concept of iblis is a state of being, it is not a literal figure with a horns and tail. It is the description of the inner "mind" of a person and is COVERED(jinn) by the vehicle of the human body.
Whose talking about him having horns and a tail or the maliaka having harps and halos?! I agree that, Iblis was human being, however, the malaika are another class of beings--"if the earth were populated by angels, Allah would have sent an angel as a messenger".
Yes, arrogance leads us to have rejecting thoughts(shaytaan the rejected) If we sumbit, our thoughts will be controlled (malaika m-l-k)
Now, you are extrapolating/conjecturing again. The ayat says nothing about the dabbatan or the maliaka having arrogance in the first place so how can something they don't have, arrogance, lead them anywhere? In that, the dabbatan and malaika by nature have no arrogance, is why they cannot behave arrogantly.
If we submit, we become Muslims, what are you talking about?
2131 When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.
2131 Ith qala lahu rabbuhu aslim qala aslamtu lirabbi alAAalameena
As you see, that evidence does not hold up.
On the contrary...it's holding up just fine. wink
Looking forward to your response.
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Peace be upon you Priest,
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How can you say that because they CHOOSE to obey, that they are FORCED to obey? They all CHOOSE to obey EXCEPT iblis.1649 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.
1649Walillahi yasjudu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi min dabbatin wa almala-ikatu wahum la yastakbiroona
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
1650 Yakhafoona rabbahum min fawqihim wayafAAaloona ma yu/maroona
Do the dabbatan also CHOOSE to obey or, are they by their instinct/natures, compelled to obey? You will notice that the malaika and dabbatan, are categorized together. Let me ask you this, do you really believe a zebra has the choice whether or not to obey Allah? Is this your position?
Yes, aren't you also from the "dabbatan"? Certainly if the skies and earth can CHOOSE, so can a zebra
(3372) We displayed/presented the trust on the skies and the Earth, and the mountains , so they refused/hated that (E) they bear/endure it , and they were cautious/afraid from it, and the human/mankind bore/endured it , that he truly was/is often unjust and oppressive, lowly/ignorant .
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Sure, the concept of iblis is a state of being, it is not a literal figure with a horns and tail. It is the description of the inner "mind" of a person and is COVERED(jinn) by the vehicle of the human body.Whose talking about him having horns and a tail or the maliaka having harps and halos?! I agree that, Iblis was human being, however, the malaika are another class of beings--"if the earth were populated by angels, Allah would have sent an angel as a messenger".
WHat is an "angel"? You should start properly translating the word "malaika" and then this will make more sense to you. The earth is the physical realm, malaika are in a higher realm, the realm of thought, that is why they are the controllers(malaika). The God is telling us that since we are at this level, He has sent the message to our level, that of the physical being.
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Yes, arrogance leads us to have rejecting thoughts(shaytaan the rejected) If we sumbit, our thoughts will be controlled (malaika m-l-k)Now, you are extrapolating/conjecturing again. The ayat says nothing about the dabbatan or the maliaka having arrogance in the first place so how can something they don't have, arrogance, lead them anywhere? In that, the dabbatan and malaika by nature have no arrogance, is why they cannot behave arrogantly.
That is why we are informed about the maliaka that did not obey, he fell due to ARROGANCE. That is the point you are missing. That is what this is about. Can't you see this all around you in the world?
If we submit, we become Muslims, what are you talking about?
2131 When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.
2131 Ith qala lahu rabbuhu aslim qala aslamtu lirabbi alAAalameena
Yes, and in order to submit, you must change what is in your MIND(nafs). You have to control your thoughts, or someone else will REMOTE CONTROL them. D If you do not control your thoughts, then your emotions will ruin you. We should discipline our thoughts so we can remain in the state of peace. Become a gardner in the garden, and keep planting good seeds.
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PEACE IDOL
1649 And whatever creature that is in the heavens and that is in the earth makes obeisance to Allah (only), and the angels (too) and they do not show pride.
1649Walillahi yasjudu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi min dabbatin wa almala-ikatu wahum la yastakbiroona
1650 They fear their Lord above them and do what they are commanded.
1650 Yakhafoona rabbahum min fawqihim wayafAAaloona ma yu/maroona
PREIST BOMEI Do the dabbatan also CHOOSE to obey or, are they by their instincts/natures, compelled to obey? You will notice that the malaika and dabbatan, are categorized together. Let me ask you this, do you really believe a zebra has the choice whether or not to obey Allah? Is this your position?
Yes, aren't you also from the "dabbatan"? Certainly if the skies and earth can CHOOSE, so can a zebra
Yes and no. Yes, we are of the dabbatan, in that, we too are moving creatures, if the ayat is translated to mean moving creatures, however, humans show pride and we disobey. The dabbatan in the above ayats do neither, hence, no, we are not dabbatan.
When I use choose, you, apparently, misunderstand what Quran and I am stating. Certainly, dabbatan can choose to, for example, attack or not attack, eat or not eat , drink or not drink, however, they do not make MORAL choices and that is the key. If dabbatan could make moral choices, then, some of them must be evil. Are you saying that some of the dabbatan i.e. zebras, snails, lobsters, ameobas, cockroaches etc., are evil and or can choose to behave in an evil manner ? Is this really your position, Idol? If the dabbatan could make moral choices, then, Allah, would have had to have sent messengers to the dabbatan in order for them to correct their behavior as He did with humankind. Has Allah, mentioned any messengers being sent to the dabbatan or malaika...I can't seem to find any such ayat...perhaps you know of one?
(3372) We displayed/presented the trust on the skies and the Earth, and the mountains , so they refused/hated that (E) they bear/endure it , and they were cautious/afraid from it, and the human/mankind bore/endured it , that he truly was/is often unjust and oppressive, lowly/ignorant .
It is my understanding that, this is an analogy emphazing to man the great responsibility which is placed on him by Allah and that he would undoubtedly behave in an unjust manner.
WHat is an "angel"? You should start properly translating the word "malaika" and then this will make more sense to you. The earth is the physical realm, malaika are in a higher realm, the realm of thought, that is why they are the controllers(malaika). The God is telling us that since we are at this level, He has sent the message to our level, that of the physical being
.Come on, Idol, that is nothing but conjecture on your part and you know it. Would you please go to Al-Quran and post the ayat which supports what you just asserted, thanks.
Yes, arrogance leads us to have rejecting thoughts(shaytaan the rejected) If we sumbit, our thoughts will be controlled (malaika m-l-k)
The dabbatan and malaika do not have arrogance in the first place!
That is why we are informed about the maliaka that did not obey, he fell due to ARROGANCE. That is the point you are missing. That is what this is about. Can't you see this all around you in the world?
Arrogance/pride, is the result of disbelief/being dissatisfied with the truth and it leads to disobedience, thus, how can any malaika or dabbatan fall into it, given the fact that, they do not have have any arrogance in them to fall into in the first place nor do they disobey?! According to the facts of Al-Quran, Iblis, was of the/mina
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UNBELIEVERS 234 And when We said to the angels Make obeisance to Adam they did obeisance, but Iblis (did it not). He refused and he was proud, and he was one of the unbelievers/kafireena.
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JINN 1850 And when We said to the angels Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.
Nay! they wonder that there has come to them a warner from among themselves, so the unbelievers say This is a wonderful thing
8042 These are they who are unbelievers, the wicked.
Now, are you prepared to assert the dabbatan and malaika are created of a scorching wind/fire and can be of the kafirun and fasiq? I ask this, because the nature of the Jinn and men is known and both types of human make moral choices, show arrogance, disobey Allah , and have had messengers sent to them. Can the dabbatan be kafirun? Are you saying these same things apply to dabbatan and malaika? Given that, the dabbatan and malaika are mentioned together, do the malaika have the capacity to be kafirun and fasiq and the dabbatan do not? Are these your positions, friend?
Yes, and in order to submit, you must change what is in your MIND(nafs). You have to control your thoughts, or someone else will REMOTE CONTROL them. If you do not control your thoughts, then your emotions will ruin you. We should discipline our thoughts so we can remain in the state of peace. Become a gardner in the garden, and keep planting good seeds.
Well, we don't have any arguement here, friend...what exactly is your point though? I think you are becoming lost in your own arguements.
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