Hijab: private, apparent & 7 conditions
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Funny word Brainwashed.... So if I have a dirty mind do I need my Brain Washed?
Anyway... These exact arguments are how the hadith began in the beginning. What do they mean by ______________? Judaism has the same issues which resulted in the Talmud. I think it is a slippery slope into a new hadith if people constantly worry if they "are doing it right". If Allah wanted a specific dress he would have said so in specific terms in the Quran.
We should look at what the essence of the conversation in the Quran. Basically it boils down to modesty. I think that modesty is somewhat cultural and somewhat personal. The culture decides what is modest meaning that you aren't running around making yourself look like a sex object. It is also personal, even within a culture a person may not feel comfortable showing that much of themselves even if it is modest. I think the reason the Quran isn't specific is that Allah wants the Quran to be portable to different cultures, different people and different times.
On a personal note I have seen muslim women wearing hijab and the clothing they chose to wear made them look very sexy even though only their hands and face were showing. Is that modest?
Personally I think the Quran is not specific on many matters because being vague requires us to draw close to Allah. If everything were "set in stone" then we wouldn't have the need to seek Allah, we would just do what we are told. I view the vagueness as a positive as it encourages/requires me to be engaged in a conversation with Allah. And isn't that ultimately what Allah wants? For us to know him, love him and do what is right in the world.
Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
Salam, Shalom, Peace peacebravo
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Anyway... These exact arguments are how the hadith began in the beginning. What do they mean by ______________? Judaism has the same issues which resulted in the Talmud. I think it is a slippery slope into a new hadith if people constantly worry if they "are doing it right". If Allah wanted a specific dress he would have said so in specific terms in the Quran.
Salam, Shalom, Peace peace
peace JewishDude and nice to have your input again. I've bolded, above, what I feel is an excellent point )
It's interesting to know that you also have similar interpretation issues within Judaism. Would I be correct if I assumed there is not so much focus on what women wear?
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For some reason these too passages have always meant boobs to me, and i've never considered otherwise for some reason. boobs seem to be the only female 'ornament' that becomes apparent when feet are stomped. If you don't believe, watch a woman jog...aaaaanyways
laugh I think it depends on your build captainneckbeard. Hips and that general region might also be a good example depending upon that.
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I really think that common sense is the best tool to get the best of this aya. There isn't much point in looking at it for a topographic mapping of territory with inked borders. It is the same as the 24.30, but with the part about showing off added. Many times women depend on their physic appearance to gain any ascendancy, therefore they rely a lot on it and put a lot of effort and stock on it, and society even pushes this to extremes and even makes it a condition for feminity. But what did the Qur'an come to teach us? What are we being taught? We continue to want to extract recipes or minute instructions for anything and everything and not teachings or principles. Why do we fear to take responsibility so much? Of course I don't suppose that rana or anybody doesn't want to take responsibility, but there seems to be fear in us of doing something wrong when obviously there is no reason for it. Rana, even if she discards the opinion of others, ulamas or lamas, without "u", no matter, is not going to run naked and wringling about and enticing the crowd no matter what anybody tells her about what 24.31 says. She really knows that the Qur'an does not say to do that kind of partying, and I do not think either that the Qur'an tells her or anybody to split hairs forever. So really why not just take it without further splitting of hairs and relax.
Relax, friends, relax. Be brainwashed but relaxed. We'll get there in sha' Allah.
Salaam
When I looked it up (here http//www.islamic-dictionary.com/index.php?word=zeinah ) it said "A beautiful ornament or decoration, but the word usually refers to jewellry or the beauty of a woman." So it does say that it can refer to the beauty of a woman...I guess by writing attraction it's been interpreted that way.
If you think it means adornments more than those parts of a woman then it doesn't make sense to me since we are told about clothes and adornments in another ayah. 726 O Children of Adam, We have sent down for you garments to cover your bodies, as well as ornaments; and the garment of awareness is the best. You have garments and ornaments (yay) but you can't use the ornamnents.... >
I think I might just have to take the common sense view soon and give it a rest. I'm feeling dizzy
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peace Rana,
Thanks for providing your "working". It is very helpful.
To cross reference the term "lower the gaze", try corpus.quran.com type in 2431 locate the word you want to study, click on it, it will then bring up its occurrences. OR once you locate the word or expression in this case, use a phonetic search. All tools on www.StudyQuran.org
To me it means to be modest in gaze, i.e. do not oogle the opposite sex etc. Can it mean to look down whenever the opposite sex is around when this would be dangerous and impractical?
In the previous verse it is also said to believing men, thus whatever you take it to mean it has equal application to both genders.How do we know this was necessarily referring to clothing or physical covering?
Good question. We can again cross reference the phrase and subject (e.g. 2460), look to context, apply logic, e.g. how likely is it that it would mention covering the breasts yet mean leave the genitalia uncovered?
Not show off their beauty except what is apparent from it
(some translations do not correctly insert "from it" which is in the Arabic, and since "from/min" is a partitive, it clearly implies within female beauty there is a part apparent, and consequently, a part not apparent)And let them not strike/move with their feet that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty.
I agree with you that the anklet interpretation is implausible, thus the question arises what beauty can be revealed by such movement?I'm surprised you did not mention the crucial "... or the child who has not yet understood the parts/nakedness/exposure/composition of women...". IF it meant hair, or arms or anything common to both genders etc how can one explain away this reference?
Let me know if this helps bracket it further etc.
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peace Rana,
Thanks for providing your "working". It is very helpful.
To cross reference the term "lower the gaze", try corpus.quran.com type in 2431 locate the word you want to study, click on it, it will then bring up its occurrences. OR once you locate the word or expression in this case, use a phonetic search. All tools on www.StudyQuran.org
To me it means to be modest in gaze, i.e. do not oogle the opposite sex etc. Can it mean to look down whenever the opposite sex is around when this would be dangerous and impractical?
In the previous verse it is also said to believing men, thus whatever you take it to mean it has equal application to both genders.peace
"Can it mean to look down whenever the opposite sex is around?" No, as you said it would be impractical and dangerous and also really rude. This is one of the reasons I find it hard to relate to the husband's of some of my friends. They look down and they don't seem to know what to say...to be honest it freaks me out a little. But also, I know from being a non-Muslim that you don't need to avoid looking at the opposite sex in order to be modest and to avoid doing the wrong thing. I've heard so many excuses about this but I never understand because somehow I manage to avoid doing the wrong thing even if I take a second look!! ) I'm strong like that P But I digress...
I have to admit you have suggested looking up the individual words before and I never have. Things always seem hard when you haven't done them before. This time I did though and there weren't many references to ''gaze'' and ''lower'' that gave me too much to go on, but I did find this 493 Surely, those who lower their voices in the presence of the messenger of God, they are the ones whose hearts have been tested by God for righteousness. They have deserved forgiveness and a great recompense. - which I find indicative of general modesty in our conduct being a good thing. There is always that ayah about the donkey's voice too; makes me laugh; I think it's the truth in it!
Good question. We can again cross reference the phrase and subject (e.g. 2460), look to context, apply logic, e.g. how likely is it that it would mention covering the breasts yet mean leave the genitalia uncovered?
Yes it does suggest ''dress'' as in clothing when I look it up like that. ) It certainly would be very strange if breasts were covered but genitals weren't - so I assume it was spelled out in that way due to the specific ways people dressed at the time which I think I mentioned.
Not show off their beauty except what is apparent from it
(some translations do not correctly insert "from it" which is in the Arabic, and since "from/min" is a partitive, it clearly implies within female beauty there is a part apparent, and consequently, a part not apparent)I see your point...adding ''from it'' makes it more clear. Yet God does not spell out those parts that are apparent and not.
And let them not strike/move with their feet that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty.
I agree with you that the anklet interpretation is implausible, thus the question arises what beauty can be revealed by such movement?I'm surprised you did not mention the crucial "... or the child who has not yet understood the parts/nakedness/exposure/composition of women...". IF it meant hair, or arms or anything common to both genders etc how can one explain away this reference?
Let me know if this helps bracket it further etc.
Right you are about me not mentioning that part!! I actually realised my mistake just before you posted; I think it was something Huruf said. Anyway it is important.
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Salaam all
You know, for some reason writing about all this took me back to before I converted but already had developed a strong belief in Allah and thought that Islam was probably the way for me. Back when I would listen to Yusuf Islam & Youssou N'Dour's 'The Beloved' and be inspired in a simple way to love and living a good life lol. Fast forward a number of years and I wonder - do I know more, or feel more, about Islam - or have I actually gone backwards from where I was at that earlier time? Obviously my knowledge is greater in many ways now. But when I think of how beautiful it was in those early days to read Quran and (with my limited understanding admittedly) to feel such a strong connection to God's guidance. Well, I feel a bit sad it became lost in hadith. That was before it got all twisted because of dress, dogs, who I can talk to, whether or not I can take pictures and various other things. What a shame. Still, no need to be depressed of course ... life is great and it goes on. May Allah guide all Muslims towards the light of Quran. peace
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Salam all
I asked my Arabic speaking husband to tell me the difference between these 2 roots from which we get Sadr and jaybika/juyubihinna
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=Sdr
and
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=jybHe was adamant jaybika is a pocket. I thought he was going to confirm Jaybika (for the man) meant chest and Juyubihinna (for the women) meant cleavage or bosom or breasts. BUT he said Jaybika was a pocket and juyubihinna means all the women's special private parts including the hair...
So it seems he is giving me modern day meanings of those words (maybe?), and wonder how it is possible to find out the original meanings of a word. Did Musa pbuh put his hand into his pocket or his chest or his armpit ?
(Chapter 7 - 7108;
Chapter 20 - 2022;
Chapter 26 - 2633;
Chapter 27 - 2712;
Chapter 28 - 2832And how can I prove to my husband "juyubihinna" does not include hair when he believes it is a special word that means more than one body part? After all this is an Arabic word and he speaks, reads, understands Arabic and I showed him the word in the Qur'an to point out it says to cover the chest (not mentioning head or hair by name specifically and thinking "Juyubihinna" meant chest).
Not that I need his approval to NOT wear the scarf ! None of his friends' wives wear the scarf and he has said on a few occasions that if I am not comfortable wearing it, then don't. But then he says if you are going to wear it, at least wear it "properly"! Sigh. I just want to prove a point I guess. (Which is odd - he believes it is an instruction in the Qur'an to cover your hair (because of this "juyubihinna" and because he says Maryam wore a "hijab" in 1917 -!!) BUT he is not trying to persuade me that I SHOULD wear it even though he does believe it is a Quranic instruction, whereas I do not see covering my hair as a Quranic instruction, yet I do...!) Weird!
I do wear a headscarf and I'm pretty comfortable wearing it, (even Summer has got easier!) and I have adopted it as part of who I am and what I wear and colour co-ordinate to go with my outfit (jeans and and my own modest style tunic dress that I have tailor made with "Bench" style thumbholes, how cool!! ) etc. Whether it is a "Khimar" or a "Jilbab" I have no idea, although I do try to make a conscious effort not to refer to it as a "hijab" ("hijab - the headscarf". I initially started wearing a headscarf when I converted to islam (Before meeting my husband!) because I was told it was a requirement of being a "modest muslimah". Now I make a conscious decision to wear a headscarf because quite honestly I feel underdressed/naked without it (now, after 5 years!). I even wear it in the house when I'm on my own sometimes, as I genuinely feel cold sometimes and like to wrap up! Also the designs/textures/colours of my scarves can be made into much more interesting and pleasing (to me) styles and shapes than my plain old boring hairstyle. I am probably one of those "hijab-fashionistas" that get hated on for "defeating the purpose of hijab" ("hijab - the concept". I am not bothered if some hair or a bit of neck shows as I am not (til now) under the impression that head, neck or hair are requirements to be covered and even if they were, would probably count as "what is apparent" because it has become apparent if it has wiggled loose!... and it is quite annoying when people point out to me that a hair is showing - a bit like repeatedly being told you have spinach in your teeth when you don't have a mirror or a toothpick handy...
I guess the "symbol" part of it too plays a part, as I interpret 3359 to mean being recognized. So I am sure people recognize me - as that crazy unforgettable headscarf woman! Fine by me ;DBut seriously, from the linguistics point of view I would like to clear up the sadr / jaybika issue, please if anyone has any useful / interesting info about how Jaybika can mean simply "pocket" for a man but for a women a whole endless list of intimate and non-intimate body parts.
Thanks wa salam
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rana,
hijab is not a muslim tradition. here's a copy of an excerpt from the book,
The Second Jewish Book of WHY by Alfred J. Kolatch
on page 53
Why do strictly Orthodox women keep their heads covered?
In biblical times women covered their heads with scarves or veils as a sign of a chastity and modesty. To expose a woman's hair was considered a humiliation (Numbers 51.
In early talmudic times, it became common practice for married women to keep their heads covered. Rabbi Sheshet said, "A woman's hair is sexually exciting." To be out of door with head uncovered was a serious breach of law and custom, and it constituted sufficeint grounds for a man to divorce his wife without being required to pay her any of the monies normally due upon divorce, as stipulated in the marriage contract.
To emphasize the importance of a woman keeping her head covered, the Talmud relates the story of a pious woman named Kimchit. Kimchit was a the mother of seven sons, each of whom became a High Priest. When asked why she thought she was blessed to have so many distinguished sons, she replied, "Because the beams (posts) of my house never saw my hair."
Today,, only ultra-Othrodox women keep their heads covedred at all times. Some wear a scarf (called a tichl in Yiddish); others wear wig (called a shaytl in Yiddish). -
rana,
hijab is not a muslim tradition. here's a copy of an excerpt from the book,
The Second Jewish Book of WHY by Alfred J. Kolatch
on page 53
Why do strictly Orthodox women keep their heads covered?
In biblical times women covered their heads with scarves or veils as a sign of a chastity and modesty. To expose a woman's hair was considered a humiliation (Numbers 51.
In early talmudic times, it became common practice for married women to keep their heads covered. Rabbi Sheshet said, "A woman's hair is sexually exciting." To be out of door with head uncovered was a serious breach of law and custom, and it constituted sufficeint grounds for a man to divorce his wife without being required to pay her any of the monies normally due upon divorce, as stipulated in the marriage contract.
To emphasize the importance of a woman keeping her head covered, the Talmud relates the story of a pious woman named Kimchit. Kimchit was a the mother of seven sons, each of whom became a High Priest. When asked why she thought she was blessed to have so many distinguished sons, she replied, "Because the beams (posts) of my house never saw my hair."
Today,, only ultra-Othrodox women keep their heads covedred at all times. Some wear a scarf (called a tichl in Yiddish); others wear wig (called a shaytl in Yiddish).Salaam justamuslim )
The fact that hijab is not a Muslim tradition makes it seem to me more likely that we might be expected to cover our hair. )
"A woman's hair is sexually exciting." It might be for him, and for many, but I am aware that this is not the case for all men. Maybe some cultures still attach that kind of importance to long hair but others have moved past it. I know men here in Australia who ''dont'' like long hair on women. Even more obvious and less disputed aspects of the male and female physique are appealing to different people to varying degrees.
My understanding is that you don't agree with him anyway?
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He was adamant jaybika is a pocket. I thought he was going to confirm Jaybika (for the man) meant chest and Juyubihinna (for the women) meant cleavage or bosom or breasts. BUT he said Jaybika was a pocket and juyubihinna means all the women's special private parts including the hair...
Pocket? hehe. I don't know, I"m sorry. Welcome to the discussion though. )
"would probably count as "what is apparent" because it has become apparent if it has wiggled loose!" Nice reasoning. laugh
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Rana
Jewish tradition prescribes basically the same dress code as Islam currently has. The big difference is how it is practiced. Women are to dress modestly and basically just hands and face should show. But people got crafty and twisted things into a weird almost opposite manner.
So here is an example... Women are supposed to cover their hair. So now many orthodox jewish women cover their hair with a wig.
See the twistedness? If I can't show my hair I will buy an expensive wig that is made of human hair in a very very fashionable style and wear that. Is that going along with the tradition?
The issue is one of tradition. One comes up with hadith or talmud because they want to know what is the right way to do something. Sometime long ago what they proposed seemed reasonable so it was adopted. A medical tradition that was quite popular was leeches. Doctors had leeches suck the blood out of you and it would cure your disease. They did this for many many many years and even killed people doing it. But it was a tradition because "I seemed like a good idea at the time".
My personal view is that traditions are generally good so long as they are respected as a tradition versus a law. And sometimes traditions need to change to accommodate the new and vibrant world Allah puts before us. Remember change requires us to put him/her back in our lives and rethink everything and draw close to him/her.
Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
peace UmAlawi,
Re JYB
You may like to request your husband to find his special JYB meaning for women in AQ or any Classical Arabic Dictionary.
From Project Root List to cut out a collar of a shirt, opening at the neck and bosom of a shirt, an opening in a shirt (e.g. where the head goes through or the sleeve), pocket (derived because Arabs often carry things within the bosom of a shirt), bosom, heart, place of entrance for a land/country, hollowed.Secondly, he would then have to explain the logic in the verse 2431, which I am confident he would be unable to.
and because he says Maryam wore a "hijab" in 1917
It actually says "Faittakhathat min doonihim hijaban" / so/then she took from them (family/people - masculine plural) a hijab".
Perhaps he should brush up on his Arabic?
Also, if he is a fan of Maryam, point out how in AQ she goes to a far away place by herself and was in a place where she could meet strangers, including men, by herself. See how he likes that one. ;D
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Rana
Jewish tradition prescribes basically the same dress code as Islam currently has. The big difference is how it is practiced. Women are to dress modestly and basically just hands and face should show. But people got crafty and twisted things into a weird almost opposite manner.
So here is an example... Women are supposed to cover their hair. So now many orthodox jewish women cover their hair with a wig.
See the twistedness?
......
My personal view is that traditions are generally good so long as they are respected as a tradition versus a law. And sometimes traditions need to change to accommodate the new and vibrant world Allah puts before us. Remember change requires us to put him/her back in our lives and rethink everything and draw close to him/her.Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peacepeace JewishDude
I found out about the wig thing a few years ago on a documentary and I have to say I find it strange yet highly amusing. A very interesting interpretation and as you say, a twisting of teaching to cover hair.
"Sometimes traditions need to change to accommodate the new and vibrant world Allah puts before us." This is where some (many even) Muslims seem to have trouble. The possibility that the traditions set into ''hadith'' should change is viewed with such suspician - it's like it's set in stone and could be the devil's work to attempt to modernise. Basically I am in agreement but it's not necessarily something that all Muslims would agree with.
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@ UmAlawi,
The Arabic language seems to be held over some of us - those who don't know it can be told their understanding will always be deficient, those who do know it can still be told it's not enough to understand Quran and you still need ''the scholars''. I have to admit though I know next to nothing of Arabic and it doesn't stand me well in the finer studies of Quran so in some way there is truth in it But those who speak Arabic don't alway understand either because in my experience they can still be totally stuck on the ''interpretations'' they have been taught at the mosque or wherever. It all becomes interwoven and this idea that we as normal Muslims have no place reading, studying and deciding for ourselves the meaning is quite pervasive. It's like trying to talk to a brick wall to get some people to open their minds and hearts & re-examine a particular passage in Quran or a particular hadith to see whether maybe, just maybe, their view of its meaning could be wrong.
I am separated but when I was discussing these matters with my husband I came to realise that for him study meant to ask an Imam. I said to him ''but how can you necessarily trust the Imam's? They are just people too" That comment did not go down well - basically the Imams have studied Quran for so long that it was almost impossible (and almost had a feeling of being sinful) to consider they might be wrong either by accident, through ignorance or through wanting to achieve some gain. So even a conversation that started out logically would end up getting stuck and the number of times I have been 'required' to suspend reason is really sad. In the end I could argue all day but he, and others I know, would still tell me that I don't know Arabic and/or I need to enlist the help of scholars.
InshAllah you'll have better luck with open discussion and enquiry as judging from this forum there are plenty of Muslims out there who don't wish to suspend reason and who are willing to look further.
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The Arabic language seems to be held over some of us - those who don't know it can be told their understanding will always be deficient, those who do know it can still be told it's not enough to understand Quran and you still need ''the scholars''. I have to admit though I know next to nothing of Arabic and it doesn't stand me well in the finer studies of Quran so in some way there is truth in it ( But those who speak Arabic don't alway understand either because in my experience they can still be totally stuck on the ''interpretations'' they have been taught at the mosque or wherever. It all becomes interwoven and this idea that we as normal Muslims have no place reading, studying and deciding for ourselves the meaning is quite pervasive. It's like trying to talk to a brick wall to get some people to open their minds and hearts & re-examine a particular passage in Quran or a particular hadith to see whether maybe, just maybe, their view of its meaning could be wrong.
bravo
Rana
I think you have it on a very good point. So if Allah wants a message spread to everyone then he must choose a language to deliver it in. And we can all ???agree??? that it has been a semitic language such as Hebrew, Aramaic or Arabic. So Allah chose those languages for a reason. Was it for us to be controlled? I doubt it. My guess (which may be heretical here to guess why Allah chose these languages) is that they are so vague. That way loads of interpretations can come from them in its own language and when translated. I think this is a strength. I don't think we should view not knowing Arabic as good as a scholar a bad thing. Remember if we read many different translations we may have a broader interpretation of the verse than a scholar because a scholar is biased in their readings. We can also bias our understanding by choosing a translation that agrees with our view of the world. My point is that not knowing Arabic isn't a limitation as much as it is a challenge. The challenge to us is to read many interpretations, develop understanding, draw close to Allah and to avoid finding a single translation that agrees with us at the exclusion of all others.
Remember Allah wants us to spread the message in the Quran by our thoughts, words and deeds. So he wants it to be translated so everyone can understand it. People who control the access to "right knowledge", in my eyes, are not spreading the message and are committing a sin.
These are again just my thoughts.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Also, slightly off topic, but will mention it here seeing as I mentioned Jayb as pocket. Pocket here in Germany is "Tasche" and Handbag is "Handtasche" and Bag is "Tasche". Towel is "Tuch". Handtowel is "Handtuch". Bath Towel is "Badtuch". Pocket tissues are Taschentucher. So if I said the Tuch is in the Tasche, would you know if I was talking about a "towel in a bag" OR a "tissue in a pocket"? Let's call this the Tissue Issue!
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Also, slightly off topic, but will mention it here seeing as I mentioned Jayb as pocket. Pocket here in Germany is "Tasche" and Handbag is "Handtasche" and Bag is "Tasche". Towel is "Tuch". Handtowel is "Handtuch". Bath Towel is "Badtuch". Pocket tissues are Taschentucher. So if I said the Tuch is in the Tasche, would you know if I was talking about a "towel in a bag" OR a "tissue in a pocket"? Let's call this the Tissue Issue!
It is a question of context. It is the context that actualises the radical meaning of the word or root. If the word is definite, then it must have been introduced previously. It is not any Tuch, it is the Tuch that was previously mentioned or referred to.
Salaam
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Remember if we read many different translations we may have a broader interpretation of the verse than a scholar because a scholar is biased in their readings. We can also bias our understanding by choosing a translation that agrees with our view of the world.
A very interesting way to look at it - I like.
People who control the access to "right knowledge", in my eyes, are not spreading the message and are committing a sin.
peace Yes and there are many examples similar to this where it seems some Muslims are going so totally off track from what the Quran says but somehow they manage to use words to convince others they are right. -
If everything were "set in stone" then we wouldn't have the need to seek Allah, we would just do what we are told.
even then, we probably still won't and do what we are told. suppose if God were to tell us to go kill a cow. how many will just do what we are told and go kill a cow? and how many will ask...
...what kind of cow?
....male cow or female cow?
....young or old?
....what color?
....what if the cow is owned by a unbeliever?
....what time should i kill the cow?
....how should I kill the cow? what knife? long knife with handle? what kind of handle? how sharp should the knife be?
....how should one approach the cow?
....what attire should I wear when killing the cow? what color should my attire be?
....what should I say and how should I say what to say before, during and after killing the cow?
....can a woman kill a cow?
....can a woman who is menstruating kill a cow?
....what if the cow was given hormone?
....should the cow be standing, sitting, lying down to kill the cow?and this is why we need hadiths, imams, scholars, as God wasn't specific....he was vague. God didn't specify how to kill a cow. if you don't speak arabic, you don't understand the Koran. you need to ask the imam. the koran is not clear about the killing of a cow. we need hadiths which explains how prophet killed the cow. who best knows how to kill the cow than the prophet and we are supposed to follow prophet Muhammad. and if you don't kill the cow this way, then you are not a muslim. you are not following the Koran. you are a kafir.
