Sighting of the stars as the marker for the evening-prayer instead of sunset?

truthseeker171

-Follow up of last posting-

20130 So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and from the early part of the night glorify, and at the edges of the day that you may be content.

From this verse we can learn that both the moment before sunrise and the moment before the utter -westening- of the sun -ghuroobiha- (probably the beginning of sunset) are not a part of the night.
So if the moment before sunrise is not a part of the night then the sunrise can not be the marker of the ending of the prayertime of the morning.
Within this context verse 5249 could be relevant.

Verse 1886 seems to indicate that the wording -ghuroobiha- means the setting of the sun, to be precise - the actual moment that the sun starts to vanish gradually behind the horizon. Dhul Qarnain sees from his perspective that the sun sets in a dark water (probably the Black Sea). The Arabic word -fie- is used, so that means that the sun is already vanishing at the moment of -taghrubu-, setting of the sun.

1886 till, when he came to the setting of the sun, it appeared to him that it was setting in a dark, turbid sea;and nearby he found a people . We said "O thou Two-Horned One! Thou mayest either cause to suffer or treat them with kindness!"

This means that according to verse 20130, the moment before the gradual vanishing of the sun behind the horizon, is a part of the day - Probably nobody would say otherwise, but it might be good to see the proof in the Quran.

Following about the timing of the evening- and morningprayer might be relevant

Both the evening- and morningprayer should be done during both parts of the night that are adjacent to the day - verse 11114.
The night starts a while after the actual sunset. Then the actual darkening of the sky starts in the east and goes gradually to the west - verse 3637. This verse suggest a gradual withdrawal of light from east to west, not a general diminishing of the light as can be seen from just before sunset.
So the prayertime of the evening (aisha) starts a while after sunset, when the gradual darkening of the sky begins.
This prayertime lasts until the maximum darkening of the sky - verse 1778, 2187.
The prayertime of the morning (fadjr) starts according to verse 2187 at the moment that the white thread is visible in the sky - when the first rays of light are visible in the east. This moment of -fadjr- is still a part of the night.
This prayertimer ends before sunrise, according to verse 20130. The night ends before the moment of sunrise because verse 20130 states that the moment before sunrise is not a part of the night.
Verse 5249 might indicate the end of the night and thereby the end of the timing for -salat el fadjr-. The time when the stars are fading away - this starts from the moment of the first rays of light - 11114 and lasts until the last stars have vanished.
Verse 5249 uses the plural-form for stars of more than two. This implies that we should not confuse the stars with (the one or two) planets that are often longer visible.

Truthseeker171

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Truthseeker171

herbman

Salaam readers of the Koran,
I would like to read your opinion on following

For the timing of the end of the prayertime of salaat fajr and the beginning of the prayertime of salaat aisha, the marker could be the fading-away of the last stars - for the morning-prayer and the appearing of the first stars - for the evening-prayer. Not the sunrise and sunset.
I do not know of a verse that mentions the actual sunset or sunrise as a criterium for the two borders between daylight-nahar and night-layl, as mentioned in verse 11114.
The timing of sunrise and sunset can differ very much within in an area with hills and mountains. For instance it can vary up to more than an hour when one lives in a valley or on the slope of a mountain. The ability to see the stars would be a far more objective criterium.

Verse 5249 Also during the night glorify Him, and/that is at the setting of the stars.

Truthseeker171

Salam, Peace TS171

try to answer this question
How would people living in poles uphold the prescribed timed SALAT?

Many system can be tested by testing the extremes, this will include automatically all in between. As you may know The Book of Truth is valid for all mankind for all the times.

Many verses state day is for work and night is for rest see 737, 2547, 2786, with the same logic and taking into account the extremes (north and south poles) does it mean when "period of darkness" or "period of daylight" you should work non-stop or rest non-stop? The answer is NO and naturally not, the rules are natural rules, you shoud uphold SALAT in the begining of the working day and at the end of the working day! That is my understanding.

Peace

truthseeker171

Salaam Herbman

try to answer this question
How would people living in poles uphold the prescribed timed SALAT?

Many system can be tested by testing the extremes, this will include automatically all in between. As you may know The Book of Truth is valid for all mankind for all the times.

Many verses state day is for work and night is for rest see 737, 2547, 2786, with the same logic and taking into account the extremes (north and south poles) does it mean when "period of darkness" or "period of daylight" you should work non-stop or rest non-stop? The answer is NO and naturally not, the rules are natural rules, you shoud uphold SALAT in the begining of the working day and at the end of the working day! That is my understanding.

It is a good question to ask what the best solution is concerning the prayertimes if one lives in areas that have polar-nights, the same goes for astronauts on the International Space Station.

The basic-rule might be if one is able to follow the rulings of the Koran concerning for instance the prayertimes then one should follow them.

The prayertimes of dusk and dawn are clearly related to physical phenomena, not to social agreements like working-hours

salat el aisha and salat el fadjr are during the two parts of the night, next to the edge of daylight - 11114
the time of salat fadjr starts when the white thread can be seen (in the sky) - 2187
the time of salat fadjr ends a moment before sunrise, probably when the last stars have vanished - 5249, 20130
the time of salat el aisha begins with the beginning of the night, the gradual darkening of the sky, a while after sunset - 3637
the time of salat el aisha ends at the moment of the maximum darkness of the night - 1778, 2187 (in reverse of fadjr)
the time of the middle-prayer can be related to social agreements, moments of being together - 629, depending on the interpretation of the wording -doolooki as-shams- of verse 1778, this middle-prayer could be done from the moment that the shadows become longer after the noon-time.

The verses that you mentioned seem not to give a ruling that prayer-times are related to working-hours. They rather convey the message that the night is for resting or in case of the prophet for a vigil. And that the daylight part of the day is for seeing and getting up and being active.

Working-hours are not general valid - especially in the 24/7 economies, there seem to be more people unemployed or working in evening, morning- and night-shifts than living at the polar-regions. So one can hardly have a general ruling derived from the start and ending of working-hours.

For muslims who want to keep up with the prayertimes - the advice could be, avoid the places where one has difficulties to follow the rulings of the Koran - verse 497 tells the muslims to migrate in some cases.
At the other hand, verse 53 recognises the principle of circumstances beyond one's control. So one could use the time-tables of the adjacent area where the prayertimes can be followed according the rulings of the Koran.
It is for the conscience of the believers themselves to find his/her way between these possibilities.

Truthseeker 171

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

herbman

Salaam Herbman

Salam,

The prayertimes of dusk and dawn are clearly related to physical phenomena, not to social agreements like working-hours

salat el aisha and salat el fajr are during the two parts of the night, next to the edge of daylight - 11114

True but let me quote these definitions from Lanes
fajr
He clave, ; cut, or ply sins, and to pospone repntance or to say I
divided, lengthwli e this is the primary signification- will repent at a future time. (TA.) - He did,
nifihcation, whence several others, to be mentioned or committed, an action indu,i 5 doubt, or susbelow,
are derived

= Ayn-Shiin-Waw
to feed the evening meal

What I mean is these "salat" can be timed with the morning meal and night meal, which bring all the familly together at a fixed time.

2187 refer to the morning meal and yes it has a clear "end" for that particular meal during Ramadhan

the time of salat fadjr starts when the white thread can be seen (in the sky) - 2187

This verse is about fasting, but yes fajr is defined in the verse.

the time of salat fadjr ends a moment before sunrise, probably when the last stars have vanished - 5249, 20130

I am ok with the definition of Fadjr, my questionning is Can it be flexible depending on situation or not.
I believe for fasting there is no room (verse 2187)--> no way to fast if you do not witness the moon! but for salat it could be some flexibility --> you can uphold salat living in the poles.

the time of salat el aisha begins with the beginning of the night, the gradual darkening of the sky, a while after sunset - 3637
the time of salat el aisha ends at the moment of the maximum darkness of the night - 1778, 2187 (in reverse of fadjr)

again and you said it yourself this is not a sudden event, it is a gradual process and very difficult to say where it starts and where it ends. There should be a good reason for that!

the time of the middle-prayer can be related to social agreements, moments of being together - 629, depending on the interpretation of the wording -doolooki as-shams- of verse 1778, this middle-prayer could be done from the moment that the shadows become longer after the noon-time.

The verses that you mentioned seem not to give a ruling that prayer-times are related to working-hours. They rather convey the message that the night is for resting or in case of the prophet for a vigil. And that the daylight part of the day is for seeing and getting up and being active.

Working-hours are not general valid - especially in the 24/7 economies, there seem to be more people unemployed or working in evening, morning- and night-shifts than living at the polar-regions. So one can hardly have a general ruling derived from the start and ending of working-hours.

For muslims who want to keep up with the prayertimes - the advice could be, avoid the places where one has difficulties to follow the rulings of the Koran - verse 497 tells the muslims to migrate in some cases.
At the other hand, verse 53 recognises the principle of circumstances beyond one's control. So one could use the time-tables of the adjacent area where the prayertimes can be followed according the rulings of the Koran.
It is for the conscience of the believers themselves to find his/her way between these possibilities.

Truthseeker 171

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

I do not agree on the middle prayer.
Please see our discussion here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0

Peace

truthseeker171

Salaam

True but let me quote these definitions from Lanes
fajr
He clave, ; cut, or ply sins, and to pospone repntance or to say I
divided, lengthwli e this is the primary signification- will repent at a future time. (TA.) - He did,
nifihcation, whence several others, to be mentioned or committed, an action indu,i 5 doubt, or susbelow,
are derived

= Ayn-Shiin-Waw
to feed the evening meal

What I mean is these "salat" can be timed with the morning meal and night meal, which bring all the familly together at a fixed time.

2187 refer to the morning meal and yes it has a clear "end" for that particular meal during Ramadhan

4103 - And when you have finished your prayer, remember God - standing and sitting and lying down; and when you are once again secure, observe your prayers. Verily, for all believers prayer is indeed a sacred duty linked to particular times. -

According to this verse there is a direct linkage between the ritual salaat and a schedule regarding the prayertimes, those prayertimes are given by the Koran.
There seems not to be any other subject relevant, as working-hours or meals.
Verse 2187 states in case of fasting, that eating and drinking is allowed during the night until before the start of -fadjr-.
The timing of the morning-prayer is from the beginning of -fadjr- and lasts until a moment before sunsise - problably the moment of vanishing of the last stars - 2187, 5249, 20130.
So here might be a disconnection between eating and praying, also because the communal fast lasts only the full moon of ramadan (three days) and the prayer should be done every day. For the evening-meal during fasting-days and the evening-prayer there is the same timing. But I do not see this meal as a condition to do the evening-prayer - that is just the timing of -aisha- itself.

This verse is about fasting, but yes fajr is defined in the verse.
I am ok with the definition of Fadjr, my questionning is Can it be flexible depending on situation or not.
I believe for fasting there is no room (verse 2187)--> no way to fast if you do not witness the moon! but for salat it could be some flexibility --> you can uphold salat living in the poles.
again and you said it yourself this is not a sudden event, it is a gradual process and very difficult to say where it starts and where it ends. There should be a good reason for that!

I see the prayertimes as fixed by the Koran.
-Salat el fadjr- is during -fadjr-, the definition of -fadjr- is given by the Koran.
As is the case with the timing of the evening prayer. Depending on the distance to the equator - the timeframe of the evening-prayer can vary between about a half an hour and about two hours or more. But anyway the timing is fixed between certain physical phenomena the start of the gradual darkening of the sky, a while after sunset and the beginning of the maximum darkness.

As for upholding the salat living in polar areas, I am not sure - I would advice, if possible, to move to places where one can live according to the rulings of the Koran - verse 497. People tend to move for lesser reasons.
But if one is really stranded there - the ruling of verse 53, circumstances beyond control, could be applied.

Salaam
Truthseeker171

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mmkhan

Salaam,

Many system can be tested by testing the extremes, this will include automatically all in between. As you may know The Book of Truth is valid for all mankind for all the times.

Many verses state day is for work and night is for rest see 737, 2547, 2786, with the same logic and taking into account the extremes (north and south poles) does it mean when "period of darkness" or "period of daylight" you should work non-stop or rest non-stop? The answer is NO and naturally not, the rules are natural rules, you shoud uphold SALAT in the begining of the working day and at the end of the working day! That is my understanding.

How about 'Saum' when Allah said

2187

2187 It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. Allah knows that you used to betray your souls so He has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what Allah has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are the boundaries of Allah, so do not transgress them. It is thus that Allah clarifies His revelations to the people who they may be righteous.

We cannot change the meaning of 'Layl' to end of working hours. It clearly means that if they could fast till night then ok otherwise they should leave that place, that place is not for the followers of Allah's commands, cause it is for everyone who believes.

And I agree with truthseeker171 when he said

Working-hours are not general valid - especially in the 24/7 economies, there seem to be more people unemployed or working in evening, morning- and night-shifts than living at the polar-regions. So one can hardly have a general ruling derived from the start and ending of working-hours.

For muslims who want to keep up with the prayertimes - the advice could be, avoid the places where one has difficulties to follow the rulings of the Koran - verse 497 tells the muslims to migrate in some cases.
At the other hand, verse 53 recognises the principle of circumstances beyond one's control. So one could use the time-tables of the adjacent area where the prayertimes can be followed according the rulings of the Koran.
It is for the conscience of the believers themselves to find his/her way between these possibilities.

Please look at 497-98 below

497
498

497 Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while they had wronged themselves; they said What situation were you in? They said We were oppressed on the earth. They said Was the earth of God not wide enough that you could emigrate in it? To these their abode will be Hell; what a miserable destiny!
498 Except for those who were oppressed from the men, women, and children who could not devise a plan nor could be guided to a way.

May Allah protect us all and guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

herbman

Salam, Peace, mmkhan, ts171, all,

Don't get me wrong, I did not mean to have salat at the meals time. What I meant it was a good opportunity to have it at these time because all familly members are together.
What I meant is FAJR could mean "day break" e.g. when you wake up.

Please help understanding this verse
2458
O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

Would it mean if I pray fajr at 4 am like many northern countries do, I cannot go back and sleep with my wife, cause any one (from my familly) can enter my room as per 2458?

Peace

mmkhan

Salaam brother herbman,

Please help understanding this verse
2458
O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

Would it mean if I pray fajr at 4 am like many northern countries do, I cannot go back and sleep with my wife, cause any one (from my familly) can enter my room as per 2458?

Why you pray at 4am until it matches the time of fajr shown in 2187? If, your time of fajr as per 2187 is at 4 am then why you want to go back and sleep with your wife? Where it is said in 2458 that go for sleep with your wives after Salaat AlFajr?

The three times mentioned in there are private times so permission is needed for those who are mentioned in 2458.

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

herbman

Salaam brother herbman,

Why you pray at 4am until it matches the time of fajr shown in 2187? If, your time of fajr as per 2187 is at 4 am then why you want to go back and sleep with your wife? Where it is said in 2458 that go for sleep with your wives after Salaat AlFajr?

The three times mentioned in there are private times so permission is needed for those who are mentioned in 2458.

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Peace,

in many countries salat al fajr is so early that you need to go back to bed after the prayer to finish your sleep.

peace

mmkhan

Salaam brother,

Peace,

in many countries salat al fajr is so early that you need to go back to bed after the prayer to finish your sleep.

peace

I did not get your point, can you please explain further, but please do read my prev post before you reply.

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

truthseeker171

Salaam Herbman

Don't get me wrong, I did not mean to have salat at the meals time. What I meant it was a good opportunity to have it at these time because all familly members are together.
What I meant is FAJR could mean "day break" e.g. when you wake up.

Please help understanding this verse
2458
O ye who believe! let those whom your right hands possess, and the (children) among you who have not come of age ask your permission (before they come to your presence), on three occasions before morning prayer; the while ye doff your clothes for the noonday heat; and after the late-night prayer these are your three times of undress outside those times it is not wrong for you or for them to move about attending to each other thus does Allah make clear the Signs to you for Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.

Would it mean if I pray fajr at 4 am like many northern countries do, I cannot go back and sleep with my wife, cause any one (from my familly) can enter my room as per 2458?

This verse states that permission has to be asked by for instance young children to enter the room where one sleeps or changes clothes before the morning- and after the evening-prayer and probably before the midday rest.
One can go back to sleep after the morning prayer, the only ruling is that before the morning-prayer permission has to be asked - as standard. Outside these times, the younger children seem to be more free in getting in and out the sleeping-room - but the parents can ask or demand privacy any time of the day as might be needed, the Koran does not forbid this.
Verse 2459 states that the older children should ask permission - as standard, to enter the sleeping-room or an area of privacy, at all times.

Salaam
Truthseeker171

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

herbman

Salaam Herbman

This verse states that permission has to be asked by for instance young children to enter the room where one sleeps or changes clothes before the morning- and after the evening-prayer and probably before the midday rest.
One can go back to sleep after the morning prayer, the only ruling is that before the morning-prayer permission has to be asked - as standard. Outside these times, the younger children seem to be more free in getting in and out the sleeping-room - but the parents can ask or demand privacy any time of the day as might be needed, the Koran does not forbid this.
Verse 2459 states that the older children should ask permission - as standard, to enter the sleeping-room or an area of privacy, at all times.

Salaam
Truthseeker171

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Salam,

I well understand the verse thanks. I was inviting you for reasoning. By this verse fajr beeing at 4 am or 6 am, after that salat "privacy" is not garanteed because after fajr you are not meant to go sleep again!!!!!

Peace

truthseeker171

Salaam

Verse 2458 could be seen as one of the verses that has partly a geographical context - high temperatures during daytime and relative late dawn and early dusk.
Within a community in such an area, it would be normal to stay awake after the morning-prayer, to go asleep after the evening-prayer and to rest during the hours when the temperature is most high.
Especially when there is no electricity for light or airconditioning - it would be the best way of living - to be able to work during the hours of the day that are bearable and have sunlight and to rest during the hours that have a too high temperature, or that one can not see outside.

For other circumstances - for instance with early -fadjr- and a bearable temperature at midday - the Koran seems to forbid nothing.
One does not have to rest during the middle of the day or one can easily go to bed again after the morning-prayer to avoid sleep deprivation.
One is free to make rules in the house that support a household with people who have slept well and enough, within the context of the Koranic rulings.

Salaam
Truthseeker171

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.