Chapter 2 (verses 51-100)

Layth

Chapter 2

And We appointed a meeting time for Moses of forty nights, but then you took the calf after him while you were wicked.
Then We forgave you after that, perhaps you would be thankful.
And We gave Moses the Scripture and the criterion, perhaps you would be guided.
And Moses said to his people ?O my people, you have wronged your souls by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and kill yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.?
And you said ?O Moses, we will not believe you until we see God openly!? So the lightning bolt took you while you were still staring.
Then We resurrected you after your death that you may be appreciative.
And We shaded you with clouds, and sent down to you manna and quails ?Eat from the goodness of the provisions We have provided you.? They did not wrong Us, but it was their souls that they wronged.
And We said ?Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish; and enter the gate while prostrating, and Say ?Our load is removed?, We will then forgive your mistakes, and We will increase for the good doers.?
But the wicked altered what was said to them to a different saying, thus We sent down upon the wicked an affliction from the heaven for what they had transgressed.
And Moses was seeking water for his people, so We said ?Strike the rock with your staff.? Thus twelve springs burst out of it; each tribe then knew from where to drink. ?Eat and drink from God?s provisions, and do not roam the Earth as corruptors.?
And you said ?O Moses, we will not be patient to one type of food, so call for us your Lord that He may bring forth what the Earth grows of its beans, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions.? He said ?Would you trade that which is lowly with that which is good?? Descend to Egypt, you will have in it what you have asked for. They were thus stricken with humiliation and disgrace, and they remained under God?s wrath for they were disbelieving in God?s signs, and killing the prophets with no justification; this is for what they have disobeyed and transgressed.
Surely those who believe, and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabiens; any one of them who believes in God and the Last Day, and does good work, they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
And We took your covenant, and raised the mount above you ?Take what We have given you with strength, and remember what is in it that you may be righteous.?
Then you turned away after this. And had it not been for God?s favour upon you and His mercy, you would have been of the losers.
You have come to know who it was amongst you that transgressed the Sabbath, We said to them ?Be despicable apes!?
And We did this as a punishment for what they had done in it and also afterwards, and a reminder to the righteous.
And Moses said to his people ?God orders you to slaughter a heifer.? They said ?Do you mock us?? He said ?I seek refuge with God that I not be of the ignorant ones.?
They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which it is.? He said ?He says it is a heifer neither too old nor too young, an age between that. So now do as you are commanded.?
They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify what color it is.? He said ?He says it is a yellow heifer with a strong color, pleasing to those who see it.?
They said ?Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify which one it is, for the heifers all look alike to us and we will, God willing, be guided.?
He said ?He says it is a heifer which was never subjugated to plough the land, or water the crops, free from any blemish.? They said ?Now you have come with the truth.? And they slaughtered it, though they had nearly not done so.
And you had murdered a person, then disputed in the matter; God was to bring out what you were keeping secret.
We said ?Strike him with parts from it.? It is thus that God brings the dead to life, and He shows you His signs that you may comprehend.
Then your hearts became hardened after that, they became like stone or even harder; but even from the stones there are rivers that burst forth, or from them are those that crack so that the water comes forth, or from them are what fall from the fear of God; God is not unaware of what you do.
Did you expect that they would believe with you, when a group of them had heard God?s words then altered them knowingly after having understood?
And when they come across those who believe, they Say ?We believe!?, and when they are alone with each other they Say ?Why do you inform them about what God has said to us? Then they would use it in argument against us at your Lord. Do you not understand??
Do they not know that God knows what they conceal and what they declare?
And amongst them are Gentiles who do not know the Scripture except by hearsay, and they only conjecture.
So woe to those who write the Scripture with their hands then Say ?This is from God,? so that they can seek a cheap gain! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they gained.
And they said ?The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days.? Say ?Have you taken a pledge with God? If so, then God will not break His pledge. Or do you say about God what you do not know??
Indeed, whoever gains a sin, and is surrounded by his mistakes; those are the people of the Fire, in it they abide eternally.
And those who believe and do good work, they are the people of Paradise, in it they abide eternally.
And We took the covenant of the Children of Israel ?You shall not serve except God, and regard your parents, and regard the relatives, and orphans, and needy, and say kind things to the people, and hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment.? But then you turned away, except a few of you; you were objecting.
And We have taken a covenant with you ?You shall not spill each other?s blood, nor drive each other out from your homes.? And you agreed to this while bearing witness.
But then here you are killing each other and driving out a group of you from their homes; you act towards them with evil and animosity. And if they come to you as prisoners, you ransom them while it was forbidden for you to drive them out! Do you believe in some of the Scripture and disbelieve in some? The punishment for those amongst you who do so is humiliation in this worldly life, and on the Day of Resurrection they will be returned to the most severe retribution. God is not unaware of what you all do.
These are the ones who have purchased this worldly life instead of the Hereafter. The retribution will not be reduced for them, nor will they be supported.
And We gave Moses the Scripture, and after him We sent the messengers. And We gave Jesus son of Mary the clear proofs, and We supported Him with the Holy Spirit. Is it that every time a messenger comes to you with what your souls do not desire, you become arrogant? A group of them you deny, and a group of them you kill!
And they said ?Our hearts are sealed!? No, it is God who has cursed them for their rejection, for very little do they believe.
And when a Scripture came to them from God, authenticating what is with them; while before that they were mocking those who rejected; so when what they knew came to them, they rejected it! God?s curse be upon the rejecters.
Miserable indeed is what they purchase with their souls, that they disbelieve in what God has sent down as a resentment that God would send down from His grace to whom He pleases of His servants; thus they have incurred wrath upon wrath. And the rejecters will have a humiliating retribution.
And if it is said to them ?Believe in what God has sent down;? they Say ?We believe only in what was sent down to us,? and they reject what came after it, while it is the truth authenticating what is with them. Say ?Why then did you kill God?s prophets if you were believers??
And Moses had come to you with clear proofs, then you took the calf after him; you were wicked!
And We took your covenant, and raised the mount above you ?Take what We have given you with strength, and listen.? They said ?We hear and disobey!?, and they had consumed the calf inside their hearts by their disbelief. Say ?Miserable indeed is what your belief orders of you if you are believers!?
Say ?If the abode of the Hereafter has been set exclusively for you to the exception of all other people, then you should wish for death if you are truthful!?
They will never wish for it because of what their hands have done; and God is aware of the wicked.
And you will find them the most obsessive people regarding long life; as well as those who have set up partners; each one of them wishes that he could live a thousand years. It will not change for him the retribution even if he lived so long, God is watchful over what you do.
Say ?Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, then know that he has sent it down into your heart by God?s permission, authenticating what is already present, and a guide and good news for the believers.?
?Whoever was an enemy to God and His Angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, then so God is the enemy to the disbelievers.?
We have sent down to you clear verses; only the evil ones would disbelieve in them.
Is it that each time they make a pledge, a group of them breaks it? Alas, most of them do not believe.

unknownuser

Salaams all,

I believe this is a good method of improving the translations .

without any prejuidice to the existing translators,the ayat

265
(is standing out like a sore thumb)

........we said to them be ye apes despised(and rejected).........

I think this breaks all scientific rules if indeed we believe the people did change into apes.

Karadun = apes,monkies,baboons.
karada=abject, mean, despicable.

Khaseeen =according to arrabic gramar this form is used about rational people.(and this is the word used in the ayat after the word apes)

Khaseh=should have been used if there where any such apes .

............we said to them be ye abject (mean),despised(and rejected)......

Thanks.

Layth

Peace,

........we said to them be ye apes despised(and rejected).........

I think this breaks all scientific rules if indeed we believe the people did change into apes.

............we said to them be ye abject (mean),despised(and rejected)......

It is consistant with 560 and 7166 that the transformation was physical

Say ?Shall I inform you of worse than this as a punishment from God? Those whom God cursed and became angry at them, and He made from them apes and pigs and servants of evil. Those have a worst place and are more astray from the right path.? (560)

Layth

unknownuser

Salaams layth,
believe me there arn't any monkies and swine in the quran

The Khanzer in 560

means roud /evil/greedy/stuborn/obstinate /stupidly perverse -according to the Quranic Dictionary.

Try these in the verse please .Thanks.
Salaams.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

believe me there arn't any monkies and swine in the quran

What is your understanding of pigs meat regarding food restrictions?

unknownuser

Salaams idolfree,
Sorry i did put some research meterial on the other topic about pigs and the wording KHANZEER.

Sorry ,i don't think pigs are mentioned in the great reading,its all a misunderstanding and mistranslation.

Although i can never eat the pig i think its my programing since my childhood.

Bye.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you MZ,

Sorry i did put some research meterial on the other topic about pigs and the wording KHANZEER.

Sorry ,i don't think pigs are mentioned in the great reading,its all a misunderstanding and mistranslation.

No need to apologize brother D If its not there , its not there. But what about where we are told that we can have it if we are starving (cant remember the actual wording).

unknownuser

Salaams idolfree,
if you remember in the topic on pig/swine a little while back

Khanz=Bad/stinking/magotty
er=to see

Khanzeer=what you see is bad ,this is according to the Quranic dictionery.

Remember any bad meet can make you sick and even kill you ,that is main reason ,i think, it was forbidden.Allah knows better.

So you arn't supposed to eat anything that is bad ,but in case if its matter of life and death then you are allowed it - to be eaten,i think this is what we spoke about.

pigs eat shit ,but on the other hand chickens eat it as well -the free range ones,so if people think you can't eat pig because it is a flthy animal then there are a lot of other animals in the same boat-i think.

Salaams.

TheNabi

Salaam

I'm with Mz on this issue. I do not think Khinzir is referring to pigs really, but rather bad/rotten meat. I cannot bring the relevant ayaat together to make it clear, but this is what I see so far. I eat the pig and I'll tell you, they're pretty tasty. Like Mz said, pigs are not the only animals who eat their shit and other dirty things. So I'm not so sure that what pigs eat is a relevant issue to their being forbidden.

Joe

TheNabi

Salaam Layth

I'd say in ayat 560 they are most astray from the right path because they are abject and obstinate not because of what they are. Like the common misconception concerning Arabs through mistranslations, they are not the worst people.

Joe

unknownuser

Salaam

I'm with Mz on this issue. I do not think Khinzir is referring to pigs really, but rather bad/rotten meat. I cannot bring the relevant ayaat together to make it clear, but this is what I see so far. I eat the pig and I'll tell you, they're pretty tasty. Like Mz said, pigs are not the only animals who eat their shit and other dirty things. So I'm not so sure that what pigs eat is a relevant issue to their being forbidden.

Joe

Salaam,

What is the point of an injunction not to eat bad/rotten meat? Who would eat it except out of desperation anyway?

Wakas

peace brother Joe,

I assume you have read all the information presented on this topic, thus I assume you must think the following evidence is too weak

the separation of khanziri into two words is unworkable grammatically (according to Anwar, and I have not seen otherwise)
the alledged word 'khanz' is not used elswhere in the entire quran
the alledged word 'ara' is not used elswhere in the entire quran (in the form it appears in khanziri)

Am I right in my assumption?

Wakas

unknownuser

Salaams waqas,
you should say your not sure or you don't know if its used anywhere in the quran or something like that,I think you can't say its not used anywhere in the quran -i think this is adviced somewhere in the quran ,you may know where as i cant remember off hand.

Just to help you a little in you search,i came accross

in a anumber of places in the quran

2246,2258,323 etc.

Didst thou not turn thy vision............(Or didst thou not see......)
ALAM TA-RA

I sugest you look how it accurs in the ayat,and it accurs in this fasion in loads of ayats.The letter R is by itself standing as vision/see to my knowledge.

Please i am not convincing anybody i am just putting it here for information purposes.

Salaams.

Layth

Peace,

Salaams layth,
believe me there arn't any monkies and swine in the quran

The Khanzer in 560

means Proud /evil/greedy/stuborn/obstinate /stupidly perverse -according to the Quranic Dictionary.

Try these in the verse please .Thanks.

I must entirely disagree with you on this.

That you would reject "clear" meanings simply because of the argument that it does not conform with scientific knwoledge is totally unnaceptable.

As you are aware, science is a a constant learning process where new concepts and ideas are learned and new possibilities explored (read on the theories in physics regarding space tarvel and worm-hole possibilities)

Rather than denying the Quran to conform to TODAY'S science. I would rather deny today's science to conform to the Quran.

P.S. when looking at physical impossibilities, you forgot the people who slept over 300 years (hybernation) or the man who was preserved for 100 years while all what was around him decomposed...There are many more examples where we still are not even scratching the surface.

Therefore, if God says people became pigs and monkeys, then I say "absolutely".

unknownuser

Salaams layth,
how ever repugnant it may seem ,this is something taught to us.

And there is no way ,to me anyway -that there are monkies and swine in the quran they are there because ,not because allah has put them there BUT ,the translator has put them there ,and 100 years of that person sleeping is again there because of the translator and not because -to me anyway,Allah has broken all his laws so we may hear about something extraordinary.Allah doesn't work like this is what i can see in my life..

Here is an interesting translation if you havn't allready seen it ,might be right as i am only using lanes or the quranic dictionary and not an 11th century monk or the Arabs of that time for the translations - I think.

But by all means correct me , if you reckon i am wrong ,but please note ,i believe it that you and me Will no daught be answering to the Allmighty for what we are explaining.

2259

(original translation)

like the one who passed a town and it tumbled upon its roof how will life be brought to this allah after its death so caused him to die allah a hundred years then he raised him asked how long did you remain dead i remained dead for a day or part of a day he said no you have remained dead for a 100 years look at your food and your drink did not show change and look at your donkey and thus we have made you a sign for the people and look at the bones how we will put them together then will clith them..........

Maat =he became deprived of the intellectual faculty,ignorant.
Maitun = one who has not diedbut is near to dying/or absorbed in grief.
Amatahoo=he caused him to sleep
Aaminn=One who does not see his road or a clear way
Aminn=Blind of both eyes,blind in respect of the mind,erring or one who errs.

Uzaamun =very gret,esteemed grest
Nanshazahaa=we will set together(set up)
Naks-haa=will turn upside down
Naksoo-haa=they will be made to hang their heads inshame
Lahman=Giving glances.
Yaumun=Night or day - time.

New translation
Like the one who had passed a town and it had tumbled upon its roof he said how will life be brought back to this town allah after its death so allah caused him to to be ignorant ,lost his reasoning , blind then he raised him and asked how long did you remain he said i remained a day or part of a day he said no you had lost your reasoning and was Blind look at your food and your drink not show any change and look at your donkey and thus we have made you a sign for the people and look at the very very great how we will set them up then will be made to hang (their heads) in shame ,(ruined) giving glances.....

The entire quran made sense-i believe.

Thanks.

sabo

Peace Mz,

Your translations follow this scheme, you see a word for example "donkey"
and you don't say its an animal, but you say "donkey" is made from "done" + "key" and it means he manufactured/made/produced a key and therefore you go far away from the correct meaning.

Languages are not analyzed this way. Some sense of linguistics would help!

Best regards,
sabo

unknownuser

Thanks Sabo,BUT,

I think you don't follow,because i am not a lingustic but if you care to check out linguastics such as Quranic Dictionary or may be lanes aswell then more then likely you will be surprised from what they say,and this
method of Anelysis or synthasis of words is followed mainly,i have seen by The Quranic Dictionary and as i said and may be lanes aswell,but i think so.

Unfortunately this method of joining two or more words to get a new word isn't just confined to arabic but other lingo's as well.

superman = super +man
bookcase = book +case
superhuman
superfine
postboy
sunrise
SUNSET
so many more.

I hope this helps,
Salaams.

sabo

Peace MZ,

I also use dictionaries, but unfortunately you look up the wrong words.

There is for example no word in arabic called "YR" (&#1585as the last 2 arabic letters of "khanzeer" (&#1585 . The word for to see (yara &#1609 is written similar but not the same.

Similarly the word AAam , and aAAma are written similarly and share some common letters, but are not the same. The first is a year, and the second is blind.

That's why some linguistics may help. I am not saying that you have to be linguist, but the minimum amount of knowledge is to know how are words written. (S P E L L I N G)

The way you present your translations show that you look up transliterations and not original arabic script, because you are confused about letters and you are looking up the wrong words which are looking similar.

an example in english words like sense and since are sounding very similar and if you make a transliteration to these words using arabic letters, they would look identical (&#1587. Imagine an arab analysing english words written in arabic, he would come to totally different conclusions because he thinks sense = since , which is not true of course. The same is exactly your case.

I hope that helps.

Best regards,
sabo

unknownuser

Salaams sabo,

you are not using The quranic Dictionary?

see page 166 if you can for this word and others in the right places.

Salaams.

sabo

Salaam MZ,

2246,2258,323 etc.

I see that you are still confused. The word "" can not mean to see, except if it preceeded with a tool to ommit the vowel at the end, like "lam" or "lan" , etc.. (see 2130 or 3677 and a bit of arabic grammar would help u eleminate this confusion)

and in all cases the verb is not following the object, but the object is following the verb. In your case it would be yara khanz, and not the opposite.

It is an expected result, that you confuse things, and arrive to weird conclusions, when you have no knowledge about the language, which you are tranlating from.

Can you tell me, what is the word for "monkey" in arabic?

God bless