3:7 A MATTER OF PUNCTUATION MARKS. WHICH IS CORRECT?
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Peace be upon you,
It is not going after what we don't understand but merely accepting/believing it, especially if we know it is from the "best hadith".
Merely accepting/believing? Then why will our eyes and ears and hearts be questioned? Why are we told to ponder and reason? How do we know it is the best story? I am sure the chistians say thier story is the best, how do you know? Certainly we don't just accept things blindly, I cannot follow that path.
It is those who harbor doubts in their hearts who pursue those allegorical verses (37) from the "best hadith".
Do you agree?
Here's what I have
(37) He is who descended on you The Book , from it (are) perfected/tightened signs, they are (F) The Book's origin/mother , and others resembling/ambiguous/obscure , so but those who in their hearts (is) deviation from truth , so they follow what resembled from it, asking/desiring the treason and asking/desiring its interpretation/explanation , and none knows its interpretation/explanation except The God and the affirmed in the knowledge. They say "We believed with it, all/each (is) from at our Lord, and none remember except (those) of the pure minds/intelligence ."
I go after the WHOLE of the book, the literal and allegorical, using knowledge.
May the God increase me in knowledge
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Peace all...
Here is a word to word transliteration of 37
Huwa Allazi (He who it is) Anzala aleika al-kitaba ( sent down on you THE KITAB / DECREE/BOOK ) Minhu Ayatun Muhkamatun ( In it are Ayat / Signs/ verses decisive/clear) Hunna Ummu ul-kitabi ( they are the mother/ origin/essence of THE KITAB/DECREE/BOOK) Wa'kharu Mutashaabihatun (and some are similar/vague/not clear) Fa'amma allazeena fi quloobihim zaigun ( Then those of them in whose hearts is ZAigun/doubt/deviation) Fayyatabioona Ma tashabaha minha (Then follow / obey what is Similar/ Vague/ Not clear in IT) Abtighaa'al fitnata ( seeking Fitna/ discord/mischief) wa'abtighaa'a Taweelihi ( and following it's hidden ) Wama Ya'lamu Taweelahu Illa Allahu ( And who knows it's hidden except ALLAH) War-Rasikhoona Fil Ilmi Yaqooloona Aa'amanna bihi( And the Firmly grounded in Knowledge say we believe with/in it) Kullun Min Indi Rabbina ( All of it is from Our RABB/ GOD) Wama Yaz-zakkaru Illaa oolul albaabi ( And who remembers it except people of understanding)
It is very clear to me that the Hidden meaning is clear only to ALLAH..
And the people grounded in knowledge acknowledge the fact the whole ( Clear verses plus Mutashabihat) are all from ALLAH and part of the test of sorting out the believers from the disbelievers. As it is the ACTIONS / GOOD DEEDS of the believers which are enjoined on the believers which are the MOTHER of the BOOK, those people who want to find a way out of not doing what the CREATOR has enjoined on us in the BOOK, they base their arguments on the MUTASHABIHAT and try to justify their actions.This , I believe , is a very basic Human fault. For example, here inthe Free minds Forum, the longest thread is "WHY IBLIS CANNOT BE AN ANGEL" which I think is not that vital to our salvation.
This does not mean that we do not seek Knowledge or verify things but my point is that our focus should be on the ACTIONS which are clearly set out as the DEEN in the Quraan.
FOR EXAMPLE
Surah 6
Say (O Muhammad SAW) "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited you from Join not anything in worship with Him; be good and dutiful to your parents; kill not your children because of poverty - We provide sustenance for you and for them; come not near to Al-Faw?hish whether committed openly or secretly, and kill not anyone whom All?h has forbidden, except for a just cause .This He has commanded you that you may understand.
152.
"And come not near to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he (or she) attains the age of full strength; and give full measure and full weight with justice. We burden not any person, but that which he can bear. And whenever you give your word (i.e. judge between men or give evidence, etc.), say the truth even if a near relative is concerned, and fulfill the Covenant of All?h, This He commands you, that you may remember.[]
153.
"And verily, this is my Straight Path, so follow it, and follow not (other) paths, for they will separate you away from His Path. This He has ordained for you that you may become Al-Muttaq?n (the pious - see V.22)."Here the actions enjoined are clear..
regards
Rahila
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Salaams,
might ineterst some2943,
And these similtude we put forward for mankind;but none will understand them except those who have knowledge.I say ,why would Allah tell us something no one will be able to understand?except him.
Salaams.
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Peace all...
2943 mentions "Amthal" i.e example.. This is totally different from "Mutashabihat".
I say ,why would Allah tell us something no one will be able to understand?except him.
To Test who follows the clear verses and who follows the Mutashabihat..
Marie.. thank you for your blessing
regards
Rahila
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Peace mz357,
I think this is not the same thing "al-amthalu" which is translated as the examples in 2943 and "ayat mutashabihat / similar verses"
Ahmad Shabir
2943 And so We cite examples for mankind, but men of Science will make best use of their intellect. (?Aalim = Scientist. (3022- 23], (3527-2).FM
2943. Such are the examples We cite for the people, but none comprehend except the knowledgeable.If you believe in the life after the death, Allah describes us the resurection and gives us some similar examples from our world life
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He brings the living out of the dead, and He brings the dead out of the living. And He revives the land after its death. And similarly you will be brought out.
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And he cites an example for Us, while forgetting his own creation! He says ?Who can resurrect the bones while they are dust??
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Say ?The One who made them in the first place will resurrect them. He is fully aware of every creation.?
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Say ?God gives you life, then He puts you to death, then He will gather you to the Day of Resurrection, in which there is no doubt. But most people do not know.?
Only Allah hold the whole truth on how we will be given the life after the death. I consider these verses like similar verses.
And who follow what is similar, it is another thing, through the quran we could see how one follow what is similar and not the true meaning of some verse.
Allah knows best
Marie
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Hello Tony, all!
Clearly, judging solely by arabic of that part of 3/7, only the god knows the interpretation, however this statement is not to be taken as an absolute statement or pushed to the extreme, but as is the case with all other sayings of the book, it is to be understood in the context of the passage and particularly in the context of the book as a whole....
the main point of the passage is division of the book into 2 categories of which one is decisive, representing mother/basis/prototype/stance of the book and the second which is ambiguous and consequently abused(literarly followed) by those in whose hearts is deviation seeking to interpret it and seeking to make discord or to mislead... and, it is only in that sense that the god has said that only He knows its interpretation....
That simply means that His precise words are to be considered as the representative of the book
s and the Gods stance on each topic and not the ambiguous ones (they are to be followed instead of ambiguous, cause they are the prototype of the book and not the ambiguous)... and not that people can not understand some parts of the book....The decisive statements of the book are thus the judge over the meaning of the ambiguous ones and the qualifier or the only valid explanation of the ambiguous ones(only The God knows the interpretation!), and not the subjective human intepretations....
For better understanding of this topic make a comparative analysis with the topics of
1 intercession....
2 knowing of the unseen/unwitnessed...
4 guiding......
5 obeying.....all these things are said to belong solely to the god in some places of the book, but in other places it is allowed that some humans can poarticipate in them(but only through the God`s words)..the same case is with the understanding of the book and knowing its intepretation...
Peace and best wishes, Zlatan
p.s. a shia scholar tabtabai has a very very insightful and comprehensive article on the topic in which he has made an overwiev of all the possible intepretations of 3/7..do check it it is accessible through the net...
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Peace be upon you MZ,
2943,
And these similtude we put forward for mankind;but none will understand them except those who have knowledge.I say ,why would Allah tell us something no one will be able to understand?except him.
Exactly my thoughts.
The God tels us there are straightfoward verses and othersthat are not so straightfoward, the ones that are not so straightfoward include the "prophetic" stories, which are symbolic.
I makes no sense to give someone a message they cannot understand, and if you think you cannot understand it, why even bother studying? We must realize that we CAN understand it, it is not for some people a long time ago, this is a message for US, right now.
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Peace all,
I think we have not the same understanding of the similar verses. I'll gave an example in my last post.
The question is
How do we recognize these verses in the light of the quran ?
I think Only Allah holds the true interpretation or the truth about several things which belong to the unseen "alghayb" (the life after the death the resurrection......
Any thoughts?
Marie
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Peace be upon you Marie,
I think we have not the same understanding of the similar verses. I'll gave an example in my last post.
The question is
How do we recognize these verses in the light of the quran ?
I think Only Allah holds the true interpretation or the truth about several things which belong to the unseen "alghayb" (the life after the death the resurrection......
Any thoughts?
Al ghayb means unseen, but it does not mean unknown. We cannot see electricity, but we know about it.
Regarding the Ending time, I understand that to be the time of effect. Everything we do produces an effect, we are to have faith in the ENDING TIME, which is, that an effect will be coming.
Regarding ressurection, that is simply when one comes out of darkness of ignorance.
Remember, the states of mind described as the "garden" and the "fire" start right here on Earth, so it is not something we don't know about, just because we cant see it.
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Peace dear sister Marie, brother Kyle, all,
I think that both views I see here on this thread are based on a wrong reading of 37.
The first mistake comes from the wrong understanding of what the verb "ta'awiluh" is referring to.
The verb "ta'awiluh" is referring to a singular masculine while "ayat mutashabihat" is plural feminine. The ONLY singular masculine object in the sentence is "al-kitab" (the book). Hence, "ta'awiluh" must refer to "al-kitab" and NOT to "ayat mutashabihat".
The second mistake comes from the wrong understanding that verses means "ayat" as demonstrated here
How do we recognize these verses in the light of the quran ?
The word "ayat" means "signs" NOT "verses". Verses and associated numbering is not part of the original text. Hence, there is no way to tell, for example, how many verses are in any chapter, or where 91 or 9129 end or begin.
Therefore, trying to find verses and map them to "ayat" is the wrong approach to begin with. We have all experienced instances where even a single word in the great reading when understood in the context can provide a sign for us to go in the right direction.
The third problem with the understanding of 37 is demonstrated here
Al ghayb means unseen, but it does not mean unknown. We cannot see electricity, but we know about it.
The word "ta'awiluh" is not equivalent to "seeing it", "knowing it", "understanding it", or even "interpreting it". The word "ta'awiluh" comes from "awal" which has the meaning of primary/first/original. So what is being talked about here is not any "knowledge" or "interpretation" but it is the original 100% true meaning intended by The God.
Hence, we know about electricity, as we know about many signs/"ayat" in nature, and we understand it to some degree but we will never 100% fully understand it and grasp its true 100% significance as a sign in this low life.
Now, how many of us can claim to know the original 100% true meaning of the book intended by The God? None of the people here, despite the many years we spent studying the book would ever claim that. Related to this is our motivation to continuously improve our understanding of the book. On the other hand, those who have blurriness in their hearts desire ("ibtigha'a") the original 100% true meaning. The natural law of supply and demand takes over and this desire is satisfied by the clergy who claim that they, the prophet, or whoever knows the 100% true meaning intended by The God. Hence, they take their clergy's interpretation as the "ta'awil" and, as a result, they don't strive to continuously improve their understanding of the book.
Now notice that those who have faith/trust say "amana bihi" (singular masculine) and then they say "kulun min 3indi Allah" ("kulun" is plural feminine/masculine). So they have faith/trust in the book as a whole. Now, I am sure each one of us can bring an example of some sign in the book that he/she was confused about. At that time, one can make three choices
- Take the easy way and just seek the interpretation of a Sheikh as the 100% true original intended meaning.
- Take another easy way and give up by not having faith anymore.
- Take the difficult path and say to oneself "I know that the other signs in the book that I understand more solidly come from The God and this sign is also in the book and hence comes from The God too. I will be patient and continue to gain knowledge to better understand this particular sign that, for now, confuses me."
I apologize if my post is too long but I think that all of us experienced what 37 is saying. I feel that I must also share that when one takes the difficult path and then he/she reaches a better understanding and the sign is no longer confusing, this greatly increases one's faith.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman.
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
Excellent analysis, I cant believe I missed the "ayat = signs" and Al kitaab instead of al quran.
Thank you also for the clarification on the verb "ta'awiluh"
I do have a problem with the following statement though;
On the other hand, those who have blurriness in their hearts desire ("ibtigha'a") the original 100% true meaning.
I disagree with that, why wouldn't we desire the 100% true meaning of anything?
With that said, I take the beginning of this verse to mean;
(37) He is who descended on you The Book
Al Kitaab is the ever unfolding book of our lives which will be handed to us in either our right or left hands at the end of this test, it is not this reading(quran)**
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Peace Ayman,
Excellent post bro.
I especially share this understanding
"I know that the other signs in the book that I understand more solidly come from The God and this sign is also in the book and hence comes from The God too. I will be patient and continue to gain knowledge to better understand this particular sign that, for now, confuses me."
May Allah increase us all in knowledge.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace dear brother Wakas,
Can you provide a trans. of 37 for me, so I can fully understand (and compare/verify etc.) what you meant.
- He is the one who descended on you the book. From it are judging signs that are the cradle/origin of the book, and others that are confusing. So in the case of
(1) Those who have blurriness in their hearts, they follow what is confusing from it (the book) desiring a problem and desiring its (the book's) original interpretation. And none knows its (the book's) original interpretation except The God. And,
(2) Those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We have faith in it (the book), both (types of signs) are from our Lord."
And none remember other than those with intellects.
- He is the one who descended on you the book. From it are judging signs that are the cradle/origin of the book, and others that are confusing. So in the case of
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Peace dear brother Kyle,
Thank you for your kind comments.
On the other hand, those who have blurriness in their hearts desire ("ibtigha'a") the original 100% true meaning.
I disagree with that, why wouldn't we desire the 100% true meaning of anything?
Why desire the impossible? Brother, please remember that the hidden whisperer plays on our desires.
Everything is related. If you understand the 100% true meaning of the book then you would understand the whole universe and creation. Only our Lord understands that.
I only desire mercy from my Lord.
With that said, I take the beginning of this verse to mean;
(37) He is who descended on you The Book
Al Kitaab is the ever unfolding book of our lives which will be handed to us in either our right or left hands at the end of this test, it is not this reading(quran)**
Right now, the way I understand "the descended book" is that it is this book that descended on the prophet and that we are reading. Of course, I could be wrong so I will study this more, but for now, this is my understanding.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman.
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
You are making good sense. Let me think on this for a while.
I think I will start a thred on Al Kitaab also.
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Peace be upon you,
After thinking on that I agree, because it is not talking about getting the 100% understanding of this reading(quran), it is talking about the 100% understanding of life. This reading is only a guide in this life, and it is possible to remember these messages in order to discipline your life, although you will never understand life 100%.
Comments.
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Peace brothers Kyle, Ayman, all,
Al ghayb means unseen, but it does not mean unknown. We cannot see electricity, but we know about it.
This is my understanding of the news of ?Al ghayb?, they describe events which passed or will pass respectively in a far past or a far future and where we were absent or we have not the possibility to be present In other word, we are ghaibeen (absent) and we know this news through the quran.
Ahmad Shabir
344 (O Messenger) We are revealing to you these events of history / the news of the unseen so that you may dispel conjecture and rumor. You were not there when the monks cast lots and contended with one another to take hold of (the young beautiful) Mary after Zechariah.Thalika min anba-i alghaybi nooheehi ilayka wama kunta ladayhim ithyulqoona aqlamahum ayyuhum yakfulu maryama wamakunta ladayhim ith yakhtasimoona
2844 And (O Prophet) you were not present on the Western slope (of Mount Sinai) when We expounded the Commandments to Moses, nor were you among those who witnessed his times.
2845 Nay, but between them and you We brought forth many generations, and long was their life-span. And neither did you dwell among the people of Midyan, conveying to them Our Messages. Nay, but We have been sending Messengers.
2846 And neither were you present on the slope of Mount Sinai when We called Moses. But you are sent as an act of your Lord?s Grace, to warn people to whom no Warner has come before you, so that they may reflect. ((323), (366). Prophet Ishmael, the ancestor of Arabs, cannot be considered a Prophet to them since Children of Ishmael multiplied and inhabited Arabia as the Arab community long after his death. See (2125) and introduction to Surah 11 Hud).
Regarding resurrection, that is simply when one comes out of darkness of ignorance.
The following verses are sufficient for me, I do not need to follow what is similar because I believe the language in the quran is straightforward and not an enigma.
515 O People of the Book! Now has come to you Our Messenger, to make clear to you much of what you have been concealing from yourselves and others. He ignores much of the irrelevant accounts and pardons much of your misdeeds. Now has come to you from Allah a Beacon of Light and a Clear Book.
516 Through this Book Allah guides to paths of Peace, those who seek His Approval. He brings them out of darkness into the Light of His Grace, and guides them to the Straight Path.
And those who deny Our signs, they are deaf and dumb, in darkness.(639)
141 A.L.R. Alif. Laam. Ra. Allah Aleem the Knower, Raziq the Provider. A Divine Writ is this that We have revealed to you (O Prophet). So that you may bring forth all mankind, by their Sustainer?s leave, out of darkness into Light. On to the Way that leads to the Almighty, the Owner of all praise. (145), (3343).
145 (Moses spoke the language of his people.) We sent him with Our Messages, saying, "Bring your people from darkness to Light and remind them of the days of Allah (when different nations earned His Blessings). Verily, there are lessons in the history of nations for those who are steadfast in their resolve to rise as a community and wish that their efforts be fruitful.? (SHUKR or gratefulness is not just the verbal proclamation of 'Thank God!' It pertains to our efforts bearing fruit, and then our sharing of the fruit of success with the servants of Allah).
Peace dear sister Marie, brother Kyle, all,
I think that both views I see here on this thread are based on a wrong reading of 37.
The first mistake comes from the wrong understanding of what the verb "ta'awiluh" is referring to.
The verb "ta'awiluh" is referring to a singular masculine while "ayat mutashabihat" is plural feminine. The ONLY singular masculine object in the sentence is "al-kitab" (the book). Hence, "ta'awiluh" must refer to "al-kitab" and NOT to "ayat mutashabihat".You are right. I thing, this is the same wrong reading for 345 and 4171.
The word "ta'awiluh" is not equivalent to "seeing it", "knowing it", "understanding it", or even "interpreting it". The word "ta'awiluh" comes from "awal" which has the meaning of primary/first/original. So what is being talked about here is not any "knowledge" or "interpretation" but it is the original 100% true meaning intended by The God.
Maybe the word "ta'awiluh" ?al-kitab? is other thing than the original 100% true meaning intended by The God in His Book.
The following verses bring an additional lighting
752 We have given them a Book of Knowledge that explains the Guidance in full detail. It is a Mercy for those who accept it. (It has the Power to change hellish societies into paradise on earth).
753 Are they waiting until the consequences stare them in their eyes / the realization of His threat and His promises? The Day the consequences appear / it?s true realization will come, those who disregarded it will say, ?The Messengers of our Lord did bring the Truth. Are there any intercessors to intercede on our behalf? Or can we be returned that we behave differently from our past?? They have put their ?Self? in loss and their own forgery fails them. (They will seek mediation for their mutual conflicts and long for starting from scratch. Since they have hurt their "Self", they have lost the power of judgment and they would need help. They have been fabricating unworkable systems).
Hal yanthuroona illa ta/weelahu yawma ya/tee ta/weeluhu yaqoolu allatheenanasoohu min qablu qad jaat rusulu rabbina bialhaqqifahal lana min shufaAAaa fayashfaAAoo lanaaw nuraddu fanaAAmala ghayra allathee kunnanaAAmalu qad khasiroo anfusahum wadalla AAanhum makanoo yaftaroona
459 O You who have chosen to be graced with belief! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, the Central Authority of the Divine System, and those whom the System has appointed as office-bearers. If you have a dispute concerning any matter, refer it to the Central Authority. If you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day, this is the best approach for you, and more seemly in the end / That is better destiny / That is better and more suitable for knowing
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanooateeAAoo Allaha waateeAAoo alrrasoola waolee al-amri minkum fa-in tanazaAAtum fee shay-infaruddoohu ila Allahi waalrrasooli in kuntumtu/minoona biAllahi waalyawmi al-akhiri thalika khayrun waahsanu ta/weelan
Marie
