3 salawaat

unknownuser

Salaams,
must say ,an icredible argument for aymans point of view-and in ayat 2149 from the context it is AL kharaate OR good works and AL-HAQ ,how can a physical building be these (from the context),But if Al-masjid Alharam is a set of rules thereby actions it make sense - to me anyway.

Salaams aymaan,all.

Layth

Peace Wakas,

One question about the slw article you posted, how recent is it?
I am assuming it is your current view but the reason I ask is that it is significantly different from your previous view (assembly).

It is the most recent. I have abondoned completely the "assembly" view.

Re wusta = middle

If that is your view, what is your opinion of the following points
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1171

It is a weak argument suggesting that "wusta" is balanced. The only reason "balanced" is even used is because the original word "W A S A T" means "that which is between" (which is how "balanced" is desrived)

Even the other meaning "average" is also derived by taking the true meaning of "that which is between".

Finally, the direct comparison of "Wusta" (223 to "Awsat" (6828, 2143) overlooks the clear fact that the two words are not the same.

11114 ---> zulafun is plural meaning proximities

I do not see it as plural, but singular (see 3437, 3840, 393 for similarity)

339 ---> it is the verb salla and not the noun salat

Agree.

do you think people should face mecca?

I understand that the "temporary" Qibla of Mecca has long since been restrored to Jerusalem (The Restricted Temple). Therefore, the facing should be to Jerusalem, not Mecca.

I see the stand in 2238 in the metaphorical sense, e.g. "stand for justice".

4102 makes very clear that the Salat is being done in a "standing position". We also can derive this from the licence given in 2239 to perform Salat while walking or riding/sitting in case of worry.

Is a mental prostration acceptable or must it be physical?

According to 4102 it is a "physical" prostration which ends the Salat (this can be seen in that prostration may be skipped if their is rain (i.e. the ground is muddy) or the person is ill.

Layth

Wakas

peace Layth,

You did not mention any of my 4 points in the referenced thread about wusta.

I do not see it as plural, but singular (see 3437, 3840, 393 for similarity)

zulafun is definitely in the plural. zulfa is the singular and appears in 3437, 3840, 393.

I understand that the "temporary" Qibla of Mecca has long since been restrored to Jerusalem (The Restricted Temple). Therefore, the facing should be to Jerusalem, not Mecca.

I will wait for a reply to brother Ayman's point before discussing this further.

4102 makes very clear that the Salat is being done in a "standing position". We also can derive this from the licence given in 2239 to perform Salat while walking or riding/sitting in case of worry.

I would agree that being stationary (i.e. in one location) is the preferred. I would be hesitant to state one must be standing however.

According to 4102 it is a "physical" prostration which ends the Salat (this can be seen in that prostration may be skipped if their is rain (i.e. the ground is muddy) or the person is ill.

That is a good point about the rain. I will have to research & think about this point further.

Wakas

ayman

Peace dear brother Layth,

I understand that the "temporary" Qibla of Mecca has long since been restrored to Jerusalem (The Restricted Temple). Therefore, the facing should be to Jerusalem, not Mecca.

The Arabic word "makkat" (or more accurately MK(t)) is listed in classical Arabic dictionaries under either MKK or MK.

Al-Mo7it lists it under MKK, the meaning given is destruction and wearing down. It also lists the meaning of TMKK as an adversary insisting on something, which is consistent with the standoff in 4824.

Lisan Al-3arab lists it under MK and the meaning of MK(T) is given as "destruction" and TMK as "destroy".

Al-Wasit lists it under MK, the meanings given are (I am trying to give a literal translation) sucking everything out, insisting on revenge from an adversary, and the thing, which is worn down or destroyed.

Al-Ghani lists it under MKK, the meanings given are sucking, insisting with demands on an adversary.

Here is a translation of 4824 using Classical Arabic dictionaries and the context of war from the verses to translate the word "makat"

And it is He Who has restrained their hands from you and your hands from them in the midst of insisting on the adversary/destruction/wearing down, after that He gave you the victory over them. And Allah sees well all that ye do.

I used Yusuf Ali's translation but while he left "makat" un-translated I didn't. As you can see the clear classical Arabic meaning fits perfectly in the context of the military standoff in verse 4824.

Moreover, all sides of the debate on the historicity of Makkat agree that the name Makkat doesn't occur in any "pre-quranic" inscriptions.

Those promoting the historicity of Makkat are forced to bring the ONLY ONE reference by Ptolmey to an insignificant town by the name of Macoraba for the simple reason that they know very well that there is NO reference to Makkat. Surely, if anyone had ANY archeological reference to a place named Makkat prior to the revelation of the great reading they would have brought it by now and would have ended the debate.

Based on the context from the great reading/"quran", linguistic evidence from Arabic dictionaries, and the total absence of archeological evidence supporting that there was a "pre-quranic" town by the name of Makkat, the only logical unbiased conclusion is that "makkat" is simply a mundane common noun like thousands of others in the great reading/"quran".

We know for sure that "post-quranic" hypocrites were in the habit of renaming things long after the fact to match common concepts in the great reading. For example, even the traditional view concedes that what is currently named Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa was named so long after the fact. By the same token, the evidence points to the renaming to Makkat of an insignificant town with a small pagan shrine to force a link to 4824.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman.

Layth

Peace Wakas,

This phrasing implies the middle prayer is more important than other prayers as this is already covered under "preserve the prayers", so why mention it again?
There is no other evidence in Al-Quran to suggest the middle prayer is more important than others, in fact, it seems to imply that the quran/reading at dawn is most important IF any had to be chosen.

Actually, there is.

If you analyze the settings of each Salat time, you will see that the "wusta/middle" time is the one where most trade/business/activity is taking place (fajr is when someone just woke up, esha is when they are home and it is nearly pitch dark). Thus, that a person would be pre-occupied from Salat is most probable to occur during the "wusta" time (where the sun is still out, and the air is cooler than midday)

Here is the only example of an implied Salat being missed, not by just a nornal guy, but by a prophet

"And to David We granted Solomon. What an excellent and obedient servant. When, during the end of the day, well trained horses were displayed before him. He said 'I enjoyed the good of materialism more than I enjoyed remembering my Lord, until the sun has completely set.' 'Send them back.' He then rubbed their legs and necks." (Quran 3830-33)

If "middle" is chosen then 2239 doesn't fit well, because it implies we are allowed to do salat on the move, if so, which one is it talking about, prayers in general or just the middle prayer?

It fits that 239 speaks for all three (especially since 238 starts with the opening "preserve the Salawat", before highlighting the middle on its own)

The middle prayer, if there is one, would be the only one without a stated time-range, the dawn & dusk salat have time-ranges. It is logical to have a time range. Please think about this concept.

The range is from when the sun declines until it has completely dissapeared from site (this is about 15-20 minutes).

Also, there is no traditional salat named wusta, indicating it was never taken to mean a specific salat. The traditional names applied to noon-time salat are Zohr & Asr.

Maghrib is the corresponding Salat as used today. The name would simply be "wusta" if we stick to the Quran (but this is no longer possible for the Sunnis/Shia because they have added 2 more times thus making it impossible to refer to maghrib as "wusta").

zulafun is definitely in the plural. zulfa is the singular and appears in 3437, 3840, 393.

I have checked this in my Arabic dictionary, Zulufan is not listed as being the plural (the plural is given as Zulfat).

I would agree that being stationary (i.e. in one location) is the preferred. I would be hesitant to state one must be standing however

Again, I refer to 4102 for evidence that they are all standing.

Layth

Layth

Peace Ayman,

Those promoting the historicity of Makkat are forced to bring the ONLY ONE reference by Ptolmey to an insignificant town by the name of Macoraba for the simple reason that they know very well that there is NO reference to Makkat. Surely, if anyone had ANY archeological reference to a place named Makkat prior to the revelation of the great reading they would have brought it by now and would have ended the debate.

Based on the context from the great reading/"quran", linguistic evidence from Arabic dictionaries, and the total absence of archeological evidence supporting that there was a "pre-quranic" town by the name of Makkat, the only logical unbiased conclusion is that "makkat" is simply a mundane common noun like thousands of others in the great reading/"quran".

I fully understand and appreciate your point, however, if you walk sequentially through the story of pilgramage and qibla as per the Quran then I believe it paints a difefrent picture.

Bakka (Jerusalem) is the Qibla.
Hajj would be conducted to Jerusalem.
The prophet is driven out and emigrates.
God changes the Qibla since Jerusalem is off limits (due to Roman presence)
A new focal point is decreed until the prophet and Muslims can regather their streangth.
A failed campaign against Rome is undertaken to retake Jerusalem (possibly the battle of Mu'ta)
The Qibla is re-established to Jerusalem.
Rome is defeated (this would possibly be the battle of Tabuk)

As such, I do not believe that Mecca would have had any significance before the Qibla change to be mentioned in the history books (unlike Jerusalem). As for after the prophet's death, that is a different story altogether (civil war, chaos, etc..)

ayman

Peace dear brother Layth,

Bakka (Jerusalem) is the Qibla.
Hajj would be conducted to Jerusalem.
The prophet is driven out and emigrates.
God changes the Qibla since Jerusalem is off limits (due to Roman presence)

The fact is that Jerusalem is now off limits to you and most people and yet you could build a building in Riyadh with a niche that is supposed to be facing it using the great circle or any other method. Hence, the rationale you are giving (that Jerusalem is off-limits) actually negates that "qibla" in 2144 is a physical direction of facing Jerusalem or anywhere else.

A new focal point is decreed until the prophet and Muslims can regather their strength.

One doesn't need an army or any strength for that matter to imagine to be physically facing a Temple in Jerusalem or anywhere else on earth.

A failed campaign against Rome is undertaken to retake Jerusalem (possibly the battle of Mu'ta)
The Qibla is re-established to Jerusalem.
Rome is defeated (this would possibly be the battle of Tabuk)

As such, I do not believe that Mecca would have had any significance before the Qibla change to be mentioned in the history books (unlike Jerusalem). As for after the prophet's death, that is a different story altogether (civil war, chaos, etc..)

Brother, you focused on a small part of my argument that was meant as additional evidence and you didn't address the main argument from the great reading and the Arabic language. How do you translate 4824? Please provide your translation. Do you leave the word "makkat" un-translated? If you do, then please explain why you take it as a proper name despite the fact that the clear Arabic dictionary meaning perfectly fits in the context?

Also, before the discussion goes in different directions, please reconcile 1087 and 2144 as I suggested in my prior post. Are you facing Jerusalem wherever you may be? Are you facing it now while you are reading this? There are no exceptions given in 2144.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman.

Layth

Peace Ayman,

The fact is that Jerusalem is now off limits to you and most people and yet you could build a building in Riyadh with a niche that is supposed to be facing it using the great circle or any other method. Hence, the rationale you are giving (that Jerusalem is off-limits) actually negates that "qibla" in 2144 is a physical direction of facing Jerusalem or anywhere else.

I am merely stating what the history during the prophet's time looked like as I can summerize. The change of Qibla is a matter that can only be ordained by God and that was done once with Moses and once with Mohammed.

One doesn't need an army or any strength for that matter to imagine to be physically facing a Temple in Jerusalem or anywhere else on earth.

The Qibla also happens to be the same place where the Pilgrimage is held (Masjid Al-Haram). Thus, if the prophet and his companions could not hold the pilgrimage there any more, then it would make sence why the Qibla would be changed by God until the masjid alharam is once again open to them.

Brother, you focused on a small part of my argument that was meant as additional evidence and you didn't address the main argument from the great reading and the Arabic language. How do you translate 4824? Please provide your translation. Do you leave the word "makkat" un-translated? If you do, then please explain why you take it as a proper name despite the fact that the clear Arabic dictionary meaning perfectly fits in the context?

I leave Mecca as a proper name as well as that of Bakka.

I know for a certainty that there was a Qibla change during the life of the prophet...I know for a certainty that it was a great test, except for those who believe...I know for a certainty that the Qibla was re-established to the Restricted Temple (masjid alharam).

Also, before the discussion goes in different directions, please reconcile 1087 and 2144 as I suggested in my prior post. Are you facing Jerusalem wherever you may be? Are you facing it now while you are reading this? There are no exceptions given in 2144.

Wherever does not mean 'whenever.' I think it is perfectly clear that you would face the Qibla 'wherever' you may be, but not 'whenever' that is.

Layth

Wakas

peace brother Layth,

I dont understand your response to my point 1.
To say that 2239 speaks of all three is a precarious assumption.
I am somewhat confused by your time-ranges for all three. I think this is what you're saying

Fajr - one end of daylight (how long is this salat, do you have a time-range, if so, where do you get it from?)

Wusta - when the sun begins to decline past the horizon until it disappears

Isha - by your own translation it seems you have ended up with a salat time (Wusta) crossing another salat time (Isha)

You shall hold the Salat at the waning* of the sun, until the darkness of the night...

dulook = rubbing/setting

To explain this, you would be forced to translate 'dulook-as-shams' as 'sunset' (which is fair enough from Lane) but in doing so, will make the following point in your article invalid

Middle Salat is being done as the person is ending his/her workday, and is therefore most likely to perform this Salat in a group with work colleagues or associates ? Quran 3830-33, 629 (thus giving the middle Salat a ?community? setting).
Evening Salat is being done as the person has reached home, and is therefore most likely to perform this Salat with spouse, children, and dependants ? Quran 20132 (thus giving the evening Salat a ?family? setting).

Simply because when Wusta salat ends, Isha salat begins immediately after, thus its unlikely (impossible?) someone can reach home once beginning the Wusta salat with work colleagues/associates.

Re zulafun/zulfa

I re-checked Lane and he discusses how opinions differ on what is the plural of zulfa BUT he states zulaf(un) and zulfat can be the plural BUT seems to imply/state zulaf(un) is the preferred or more correct plural form. I think this can be cleared up by scrutinising the zlf in 11114 and seeing if it follows the expected grammatical form IF it was singular. Unfortunately, this is out my depth at the moment.

Wakas

zenje

Salaam all,

My problem with facing the qibla (Jerusalem), is - how does one do that? Let's say that I live in the U.S. and and whatever directional instruments I may require, I have. Let's also remember the world being round, or oval, whichever you wish. Explain.

Thanks

Tay

Peace All,

What do you make of this from QXP

7023 ----- MUSALLEEN are those who always follow the Divine System.
7024 ----- And in whose wealth and possessions is a known right.
7025 ----- For him who asks for help, and for him who is deprived.
7026 ----- (And Musalleen are) those who have conviction in the Day of Judgment. And hence, in the Law of Recompense.
7027 ----- And those who are fearful of their Lord?s Law of Requital.
7028 ----- (They know that) Verily, their Lord?s Law of Requital makes no exceptions, so that none can feel secure.
7029 ----- Those men and women who preserve their chastity.
7030 ----- They have intimate relations only with their spouses ? that is, those who are rightfully theirs through wedlock. For such relationship they are free of blame. (?Aw? = Or = That is = And. 235-7).
7031 But anyone who seeks beyond this, those are the transgressors.
7032 ----- (And Musalleen are those) who guard their trusts and duties assigned to them, and their pledges, as a shepherd guards his flock.
7033 ----- And those who are truthful in witness and stand by their testimony.
7034 ----- And those who consolidate and protect the Divine System.

Isn't this what salat is all about?
Why do we need to face any point on the planet?
Is Allah not omnipresent?

Peace,
Tay

ayman

Peace brother Layth,

I am merely stating what the history during the prophet's time looked like as I can summerize. The change of Qibla is a matter that can only be ordained by God and that was done once with Moses and once with Mohammed.

History is the subjective point of view of the historian. Your view that "God changes the Qibla since Jerusalem is off limits (due to Roman presence)" has no support in the great reading. Nothing in 2142-150 talks about the Romans or "al-masjid al-haram" being "off limits" as the reason for the change. In fact, the real reason of the change is quite clearly stated in 2143.

But let's not jump too much ahead of ourselves. What is your understanding of the meaning of "qiblat"/target/destination? How do you reconcile 1087 with 2144 in light of that understanding?

The Qibla also happens to be the same place where the Pilgrimage is held (Masjid Al-Haram). Thus, if the prophet and his companions could not hold the pilgrimage there any more, then it would make sence why the Qibla would be changed by God until the masjid alharam is once again open to them.

There are many people, including yourself, who cannot hold the pilgrimage to Jerusalem so what "qibla" do you face?

I leave Mecca as a proper name as well as that of Bakka.

This doesn't answer the question.

Brother, either your extended absence from the forum has made you a little rusty or I am not being clear and in this case I apologize and I repeat the question more clearly

Please explain why you take "makka" as a proper name despite the fact that the clear Arabic dictionary meaning perfectly fits in the context of 4824?

I know for a certainty that there was a Qibla change during the life of the prophet...I know for a certainty that it was a great test, except for those who believe...I know for a certainty that the Qibla was re-established to the Restricted Temple (masjid alharam).

But you don't seem to know for certain what "qibla" means. Hence, you are not able to answer my repeated question about reconciling 1087 and 2144.

Wherever does not mean 'whenever.' I think it is perfectly clear that you would face the Qibla 'wherever' you may be, but not 'whenever' that is.

Of course, wherever means "everywhere". In other words, logically it means "in all places". Is the place where you are sitting at your desk reading this post not "a place"? Since you are at a place that is part of "wherever/all places", are you facing the Temple as you understand the command or are you facing the computer screen?

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman.

ayman

Peace dear brother Zein,

My problem with facing the qibla (Jerusalem), is - how does one do that? Let's say that I live in the U.S. and and whatever directional instruments I may require, I have. Let's also remember the world being round, or oval, whichever you wish. Explain.

You are right brother. The indisputable fact is that because of the earth being spherical and rotating, once a structure is under the horizon, it is impossible to be facing it. Those who imagine that they are facing a Temple or a Shrine are actually facing completely random regions in outer space.

Another fact is that those who take "qiblat" in 2144 as a physical target will never follow each other's "qiblat"/target. Physically, even a small difference in angle is translated into a huge difference in distance when projected over large distances, so even people standing right next to each other and physically facing in the same direction are actually facing different random regions in outer space. Indeed, the sign in 2145 speaks the truth

And indeed if you gave every sign to those who were given the book, they will not follow your target and you are not going to follow their target and they will not follow each other's target, and if you follow their fantasies after what came to you from the knowledge, you would then be from the unjust.

Also, as a result of the earth's rotation, even the same person is facing a different physical direction every second and that is the truth. It is almost as if the signs in the earth, like the sign in 2144, were designed to make it impossible for anyone to logically claim that "qibla" in 2144 is a physical direction.

The "hu" in "inahu" in 2144 refers back to "al-masjid al-haram" and we clearly hear what "al-masjid al-haram" is.

We could see the rolling of your direction in the sky so we will turn you to a target that shall please you. So turn your direction towards the institution of hearing and obeying the forbidden and wherever you were so turn your directions towards it. And those who were given the book indeed know that IT IS THE TRUTH FROM THEIR LORD and The God is not unaware of what they do.

"al-masjid al-haram" IS THE TRUTH FROM THEIR LORD.

This is repeated in no uncertain terms in 2149.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman.

salgan

peace all

why face a certain direction physicaly and what are the benifits from this ?

How many people face mecca has this facing changed any thing in there life ?has this made them better people ?

why is the middle east so important to God ?

why did God only send prophets to the middle east why not europe ,the americas asia africa if God did why are they not mentioned .what is so important about the middle east.

whats so special with Quranic Arabic ?Even the people on this forum who study this day and night cant seem to understand it or even agree on things.

what chance have the rest who language is not arabic and have to rely on translations and dictioneries got. do we not deserve as humans to have something in our own mother tounges or does God not think we are not worthy as we are not from the middle east .

peace saleem

asdfjk

Peace all

it seems to me that the facing the qibla issue is only a problem if you are super-pedantic about angles and lines of sight.

The truth is that human vision does not function along a single straight line but encompasses more terrain the further one is from the target. This is why we can see stars that are thousands of lightyears apart in a single glance. Allah instructs us in 2144

".......shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.

the form of words is instructive - "set yourself towards" or "turn thy face in the direction of.." (YusufAli) - these seem to me to be general injunctions about looking in a certain direction not about checking for degree accurate alignments over thousands of miles.

I equally think this holds true for the argument that you cant face something which is over the horizon. Bro Zein - we don't have laser beams coming from our eyes. The view that you cant face towards something you cannot see seems to deny our human capacity of spatial projection and cognition - something the Almighty has made sure we develop from early infancy.

salaams

asdfjk

hafeez_kazi

peace all

QIBLAH

We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens; now shall We turn thee to a QIBLAH that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the MASJID AL HARAM; wherever ye are turn your faces in that direction. The people of the book know well that that is the TRUTH from their Lord nor is Allah unmindful of what they do. 2144

Some 1400 years before it was not possible to know the geographical location of any country, let alone the Masjid Al Haraam then how did the people started facing Masjid Al Haraam in Makkah immediately after the verse was revealed in Madina, which is roughly at a distance of about + 400kms. Did the people of Madina know where was the geographical location of Masjid Al Haraam? WAS THERE ANY MASJID IN MECCA WHEN THIS VERSE WAS REVEALED EXCEPT TEMPLES?

There is no command to face Masjid Al Haraam WHILE PRAYING and without prayers and without any apparent reason it seems nonsense to face (THE NON EXISTENT STRUCTURE AT THE TIME OF THE PROPHET) Masjid Al Haraam. The PRAYERS are a forged insertion in the verse by those who support the theory of RITUAL PRAYERS.

Verily! We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad's SAW) face towards the heaven then surely We shall turn you to Qiblah, which pleases you so turn your direction towards the Masjid Al Haraam and wheresoever you are turn your direction towards it. Surely those who were given the Book surely know that it is the TRUTH from their Lord and Allah is not unaware of what they do. 2144

IF MASJID AL HARAM WAS THE TRUTH THEN, WHY MOSES AND JESUS NEVER PRAYED FACING MECCA AND NEVER ENTERED MECCA. HOW COULD THEY DISOBEY ALLAH?

A PHYSICAL BUILDING IS NEVER THE TRUTH

Even if you were to bring to the people of the Book all the signs (together) they would not follow your Qiblah nor are you going to follow their Qiblah and they will not follow each other's Qiblah and verily if you follow their FANCIES After which has come to you with knowledge Then indeed in that case you would be undoubtedly of the tyrants. 2145

They will not follow our Qiblah (Masjid Al Haraam)
You shall not follow their Qiblah (JERUSALEM)

They will not follow your MASJID AL HARAAM is this logical?
You shall not follow their JERUSALEM is this logical?

How do we FOLLOW our MASJID AL HARAM

The dictionary meaning of FOLLOW go after, go along, go behind, ensue, chase, trail, understand, abide by, monitor, pursue, track, take as a guide, take interest,

Apply these meanings to QIBLAH i.e. to Masjid Al Haraam and see what sense it makes.

No one can follow a STONE house because it cannot GIVE guidance and it is neither a thing to UNDERSTAND. We cannot go after, behind, chase, ensue, trail, understand, abide by, monitor, or pursue the QIBLAH i.e. the PHYSICAL Masjid Al Haraam, which is LIFELESS.

WA- LA- 'IN ITTABAcTA AHWAA' -HUM MIN BAcDI MAA JAA'A -KA MIN AL- cILM 'INNA -KA 'IDHAN LA- MIN AZ.- Z.AALIMEN

And verily if you FOLLOW their FANCIES After which has come to you with knowledge Then indeed in that case you would be undoubtedly of the tyrants.

If we face Jerusalem while praying then we would be of the tyrants or oppressors.

OR

If we follow their FANCIES, then we would be tyrants or oppressors.

Which meaning makes sense?

Verily this is My Way leading straight follow it follow not (other) paths they will scatter you about from His (great) path thus doth He command you that ye may be righteous. 6153

It is not PRAYERS, it is not DIRECTION, it is not JERUSALEM or MAKKAH or KAABA or MASJID AL HARAM, but Allah is COMMANDING us to FOLLOW His straight way of life prescribed by Him AND TO OBSERVE THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE ACT OF COMPLIANCE

THUMMA JAcALNAA -KA cALAA SHAREcAH MIN AL- 'AMR FA- ITTABIc -HAA WA- LAA TATTABIc AHWAA' 'ALLADHENA LAA YAcLAMON 4518

Thereafter We provided to you the charter of the commands so follow them and follow not the FANCIES of those who know not. 4518

The Qiblah is the (SHAREAH AL AMR) the CHARTER of COMMANDMENTS of Allah along with the RESTRICTIONS to be followed, and not the STONE HOUSE or the AHWAA, the FANCIES of the disbelievers and hypocrites.

In contrast, to the SHAREAH, is the FANCIES of the people of the Book to which we are forbidden to follow and changing the prayer direction is not FANCY. Through Quran, Allah has given us a charter of commandments to be followed; the same commandments were given to the people of the Book but THEY DIFFERED ONLY AFTER

WA- 'AATAYNAA -HUM BAYYINAAT MIN AL- 'AMR FA- MAA IKHTALAFO 'ILLAA MIN BAcDI MAA JAA'A -HUM AL- cILM BAGHY(AN) BAYNA -HUM 'INNA RABB -KA YAQD.E BAYNA -HUM YAWM AL- QIYAAMAH FE MAA KAANO FE -HI YAKHTALIFON 4517

And We gave them clear proofs of the COMMANDS it was only after knowledge had been granted to them that they DIFFERED through insolent envy among themselves. Verily thy Lord will judge between them on the Day of Judgement as to those matters in which they set up differences. 4517

We are forbidden to follow their AHWAA, let us see what is AHWAA

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth confirming the scripture that came before it and guarding it in safety; so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed and follow not their FANCIES diverging from the truth that hath come to thee. To each among you We PROVIDED a CHARTER and a PROGRAMME. If Allah had so willed He would have made you a single people but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their (AHWAA) FANCIES, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah's will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil livers. 548/49

A clear charter and programme was given to all mankind to follow and forbidden to follow the fancies of those who disbelieve in the Quran and if followed there is every chance that the followers would be diverged from the truth and might be seduced from some part of the teachings/laws/commands of the Quran. Their Qiblah is fancy, which has the ability to seduce us from the teachings /laws / commands of the Quran and therefore their Qiblah is not Jerusalem similarly, our Qiblah cannot not be the stone house (Masjid Al Haraam) but the RESTRICTIONS OF THE ACT OF COMPLIANCE which has been provided to us along with the curriculum / programme.

To those whom We gave the Book know it as they know their CHILDREN and verily a party among them indeed hides the truth and they know it. 2146

What do we mean when Allah says that they know the Qiblah as they know their CHILDREN.

How do the parents know about their children and why not others? It is only because their children are near to them day and night and they very well know the GOOD and the BAD the POSITIVE and the NEGATIVE of their CHILDREN, in the same breadth the Masjid Al Haram must also be very near to the people of the book to know it.

DICTIONARY MEANING OF" KNOW"
Recognise; identify; understand; to be familiar with; to be acquainted with; to be able to distinguish;

The people of the Book who were not from the Arab World, would have never recognised, identified, or distinguished the MASJID Al HARAM because they never saw it and it is not possible to be familiar or acquainted with the MASJID Al HARAM because is not customary, informal or household or well known. The truth was such that not even one single Jew or Christian ever visited Mecca in search of the MASJID Al HARAM nor did they pray facing MASJID Al HARAM. What type of truth is it?

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO NOTE IS THAT, THE MASJID WAS NON EXISTENT BEFORE THE ADVENT OF THE PROPHET

The TRUTH is that the people of the Book knew of the restrictions of the Act of compliance and were familiar with it because their life was ruled by it.

AL- H.AQQ MIN RABB -KA FA- LAA TAKONANNA MIN AL- MUMTAREN 2147

(This is) The TRUTH from your Lord, So be you not one of those who doubt. 2147

The TRUTH is that neither MOSES nor JESUS ever ENTERED Mecca nor faced MASJID AL HARAM while praying nor performed HAJJ and UMRAH in Mecca.

The Qiblah (RESTRICTIONS OF THE ACT OF COMPLIANCE) is the truth from Allah and not the turning of prayer direction.

Turning of the directions towards the Masjid Al Haraam is the truth from the Lord and not the turning of the direction of prayer. The WRONG DOERS would never wish to follow the way of Allah, the RESTRICTIONS of the Act of compliance, the SHAREAH of Allah, the CHARTER of COMMANDS but they will FOLLOW their own passion and DESIRES. The TURNING of the prayer DIRECTION will never give RISE TO ARGUMENTS. Arguments ONLY ARISE when there are RESTRICTIONS.

From the above verses there arises many questions, which cannot be answered

Is Qiblah the Kaabah? (Not mentioned in any verse)

Is Qiblah a prayer direction? (Not mentioned in any verse)

Is Qiblah located in Makkah? (Not mentioned in any verse)

Is Qiblah to be followed? (How to follow a LIFELESS physical Masjid Al Haraam)

Did the People of the Book and the Muslims (EARLIER) faced Jerusalem while praying? (Not
mentioned in any verse)

Did Allah order Muslims to face Kaabah while praying? (Not mentioned in any verse)

Did Allah order Muslims to face Masjid Al Haram while praying? (Not mentioned in any verse)

If Jerusalem was a Qiblah and a prayer direction, then how in EGYPT, the houses of the people of Moses, became their Qiblah.

Are the houses in Egypt the THIRD and many among other QIBLAHAS?

What is the meaning of QIBLAH Makkah - Kaabah - Masjid Al Haraam - Prayer direction - Place of worship (the translator's meaning)

OR

Ideal, focus of attention, cynosure, target of all eyes, goal sought after, object of widespread interest (The Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic)

Nay, but those who do WRONG follow their own FANCIES without knowledge, then who will guide him whom Allah has sent astray? And for such there will be no helpers. 3029

Is he who is on a clear proof from his Lord, like those for whom their evil deeds that they do are beautified for them, while they follow their own (AHWAA') FANCIES (evil desires)? 4714

RESTRICTIONS OF THE ACT OF COMPLIANCE (MASJID AL HARAAM)

There are commandments of Allah in the Quran to be obeyed followed and executed through (Masjid) Acts of Compliance and along with the Masjid there are some (Haram) restrictions attached to it.

The command to pray (not ritual prayers) with restrictions (443)
The command to fast with restrictions (2184)
The command to fight the disbelievers with restrictions (2190 2217 & 490)
The command to marry with restrictions. (surah Nissaa)
The command to approach wives with restrictions (2222)
The command to divorce with restrictions (surah Baqarah)
The command to marry second wife with restriction (420)
The command to look after orphans with restrictions (42 46 6152 1734 )
The command to perform Hajj with restrictions (2197)
The command to offer charity with restrictions (2567)
The command to obey parents with restrictions (298 31;15)
The command to take WALEY with restrictions (551 557 923)
The command to learn with restrictions (1736)
The command to say with restriction (612/3)
The command to hunt with restrictions (51 595/96)
The command to eat with restrictions (52 587)

We surrender to the commands of Allah (sujud) and execute them through the ACT OF COMPLIANCE (Masjid) and observe restrictions (Masjid Al Haram)

thanks

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

Very good arguments. I think the strongest proof against a physical place being a "qibla" is that we are told WHEREVER we are to face it. We cannot face a physical place at all times and still carry out the different disciplines listed in this reading. Further, the people on the opposite side of the world from this structure would have to lie face down on the ground in order to have a chance at facing it (through the center of the earth).

But, it is possible for the humble and patient perserverers to maintain the characteristics of one who submits to the restrictions that are to be heard and obeyed.

Layth

Peace Ayman,

History is the subjective point of view of the historian. Your view that "God changes the Qibla since Jerusalem is off limits (due to Roman presence)" has no support in the great reading. Nothing in 2142-150 talks about the Romans or "al-masjid al-haram" being "off limits" as the reason for the change. In fact, the real reason of the change is quite clearly stated in 2143.

I stated that this was ?my? understanding based on a sequential walkthrough the Quranic history.

Here are some facts I can ascertain

The prophet and his companions were at one point being ?blocked? from the Restricted Temple (2225)
Rome would be fought twice and defeated on the 2nd time (302-5)
The 2nd battle with Rome would take place at or around the area of the Dead Sea ? lowest point (303)
The Restricted Temple was re-taken by an army of the prophet (4827)

All this and more can be pieced together from various verses if studied as one story.

But let's not jump too much ahead of ourselves. What is your understanding of the meaning of "qiblat"/target/destination? How do you reconcile 1087 with 2144 in light of that understanding?

Qibla = Focal Point.

It is to me an orientation that people would follow (both physically and spiritually). In 1087 Moses was given leave with his people to divert from the central system that would be gained from following the original Qibla, due to the fact that they were on the run and being pursued by Pharaoh. How and what this deviation was is not a subject I have studied.

There are many people, including yourself, who cannot hold the pilgrimage to Jerusalem so what "qibla" do you face?

According to 2144, I will always hold my Qibla to be the Restricted Temple. As for pilgrimage, exemption is given if you are ?unable? to attend (396-97)

Quote
I leave Mecca as a proper name as well as that of Bakka.

This doesn't answer the question.

Brother, either your extended absence from the forum has made you a little rusty or I am not being clear and in this case I apologize and I repeat the question more clearly

Please explain why you take "makka" as a proper name despite the fact that the clear Arabic dictionary meaning perfectly fits in the context of 4824?

I have the option to ?chose? between treating it as a name, or a meaning to that name. I do not see what being ?rusty? has to do with this choice?

Quote
I know for a certainty that there was a Qibla change during the life of the prophet...I know for a certainty that it was a great test, except for those who believe...I know for a certainty that the Qibla was re-established to the Restricted Temple (masjid alharam).

But you don't seem to know for certain what "qibla" means. Hence, you are not able to answer my repeated question about reconciling 1087 and 2144.

I have stated many times what Qibla means. I also have stated above my understanding of 1087. As for 2144, I am not aware of Jews or Christians taking Jerusalem as their focal point, even in Salat (if you can call what they do Salat).

Quote
Wherever does not mean 'whenever.' I think it is perfectly clear that you would face the Qibla 'wherever' you may be, but not 'whenever' that is.

Of course, wherever means "everywhere". In other words, logically it means "in all places". Is the place where you are sitting at your desk reading this post not "a place"? Since you are at a place that is part of "wherever/all places", are you facing the Temple as you understand the command or are you facing the computer screen?

Salat is decreed for the believers at specific/fixed times. Thus, wherever you may be, you will face the Qibla only when it is time to do so (hence wherever and whenever are not the same). I am not performing Salat as I write this post, thus I am not in need to face the Qibla?However, when it is time, then even from the location I am in, I will face the Restricted Temple.

Layth

Peace Wakas,

I dont understand your response to my point 1.

You asked if 2238 was translated as ?middle? then there has to be a reason that this Salat is highlighted over others as needing to be ?especially? preserved.

My response was that there is indeed an extra need to preserve the ?middle? Salat as that is the one with the highest probability of being neglected due to trade/business/work (I quoted the only example of what appears to be a Salat time missed in 3830-33 where Solomon is preoccupied by horses and forgets that it is time to ?remember? God ? ?rememberance? being a key element of Salat as per 2014).

To say that 2239 speaks of all three is a precarious assumption.

Precarious = Shaky, unstable, uncertain!

Pleas re-read your question

If "middle" is chosen then 2239 doesn't fit well, because it implies we are allowed to do salat on the move, if so, which one is it talking about, prayers in general or just the middle prayer?

You are saying that 2238 establishes only ?middle? (wusta) as the subject matter for which 2239 is speaking. I have responded that this is not correct since 2238 opens with all the Salats (Salawaat) making that the subject matter for 2239.

I am somewhat confused by your time-ranges for all three. I think this is what you're saying

Fajr - one end of daylight (how long is this salat, do you have a time-range, if so, where do you get it from?)

This is defined by both the term ?end/edge of the day? and by the word ?Fajr?. In Arabic, once the sun comes-up, then you are not able to call such a time ?Fajr? (I believe the same applies to the English word ?Dawn?).

Wusta - when the sun begins to decline past the horizon until it disappears

Yes.

Isha - by your own translation it seems you have ended up with a salat time (Wusta) crossing another salat time (Isha)

You shall hold the Salat at the waning* of the sun, until the darkness of the night...

dulook = rubbing/setting

To explain this, you would be forced to translate 'dulook-as-shams' as 'sunset' (which is fair enough from Lane) but in doing so, will make the following point in your article invalid

Quote
2. Middle Salat is being done as the person is ending his/her workday, and is therefore most likely to perform this Salat in a group with work colleagues or associates ? Quran 3830-33, 629 (thus giving the middle Salat a ?community? setting).

Evening Salat is being done as the person has reached home, and is therefore most likely to perform this Salat with spouse, children, and dependants ? Quran 20132 (thus giving the evening Salat a ?family? setting).

Simply because when Wusta salat ends, Isha salat begins immediately after, thus its unlikely (impossible?) someone can reach home once beginning the Wusta salat with work colleagues/associates.

The problem you raise and for which the slight overlapping may be unintentionally implied is the choice of translation for the word ?dhulook? in 1778 implying near sunset.

For "isha", the timing is derived from 11114 (the closer/near part of the night) as well as the word "Isha". In Arabic this word defines the first part/section of the night (the best fit would be "evening" in English).

Thus, the three Salat times are

Dawn
Dusk
Evening

Based on this difference, I have timed the difference to be an hour or so between ?middle/dusk? and ?Isha?.

This is more than ample time for a person to be home.

Re zulafun/zulfa

I re-checked Lane and he discusses how opinions differ on what is the plural of zulfa BUT he states zulaf(un) and zulfat can be the plural BUT seems to imply/state zulaf(un) is the preferred or more correct plural form. I think this can be cleared up by scrutinising the zlf in 11114 and seeing if it follows the expected grammatical form IF it was singular. Unfortunately, this is out my depth at the moment.

I did check this from my own source when you raised the point and found ?zulufan? to be singular. I think your above paragraph presents the various opinions quite clearly.

ayman

Peace brother Layth,

I stated that this was ?my? understanding based on a sequential walkthrough the Quranic history.

Here are some facts I can ascertain

The prophet and his companions were at one point being ?blocked? from the Restricted Temple (2225)
Rome would be fought twice and defeated on the 2nd time (302-5)
The 2nd battle with Rome would take place at or around the area of the Dead Sea ? lowest point (303)
The Restricted Temple was re-taken by an army of the prophet (4827)

All this and more can be pieced together from various verses if studied as one story.

OK brother. Now nothing in what you said here is related to the change of "qibla". So do you now see that the clear reason for the change was given in 2143 and that the reason that you gave is invalid and hence retract this earlier statement of yours

"God changes the Qibla since Jerusalem is off limits (due to Roman presence)."

Qibla = Focal Point.

It is to me an orientation that people would follow (both physically and spiritually).

Please explain how people would follow the orientation of a Temple or any stone building spiritually.

In 1087 Moses was given leave with his people to divert from the central system that would be gained from following the original Qibla, due to the fact that they were on the run and being pursued by Pharaoh.

What "central system" can be gained from imagining to be physically pointing one's face to any stone building?

Moreover, if "qibla" had been a physical direction for "salat" as you say, then, because houses/"biyut" is plural, 1087 would be telling Moses to point their faces in random directions.

How and what this deviation was is not a subject I have studied.

Brother, I suggest that you study it before making any strong conclusions about "qibla" as you are doing here.

According to 2144, I will always hold my Qibla to be the Restricted Temple. As for pilgrimage, exemption is given if you are ?unable? to attend (396-97)

So what is this Restricted Temple? Is it the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem? Or is it just the Rock?

Moreover, how did you come to the conclusion that "masjid" means Temple? Is there any evidence that "pre-quranic" Arab Jews or Pagans called their temples "masajid"? I haven't seen "temple" as a dictionary meaning, so is this a dictionary meaning? If not a dictionary meaning, then how did you reach it based on the great reading when we are clearly told that "al-masjid al-haram" IS THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD in 2144 and 2149. How do you turn your physical direction towards the target of THE TRUTH FROM OUR LORD?

By the same token, do you interpret the "straight path" as a highway leading to Jerusalem? Why or why not?

I have the option to ?chose? between treating it as a name, or a meaning to that name. I do not see what being ?rusty? has to do with this choice?

Brother, this is so unlike you. You are the one who used to say that we should follow the most logical understanding. "Because I choose to" is not a logical argument and it is certainly a type of argument that I have never heard from you before.

Please logically explain the reason why you made that choice despite the fact that the clear Arabic dictionary meaning of the common noun "makkat" perfectly fits in the context of 4824.

I have stated many times what Qibla means. I also have stated above my understanding of 1087. As for 2144, I am not aware of Jews or Christians taking Jerusalem as their focal point, even in Salat (if you can call what they do Salat).

You have been misinformed. Facing Jerusalem during prayers is a Jewish tradition even today, as clear here

1 Kings 844
"When Your people go out to battle against their enemy, by whatever way You shall send them, and they pray to the Lord toward the city which You have chosen and the house which I have built for Your name"

The Jewish Talmud also has references to facing Jerusalem.

Tosefta Brachot 316
"Those in the north face the south, those in the south face the north, those in the east face the west and those in the west face the east so that all Israel prays toward one place"

Archaeological evidence confirms that synagogues from the "pre-quranic" and "post-quranic" era were roughly oriented to face Jerusalem. I am surprised that you, the one who always had interest in physical archeological evidence, do not know this. Please see, for example Avi-Yonah, M., Synagogue Architecture. In Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 15, New York Macmillan, 1971.

As you can see, what you are suggesting for us to do is in fact nothing more than a Talmudic tradition.

Moreover, evaluating this evidence in light of 2145 completely negates your argument for facing Jerusalem. Or are the Jews not amongst the people of the book as mentioned in 2145?

Salat is decreed for the believers at specific/fixed times. Thus, wherever you may be, you will face the Qibla only when it is time to do so (hence wherever and whenever are not the same). I am not performing Salat as I write this post, thus I am not in need to face the Qibla?

So now you are saying that verses 2142-150 apply only to "salat". We see the clear reference to a prayer direction in the Bible but not in the great reading. Can you please show me where it says that "qibla" is only related to "salat" or even where "salat" is mentioned in 2142-150?

However, when it is time, then even from the location I am in, I will face the Restricted Temple.

How do you face this Temple in Jerusalem? Or, more accurately, since in all likelihood it is below the horizon, how do you imagine to be facing it? Do you use the great circle method or do you use another method?

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman.