It is finaly out

MesMorial

Thanks Mes for your enlightnening views. You are right about laws, I mean they are all based on the ten commandments wich is an"Older scripture" acording to my belief.

By the way, I think that sunnis will be alright in next life. Ofcourse, the sinciere ones, so I disagree with you in that they are not following the system as a general statement.

Peace and Thanks

To clarify

I believe generally anyone who believes and does good whilst not judging others based on religion and does not advocate the killing of apostates will "definitely" be alright. I myself accept ahadith as examples (some of which are true, false, good or bad, contrary or not to the Qur'an) because I think that community cohesion is important in big things such as the sacred months (which are not in the Qur'an) (I say that because the ahadith confirm what I already thought, explained in the article "The Five Pillars of the Qur'an Alone". Now we ask are all traditional Muslims going to Hell according to those who follow different sacred months?) and the number of salaat (my reading of the Qur'an being confirmed again by ahadith). If there is no real reason not to take something as an example (whether people believe it is obligatory or not is no-one's business and people need to be satisfied with their own reason/system of faith and respect that) then for the sake of community cohesion I will follow that. For example I will pray like others as far as it does not contradict the Qur'an, but obviously there will be some differences. A Qur'an-alone Muslim cannot argue with that because the actual length of prayer is determined by how much of the Qur'an one chooses to recite whilst standing!

So in short my attitude to ahadith is that those which overtly support Shia and Sunni doctrines (or else are just misogynistic etc.) are false, distorted or taken out of context (not that I would need to worry if I knew the Qur'an well enough) whilst the others are examples or interpretations. After all it is natural that there would be ahadith to support different views because of the Final Sermon. Although there are a lot of weird ahadith, there are also a lot of nice ones which gives credence to the belief that the others are false or distorted. Notice I do not accept any ahadith as obligatory, but there is no reason for me (for example) to not circumambulate the Kaaba 7 times anyway so I would do so (though it could be argued you need only do it once). Besides, the religion was passed down so there is more evidence for that (and blatant denial of (i.e. aversion to) recorded history when it comes to such things is not constructive). Islam is really a personal thing but Muslims are kept together by the simple Message (in the Qur'an!) of prayer, charity and belief etc.. That is why death for apostasy and other nasty things are wrong. I talked about Jizya in the articles "Does Islam Intend to Conquer the World Part II" and "Picking Up the Pieces" to demonstrate that even if the traditions are true, the people who impose it must follow the message and be fair since the ahadith had their own context. E.g. I would argue that the Jizya if accepted as tax must be (since we have no more information from the Qur'an) a normal state tax the name of which derives from verse 929. There is ideally no problem except aggressive and judgemental Muslims (and the Islamophobes!). The problem is that Sunni Islam is based on two absolute sources of religion which gives some the self-righteousness to judge others (hence "sunniformity&quot and do what they choose regardless of the Qur'an. That seed is why am I going through every relevant ayah of the Qur'an (though the debate is now foregone for me).

The other reason that I recommend a moderate and open attitude from all (besides that it is a part of truly appreciating one's religion) is that overcoming one's insecurity will mean that people will not feel they must defend their own opinions and points of view by attacking others. When someone says something, someone reacts and eventually both accuse each other of being bigots. Remember that no-one knows everything, and as long as one tries their best and follows what they think is right (if this causes inevitable conflict then it must be supported by the Qur'an) then InshaAllah that will be fine.

Peace.

siki

Edip salam,

You are the best , and one of the very few , that i have been truly impressed with. Well done bravo

siki

Edip_Yuksel

However, I may clarify the specific point, the charge with the use of word made from Root Qaaf Ta Laam is only on the Jews. And they still keep doing it as charged in Qur'aan. No other nation or community has been alleged this charge.

One of the popular logical fallacies. The Quran NEVER states "ONLY" for Jews on this issue. Just because the Quran gives only ONE example, that does not make it the ONLY

The Quran mentions banana, grape and pomagrade, but it does not mention orange. Thus there is no such a fruit called orange.
The Quran mentions messengers that were sent to Arabs and Jews, but not to Chinese and Greek. Thus, Chinese and Greek did not receive messengers.

I recommend brother Mazhar to study logic and learn about common logical fallacies. I have learned that many of our futile arguments are caused by lack of critical thinking and lack of skills in recognizing logical fallacies.

Peace,
Edip

Edip_Yuksel

How can I delete this one?
Somehow it posted a duplicate message.
Peace,
Edip

mmkhan

Salaam Layth,

Salam Mazhar,

Sorry to jump in on this thread, but where in the Quran does it say that messengers can't get killed?

Prophets and messengers were murdered on several occations (3183, 291).

I think you are mixing between God's victory (which is guaranteed to His followers) and mortality.

Sorry to interfere in here. I could not find any aayat in AlQuraan that says about murdering or killing THE MESSENGER(S).

291 is about "Ambiyaa Allah"

3183 is about "Rasool" NOT "Al + Rasool" i.e., The Messenger because AlRasool are protected by Allah.

567

567 O The Messenger, deliver what was sent down to you from your Lord, and if you do not then you have not delivered His message; and Allah will protect you from the people. And Allah does not guide the rejecting people.

AlRasool or Rasool Allah are the one who is appointed by Allah

Rasool is self-made and not appointed by Allah

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Mazhar

One of the popular logical fallacies. The Quran NEVER states "ONLY" for Jews on this issue. Just because the Quran gives only ONE example, that does not make it the ONLY

The Quran mentions banana, grape and pomagrade, but it does not mention orange. Thus there is no such a fruit called orange.
The Quran mentions messengers that were sent to Arabs and Jews, but not to Chinese and Greek. Thus, Chinese and Greek did not receive messengers.

I recommend brother Mazhar to study logic and learn about common logical fallacies. I have learned that many of our futile arguments are caused by lack of critical thinking and lack of skills in recognizing logical fallacies.

Peace,
Edip

Dear, but which book calls it logic what you have said?

A specific charge when alleged against a particular nation is never generalized to consider it or presume it to be against all. A charge of misconduct can be corelated to description of fruits in some logic theory, I have yet to find it.

MesMorial

(A useless note)

"And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an messenger comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said We do affirm. He said Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you."

Qur'an 381

I always wondered how or why the Prophets would have to help a Messenger (not denying!). I thought it might mean enjoining their people to follow the Messenger or Message so that later generations would. Anyway if Khalifa was supposed to be aided then it would be unexpected that he should die. He did what he did but then he was killed. He would not have been killed had he not already accomplished "what he was meant to" (assuming for a moment that he was a Messenger). He did not need assistance from the other Prophets to do what he did (since it is Allah (SWT) that makes events happen). He was not assisted much by traditional Muslims and the few that assisted him were only those who accepted his claims.

This is another point about which we probably should not harbour an absolute conclusion. Khalifa appears shady but then I never met him personally!

Peace.

Asana

Peace MesMorial

Thanks for the reply.
I?m a submitter and do not testify the second part of the traditionalist Shahada.

If you meant Khalifiti by Submitters in message 26 then you should know you were wrong.Submitters are submitters .

Asana

MesMorial

Peace MesMorial

Thanks for the reply.
I?m a submitter and do not testify the second part of the traditionalist Shahada.

If you meant Khalifiti by Submitters in message 26 then you should know you were wrong.Submitters are submitters .

Asana

Peace Asana.

I was only talking about the Shahada but I mention "Khalifite" since it defines the particular interpretation/belief that you suggested you hold. I assume in one use of the word that you mean submitters as in Muslims and not "Submitters" as defined by your interpretation (by which I identify it as "Khalifite" whether you are correct or not). I consider myself a Muslim also because I do my best to submit to the Message without attempting to define the ins-and-outs of everything. It is not necessarily superior but then it is the natural way for me. We can get so far with the interpretation, but still it is as if we knew nothing. I still offer my recommendation but nevertheless all the best.

Peace to you.

nimnimak_11

Salaam Layth,

Sorry to interfere in here. I could not find any aayat in AlQuraan that says about murdering or killing THE MESSENGER(S).

291 is about "Ambiyaa Allah"

3183 is about "Rasool" NOT "Al + Rasool" i.e., The Messenger because AlRasool are protected by Allah.

567

567 O The Messenger, deliver what was sent down to you from your Lord, and if you do not then you have not delivered His message; and Allah will protect you from the people. And Allah does not guide the rejecting people.

AlRasool or Rasool Allah are the one who is appointed by Allah

Rasool is self-made and not appointed by Allah

May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Peace MMKhan

Is there a verse that says messengers cannot get killed specifically? Because everyone dies somehow. Protection from the people does not entail protection from assisination. It could be protection untill message delivered for exmaple or from people trying to prevent the deliverence of the message. If Rashad was the messenger, he did discover and deliver something important (message wise)

Peace

mmkhan

Salaam nimnimak_11,

Is there a verse that says messengers cannot get killed specifically?

I don't know any such aayat bro, and it is not required cause the aayat quoted includes it.

Because everyone dies somehow. Protection from the people does not entail protection from assisination. It could be protection untill message delivered for exmaple or from people trying to prevent the deliverence of the message. If Rashad was the messenger, he did discover and deliver something important (message wise)

I could not find such explanation of yours in the aayat 567. How did you get to such conclusion, can you please explain for us here?

When Allah said "Hurrimat 'alaikum almaitatu..." 53 that means "Forbidden to you is that which is dead...". What and which dead are haraam?

Dead goat, dead sheep, dead cow, dead camel, dead fish, dead prawns, what? Who died in accident by a vehicle, died by beating it with stick, died by falling from ceiling, which one is haraam?

The aayat includes all, cause, the aayat was said without any condition. In same way, when Allah said "...Allah will protect you from the people..." in 567, it cover all areas, be it a murder or by poisoning or anything else.

May Allah guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

nimnimak_11