Super frustrated
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Salaam;
What do you define as hijab? I think technically it means modest dress, but I assume you mean covering of the hair? It just depends which way you look at it.
http//www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/dress%20code%20of%20Muslim%20women.htm
http//www.quran.org/library/books/19a.txt
(cache "Why do you force women to cover their hair"
Hypothetically if I were a Muslimah I would wear it firstly to let people know (the Qur'an does mention that Muslim women should be recognisable as Muslims) and secondly I would be proud to (but that is just my thinking and it depends upon whether you feel comfortable). I would never agree with veils or black sacks. Different people have different approaches to the Message.
Good luck in your journey.
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The fact that you are not a lady does not prevent you from wearing some headgear that will identify you as Muslim, if you think it is that important. Otherwise, the aya yu refer to why should believing women be recognized refers to a very specific sitution in which Muslims were being harassed by hypocrites, and the reason seems to be to preclude any excuses by hypocrites that they harassad believing women because they did not recognize them, so no justification to extend a device ment for a specific situation to a universal practice. Also we do not know what it was that was meant by the specific instruction, what makes anybody think that it was precisely what today is meant by hijab? Be it as it may, it was situation specific, and not general. No need for Muslim women to be recognized by anybody who is not a hypocrite of those particular events. Whe Muslim men bring forth this aya to uphold hijab they are in fact stating that they are hypocrites who harass believing women.
Salaam
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Can be frustrating but don't be too disheartened, people are emotional and attached to their beliefs even if they dunno why.
besides it's a workplace, they all gotta act professional. they'll get over your views and think of you as "one of them" or misguided or maybe even something else.. but everyone has their bias/prejudice etc.
sometimes it's good to keep things vague i.e. there are different interpretations, our purpose is beyond a head cover, my understanding is different to that but i respect different views.
When people identify themselves as muslim there is this assumption that you're a sunni/shia/ or not religious muslim. so people are inclined to want to make you be like them. so in ways they can come across as disparaging to defend their honour/self righteous status or maybe it's pride..
The state muslims are in now makes it difficult for others to be objective when listening to criticism or even conflicting views that arent mainstream but only time and exposure would change things? God knows.
how often are you going to see X? you prob won't see her much, cheer up sis )
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Peace all
So I was at work today with 2 coworkers, lets call them X and Y. X is a Muslim lady in her 50's, wears hijab, and is a very typical Muslim (apologize for the stereotyping), and Y is a young girl, same age as me.
X and Y were sitting in the conference room, and X was telling Y that her name (the real one) is found in many cultures including Muslim, at which point I happened to walk in by chance, and X says "K(me) will be familiar with it too". So Y goes to me "Are you muslim?" (She was not around in Ramadan, I think everyone else at work already knows Im muslim, coz they saw me not eating). So I say "yes". And Y goes "But you don't wear the hijab?" I say "no" Y says "Is it something you should do?" X pipes in "She should". I intercede "It depends on who you ask, if you would ask me, I would say no" Y asks me "What's the purpose of wearing it?". I say "Ask X, she is the one that wears it" X skirted the question, and never really told Y, why she wears the hijab.
While, I think I handled that nonsense pretty well, it still left me frustrated. I am not really interested in discussing any religion type subject with most of my co-workers, and I would never bring up anything of the sort myself. I have been there for a year, and with most of them, our relationship is about work, and I am not interested in talking to them about anything that is not work-related. The few I have identified as having more than a co-worker relationship, I already know who they are, and I am happy to talk with them about anything.
But I feel like I can't speak my mind when stuff comes up, because a) I want to keep the peace. b)Im selfish, and I am like what do I care what they think, I don't feel the need to "enlighten" anybody for lack of a better word. and c) I really don't want to discuss something so personal at work. But in the end, I mostly hold my tongue because of the repercussions I fear I will get from the few Muslim co-workers I work with, who will see me as insulting thier religion.
Its days like these, I wish I was back in my university-town where I never even came across any staunch sunni Muslims, let alone barely anyone that called themselves Muslim. Life was good then.
Grrrr
Kukumber.
I know the feeling and I think it's perfectly natural to feel frustrated in such a situation. Hate people who think they know better than you; no matter how you wanna rationalize their thinking, it's retarded.
It's really annoying when people think they know you, or consider you a part of their little establishment just based on appearances or the color of your skin or how you describe yourself as. This is why I find it better to avoid titles altogether 'muslim by definition' is my usual reply, with a general audience. With Muslims, I tend to avoid a discussion altogether; unless they are of an open mind. It's a waste of time. Tried and true.
Yeah in such a situation keeping quiet is the best approach because you'll have to be working with these people. You do have to speak up when they act all self-righteous and resort to blind cheap shots.
Religious kooks are everywhere, however. Less, I'd think in a university town, younger people tend to be far less judgmental, in my experience.
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Thanks for the replies all.
I don't intend this to be about the definition of "hijab", I only used that word because that is what X and Y used, but they were specifically talking about a head-covering.
I don't feel the need to wear a head-covering to identify myself as a muslim. If you feel that its important, Mesmorial, then I will respect your right to wear it. But I would never state that it is something that "should" be done. Personally i see no need for labels at all, but I am very attached to a "muslim" one as a response to others who may say out loud or think "She's not really a muslim". Its more like a defensive "Yes, I am, and I am not letting you hijack that label"
Anyways, I am not frustrated anymore. I find it kind of sad that X has probably been wearing it for 30+ years, and cannot give a succint reason for why. I will see her all the time Sarah, because I work with her, but I can deal with her. And she's not the worst, there is another one who had no qualms about calling me a sinner. But for sure, you gave me some good ideas, I might add something, like there are more important thngs, or different muslims have different interpretations. When I told Y to ask X the purpose of wearing the hijab, as she is the one that wears it, I said it very politely. I hope it didnt come across a cheap shot. And I don't know the reason for wearing it, and I don't want to answer for other people.
You put my frustrations in words very well together Jack. It is her thinkin she s better tha me, trying to group me in with her, when I am not interested. I am sure there will be a next time, and let's see how I handle that.
Kukumber
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The fact that you are not a lady does not prevent you from wearing some headgear that will identify you as Muslim, if you think it is that important. Otherwise, the aya yu refer to why should believing women be recognized refers to a very specific sitution in which Muslims were being harassed by hypocrites, and the reason seems to be to preclude any excuses by hypocrites that they harassad believing women because they did not recognize them, so no justification to extend a device ment for a specific situation to a universal practice. Also we do not know what it was that was meant by the specific instruction, what makes anybody think that it was precisely what today is meant by hijab? Be it as it may, it was situation specific, and not general. No need for Muslim women to be recognized by anybody who is not a hypocrite of those particular events. Whe Muslim men bring forth this aya to uphold hijab they are in fact stating that they are hypocrites who harass believing women.
Salaam
Many like to identify with beards etc. but for different purposes.
It is not a requirement for men to identify themselves via their clothing (nor do the verses from which the subject derives concern males). After all, there is a particular Muslim greeting. Nevertheless, by similar principles men should maintain a plain/modest appearance but I think the actual purpose of it applying to women is that men are ultimately the maintainers/protectors (434).
It is definitely preferable in purely religious terms (according to my and probably your understanding of the Qur'an) for women to cover their hair. If you disagree then you should read the verses
"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof..."
2431
Simply put, one's own hair does not have to be presented in a nice way. You can choose to cover it, and that is simply more in line with what is said (i.e. you are making the effort). If you choose not to, that is fine. It is not preferable to me either way, but if someone asked me my opinion I would say that according to the Qur'an it is certainly preferable. Hijab (as in looser clothing) is certainly mandated and then a headscarf without hijab is quite pointless. I do not see why context is so important given that the commandment of Sura 33 is no different to that in Sura 24. It seems to me simply a reminder with purpose, like the last Revelation concerning alcohol. Finally, can you prove that the context of the situation was not simply the context in which a lasting ruling was enforced (i.e. just because it came in a specific context, can you prove that it was confined to that?). It eliminates the excuse for non-Muslim (and Muslim) males to approach you for specific reasons, and if you are interacting with Muslims then the benefits need not be explained (as per your post).
Salaam.
P.S. By my logic those who wera burqas and veils are showing their devotion but none can force them.
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Thankyou for your opinions Mesmorial, but frankly, your opinion is one of many, and is irrelevant to my initial source of frustration. I am not interested in discussing hijab/head covering. You can start another topic on that, or add to one of many that already exist.
Knowing there are many opinions out there, it is very self-righteous of someone to state, I am correct, and to state to a third party that I should be doing something I am not, therefore stating I am inferior to her. Especially when she can't even answer to why she is correct.
I hope I have made myself clearer
Peace
Kukumber.
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Thankyou for your opinions Mesmorial, but frankly, your opinion is one of many, and is irrelevant to my initial source of frustration. I am not interested in discussing hijab/head covering. You can start another topic on that, or add to one of many that already exist.
Knowing there are many opinions out there, it is very self-righteous of someone to state, I am correct, and to state to a third party that I should be doing something I am not, therefore stating I am inferior to her. Especially when she can't even answer to why she is correct.
I hope I have made myself clearer
Peace
Kukumber.
It is lucky that my comment irrelevant to yours was addressed to huruf. I did mention "your" post though I forgot you were not Huruf Sorry.
Salaam
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I think ultimately what needs to be realised is that whatever a person wears, it should be personal and thus not affect the way they think/talk. E.g. women who wear burqas generally do not talk while those who wear headscarves will talk a bit more (to other Muslims) while those who do not cover their hair will talk a lot more. People should not let anything divide on a social level.
Peace.
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Many like to identify with beards etc. but for different purposes.
It is not a requirement for men to identify themselves via their clothing (nor do the verses from which the subject derives concern males). After all, there is a particular Muslim greeting. Nevertheless, by similar principles men should maintain a plain/modest appearance but I think the actual purpose of it applying to women is that men are ultimately the maintainers/protectors (434).
It is definitely preferable in purely religious terms (according to my and probably your understanding of the Qur'an) for women to cover their hair. If you disagree then you should read the verses
"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof..."
2431
Simply put, one's own hair does not have to be presented in a nice way. You can choose to cover it, and that is simply more in line with what is said (i.e. you are making the effort). If you choose not to, that is fine. It is not preferable to me either way, but if someone asked me my opinion I would say that according to the Qur'an it is certainly preferable. Hijab (as in looser clothing) is certainly mandated and then a headscarf without hijab is quite pointless. I do not see why context is so important given that the commandment of Sura 33 is no different to that in Sura 24. It seems to me simply a reminder with purpose, like the last Revelation concerning alcohol. Finally, can you prove that the context of the situation was not simply the context in which a lasting ruling was enforced (i.e. just because it came in a specific context, can you prove that it was confined to that?). It eliminates the excuse for non-Muslim (and Muslim) males to approach you for specific reasons, and if you are interacting with Muslims then the benefits need not be explained (as per your post).
Salaam.
P.S. By my logic those who wera burqas and veils are showing their devotion but none can force them.
Yes I disagree with you, and yes the Quran gives precisely de context in which that injunction to lengthen dress is given.
?Happy men! they do not need to bend over backwards in order not to be harassed.
And most certainly women can very well go around without covering their hair without being harassed, except where males feel scot free and self righteous to harass them and not suffer the consequences, as according to the Quran happened in that situation it depicts, and which seems to appear so ideal to you.
Salaam
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Yes I disagree with you, and yes the Quran gives precisely de context in which that injunction to lengthen dress is given.
?Happy men! they do not need to bend over backwards in order not to be harassed.
And most certainly women can very well go around without covering their hair without being harassed, except where males feel scot free and self righteous to harass them and not suffer the consequences, as according to the Quran happened in that situation it depicts, and which seems to appear so ideal to you.
Salaam
Dear Huruf;
Your first sentence does not address the arguments I gave, but rather you express your opinion forcefully whilst disregarding the fact that I was not taking the issue personally (such an act would be your problem).
Your second sentence suggests that the Qur?an is a slave to your ego. As I so clearly said, women were already obligated to wear hijab in Sura 24, and the verse in Sura 33 seems to be a reminder like the final revelation for alcohol (i.e. with a reason).
Finally I said it was definitely preferable to wear a head-covering for various reasons (including the fact that it gave more attention to the spirit of the Qur?an). I did not say you had to, and therefore your re-statement is redundant and silly. I suggest you consider your words and attitude with more care.
..Salaam.
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Kukumber,
I completely understand your frustration. Having people judge how good of a muslim you are simply by looking at you is super frustrating. I personally wouldn't let this lady get to you. I know it can be hard to overlook things like this but in the big picture it probably doesn't deserve your time.
This is the way I look at it... We all have a relationship with Allah. Each of our relationships with Allah are different from everyone else's just like your relationship with your mother is different than your relationship with your father. And furthermore, if you have siblings they have different relationships with your parents than you do. And probably nothing is wrong with these relationships.
So the lady you work with who wears hijab has a different relationship with Allah than you do. In her relationship she feels the need to wear hijab. This could be from being told she needs to do it or it gives her a personal connection to Allah. Whether or not you wear hijab should be guided by your relationship with Allah not because you feel inferior for not doing it or pressured into it.
This frustration is a great opportunity. From this you are questioning your outward expression of your relationship with Allah. So by going through this frustration you have the opportunity to draw close to Allah by praying and studying about it. If after your contemplation you don't feel compelled to wear hijab, then don't wear it. Use this energy and frustration as a vehicle to draw close to Allah. You will be a better person from this experience. So maybe once you have done all your thinking and contemplation and have made your decision, then go and thank this woman for this opportunity.
Just my possibly insane thoughts.....
JewishDude
peace Salam, Peace, Shalom peace -
Thanks for your thoughts JewishDude
However I have done all my thinking and contemplation in the past. I am soo beyond this issue... And I never judged her on her wearing a hijab, she judged me on me not wearing one. I couldn't care less what anyone is wearing, unless they were downright stark naked, then I wouldn't sit on a char they had just sat on (coz im a germophobe)
Peace Kukumber.
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Dear Huruf;
Your first sentence does not address the arguments I gave, but rather you express your opinion forcefully whilst disregarding the fact that I was not taking the issue personally (such an act would be your problem).
Your second sentence suggests that the Qur?an is a slave to your ego. As I so clearly said, women were already obligated to wear hijab in Sura 24, and the verse in Sura 33 seems to be a reminder like the final revelation for alcohol (i.e. with a reason).
Finally I said it was definitely preferable to wear a head-covering for various reasons (including the fact that it gave more attention to the spirit of the Qur?an). I did not say you had to, and therefore your re-statement is redundant and silly. I suggest you consider your words and attitude with more care.
..Salaam.
I wrote this
the aya yu refer to why should believing women be recognized refers to a very specific sitution in which Muslims were being harassed by hypocrites, and the reason seems to be to preclude any excuses by hypocrites that they harassad believing women because they did not recognize them, so no justification to extend a device ment for a specific situation to a universal practice. Also we do not know what it was that was meant by the specific instruction, what makes anybody think that it was precisely what today is meant by hijab? Be it as it may, it was situation specific, and not general. No need for Muslim women to be recognized by anybody who is not a hypocrite of those particular events. Whe Muslim men bring forth this aya to uphold hijab they are in fact stating that they are hypocrites who harass believing women.
The ayas before and after the aya in question in 33 are there in the Qur'an for anyone to see and verify. In 24.31 there is not talk about covering anybody's head. Also in this case anybody can verify it by him or herself.
Salaam
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Whether Sura 33 is contextual or not is irrelevant due to Sura 24. Hijab is a definite preference and men have a right to desire women to wear it (but not force and by "it" I mean modest clothing not the shawl). It is up to the husband and wife to sort such issues before marriage.
I would like to revise my stance on the burqa
"And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof..."
2431
So covering yourself completely is not Qur?anic because you should leave uncovered ?what is apparent? (i.e. face). It is one?s choice whether or not they cover the hair, but I think that it fulfils the spirit of the Qur?an (but I have no personal preference because that is not my business). If Sunni scholars want to say that only the eyes are allowed to be shown, they should be able to answer these questions
If women are encouraged to cover mouth and nose, then why should they be allowed to even speak (after all, their voices will become apparent!)? Furthermore, which ayah says that women have to cover their face? What is the point of women ?casting down their looks? if their face is to be covered (since they are already being modest)?
Peace.
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@ Kukumbur - awww ) hug for you. It's hard isn't it. I don't like having ''those'' convos either.
Hypothetically if I were a Muslimah I would wear it firstly to let people know (the Qur'an does mention that Muslim women should be recognisable as Muslims) and secondly I would be proud to (but that is just my thinking and it depends upon whether you feel comfortable). I would never agree with veils or black sacks. Different people have different approaches to the Message.
Good luck in your journey.Yeah I like wearing it for identification. I am not proud of it though - it brings me abuse and also many have assumed that I am very fundamentalist. I did wear abaya only for a long time. THough that was mainly due to husband wanting me too.
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Thanks for your thoughts JewishDude
However I have done all my thinking and contemplation in the past. I am soo beyond this issue... And I never judged her on her wearing a hijab, she judged me on me not wearing one. I couldn't care less what anyone is wearing, unless they were downright stark naked, then I wouldn't sit on a char they had just sat on (coz im a germophobe)
Peace Kukumber.
I always think of that when it comes to nudists too. I know they have group outings and stuff - do they take a towel with them the whole day so they have something to sit on?? Don't anyone answer if you do know, cos really I'm happy in my ignorance.
