Singular events yet multiple,accurances.
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Peace be upon you MZ,
My understanding is as follows, All of these stories we cannot verify if there was really a singular event, so we take them as moral lessons.
The God repeats these stories from different angles so that we can get a good understanding of the lessons contained therein.
Each of us will come across these particular circumstances in our lives at one or more of these "angles" by which they are repeated to us.
Yes, singular events (symbolically) , but experienced by all of mankind.
Regarding "hajj", I take it as the use of the God's argument against the people in the manner of a debate. We should all be partaking in this debate.
That is my understanding.
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Salaams Br.
I understand perfectly your view ,my view was basically similer to your view.Until about a year ago talking to certain people they used to crop up the point you have to see,look to the context of the orders or the story to understand (you can say the moral lesson - within the story).I know you said well there arn't any direct commands to the prophet ,well however we agree on a lot of the major points ,here i believe we must dissagree.The quran Also embodies direct orders to The Prophet and is taught by lessons of the prophets past by their stories.And Allah gives orders for the people in general as well.And these orders where for the prophet and his people specifically,and for that time period.But however anybody can and should take the benefit from it,Although i beleive most people in the world have got it know through other ways.
In this case of the haj,it was an order to the prophet for the Kafireen in Sura 9 (Essentially Obey the law and don't be thiefs ,robbers,infidals,child killers ,evictors and essentially swear to uphold the law,e.t.c),at the beginning and the said consequances if they didn't carry it out and the alternative actions the prophet and his people where supposed to carry out ,if the Kafireen didn't comply, are also revealled by the Allamighty.
IN Sura 2189,196,197.
It is the exact same event depicted in surra 9 -All you need to do is look at the context,or rather the ayats suroundings those i have pointed at.
I'll wait to hear from you idolfree after your search of the ayats (surrounding)- not before.
My Salaam.
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Peace be upon you MZ,
I understand perfectly your view ,my view was basically similer to your view.Until about a year ago talking to certain people they used to crop up the point you have to see,look to the context of the orders or the story to understand (you can say the moral lesson - within the story).
I always try to look at the context.
I know you said well there arn't any direct commands to the prophet ,well however we agree on a lot of the major points ,here i believe we must dissagree.
It is fine to disagree, that is why there is need for debate, because people disagree. Lets continue until we exhaust the subject. I think the topic you brought up backs up my understanding.
The quran Also embodies direct orders to The Prophet and is taught by lessons of the prophets past by their stories.And Allah gives orders for the people in general as well.And these orders where for the prophet and his people specifically,and for that time period.But however anybody can and should take the benefit from it,Although i beleive most people in the world have got it know through other ways.
You are stating that there are orders for a man named "muhammad/ahmad" and his people, then there are orders for the people that come afterwards, but from the same message? Why not send a new "prophet"?
In this case of the haj,it was an order to the prophet for the Kafireen in Sura 9 (Essentially Obey the law and don't be thiefs ,robbers,infidals,child killers ,evictors and essentially swear to uphold the law,e.t.c),at the beginning and the said consequances if they didn't carry it out and the alternative actions the prophet and his people where supposed to carry out ,if the Kafireen didn't comply, are also revealled by the Allamighty.
IN Sura 2189,196,197.
I disagree. Let me go through the verses.
- They ask YOU concerning the Phases of the Moon, Say They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in men, and for the debate. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors And fear Allah. That ye may prosper.
*** If someone asks YOU MZ, the one reading this message, about the phases of the moon, what will you tell them? ******
- Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
**We are all to fight in the God's path, The God has told us never to agress, so we know anything we do is self defense, there is plenty of oppressive aggression going on in this world. Is it only for a man named "muhammad/ahmad" 1400 years ago to tell us to go fight for justice? Or can any of us step up to the plate and be a leader, like Abraham who was "muhammads" example?
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And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah, and know that Allah Is strict in punishment.
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For Hajj are the months well known. If any one undertakes that duty therein, Let there be no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do, (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (With you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, o ye that are wise.
*** What is it in these verses that prevents YOU Mz, or ME from doing this?****
It is the exact same event depicted in surra 9 -All you need to do is look at the context,or rather the ayats suroundings those i have pointed at.
I'll wait to hear from you idolfree after your search of the ayats (surrounding)- not before.
I have listed the verses above.
Chapter 9 I see no difference.
The examples of "hajj" debating are the stories of the prophets themselves. If hajj is debating using the God's argument, then that is exactly what we are reading as examples.
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Salaams idolfree,
we can't apply orders given to the prophet on how he was to deal with them(the kufar then) because we don't have a similer situation now ,but in case if it ever happened ,I don't think the world will let us apply such brut force.you missed
2191
And kill them wherever you find them,and turn them out from where they have turned you out,...........,and fight not with them at masjid al haram,
This ayat is saying something about when it was ,and that was to me when the killing in the world was rife(everywhere).in the middle east anyway.
I am telling you idolfree if you keep beliveing the traditional translation and keep thinking it is applying to me and you currently ,we will remain daft.These where orders given to the prophet ,mind you we are obliged to learn as we beleive these where from Allah.
Secondly your ayat to do with phases of the moon is blown out of proportion -to me it is mistranslated fully.
I checked this some time back
2188
And do not consume your money between unjustly by bribing the decision makers so that you may consume a part of the other peoples money unjustly while you know.2189
They ask you of such owners(Alahilte),Say thou may prepare(HEE) a fixed time(MOWAQEET )for people and the haj and it no virtue......(Sorry but to me ,there wern't any moon phases here about)
Br. you need to check with respect to the surrounding verses to get a fuller picture.
Salaams.
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Peace be upon you MZ,
Thank you for being patient with me as we discuss this.
Salaams idolfree,
we can't apply orders given to the prophet on how he was to deal with them(the kufar then) because we don't have a similer situation now ,but in case if it ever happened ,I don't think the world will let us apply such brut force.From my observations, we have the same situation now, just like all generations experience the same cycles. What "brute force" are you refering to? When answering this question, keep in mind that those who submit are only allowed to "fight" in self defense.
you missed
2191
And kill them wherever you find them,and turn them out from where they have turned you out,...........,and fight not with them at masjid al haram,
This ayat is saying something about when it was ,and that was to me when the killing in the world was rife(everywhere).in the middle east anyway.
So you think a man named "ahmad/muhammad" went around killing people? I read that verse thatwe are to defend ourselves at all times, but...
(2192) So if they ended/stopped , so that The God (is) forgiving, most merciful
I am telling you idolfree if you keep beliveing the traditional translation and keep thinking it is applying to me and you currently ,we will remain daft.These where orders given to the prophet ,mind you we are obliged to learn as we beleive these where from Allah.
So we are not to follow verse 2191?
Secondly your ayat to do with phases of the moon is blown out of proportion -to me it is mistranslated fully.
I checked this some time back
2188
And do not consume your money between unjustly by bribing the decision makers so that you may consume a part of the other peoples money unjustly while you know.2189
They ask you of such owners(Alahilte),Say thou may prepare(HEE) a fixed time(MOWAQEET )for people and the haj and it no virtue......(Sorry but to me ,there wern't any moon phases here about)
Br. you need to check with respect to the surrounding verses to get a fuller picture.
I would like to talk more about the translation, my point was that WHATEVER is being asked in 2189, what will you SAY if you are asked the same question?
Please e-mail me in private, or start another thread so we can discuss Al - Alahilte, I would like to hear more about that.
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Peace brother MZ,
Is The Hajj a single event that accured just once in the lifetime of the prophet,that in surra 9,but is acctually described in a number of suras but mind you the Translaters/or saudies do mistranslate somewhat to achieve or show their point of view,and i think where ever else it is described it could be slightly mistranslated.2189,2196,2197,93.
And in the case of Abraham it may be a single event again.
2158,397,2227.I don't know about Ibrahim or Ahmed.
In the case of Moses it was at least 8 or 10 (see 2827)
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman.
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Peace be upon you Ayman,
In the case of Moses it was at least 8 or 10 (see 2827)
Good observation
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Salaams ayman,idolfree,
maybe according to your understanding people visited makkat even then???
But i have a slightly different explanation.
2827
verily i want to wed to you one of daughters of mine these two on the condition that you serve me (TAAJOREE)
TAAJOREE - TRAFFICS ,TRADES
HEJAJIN=(repeated) vists(LETS TRY AGAIN)
verily i want to wed to you one of daughters of mine these two on the condition that YOU MAKE TRADES eight VISITS (repeated) but if you complete ten then it will ............
If you have some knowledge of sheep herding ,or you can find out,sheep are bread and looked aftered and sold once a year and that to me is what Allah is saying - eight -10 such trades.
My brother quran is easy to comprehend but humans have made the translations absurd-to an extent hence therefore it is somewhat difficult.
Thanks you.
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Peace be upon you MZ,
maybe according to your understanding people visited makkat even then???
I don't agree with the"mecca" pilgrimmage stuff. To me "hajj" is debating.
But i have a slightly different explanation.
2827
verily i want to wed to you one of daughters of mine these two on the condition that you serve me (TAAJOREE)
TAAJOREE - TRAFFICS ,TRADES
HEJAJIN=(repeated) vists(LETS TRY AGAIN)
verily i want to wed to you one of daughters of mine these two on the condition that YOU MAKE TRADES eight VISITS (repeated) but if you complete ten then it will ............
If you have some knowledge of sheep herding ,or you can find out,sheep are bread and looked aftered and sold once a year and that to me is what Allah is saying - eight -10 such trades.
Interesting. I will think over that.
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Peace brother MZ,
maybe according to your understanding people visited makkat even then???
There was no place called Makkat at the time 4824 was revealed. The word "makkat" is a common noun that has a clear dictionary meaning that fits in the context of 4824. Please look it up.
But i have a slightly different explanation.
2827
verily i want to wed to you one of daughters of mine these two on the condition that you serve me (TAAJOREE)
TAAJOREE - TRAFFICS ,TRADES
HEJAJIN=(repeated) vists(LETS TRY AGAIN)
verily i want to wed to you one of daughters of mine these two on the condition that YOU MAKE TRADES eight VISITS (repeated) but if you complete ten then it will ............
If you have some knowledge of sheep herding ,or you can find out,sheep are bread and looked aftered and sold once a year and that to me is what Allah is saying - eight -10 such trades.
I agree "hajj" is not some religious pilgrimage. It is more like the annual fair where people come for trade.
This is why "hajj" is a tool for calling to ALL people to come and remember The God. This is also why 2227 says "athin fi al-nas BI al-hajj" (publicize amongst people WITH "al-hajj") and not like 629 "nudy LI al-salat" (call TO the learning connection). The call is WITH "hajj" not TO "hajj".
My brother quran is easy to comprehend but humans have made the translations absurd-to an extent hence therefore it is somewhat difficult.
This is why the FM translation needs to be improved or a new translation is needed.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman.