Masturbation
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All are welcome to define "lewd" for self; the definition will not satisfy others. Couldn't it be considered wrong to (attempt to) impose personal values on others and pass them off as Divine Guidance? hmm
peace
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Just like Sis Rana, I was going to remain silent. But pretending this discussion isn?t happening will not do good to my conscience S.
I?ll put a disclaimer first that I neither encourage nor discourage masturbation. As a woman, I don?t feel the urge as much and as often as men do. Personally I can do without it (as the thoughts can be shunned by perving at awesome houses on sale or sweet treats online ). Anyway, I can understand that men experience much greater sexual urge than women, and hence masturbate. So I will not scream ?haraam, Brothers!? to all the masturbating men because I am ignorant of their biological and sexual design, and what they have to go through.
In an essence, it is true that masturbation is not singled out and explicitly forbidden in the Qur?an. That can be used as an argument allowing masturbation. On the other hand, the verses about lewd thoughts and guarding private parts can be used to argue against it. It?s up to your interpretation, I guess. Bear in mind however, that the absence of prohibition on certain acts does not mean that these acts are encouraged by the Qur?an. The Qur?an will be tedious if it mentions every single thing that we humans are not supposed to do. Instead, it gives us a broad guideline in which we exercise our wisdom to understand what we can or cannot do. Raping or owning slaves are not explicitly singled out and forbidden in the Qur?an (to my knowledge anyway). But we understand that raping falls under oppression and that owning slaves goes against the commandment to free the slaves, so we know what to do. Human flesh isn?t explicitly labelled as unlawful either, but we know that meat of dead animals, as well as slaughtering human beings is are forbidden (the only two ways we can eat human).
The issue of masturbation depends whether one views that it falls under lewd acts or not. If two parties have different views, then it?s a lost debate for eternity. It seems like it is going down that path anyway. That being said, I think it?s a matter of whether the positive outweighs the negative. If someone has a strong urge and cannot control their sexuality, perhaps masturbation will provide a quick solution, so they won?t engage in fornication, or worse, rape. If someone can control the urge by remembering God and doing social works, then leave masturbation. Anyway, a few things to consider regarding masturbation, well, from most men that I talk to, they do it while having indecent thoughts on women (or men if homosexual). Thoughts that tend to sexually objectify women. If you masturbate by having such thoughts, then consider if they are acceptable. By the way, thoughts or intentions do matter. If your perform righteous deeds with the wrong intentions, then they may not be accepted.
In conclusion, I won?t say masturbation is 100% prohibited, but there is a better alternative if you can control the sexual urge. Anyway, there are better things in life, and more crucial events in the world, to worry about. Masturbation is one of the those sitting at the bottom of the list that we should be arguing about ).
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Unless you take guard you private parts to mean abstain from masturbation, then i don't think there are any other verses that prohibit the act. Someone can do it as much as they want provided that they don't transgress. It may be transgressive for me to masturbate 5 times a week but not for someone else. I don't know i guess you just sense when your over indulging in something.
Personally i'm against the act but i can't see any explicit restrictions on the act. For sure I am against the use of the mind. To use someone you know in a fantasy or imagination is clearly wrong and worst than porn. What if that person you are lusting after does not want you to think of them in that way? Say you were some genius CGI designer and you could recreate an accurate represenetation of someone you have a crush on in some kind of sexual CGI clip. Would that be sinless in your opnion?
If someone does choose to masturbate, i reckon they should do so with a pure mind and a pure sight. Contrary to what some people claim (this is not doable) I know this is doable from experience. If someone feel it undoable, then i think if they completely abstain from masturbation say for like 3 weeks or more, then it will be the case that they will feel it doable
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In conclusion, I won?t say masturbation is 100% prohibited, but there is a better alternative if you can control the sexual urge.
So the verdict is the obvious fact that it is better not to if we don't absolutely have to (which was my original point). The attitude which leads one to scream that it is not haram because it is not explicitly in the Qur'an is why Sunnis still laugh at us. There is nevertheless no punishment, but like alcohol it does not make it halal!
As a side-note, raping slaves is prohibited in the Qur'an
?And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace??
2433
The context concerns slaves.
Peace.
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All are welcome to define "lewd" for self; the definition will not satisfy others. Couldn't it be considered wrong to (attempt to) impose personal values on others and pass them off as Divine Guidance? hmm
peace
All are welcome to define Allah (SWT) according to their whims. We can all also define any word the way we want and call ourselves Qur'an-alone Muslims. As I mentioned earlier, masturbation as a lewd act is when you do it when you don't have to, when you think about people with whom you are not married and when you think simple dirty thoughts and enjoy it. Adultery is forbidden so it is in the same category as a lewd act.
"And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way."
1732
Thinking about it voluntarily is enjoying and welcoming the act.
Finally, "imposing personal values" is quite separate from drawing obvious conclusions from obvious principles.
Peace.
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Give me the verse where masturbation is prohibited? IF it isnt prohibited in Quran its not haram, and i said once in 2 weeks, because i saw in a place scientists say so and naturally in wed dreams you get 1 in 2 weeks, and it can be done for pleasure its no harm to anyone and no reason to be haram.
Peace Kaiokenred
Is there any chance you can give a link for this so that i can check it out for my self? It sounds interesting. But if its something you came across along time ago and don't have the link in hand, then no worries.
I stopped masturbating for 2 years (though i am again doing it) and in total i think i had like a maximum of 5 or 6 wet dreams during that two year abstince (i was about 18 then). From experience i think once your body gets the discipline, the urge is lessened. So I think once someone goes past three months of abstinence, it becomes easy and you very rarely end up getting wet dreams. I masturbate like once a week or every two weeks as i feel that that is naturally best. Although i am reconsidering just being completely abstinent again....
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All are welcome to define Allah (SWT) according to their whims. We can all also define any word the way we want and call ourselves Qur'an-alone Muslims. As I mentioned earlier, masturbation as a lewd act is when you do it when you don't have to, when you think about people with whom you are not married and when you think simple dirty thoughts and enjoy it. Adultery is forbidden so it is in the same category as a lewd act.
"And go not nigh to fornication; surely it is an indecency and an evil way."
1732
Thinking about it voluntarily is enjoying and welcoming the act.
Finally, "imposing personal values" is quite separate from drawing obvious conclusions from obvious principles.
Peace.
I agree with completely pure mind and sight but why would masturbation be lewd if your doing it without thinking or seeing lewd things? If i am masaging my hand is that considered lewd? Where do you see the lewdness if there is no lewd content (thoughts and visual things)?
If someone does it purely for fun, whats wrong with it?
I think it wrong in the light of what some research has suggested, but that research suggests limit and that limit is not (abstain unless you really have to do it) -
"Qur'an-Alone Islam" does not exist. It will not until people arrive at some sort of reasonable consensus (comparable to consensus between Sunni schools and even Sunni/Shia sects). Disagreement is a sign that the Qur'an is not clear for us, and that is contrary to the Qur'an and thus to this crowd it is false. Not until obvious principles and a "constitution of acceptance" is drafted and derived from the Qur'an will "Qur'an-Alone Islam" exist. Such an endeavour must use the fact that Sunnis already believe in Allah (SWT) their way, and they have the numbers and hence power to make Islam a force for good (which will also eliminate Sunni Islam as a segregated and yet all-consuming club).
E.g. the same principles that BornAgain was talking about can be used to recommend 5 prayers as the only safe option (but then people do not really fear Allah (SWT) or else they are utterly convinced of their idea despite being Muslim and not disproving the other views). That is beside the point but it should be recongisable what is REALLY against the Qur'an and what is acceptable/recommended for the sake of consensus (e.g. congregation prayer may as well be what it is today with a different shahada and some adjustments). Individual prayer is up to the person's ability to apply the Qur'anic principles. An endeavour towards unity regardless of how many things (like rakat) seem "pointless" is still striving for the good.
Peace.
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I agree with completely pure mind and sight but why would masturbation be lewd if your doing it without thinking or seeing lewd things? If i am masaging my hand is that considered lewd? Where do you see the lewdness if there is no lewd content (thoughts and visual things)?
If someone does it purely for fun, whats wrong with it?
I think it wrong in the light of what some research has suggested, but that research suggests limit and that limit is not (abstain unless you really have to do it)Let us think like lawyers!
If you do it purely for release (i.e. you have to to avoid dirty thoughts which will themselves lead to temptation) then that is the point. If you do it because you are bored whilst not thinking dirty thoughts (e.g. out of fascination) then it would still be intentional and lewd if someone else saw it (i.e. what is lewd and intentional to others if unseen may well be just a lewd act done in secret). In short if someone intends to do it without deriving any pleasure from it, then there is no real point in doing it. It is in the same category as deciding which specific colour to dye one's hair (although as I mentioned masturbation would be lewd from another's point of view). By "masturbation" we mean just the pleasurable act, and anything else is besides the point and irrelevant to social Islam (i.e. it is between Allah (SWT) and the person who will be questioned about their deeds).
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"Qur'an-Alone Islam" does not exist. It will not until people arrive at some sort of reasonable consensus (comparable to consensus between Sunni schools and even Sunni/Shia sects).
I use the term ?Qur?an only Islam? purely to distinguish my practice from the traditional muslims. I do not prefer the term Qur?anist/Ahlul Qur?an because Qur?an has only spoken about Islam and being a muslim.
Disagreement is a sign that the Qur'an is not clear for us, and that is contrary to the Qur'an and thus to this crowd it is false.
Not until obvious principles and a "constitution of acceptance" is drafted and derived from the Qur'an will "Qur'an-Alone Islam" exist. Such an endeavour must use the fact that Sunnis already believe in Allah (SWT) their way, and they have the numbers and hence power to make Islam a force for good (which will also eliminate Sunni Islam as a segregated and yet all-consuming club).I find that disagreement between us is not something major, and it does not break us apart. None of us feels holier than the others because one chooses not to masturbate, pray 5 times per day. The spirit of Islam is clear, it is not merely about what obtaining personal salvation through worship alone. It is about striving collectively to develop the state of mankind and the environment using the belief of one God as common denominator. What you do in your personal space, as long as it does not harm anyone, is your own belief and responsibility to God. What we should be worrying is not a consensus of whether we should pray five times per day, or pay 2.5% charity, or whether we are allowed to masturbate or not. What we should invest our time and effort in is how we can unite the believers and communicate effectively to understand what each individual is passionate and capable of doing in terms of creating positive contribution to the environment around us.
E.g. the same principles that BornAgain was talking about can be used to recommend 5 prayers as the only safe option (but then people do not really fear Allah (SWT)). That is beside the point but it should be recongisable what is REALLY against the Qur'an and what is acceptable/recommended for the sake of consensus (e.g. congregation prayer may as well be what it is today with a different shahada and some adjustments). Individual prayer is up to the person's ability to apply the Qur'anic principles.
If you feel that praying the traditional prayer 5 times per day will make you feel more aware of the presence of God, by all means, do it. However, some people connect better to God through other methods such as meditating, reading the Qur?an or doing some social works. We cannot impose our personal preferences in the method of ?connecting? to God just for the sake of ?being safe?. One can do the traditional 5 times per day and yet feel zero connection. Will you prefer that to happen?
Unity between believers is not about looking or behaving the same way. It?s about putting aside the differences, but striving for what we have in common. The bigger picture in Islam. Freeing the slaves, feeding the poor, fighting against oppression, abolishing usury, protecting the rights of the orphans, establishing just law, etc. These are what the messengers in the past have fought for! For us to dwell on how many times we should pray and the mechanics, seem a bit too trivial, I am sorry to say. One should notice that there is little emphasis on how the messengers in the past did their prayers, and when. The Qur?an focused more on what they did in terms of community development. That is what we should be focusing on.
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I use the term ?Qur?an only Islam? purely to distinguish my practice from the traditional muslims. I do not prefer the term Qur?anist/Ahlul Qur?an because Qur?an has only spoken about Islam and being a muslim.
(Also a response to your entire last post)
If Islam as a system of belief is an entirely personal thing, then it should be called ?My personal interpretation of the Qur?an according to how I prefer to practice its precepts?, and not Islam. The majority has a particular way of doing things, and it is historically-based.
?Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.?
7153
?Like as We sent down on the dividers, those who made the Quran into shreds.?
1690-91
?And they broke their religion between them to Us shall all come back.?
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?But they cut off their religion among themselves into sects, each part rejoicing in that which is with them.?
2353
You are saying that ?Qur?an-alone Islam? does not exist since there is no such thing as being Muslim except according to our interpretation. To say that there is no one best way is to promote division. I can prove this by mentioning salaat
??surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.?
4103
Are you saying that there no prescribed time except what we can personally interpret? Can you disprove five salaat and justify (using the Qur?an) that it is legal to replace salaat with social work (which is an additional requirement) and meditation? Are you not now following your own religion?
You say there is little emphasis on salaat in the Qur?an
?Say My Lord would not care for you were it not for your prayer??
2577
See also 4103.
?And enjoin prayer on your family??
20132
?And We made them Imams who guided by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer??
2173
Now that Islam has been converted into a New Age movement, do you think it would be wise for us to join the Universal Sufis since their philosophy might suit our personal tastes more than the Qur?an? This would not solve the problem because a hollow religion built on personal preferences allows anyone to do anything that they wish. It is OK to worship Satan because he might make someone feel better when down (as long as they do not hurt anyone!). Is your approach in any way going to solve the problems associated with Islam today (such that it can become a force for good), or are you giving it a ?new? entity to fight against? Is it not enough that Islam is non-compulsive towards non-Muslims such that you still deem it necessary to allow Islam to be anything people wish by abandoning the importance of actual worship?
It is OK to believe what one wishes, but why label yourself with one particular religion? Why follow one Book and have to distinguish yourself with the term "Qur'an-alone"?
It is now necessary for people who have particular interpretations of Islam (i.e. everyone on this site) to label themselves into sects so that we can come to a better understanding of what we actually believe and follow. I am going to call mine something like "Muslims of a unified Qur'an" since it sticks to the traditional (agreed-upon) understanding of the words of the Qur'an but deduces why the Qur'an is the sole source of religious law in Islam. It believes that the Qur'an has One understanding and the premise of that is to fulfil its precepts in favour of the Islamic spirit (i.e. performing "glorification" as salaat since there is mention of five prayers besides) and remember Allah (SWT) at least as much is possibly prescribed. All social policies are derived from the Qur'an or the general principles therein, and no hadith is obligatory though it may be viewed as example (good or bad, true or false). Non-obligatory but systematic community consensus (based on the Qur'an or evidential history) replaces the ahadith as "another source of Islam". Like Sunnism, this "sect" reserves the right to disassociate religiously itself from interpretations that do not give full credence to the spirit of Islam (so that it can preserve its unity and maintain its ability to be a force for good in the (global) society). Others are welcomed as brothers/sisters in humanity, and neither do I care what others believe as long as it does not harm others. Nevertheless, according to faith and the "One" interpretation of the Qur'an, it is inevitable that this group adheres to its path on the premise that it is most Qur'anically pure and/or beneficial in the long Term. Whether it can grasp the "One" interpretation (as it was ultimately intended by Allah (SWT)) is not to be said as long as it strives as best it can.
Does anyone believe in/agree with that?
Peace.
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You don't seem to understand what I was trying to convey. I am not the one dividing Islam. I consider you, and everyone who believes in One God and does good deeds, as my brothers and sister in Islam. Yes, that takes into the account of monotheist Christians/Jews/Yogis who do good deeds.
As of five time "salat", there have been tedious arguments whether it is 5 times, or 3 times, or if "salat" equates physical worship. Using different methodologies give us different views of what salat means. Some people who use traditional and historical approach will interpret salat to mean ritualistic prayer/worship. While people who implement "the book that verifies itself" may discover that salat can mean something else. It is not about personal preference, it is about interpretation and how one's methodology can yield different interpretation. If someone BELIEVES that a certain Quranic verse means something and provides a strong argument, then can you invalidate that?
If Islam as a system of belief is an entirely personal thing, then it should be called ?My personal interpretation of the Qur?an according to how I prefer to practice its precepts?, and not Islam. The majority has a particular way of doing things, and it is historically-based.
Well, then why do you accept Islam and Qur'an? For me, personally, I believe the Qur'an suits my humanity and logical thinking. I deny contemporary Christianity because I cannot grasp the concept of trinity. I don't believe in it. If I don't believe in how others practice their interpretation of Islam/Qur'an (such as wearing the niqab, etc), then I will not practice it, I will become a hypocrite. Yes, I try to interpret and understand the Qur'an. I want to be able to say with CONVICTION, that I find it in my heart to implement Qur'an based on my belief, and not merely following how others do it (which may or may not be illogical). I respect your decision to take into consideration the practice of the majority of muslim population which is shaped by history. Somewhere along the line of "history", you need to consider that culture and politics DO influence how a religion is practiced. Indonesia holds the most population of muslims, and let me tell you (as I am an Indonesian), there are many 'Islamic' practices there that are in fact, influenced by Javanese and Hindu culture. Same with contemporary Islam. You have to consider that pre-Islamic Arabian cultures CAN influence the way Islam is practiced nowadays. History does not necessarily mean a fathful reflection of the past, it is rather a selected and collected version of past events according to the winning political parties.
I do NOT want to argue whether "salat" means 5 times ritual worship or not (the way the "history" narrates how the number 5 was revealed to Prophet Muhammad does not fit my logic by the way). What I was trying to convey, is that we should unite based on what we have in common. I am NOT suggesting that anyone should worship Satan, and don't read it that way (that analogy is getting old, really fast). I have only said that people have different ways of connecting to God, and the mechanics of that connection is up to the individual as long as it does not cross Qur'anic boundaries.
Is your approach in any way going to solve the problems associated with Islam today (such that it can become a force for good), or are you giving it a ?new? entity to fight against?
Just what is, in your views, the problems associated with Islam today? Is it because people don't pray the same way?
The problems of Islam today, is that people tend to divide themselves, and how the media portrays the practice of Islam in a certain community. How some focus on petty little things and punish those who don't do it the same like they do. They obsess on what appears on the naked eyes. So many muslims spend time worrying whether they step using their right or left food, what colour clothes they should wear, how to imitate the behaviour of the prophet, etc. If you don't abide by their standards, you're doomed to hell. Most people will make a group, solely to worship and recite Qur'an throughout the day. But how many of us muslims, try to get together to improve the state of mankind? How many form a group to regularly feed the hungry people? How many try to save the children and the women from trafficking? How many actively give education to the needy? How many try to improve the state of health of the community? How many try to end slave labour?
If you think that the problem is because we don't do certain worship the certain way, well I'm afraid then that will never be achievable. We will find things we differ. Even those who pray five times, there has been a bloody history between two groups to decide whether the word "bismillah" in the beginning of Al-fatihah should be read aloud or not.
I respect your take of Islam. Islam for me transcends beyond physical worship. It is about how one's spiritual awareness of God, leads one to develop the state of mankind. I leave it up to the individuals, to pray 3, or 5 times, the way they prefer. What I want to know, is whether they are willing to collectively perform righteous deeds apart from the differences.You are free to disagree.
It is OK to believe what one wishes, but why label yourself with one particular religion?
I don't label myself. I find Qur'an to be the most logical, and the one that satisfies my sense of humanity, and enables me to become a better person. Hence I believe that Qur'an is revealed by God. On the other hand, I am open to read Scriptures from other belief systems because I don't deny they have wisdom and positive values that I can absorb.
Unity is what one should strive for (imo). But then again, you may have different things on mind on what should be that foundation of unity.
- Peace -
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You have to ask yourself what is the actual purpose of Islam, and what is the best/most direct way to fulfil it. It is not about what best suits oneself. This is a principals-based discussion.
Peace.
Yes, I have asked myself that question. Hence, what I've been saying and fighting for all along.
- Peace -
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If you believe it's allowed and you need to go, then do it.
If you believe it's not allowed, then either don't do it (highly unlikely if you need to) or do it and live full of guilt. tempt
Simple.
I guess this was meant to be a more thorough discussion on whether it's allowed or not and I grant you that I'm not making intelligent arguments based on Al Quran. I just don't like thinking of this issue because whether the Quran says it's not to be done, or doesn't mention it, I believe everyone (generalisation, but not that general) is doing it anyway. So for me it's a moot point, even though I probs should care more. -[
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Peace all,
Just wanted to say hilarious thread. Thanks for all you do...somehow it was fit to discuss the amount of prayers. Awesome.
I'm so forwarding this thread to the Catholic church* Don't masturbate, look at houses, and indulge in treats.
*or realtor.com, can't decide which.
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This whole thread is mental masturbation. Ironic that.
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Peace Kaiokenred
Is there any chance you can give a link for this so that i can check it out for my self? It sounds interesting. But if its something you came across along time ago and don't have the link in hand, then no worries.
I stopped masturbating for 2 years (though i am again doing it) and in total i think i had like a maximum of 5 or 6 wet dreams during that two year abstince (i was about 18 then). From experience i think once your body gets the discipline, the urge is lessened. So I think once someone goes past three months of abstinence, it becomes easy and you very rarely end up getting wet dreams. I masturbate like once a week or every two weeks as i feel that that is naturally best. Although i am reconsidering just being completely abstinent again....
I saw it somewhere in free-minds, dunno where exactly propably the topic was called masturbation also
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And for those who say Guarding private parts can be used to tell that masturbation is prohibited please look the first page i quoted Meteora's post that should atleast make it clear you cannot use this verse to prohibit masturbation.
And also as tightdoti said if its not explicity forbidden in the Quran its not haram
Say Who hath forbidden the adornment of Allah which He hath brought forth for His bondmen, and the good things of His providing? Say Such, on the Day of Resurrection, will be only for those who believed during the life of the world. Thus do we detail Our revelations for people who have knowledge.