Masturbation
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You don't seem to understand what I was trying to convey. I am not the one dividing Islam. I consider you, and everyone who believes in One God and does good deeds, as my brothers and sister in Islam. Yes, that takes into the account of monotheist Christians/Jews/Yogis who do good deeds.
As of five time "salat", there have been tedious arguments whether it is 5 times, or 3 times, or if "salat" equates physical worship. Using different methodologies give us different views of what salat means. Some people who use traditional and historical approach will interpret salat to mean ritualistic prayer/worship. While people who implement "the book that verifies itself" may discover that salat can mean something else. It is not about personal preference, it is about interpretation and how one's methodology can yield different interpretation. If someone BELIEVES that a certain Quranic verse means something and provides a strong argument, then can you invalidate that?
If Islam as a system of belief is an entirely personal thing, then it should be called ?My personal interpretation of the Qur?an according to how I prefer to practice its precepts?, and not Islam. The majority has a particular way of doing things, and it is historically-based.
Well, then why do you accept Islam and Qur'an? For me, personally, I believe the Qur'an suits my humanity and logical thinking. I deny contemporary Christianity because I cannot grasp the concept of trinity. I don't believe in it. If I don't believe in how others practice their interpretation of Islam/Qur'an (such as wearing the niqab, etc), then I will not practice it, I will become a hypocrite. Yes, I try to interpret and understand the Qur'an. I want to be able to say with CONVICTION, that I find it in my heart to implement Qur'an based on my belief, and not merely following how others do it (which may or may not be illogical). I respect your decision to take into consideration the practice of the majority of muslim population which is shaped by history. Somewhere along the line of "history", you need to consider that culture and politics DO influence how a religion is practiced. Indonesia holds the most population of muslims, and let me tell you (as I am an Indonesian), there are many 'Islamic' practices there that are in fact, influenced by Javanese and Hindu culture. Same with contemporary Islam. You have to consider that pre-Islamic Arabian cultures CAN influence the way Islam is practiced nowadays. History does not necessarily mean a fathful reflection of the past, it is rather a selected and collected version of past events according to the winning political parties.
I do NOT want to argue whether "salat" means 5 times ritual worship or not (the way the "history" narrates how the number 5 was revealed to Prophet Muhammad does not fit my logic by the way). What I was trying to convey, is that we should unite based on what we have in common. I am NOT suggesting that anyone should worship Satan, and don't read it that way (that analogy is getting old, really fast). I have only said that people have different ways of connecting to God, and the mechanics of that connection is up to the individual as long as it does not cross Qur'anic boundaries.
Is your approach in any way going to solve the problems associated with Islam today (such that it can become a force for good), or are you giving it a ?new? entity to fight against?
Just what is, in your views, the problems associated with Islam today? Is it because people don't pray the same way?
The problems of Islam today, is that people tend to divide themselves, and how the media portrays the practice of Islam in a certain community. How some focus on petty little things and punish those who don't do it the same like they do. They obsess on what appears on the naked eyes. So many muslims spend time worrying whether they step using their right or left food, what colour clothes they should wear, how to imitate the behaviour of the prophet, etc. If you don't abide by their standards, you're doomed to hell. Most people will make a group, solely to worship and recite Qur'an throughout the day. But how many of us muslims, try to get together to improve the state of mankind? How many form a group to regularly feed the hungry people? How many try to save the children and the women from trafficking? How many actively give education to the needy? How many try to improve the state of health of the community? How many try to end slave labour?
If you think that the problem is because we don't do certain worship the certain way, well I'm afraid then that will never be achievable. We will find things we differ. Even those who pray five times, there has been a bloody history between two groups to decide whether the word "bismillah" in the beginning of Al-fatihah should be read aloud or not.
I respect your take of Islam. Islam for me transcends beyond physical worship. It is about how one's spiritual awareness of God, leads one to develop the state of mankind. I leave it up to the individuals, to pray 3, or 5 times, the way they prefer. What I want to know, is whether they are willing to collectively perform righteous deeds apart from the differences.You are free to disagree.
It is OK to believe what one wishes, but why label yourself with one particular religion?
I don't label myself. I find Qur'an to be the most logical, and the one that satisfies my sense of humanity, and enables me to become a better person. Hence I believe that Qur'an is revealed by God. On the other hand, I am open to read Scriptures from other belief systems because I don't deny they have wisdom and positive values that I can absorb.
Unity is what one should strive for (imo). But then again, you may have different things on mind on what should be that foundation of unity.
- Peace -
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You have to ask yourself what is the actual purpose of Islam, and what is the best/most direct way to fulfil it. It is not about what best suits oneself. This is a principals-based discussion.
Peace.
Yes, I have asked myself that question. Hence, what I've been saying and fighting for all along.
- Peace -
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If you believe it's allowed and you need to go, then do it.
If you believe it's not allowed, then either don't do it (highly unlikely if you need to) or do it and live full of guilt. tempt
Simple.
I guess this was meant to be a more thorough discussion on whether it's allowed or not and I grant you that I'm not making intelligent arguments based on Al Quran. I just don't like thinking of this issue because whether the Quran says it's not to be done, or doesn't mention it, I believe everyone (generalisation, but not that general) is doing it anyway. So for me it's a moot point, even though I probs should care more. -[
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Peace all,
Just wanted to say hilarious thread. Thanks for all you do...somehow it was fit to discuss the amount of prayers. Awesome.
I'm so forwarding this thread to the Catholic church* Don't masturbate, look at houses, and indulge in treats.
*or realtor.com, can't decide which.
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This whole thread is mental masturbation. Ironic that.
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Peace Kaiokenred
Is there any chance you can give a link for this so that i can check it out for my self? It sounds interesting. But if its something you came across along time ago and don't have the link in hand, then no worries.
I stopped masturbating for 2 years (though i am again doing it) and in total i think i had like a maximum of 5 or 6 wet dreams during that two year abstince (i was about 18 then). From experience i think once your body gets the discipline, the urge is lessened. So I think once someone goes past three months of abstinence, it becomes easy and you very rarely end up getting wet dreams. I masturbate like once a week or every two weeks as i feel that that is naturally best. Although i am reconsidering just being completely abstinent again....
I saw it somewhere in free-minds, dunno where exactly propably the topic was called masturbation also
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And for those who say Guarding private parts can be used to tell that masturbation is prohibited please look the first page i quoted Meteora's post that should atleast make it clear you cannot use this verse to prohibit masturbation.
And also as tightdoti said if its not explicity forbidden in the Quran its not haram
Say Who hath forbidden the adornment of Allah which He hath brought forth for His bondmen, and the good things of His providing? Say Such, on the Day of Resurrection, will be only for those who believed during the life of the world. Thus do we detail Our revelations for people who have knowledge.
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But then again, you may have different things on mind on what should be that foundation of unity.
Well we could talk on this all day (testing the validity of salaat being non-physical (which if it is then that blows the entire point)). "World peace" is not itself a religion. Not all peace is religion, and not all religion is Islam. The problem with Islam today is division and the fact that people do not read the Qur'an themselves. It is not that people worry about HOW they worship, it is that they are not satisified with what the Qur'an provides (the temptation of ahadith).
You miss my point about prayer. If "Quranists" do not agree on prayer, then they will never improve Islam as a whole because Sunnis will not listen. So yes it is partly because you do not pray the same way as the Sunnis ("Qur'anists" (in this instance) and the other part is that the Sunnis are too tight. I am talking about uniting Islam so that it can ultimately become a force for good (i.e. getting people to at least acknowledge the legitimacy of "my" interpretation). You are mixing Islam with another "religion" called "world-peace". I am talking about getting Islam into shape so that it is not too loose that the majority rejects Qur'an-alone (the truth), but not too tight that Muslims fight each other and fail to integrate (i.e. I know that we have to get people to listen before we can do anything, and to do that we have to understand them and make concessions). Praying differently is no problem really, but with regards to my point, it is (for reasons specified).
We are talking about different things and I can continue on and on but I must go for now. I am talking about tangible logic based on what Muslims accept.
Peace.
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And for those who say Guarding private parts can be used to tell that masturbation is prohibited please look the first page i quoted Meteora's post that should atleast make it clear you cannot use this verse to prohibit masturbation.
And also as tightdoti said if its not explicity forbidden in the Quran its not haram
Say Who hath forbidden the adornment of Allah which He hath brought forth for His bondmen, and the good things of His providing? Say Such, on the Day of Resurrection, will be only for those who believed during the life of the world. Thus do we detail Our revelations for people who have knowledge.
Have you properly addressed my previous arguments? I have addressed yours and yet you are still declaring fatwas without specifications.
Peace.
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We are talking about different things and I can continue on and on but I must go for now. I am talking about tangible logic based on what Muslims accept.
Peace.
Start a new thread about it. I might be interested... I haven't had a discussion in a while. angel
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Have you properly addressed my previous arguments? I have addressed yours and yet you are still declaring fatwas without specifications.
Peace.
Yes i believe i did, and that verse i posted was 732
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This is exactly the type of environment that Quranists should foster. This whole debate on masturbation has drawn everyone who has participated in it closer to Allah. For some this is a divisive issue, for other it seems to be "mental masturbation." However, the environment has caused us to search, think, understand, see different points of view. This is important if the Quran Alone movement is ever to get truly off the ground. Having a open forum to propose new questions or even rehash old questions is important. Remember as a child how bad it sucked when your parent said "because I said so!!" That attitude doesn't impart any understanding. I think the Quran Alone movement allows this freedom of thought and allows everyone to be a scholar. This is its true value as a movement. Hopefully we can see this and promote this in the world around us. We should encourage people to debate on issues as in the end it draws us closer to Allah with a better understanding of his will.
Enough of this "mental masturbation"... I am up for the real thing... Where did I put the tissues and the lotion??? (Just kidding) rotfl I couldn't resist! I apologize to anyone who is offended. It was only meant as a joke.
Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peace -
Yes i believe i did, and that verse i posted was 732
I believe that you are utterly devoid of logic
"Say Who has prohibited the embellishment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions? Say These are for the believers in the life of this world, purely (theirs) on the resurrection day; thus do We make the communications clear for a people who know."
732
When was deliberately masturbating with dirty thoughts an adornment and a good provision?
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This is exactly the type of environment that Quranists should foster. This whole debate on masturbation has drawn everyone who has participated in it closer to Allah. For some this is a divisive issue, for other it seems to be "mental masturbation." However, the environment has caused us to search, think, understand, see different points of view. This is important if the Quran Alone movement is ever to get truly off the ground. Having a open forum to propose new questions or even rehash old questions is important. Remember as a child how bad it sucked when your parent said "because I said so!!" That attitude doesn't impart any understanding. I think the Quran Alone movement allows this freedom of thought and allows everyone to be a scholar. This is its true value as a movement. Hopefully we can see this and promote this in the world around us. We should encourage people to debate on issues as in the end it draws us closer to Allah with a better understanding of his will.
Enough of this "mental masturbation"... I am up for the real thing... Where did I put the tissues and the lotion??? (Just kidding) rotfl I couldn't resist! I apologize to anyone who is offended. It was only meant as a joke.
Just my thoughts.
JewishDude
peace Salam, Shalom, Peace peaceNobody else was game to say anything...but I've got nothing left to lose today So....eeeewwwww!!!!!!
It is nice to have somewhere where we can discuss ''everything'' isn't it. I have compartmentalised my life to a huge degree. I can discuss certain things with certain people but not with others. I'm sure most people are like that, but it has that feeling sometimes of not being yourself. Actually I usually deal with that quite well, but I'm having an off day. So yeah - hamdulillah we can be free(ish) on here.
Still, eeeewwwww!!! laugh
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I stopped masturbating for 2 years (though i am again doing it) and in total i think i had like a maximum of 5 or 6 wet dreams during that two year abstince (i was about 18 then). From experience i think once your body gets the discipline, the urge is lessened. So I think once someone goes past three months of abstinence, it becomes easy and you very rarely end up getting wet dreams. I masturbate like once a week or every two weeks as i feel that that is naturally best. Although i am reconsidering just being completely abstinent again....
OMG, seriously dude, no need to divulge personal information -\ if by any chance we happen to meet I'll LMFAO so please don't be offended rotfl
...and will not be shaking hands either yuck
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I believe that you are utterly devoid of logic
"Say Who has prohibited the embellishment of Allah which He has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions? Say These are for the believers in the life of this world, purely (theirs) on the resurrection day; thus do We make the communications clear for a people who know."
732
When was deliberately masturbating with dirty thoughts an adornment and a good provision?
Im not saying its halal, just not haram, nowhere specified in Quran to be haram so its not, but neither halal, and you can't keep dirty thoughts away unless you're a freak or a person with a great will power or who's not pervy at all.
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OMG, seriously dude, no need to divulge personal information -\ if by any chance we happen to meet I'll LMFAO so please don't be offended rotfl
...and will not be shaking hands either yuck
I thought it might be useful to the thread. If you were not trying to offend (and im assuming you were not), then no offence taken.
Peace