Allah is not god, nor the god and has noting to do with the word god
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The universe, what do you mean by the universe? Do you mean that which has a horizon, a definite boundary? The mathematical definition of "infinity" is "that with no limits". No endpoint if you look to the end, no beginning point if you look to the beginning. If you mean THE universe as in all possible things that exist, then yes, it is God's "body". It is his "mind", it is his "soul". Yet none of these things is God attached to - God is above all human description. Being the originator, all things come from THE creator. It says in the quran that his are the most beautiful names, and this is indeed the only way you can touch God with a name.
Yes, the "I am He" experience. To feel this, you must let go of all your preconceptions and see reality with clarity. One has this clarity at birth, thus is one born a muslim, one who surrenders. And the "I am He" experience is written in the quran in such a way - "you do not will except as ALLAH wills" (7630, 8129). I recommend Alan Watt's book "The Book On The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are". It does a fairly perfect job of explaining this.
Interesting concepts OPF. I will check the book out looks interesting but just a quick question about your reference of Allah being the light; How does this tie in with 1124 where "none is like him/equal to him." If Allah is merely the Light then in my understanding there's a contradiction because then the Light would be like him because the light is part of a creation.
PEACE
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There isn't a single thing that can be like "no thing", does that make sense? ALLAH is no thing. My understanding is that what was there at the beginning of time is "ALLAH" and likewise that which will exist at the end of time is "ALLAH". If you look towards either end, you will find that what is there ceases to be physically describable in any way shape or form. All we can say is that it is one.
A clue is here in this verse
61 -All praise is due to Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth and made the darkness and the light...
With ALLAH, there is only one. With creation, there is always duality. My line of thinking is that ALLAH is the only thing that actually exists. We are a fleeting dream. Another clue
5526 - All that is on earth will perish
5527 - But will abide (for ever) the Face of thy Lord,- full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour.The energy that creates this universe could have been shaped any which way that ALLAH pleased. In truth, this universe is a collective creation. All particles have their individual piece to contribute but ALLAH has the final say. Look up the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.
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Yes, the "I am He" experience. To feel this, you must let go of all your preconceptions and see reality with clarity. One has this clarity at birth, thus is one born a muslim, one who surrenders. And the "I am He" experience is written in the quran in such a way - "you do not will except as ALLAH wills" (7630, 8129). I recommend Alan Watt's book "The Book On The Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are". It does a fairly perfect job of explaining this.
Anybody here study the LSD situation in the 60s? Alan Watts was there. Anybody notice that lots of people who have used hallucinogens come up with the same convictions? that their minds stream into panentheism, nonduality work, Buddhism? Wikipedia tells me Sufiism is where you go for nonduality from Islamic traditions.
Looking forward to comments...
Peace,
--Debbie
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Anybody here study the LSD situation in the 60s? Alan Watts was there. Anybody notice that lots of people who have used hallucinogens come up with the same convictions? that their minds stream into panentheism, nonduality work, Buddhism? Wikipedia tells me Sufiism is where you go for nonduality from Islamic traditions.
Looking forward to comments...
Peace,
--Debbie
Yeah, and there are obviously two potential explanations 1) There is something about hallucinogens and their effect on neurochemistry that brings about specific consistent effects in the user, though not 'real' in the objective sense or 2) Hallucinogens actually open the user up to free-standing realities; consistency is there because users are tapping into an actual reality.
Hard to say which is more valid. Many hallucinogen users are certainly convinced it's #2, that's for sure.
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Peace
I wonder what would be the answer of those who believe in nonduality to the below verse?
Do you not realize that GOD knows everything in the heavens and everything on earth? No three people can conspire secretly without Him being their fourth, nor five without Him being the sixth, nor less than that, nor more, without Him being there with them wherever they may be. Then, on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of everything they had done. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Asana
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Peace
I wonder what would be the answer of those who believe in nonduality to the below verse?
Do you not realize that GOD knows everything in the heavens and everything on earth? No three people can conspire secretly without Him being their fourth, nor five without Him being the sixth, nor less than that, nor more, without Him being there with them wherever they may be. Then, on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of everything they had done. GOD is fully aware of all things.
Asana
That's a very interesting point you raise up here. Every single time I have read this verse, I've always wondered why it chooses to say "no three people" or "nor five" rather than for instance "no two people". The killer sticking point of the quran is that it is perfectly precise with its wording each and every time.
The way I've thought about it is that if you're holding a meeting for example in a room, then the walls are witness to your doings. If you are in a forest, there are trees around to witness your presence. Everything leaves a vanishingly small imprint on everything else.
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OPF
if you're holding a meeting for example in a room, then the walls are witness to your doings. If you are in a forest, there are trees around to witness your presence?
Sorry, there is flaw in your understanding/interpretation there?.There are so many things around us .it?s not only the walls in the room or trees in the forest when we are there.
You missed a very crucial and important point in the verse where it says ?nor less than that, nor more??This statement cancels out what you say. God is talking about His presence separately from His Creatures.
Asana
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OPF
Sorry, there is flaw in your understanding/interpretation there?.There are so many things around us .it?s not only the walls in the room or trees in the forest when we are there.
You missed a very crucial and important point in the verse where it says ?nor less than that, nor more??This statement cancels out what you say. God is talking about His presence separately from His Creatures.
Asana
Thanks.
I hold the quran above any "ism" or "ity" regardless. And indeed the quran does keep the concept "ALLAH" far separate from the concept "creation". The verse you cited isn't the only example, the one where Moses approaches a burning fire is even more striking in this regard. I am under the preconception that ALLAH is a term that refers to the whole of consciousness. If you imagine a massive ocean of consciousness, every individual wave can speak but the entire ocean can speak as one and it will have a mind of its own, some waves will agree and other waves will disagree.
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Peace OPF
4015-" (God) Possessor of the highest degrees, and Ruler of the whole dominion. He sends inspiration, bearing His commands, to whomever He chooses from among His servants, to warn about the Day of Summoning."
God is Rafii Al-Daragat.It means God posses the Highest Degrees. The GV of Rafii is 360.
-8520
The literal translation of 8520 is But Allah from behind them encompasses.
Putting these two verses together teaches that God Encompass everything in the universe.
The allegory of God?s Power is a circle encompassing everything. This gives me a concept that universe is not body of God and every particle is not part of His body. Encompassing doesn?t mean being part of it.
Universe has the starting and expiring point .It means it?s finite. Therefore how is it possible God posses such an attribution?
Do the unbelievers not realize that the heaven and the earth used to be one solid mass that we exploded into existence? And from water we made all living things. Would they believe?
841-The time will come when the sky is ruptured.
842-It will submit to its Lord and expire.,If you imagine a massive ocean of consciousness, every individual wave can speak but the entire ocean can speak as one and it will have a mind of its own, some waves will agree and other waves will disagree.
I?ve heard such a statement. This concept could be right on two conditions, 1- the universe was infinite not finite, 2-every single wave had the same quality as the other waves since it emanates from God/The source of waves. And this doesn?t apply too.
Every single time I have read this verse, I've always wondered why it chooses to say "no three people" or "nor five" rather than for instance "no two people".
Maybe the even numbers have some thing to do with 360 too...360 divided by 4=90
360 divided by 6=60??Is there any connection there? Is God telling us something there? I don?t know.Regarding 587 ,God is The Beginning/First. If He says you are one then He is two?...He doesn't say that .is it because It doesn?t befit Him since He?s always the First?
If He says you are 2 then He is 3?He doesn't say that too.Is it because of He posses the Hightes Degree?Because of the even number?He encompass everything?
It?s interesting to know that in the Quran the even number has been used for bringing the witnesses for adultery and financial transaction.
May God increase our knowledge?
Asana -
Salaam all,
Maybe the even numbers have some thing to do with 360 too...360 divided by 4=90
360 divided by 6=60??Is there any connection there? Is God telling us something there? I don?t know.Regarding 587 ,God is The Beginning/First. If He says you are one then He is two?...He doesn't say that .is it because It doesn?t befit Him since He?s always the First?
If He says you are 2 then He is 3?He doesn't say that too.Is it because of He posses the Hightes Degree?Because of the even number?He encompass everything?
It?s interesting to know that in the Quran the even number has been used for bringing the witnesses for adultery and financial transaction.
Interestingly the following aayat also used such number, don't know why.
1822
1822 They will say Three, the fourth is their dog. And they say Five, the sixth is their dog, guessing at what they do not know. And they say Seven, and the eighth is their dog. Say My Lord is fully aware of their number, none know them except for a few. So do not argue regarding them except with proof, and do not seek information regarding them from anyone.
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Allah is not god, nor the god and has noting to do with the word god
Wahdat-ul-Wajood---Mysticism---Mysticism is Mystery---This Mysticism is Witchcraft, Sehar, Jadoo, Sorcery!
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Peace, Asana,
I get the "body of God" thing from verses such as 2435. But these are metaphors, I hope nobody actually thinks God has a "body". The more you try to explain what "God" is, the more lost you will get. This is because all things come from original causer so to explain original causer in terms of anything will never do it justice.
Also we need to be strict with our definitions. "The universe" and "God" are both vague terms because they both have so many different meanings. I use "the universe" to refer to existence in its entirety and I conclude that it does not have a beginning or an end because we delve into silly paradoxes if we take that viewpoint. However, "heaven and earth" definitely had a beginning.
To give it an analogy, you had a beginning and you will have an end, if you consider "you" to be the human body alone. But if you consider yourself as part of everything in the same way cells make up your body and die all the time, your true self does not have a beginning or an end.
Anything with a boundary is not infinite, because infinite means "without boundaries/limits". I'm looking at the vast boundaryless universe of which our universe exists as a little bubble inside. We can only see what's inside this bubble, that's our limit. What happens outside this limit is part of the unseen. And God knows the seen and the unseen.
As for citing 841/2, refer then to 11105. The context of 841 is talking about the last day, then 11105 talks about what happens on that day. If we refer to verses 107 and 108 then we see that the creator doesn't state that the heaven and earth will end, but that it may, the condition being that it will exist for as long as it exists.
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Salam and Peace!
I am under the preconception that ALLAH is a term that refers to the whole of consciousness. If you imagine a massive ocean of consciousness, every individual wave can speak but the entire ocean can speak as one and it will have a mind of its own, some waves will agree and other waves will disagree.
It is Wahdat-ul-Wajood!
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Salam and Peace!
It is Wahdat-ul-Wajood!
I didn't know there was an Arabic term for it. What is your issue with this mode of thinking?
There is no example of Allah.
No one can set a specific imagination about Allah.Allah's Exalted Book is Allah's Introduction.
We should read it and contemplate in it.It is only Allah, Who tells us Who Allah is.
You wrote this in another post. I agree with that view, especially in bold.
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Salam and Peace!
I didn't know there was an Arabic term for it. What is your issue with this mode of thinking?
Wahdat-ul-Wajood = Tasawwuf = Mysticism
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Peace OPF
I get the "body of God" thing from verses such as 2435. But these are metaphors, I hope nobody actually thinks God has a "body". The more you try to explain what "God" is, the more lost you will get. This is because all things come from original causer so to explain original causer in terms of anything will never do it justice.
Then why would you use the term of ?body of God? for God since He doesn?t use such a term in His Book? Wouldn?t you think creating/using some terms/words that can not be found for God in His own Book is wrong and gives birth to Shirk/Idolatry?
Since nobody knows the Essence of God some have come to conclusion that the starting point of infinite universe is God's body which means Essence/Being of God and that gives birth to diversity. Since they don?t know from what universe originate at the starting point they think that it must be coming from Essence of God .Therefore they interpret it as body??.That?s why they develop such a concept and express themselves in that manner.
Do they have solid Quranic proof? No. It?s all their personal interpretations.Yes all things come from original Causer but the question is that how are you sure and by what proof/s would you say that universe is His Being/ His Essence? Quran doesn?t teach such a thing?.God repeatedly reminds us that He is Creator.
Have you studied the words of Khalaqa and Ja?ala in the Quran?.....Non-duality concept turns Essence of God into ja?ala which means Him as the original point turns His body into diversities?.This is wrong and goes against God?s teachings in the Quran?.God is the Creator/Khaleq ..Creating /Khalaqa comes before Ja?ala/turning into/making into some thing else?.I wonder how you can answer to that question.Also we need to be strict with our definitions. "The universe" and "God" are both vague terms because they both have so many different meanings. I use "the universe" to refer to existence in its entirety and I conclude that it does not have a beginning or an end because we delve into silly paradoxes if we take that viewpoint. However, "heaven and earth" definitely had a beginning.
Could please mentions some of those vague terms for God and universe? I understand what you say?I only like to hear it from you because it explains your concept in more details. Then we can discuss it better by proof of the Quran God willing.
Yes universe doesn?t have beginning or end since it keeps changing into another thing. Nothing go into waste?Again the question is that how would you explain it through the word of Khalaqa as the starting point of creation by God being the Khaleq/Creator? Are you saying that again that starting point is God?s body/His Essence /Being? If so then God is not Khaleq/Creator anymore since His body was already there?I hope you can see the contradiction here.
If the universe is God?s body then the following verse has a vain meaning and is a vain revelation. The reason is that if universe according to non-duality is God?s body then asking God to show Himself and above that God wants to manifest on mountain is totally vain talk and Prophet Moses should have known that too?...Glory be to God. He is above that.When Moses came at our appointed time, and his Lord spoke with him, he said, "My Lord, let me look and see You." He said, "You cannot see Me. Look at that mountain; if it stays in its place, then you can see Me." Then, his Lord manifested Himself to the mountain, and this caused it to crumble. Moses fell unconscious. When he came to, he said, "Be You glorified. I repent to You, and I am the most convinced believer."
As for citing 841/2, refer then to 11105. The context of 841 is talking about the last day, then 11105 talks about what happens on that day. If we refer to verses 107 and 108 then we see that the creator doesn't state that the heaven and earth will end, but that it may, the condition being that it will exist for as long as it exists.
Whatever happens on the Last Day it would give birth to new universe. The earth will be another earth.
God mentions in the Quran that He initiates the creation but never say that initiation has root in His Essence/Being. He wouldn?t say that because it would contradict to Him being The Creator.
Those who believe in non-duality when they meditate they get into some state that they utter ?I am He?. This means ?I am God?. Although they do not claim to being God but they sense and utter those words...My question is that if one utters such a claim then isn?t he/she uttering blasphemy? If not then what?s blasphemy? Why should God hide such a crucial thing from us by being silent or indirect on it in His Book?
Asana
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My response is here - http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602422.0
Thank you very much for triggering my mind!
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God is genderless, he's not like humans or other beings to have a gender, and no the God is how its described in Qur'an and i believe the Quran. There are things that increase faith, that the author of Quran predicted 1400 years ago and stuff that weren't known till lately when they were discovered by modern science. You can find them here http//www.quran434.com/Does-God-Exist.pdf
http//alltheragefaces.com/img/faces/svg/disgusted-oh-god-why-text.svg
Was I this foolish? |