shahr ramadan - 3 or 10 days of abstention

david_rs_aitken

Peace Truthseeker,

It seems that when you count full-moons, they're markers.

936 The count of full-moons at the god is 12.

So, when you fast, is the full-moon not the marker for the beginning? Then the crescent (10 days later) will provide the full time period.

2189 They ask you about crescent moons. Say, "They are a timing for the people and the hajj/feast."

truthseeker171

Salam David.

It depends on the perspective how we read the relevant verses.

Verse 936 informs the believers that there are twelve counted full moons within a year and that four of them are restricted.
The days between the full moons are included in being part of the year or the restricted full moons.
So I agree with you that within this context the full moon is serving as a counting-device - as a marker.

But concerning the communal days of abstention the -shahr ramadan- the full moon itself is both the marker of the beginning and the ending of the communal fast, since the Quran does not provide for another way of timing the communal fast.
Verse 2189 is one of the verses that support this assumption.
This verse informs the believers that the -hilal- is a timing-device for the people and the hadj.
The -hilal- has a general function as a timing-device for personal affairs and the -hilal- is a timing-device for the hadj - one of the two communal Islamic events.
The Quran is complete and fully detailed.
Interesting is the absence here of mentioning the other communal Islamic event the communal abstention, so we can conclude that the -hilal- is not relevant for the duration of the period of abstention.
This verse seems to be supportive of another duration of the period of abstinence than ten days.

2185 - ... those of you who witness this full moon shall fast therein ... -

This verse gives an unambiguous time-frame.
The Quran has no shortage of words, when we would have to see the full moon just as a marker of the beginning of the period of abstinence then probably the use of the words would be different. The Quran contains words like beginning and ending, but they are not used within this context - this might only be because the full moon is the marker of both the beginning and ending of the period of abstention.

Salam and greetings,
Truthseeker

unknownuser

Peace,

Verses 89 1-3 are not explicitly related to the period of abstinence and thereby hardly could put aside the clear time-frame of the duration of the full moon mentioned in verse 2185.
For now I do not follow your argument that even and odd relate to the days and nights of the abstention period.
Both the fasting period of ten and three seem to have as many nights as days.
If there is a night of the fast as mentioned in verse 2187 then there should be also a daytime part as a follow up of the night.

A possible explanation of these verses can be that the number ten relates to the duration of the hadj and that the words even and odd relate to the practice of divination with arrows which probably was done during the hadj in the pre-quranic area - Ahmed Shabbir QXP.

892 and night ten ---> 8418 and the moon when it evened/full
893 and the even and the odd

Believe 10th night 892 always equates with the full moon 8418 which alternates 30 and 29.
Example last lunar cycle and next?
http//www.almanac.com/moon/calendar/IL/Warrenville/2010-04

http//i43.tinypic.com/34q7joh.jpg
I'll need to have a better look into this whole timing issue, time permitting.

herbman

None of those passages you referred to (2183, 189, 196 or 203) provides the primary reason for a 10 day period of abstinence. The primary reason is in 2185 itself. In 2185 we hear very clearly that we should "complete the count". We know that "ma'doodat" means 3-10. What does completing the count of "3-10" mean? It seems clear that it means reaching 10. You have not explained how completing a count of ?3-10? can mean ?3 only?.

Ayman

Peace Ayman,

When I read verse 2185 I understand to "complete the count" for those who were ill or on travel, and God make it simple for these people.

2183

O ye who believe! fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you that ye may (learn) self-restraint.

2184

Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill or on a journey, the prescribed number (should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (with hardship) is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more of his own free-willit is better for him, and it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew.

2185

Shahar Ramadan in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So everyone of you who is present (at his home) during that SHAHR should spent it in fasting, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

Peace

ayman

Peace Herbman,

When I read verse 2185 I understand to "complete the count" for those who were ill or on travel, and God make it simple for these people.
...

2185

Shahar Ramadan in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So everyone of you who is present (at his home) during that SHAHR should spent it in fasting, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

The instruction to complete the count is tied to the instruction to glorify the god (in red). The understanding that you are proposing would make glorifying the god only for those who are ill or traveling. I think this is probably why the commentators and the translator that you quoted didn't disagree about my understanding despite the issues that it creates for the validity of the traditional so-called Ramadan. Also, this is in addition to the fact that the complete and sufficient information about making up the missed days is given by the clause (so a count of later days) and there is no need for further redundant elaboration.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

mohamad_itani

it is a whole month ,the lunar cycle,clear to be counted days of 28 give or take for who ever does not see the new moon phase.
all is clear no science for us but it is good to think.give in to what is simple ,i know the blame goes on who ever tried to give us false interpretaions so that now we need to really think hard to find out.
it is all laid simple dont make it hard on your self.it is all clear.

truthseeker171

it is a whole month ,the lunar cycle,clear to be counted days of 28 give or take for who ever does not see the new moon phase.
all is clear no science for us but it is good to think.give in to what is simple ,i know the blame goes on who ever tried to give us false interpretaions so that now we need to really think hard to find out.
it is all laid simple dont make it hard on your self.it is all clear.

Salaam Mohamad

I advice you to read verse 2185 very well.
The literal wording ... whoever witnesses among you the -shahr- (ramadan)- then he should fast it...
This means that the person who witnesses the full moon of -ramadan-, should fast this period of the full moon - 3 days.
The traditional interpretation of this verse would ask the believers to do something impossible.
Namely to witness a whole mooncycle of 29 or 30 days and go back into time and fast the month.
Imagine someone who dies halfway the mooncycle - then that person did not witness the mooncycle.

The full moon of the scorching heat, -shahr ramadan- can be witnessed and one can fast (during) it.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Peace,

I advice you to read verse 2185 very well.
The literal wording ... whoever witnesses among you the -shahr- (ramadan)- then he should fast it...
This means that the person who witnesses the full moon of -ramadan-, should fast this period of the full moon - 3 days.
The traditional interpretation of this verse would ask the believers to do something impossible.
Namely to witness a whole mooncycle of 29 or 30 days and go back into time and fast the month.
Imagine someone who dies halfway the mooncycle - then that person did not witness the mooncycle.

The full moon of the scorching heat, -shahr ramadan- can be witnessed and one can fast (during) it.

There are different types of witnesses/witnessing which not all are visual?
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/witness

Example; evidence put forth/shahida by a person/shhidun sympathetic for an accused.

1226-27
washahida shhidun from her family --
"If is his shirt torn from the front then she has spoken the truth, and he from the liars...
And if is his shirt torn from the back so she has lied and he from the truthful."

truthseeker171

There are different types of witnesses/witnessing which not all are visual?
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/witness

Example; evidence put forth/shahida by a person/shhidun sympathetic for an accused.

1226-27
washahida shhidun from her family --
"If is his shirt torn from the front then she has spoken the truth, and he from the liars...
And if is his shirt torn from the back so she has lied and he from the truthful."

Salaam

It is correct that there are several meanings of the wording -witnessing-.
That seems not to have any influence on the fact that it would be very illogical that one would have to witness (in several meanings of the word) a whole lunar-cycle and go back into time and start to fast the witnessed lunar-cycle.
One can only witness a whole month - when one has actually witnessed the whole month.

One can witness a full moon by seeing it or acknowledging it.
Also during clouded days one can witness the full moon by acknowledging that it is the period of the full moon - based on calculations - mooncalendars.
When one witnesses (in several meanings of the word) a full moon - one can fast the duration of it.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Peace,

one can acknowledge or avow to fast the month and do so

that is simple and logical while to fast a full moon which lasts a few minutes is illogical
that is also full of contradictions the blind, full moons viewed at night

excuse the iPhone reply and any typos

truthseeker171

one can acknowledge or avow to fast the month and do so

that is simple and logical while to fast a full moon which lasts a few minutes is illogical
that is also full of contradictions the blind, full moons viewed at night

Salaam

Several meanings of -shahida- shiin-ha-dal = told/gave information, to witness/see, to be present, give evidence/testimony, bear witness.

You are right in saying that one can acknowledge the starting of a new month and fast in it.
But the question is, if that is compatible with the literal wording of verse 2185.
The moment that one actually could witness/acknowledge concerning this matter is the start of the month, not the whole lunar-cycle at once.
If witnessing the start of a month would be indicated in the verse, then the -hilal- might have been mentioned.
But the -hilal- was an indicator for the -hajj- and not for the fasting period - verse 2189.
This gives koranic evidence that the -shahr- as the indicator for the fasting-period has nothing to do with the -hilal- and thereby the -shahr- of verse 2185 seems not to have anything in common with the start of the lunar-cycle (one of the two -hilal-) or the whole lunar-cycle.

The koranic wording of verse 2185 relates to witnessing the -shahr- itself, not to only the beginning of it.
One can witness or acknowlegde via a calendar that the full moon of ramadan is there and fast the period of it.

The moon is actually never full from earth's perspective.
If the line between sun-earth-moon would be absolutely straight then there would be a moon-eclipse.
According to Lane's dictionary -shahr- means amongst others the near full moon.
A full moon of 98% would suffice to see the moon as the -shahr-.
The period that the moon can be seen as a full moon of at least 98% - lasts three days.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

The koranic wording of verse 2185 relates to witnessing the -shahr- itself, not to only the beginning of it.
One can witness or acknowlegde via a calendar that the full moon of ramadan is there and fast the period of it.

Salaam and right,

2185
so who shahida (avows, acknowledges or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast in it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

truthseeker171

Salaam and right,

2185
so who shahida (avows, acknowledges or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast in it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

Your translation -so he should fast in it- seems not to be correct.
-he should fast it-, seems to be more appropiate.
So one can fast the full moon that one sees/witnesses, one can fast it when seen/witnessed.
One can not witness a whole month and then fast it.

I advice you to read verse 2189 - the absence of the mentioning of the period of abstention as related to the -hilal- is remarkable.
The communal event of the hajj is mentioned, not the other communal event of the collective fast.

I advice you to do research on the koranic reference of the word ma'doodat (verse 2184) - it seems to mean 3 (days) or a few - probably far from meaning 29/30.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Your translation -so he should fast in it- seems not to be correct.
-he should fast it-, seems to be more appropiate.
So one can fast the full moon that one sees/witnesses, one can fast it when seen/witnessed.

How can one fast the full moon which happen during the night, fasting is during a day?

One can not witness a whole month and then fast it.

It is possible; you keep repeating the visual only definition of shahida.
Who first makes the intent to fast the period then they should fast it.

2185
so who shahida (avows or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

I advice you to read verse 2189 - the absence of the mentioning of the period of abstention as related to the -hilal- is remarkable.
The communal event of the hajj is mentioned, not the other communal event of the collective fast.

I advice you to do research on the koranic reference of the word ma'doodat (verse 2184) - it seems to mean 3 (days) or a few - probably far from meaning 29/30.

Lets stay with 2185 -- Explain how one is to fast al-shahra (&#1614 and when to start/stop and how many days exactly?

truthseeker171

How can one fast the full moon which happen during the night, fasting is during a day?

It is possible; you keep repeating the visual only definition of shahida.
Who first makes the intent to fast the period then they should fast it.

2185
so who shahida (avows or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

Lets stay with 2185 -- Explain how one is to fast al-shahra (&#1614 and when to start/stop and how many days exactly?

The period of full moon with a coverage of 98% lasts about three days - so if one sees/witnesses the full moon at day- or night-time then their is enough time to fast three days - while the moon being witnessed as full.

Your translation of -shahida- as avowing or intend to fast seems not to be accurate.
-shahida- means rather to witness/see/to be present.
One can not witness or see or be present (at) a whole lunar-cycle at once.
-shahida el shahr- in verse 2185 seems to mean witnessing, seeing or being present (at) the full moon.
Also because

Verse 2184 - the wording -ma'dootan-, according to koranic reference meaning 3 (days) or a few - far less than 29/30.
Verse 2198 - the -hilal- is relevant for the hajj and not for the other communal event - the communal abstention.

I ask you to do your own research on verses 2184 and 2198 - may be you can give another insight.

The timing of fasting the full moon of ramadan.
If the full moon is witnessed/seen before the koranic night - then one has the night to eat and drink as preparation for the fast that begins just before -fadjr-.
If the full moon is witnessed during the night, the fast does not start next daytime, then the next night is the night of the preparation of the fast.
According to verse 2184 the plural of more than two regarding the number of days - requires a fasting of three days at least. The wording ma'dootan refers to possibly three days. The full moon of verse 2185 refers to three days.

One can find out via a mooncalendar what is the day of the most full moon and see that the day before and after have at least 98% coverage.
That is enough to witness the moon as full - it is a basic, efficient tool - not high-tech.

If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you
1 - to proof that the word -ma'doodat- can mean 29/30.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing divice for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.

salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

truthseeker171

The timing of fasting the full moon of ramadan.
If the full moon is witnessed/seen before the koranic night - then one has the night to eat and drink as preparation for the fast that begins just before -fadjr-.
If the full moon is witnessed during the night, the fast does not start next daytime, then the next night is the night of the preparation of the fast.
According to verse 2184 the plural of more than two regarding the number of days - requires a fasting of three days at least. The wording ma'dootan refers to possibly three days. The full moon of verse 2185 refers to three days.

One can find out via a mooncalendar what is the day of the most full moon and see that the day before and after have at least 98% coverage.
That is enough to witness the moon as full - it is a basic, efficient tool - not high-tech.

The moment of sunset seems not to be the start of the koranic night.
Verse 20130 indicates that the sunset is not a part of the night.
Rather the moment of the gradual darkening of the sky - verse 3637, when the first planets/stars can be seen - verse 676, is the start of the night.
In this case the moment of witnessing the full moon happens in general before the actual koranic night of the fast.
The moment of sunset and the rise of the full moon are related to another.
The actual abstinence starts at the beginning of the moment of -fajr-.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

afridi220

it is a whole month ,the lunar cycle,clear to be counted days of 28 give or take for who ever does not see the new moon phase.
all is clear no science for us but it is good to think.give in to what is simple ,i know the blame goes on who ever tried to give us false interpretaions so that now we need to really think hard to find out.
it is all laid simple dont make it hard on your self.it is all clear.

Salam,
Why hajj is for three days and fasting for whole month while same wording -ma'dootan is used in both verses ??

truthseeker171

time of the year - bump

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

herbman

Peace Ayman, all,

First of all happy Ramadan, I guess you are fasting the next 10 days.

I don't know if anyone raised this issue before, if yes you are welcomed to point me the link, otherwise please can you answer this question

in verse 2197

yusuf ali

For Hajj are the ASHUHUR well known. If anyone undertakes that duty therein let there be no obscenity nor wickedness nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (with you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, O ye that are wise.!

My question

does the Hajj occur during full moons?

This leads me to a very simple conclusion, if Hajj can occur during full moons, the "count" can only be 3 days as per 2196!!!

Thanks and Peace

youssef4342

Peace be with you guys as well,
from my current understanding, ramadan would be a lunar month as per 2185

morover, my 2 cents on h Hajj would be that it would be during months, not just 3 days, to allow the actual traveling from places far away 2227