Hot/"ramadan" Answer

[mohamad_itani]

salam,
this subject has every one thinking for a long time,what if we take the quran alone ,how will we know when is ramadan.
i think the more obvious is the better.we dont really need alot of scientific theory to figure out when is ramadan.
it must be something obvious else we will go into taweel and we dont want to do that.
to know when is ramadan then we need a sign right,the only sign you can get in nature is when we change the season from winter to spring ,we see the trees getting green again.well it is Allah giving life again to the plants.
Ramadan has to do with spring for ramad means spring as clear as that no need to for Nuclear physics.now we still have one problem ,when is the month we now we do have the season but when does the month start?
Allah Subhanah gave us another sighn to know the starting of the month and that is the new moon.when we first see it then we are in ramadan.
every where on earth does share the season change in the north hami the snow will melt and the birds are back,the treas will start to get grean.south hami the same thing spring does have that season change too.so the next sign will be the moon .who ever sees it then must fast that month .yes the whole month,as for the year with thirteen moon cycles.true we do have thirteen moon cycles during that year every eleven years or so but that is we dont have thriteen full moon life cycle,only a beginning of a new cycle.so we dont have full thirteen months in one year never.as we know now the moon cycle is only used for ramadan and money issues.
as for laylat el qadr ,well it does not have to do with the quran.it could mean something else too.who knows.it was not clear in the aya what was sent down with laylat el qadr.all it says is that it was el rouh and almalaikat.that is all.
Allah knows best.

[truthseeker171]

Ramadan has to do with spring for ramad means spring as clear as that no need to for Nuclear physics.

so the next sign will be the moon .who ever sees it then must fast that month .yes the whole month,

Salaam

The meaning of the word -ramadan-

• to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast -

Lane's Lexicon does not mention the meaning -spring- for the word -ramadan-.

quote from http//www.med.umich.edu/diversity/pdffiles/ramadan.pdf

... In the pre-Islamic Arabic calendar, the month of Ramadan fell during the heat of summer.
The word Ramadan means ?scorcher? in Arabic. The early Arabic calendar, like the
current Islamic calendar, was lunar. Because a lunar month has only 29 or 30 days, a year
of 12 lunar months falls short of the 365 days in a solar calendar. In the pre-Islamic
calendar, the lunar months kept their place in the seasons by the insertion of an extra
month every two or three years. The Islamic calendar abolished this practice ...

Actually the Koran uses the language of pre-Islamic Arabia - otherwise the Koran would not be understandable for the people.
The Islamic calender seems to be a product of people who lived after the departure of the prophet Mohammed.

Does -shahr- mean a whole month?

The Koran seems to indicate otherwise.

1. Verse 2189 indicates that there is no koranic support for the point of view that the abstention should last 29/30 or 10 days, because of the absence of mentioning the period of abstinence explicitly in this verse.
   This verse mentions the hilal-indicator as relevant for the communal event of the -hajj- and not for the communal event of the abstention during the -shahr ramadan-.

2. Verse 2203 gives the only koranic exact example of the Arabic word -ma'doodat- mentioned in verse 2184 regarding the number of days of abstention, and refers to the number three as the prescribed duration of being present at the -hajj- which lasts ten days in total.
   In verses 280 and 324 the word -ma'doodat- refers to the few days that the fire will touch a group of people according to their assumption.
   In verse 1220 the word -ma'doodat- refers to a few -dirhams-.
   So the Koran indicates that the word -ma'doodat- is rather a very small number - not 29 or 30.

3. Verse 2184 tells the believers when they witness or see the -shahr ramadan- that they should fast it - one can witness or see the full moon and fast it - the full moon lasts about three days.
   If here a total lunar-cycle was meant - then it would be rather impossible to witness or see the whole month and go back into time to fast the whole month.
   One can only acknowlegde the start of a month - seeing the -hilal-.
   But verse 2189 clearly rules out that the period of fasting -shahr ramadan- has anything to do with the -hilal-.
   The -hilal- was relevant for the -hajj-, not for the other communal koranic event - the communal fasting.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[mmkhan]

Salaam brother,

The Koran seems to indicate otherwise.

1. Verse 2189 indicates that there is no koranic support for the point of view that the abstention should last 29/30 or 10 days, because of the absence of mentioning the period of abstinence explicitly in this verse.
   This verse mentions the hilal-indicator as relevant for the communal event of the -hajj- and not for the communal event of the abstention during the -shahr ramadan-.

2. Verse 2203 gives the only koranic exact example of the Arabic word -ma'doodat- mentioned in verse 2184 regarding the number of days of abstention, and refers to the number three as the prescribed duration of being present at the -hajj- which lasts ten days in total.
   In verses 280 and 324 the word -ma'doodat- refers to the few days that the fire will touch a group of people according to their assumption.
   In verse 1220 the word -ma'doodat- refers to a few -dirhams-.
   So the Koran indicates that the word -ma'doodat- is rather a very small number - not 29 or 30.

3. Verse 2184 tells the believers when they witness or see the -shahr ramadan- that they should fast it - one can witness or see the full moon and fast it - the full moon lasts about three days.
   If here a total lunar-cycle was meant - then it would be rather impossible to witness or see the whole month and go back into time to fast the whole month.
   One can only acknowlegde the start of a month - seeing the -hilal-.
   But verse 2189 clearly rules out that the period of fasting -shahr ramadan- has anything to do with the -hilal-.
   The -hilal- was relevant for the -hajj-, not for the other communal koranic event - the communal fasting.

I got similar understand as yours about Ramadhan and its period of fasting, but not sure about the word "Shahr". I still have to study it in detail. Can you put some light on your understanding the meaning meaning of word "Shahr".

Thanks in advance.

May Allah increase us all in true knowledge and guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

[truthseeker171]

I got similar understand as yours about Ramadhan and its period of fasting, but not sure about the word "Shahr". I still have to study it in detail. Can you put some light on your understanding the meaning meaning of word "Shahr".

Alaikoom as-salaam brother

Lanes Lexicon gives several meanings

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent,
the moon when conspicuous and near to being full.

So the standard work of classical Arabic does not give a solution - only possibilities.

That is why it seems to be the best to focus on the word -ma'doodat-, the number of days of the communal abstention, in verse 2184.
In this way the Koran may guide us to the koranic meaning of the word -shahr- in verse 2184, the full moon that lasts three days.
Regarding the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- in verses 2203, 280, 324 and 1220 - three or a few.
Also verse 2189 is compelling in ruling out the relevance of the -hilal- as indicator for the period of abstention.
So the lunar-cycle starting with the -hilal- has no relevance to -shahr ramadan-.

When the word -shahr- is used in the plural form, then the days that are between the full moons are also belonging to the indicated period.
For instance verse 2234 - the waiting period and 95 - the restricted full moons.
The period lasts from the first day of the first full moon until the last day of the last full moon.
In verse 2194 -shahr haram- is mentioned in singular form - since it relates to one of the four restricted moons (verse 936), here the -shahr- is mentioned as exemplary as one of the four restricted full moons, which indicate a longer period.

So it seems to depend on the context what the meaning of the word -shahr- is.
The -shahr ramadan- seems to be only the period of the full -scorching moon- itself - since the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- as given in the Koran - 3 (days) or a few.
And because of following when witnessed or seen, the -shahr ramadan- itself has to be fasted, not a day more, not a day less - verse 2185.

Salaam,
Truthseeker.

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[unknownuser]

When the word -shahr- is used in the plural form, then the days that are between the full moons are also belonging to the indicated period.
For instance verse 2234 - the waiting period and 95 - the restricted full moons.
The period lasts from the first day of the first full moon until the last day of the last full moon.
In verse 2194 -shahr haram- is mentioned in singular form - since it relates to one of the four restricted moons (verse 936), here the -shahr- is mentioned as exemplary as one of the four restricted full moons, which indicate a longer period.

So it seems to depend on the context what the meaning of the word -shahr- is.
The -shahr ramadan- seems to be only the period of the full -scorching moon- itself - since the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- as given in the Koran - 3 (days) or a few.
And because of following when witnessed or seen, the -shahr ramadan- itself has to be fasted, not a day more, not a day less - verse 2185.

Peace -- to be consistent, exactly how many days total?

492/584 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (&#1616 consecutively

2226 For those who swear from their women waiting/tarabbusu four ashhurin (&#1613
2234 should wait for themselves four ashhurin (&#1613 and ten (i.e. fourteen)
92 so move about in the land four ashhurin (&#1613
654 so their waiting period three ashhurin (&#1613

[truthseeker171]

Peace -- to be consistent, exactly how many days total?

492/584 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (&#1616 consecutively

2226 For those who swear from their women waiting/tarabbusu four ashhurin (&#1613
2234 should wait for themselves four ashhurin (&#1613 and ten (i.e. fourteen)
92 so move about in the land four ashhurin (&#1613
654 so their waiting period three ashhurin (&#1613

Salaam

Anyway the measuring of the month according to the -hilal- is not very exact - seeing the international disagreement about what and when a -hilal- is.

The full-moon marker seems to be more exact - since the mooncalendar can give reliable information about when the full moons are within a range of years.

For each example that you mentioned - there could be a rather precise countingmethod.
But one issue has to be delt with first - what is the beginning of the day - the morning or the evening?

Apart from this the standard rule might be the first day of the full moon when there is about 98% coverage until the last day of the last relevant -shahr-, when there is also about 98% coverage.
The moon is actually never full seen from earth's perpective - if the sun, earth and moon where exactly in line, there would be a lunar-eclips.
The full moon with at least 98% coverage can be witnessed as a full moon and lasts about three days.

For the four restricted full moons this could mean that this period lasts about 91.5 days (3 x 29.5 + 3).
But the fine-tuning depends on when a new day starts - the evening or the morning? - that is another topic, that can be dealt with.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[unknownuser]

Salaam

Anyway the measuring of the month according to the -hilal- is not very exact - seeing the international disagreement about what and when a -hilal- is.

The full-moon marker seems to be more exact - since the mooncalendar can give reliable information about when the full moons are within a range of years.

For each example that you mentioned - there could be a rather precise countingmethod.
But one issue has to be delt with first - what is the beginning of the day - the morning or the evening?

Apart from this the standard rule might be the first day of the full moon when there is about 98% coverage until the last day of the last relevant -shahr-, when there is also about 98% coverage.
The moon is actually never full seen from earth's perpective - if the sun, earth and moon where exactly in line, there would be a lunar-eclips.
The full moon with at least 98% coverage can be witnessed as a full moon and lasts about three days.

For the four restricted full moons this could mean that this period lasts about 91.5 days (3 x 29.5 + 3).
But the fine-tuning depends on when a new day starts - the evening or the morning? - that is another topic, that can be dealt with.

Peace -- you keep skipping answering simple questions with more questions;
as with any problem let's break it down and simply apply it to fasting only...

We know fasting is from dawn to sunset, therefore how many days exactly?

492/584 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (&#1616 consecutively

[truthseeker171]

Peace -- you keep skipping answering simple questions with more questions;
as with any problem let's break it down and simply apply it to fasting only...

We know fasting is from dawn to sunset, therefore how many days exactly?

492/584 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (&#1616 consecutively

Salaam,

The fact that I brought up the relevant issue -when is the start of a new day-, did not hinder to give an answer.

I agree that fasting begins at dawn.
The ending of fasting at sunset - that is really an issue, that has not been cleared definitely yet - other topic.
(in my opinion the koranic night starts after the vanishing of the redness of the sky - witnessing the first planet/star, anyway later than sunset, since during sunset the -nahar- is still too dominant).

The timing of fasting the full moon of ramadan.
If the full moon is witnessed/seen before the koranic night - then one has the night to eat and drink as preparation for the fast that begins just before -fadjr-.
If the full moon is witnessed during the night, the fast does not start next daytime, then the next night is the night of the preparation of the fast.
According to verse 2184 the plural of more than two regarding the number of days - requires a fasting of three days at least. The wording ma'dootan refers to possibly three days. The full moon of verse 2185 refers to three days.
One can find out via a mooncalendar what is the day of the most full moon and see that the day before and after have at least 98% coverage.
That is enough to witness the moon as full - it is a basic, global, efficient tool - not high-tech.

As said before if a plural of the full moon is mentioned, then the days between the full moons are to be included, for instance according to verse 2226.
For two consecutive full moons - the number of days could be at average 29.5 + 3 days.

It is correct to bring up these verses concerning the plural -shahr-.
This subject seems not to overrule the wording of verses 2184 and 2185 - regarding -shahr ramadan-.
Furthermore
The meaning of the word -ma'doodat- in verses 2203, 280, 324 and 1220 - three or a few.
Verse 2189 is compelling in ruling out the relevance of the -hilal- as indicator for the period of abstention.

If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you
1 - to proof that the word -ma'doodat- can mean 29/30.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing divice for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.

salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[IMHO]

Salaam,

The fact that I brought up the relevant issue -when is the start of a new day-, did not hinder to give an answer.

I agree that fasting begins at dawn.
The ending of fasting at sunset - that is really an issue, that has not been cleared definitely yet - other topic.
(in my opinion the koranic night starts after the vanishing of the redness of the sky - witnessing the first planet/star, anyway later than sunset, since during sunset the -nahar- is still too dominant).

salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Salaam
And when We exacted a covenant from the prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary. We took from them a solemn covenant; (337)

The Qur?an did not drop from the sky it was revealed to an ordinary man with special status due to a solemn covenant So Muhammad(pbuh) knew exactly when to start fasting and how to fast in that month. It will be better if you put your energies into doing bit of research into that period

Simpls

[truthseeker171]

And when We exacted a covenant from the prophets, and from thee (O Muhammad) and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus son of Mary. We took from them a solemn covenant; (337)

The Qur?an did not drop from the sky it was revealed to an ordinary man with special status due to a solemn covenant So Muhammad(pbuh) knew exactly when to start fasting and how to fast in that month. It will be better if you put your energies into doing bit of research into that period

Salaam

The -solemn covenant- refers probably to the perfect transfer of the -message- to mankind.
The message that Mohammad had to give to mankind was the Koran - he succeeded very well as far as we can know.

So we have to search and find in the perfect and complete Koran, see for instance verses 6115, 1689, the right way of Islam - not in humanly invented sources like the -ahadeeth-, see for instance verses 456, 4221.

Where do you suggest to find the right way of fasting during -shahr ramadan-?
I hope you will prefer to say the Koran - our perfect guidance, verse 22.

If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you
1 - to prove that the word -ma'doodat-, as in verse 2184, can mean 29/30 in stead of 3 (days) or a few.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing device for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.

salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[IMHO]

Salaam

The -solemn covenant- refers probably to the perfect transfer of the -message- to mankind.
The message that Mohammad had to give to mankind was the Koran - he succeeded very well as far as we can know.

So we have to search and find in the perfect and complete Koran, see for instance verses 6115, 1689, the right way of Islam - not in humanly invented sources like the -ahadeeth-, see for instance verses 456, 4221.

Where do you suggest to find the right way of fasting during -shahr ramadan-?
I hope you will prefer to say the Koran - our perfect guidance, verse 22.

If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you
1 - to prove that the word -ma'doodat-, as in verse 2184, can mean 29/30 in stead of 3 (days) or a few.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing device for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.

salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

Salaam
There is a huge difference between hedth and sunnah so how about digging into past to find out how Muhammad (pbuh) implemented deen and once you put your energies into that eara, you would get your answers.
As for the point you raised they have been discussed several time in this thread and going into circular argument will not revive this threat anymore, the time has gone when this thread attracted lot of attention its time to move on to better subjects.

Simpls

[truthseeker171]

There is a huge difference between hedth and sunnah so how about digging into past to find out how Muhammad (pbuh) implemented deen and once you put your energies into that eara, you would get your answers.
As for the point you raised they have been discussed several time in this thread and going into circular argument will not revive this threat anymore, the time has gone when this thread attracted lot of attention its time to move on to better subjects.Simpls

Salaam

Again I ask you - which sources do you advice to investigate the true meaning of the wording -shahr ramadan-?
If you name anything different from the Koran - then a discussion would be difficult - because the Koran is to be regarded as the real and only guidance - to find true Islam, verses 6115, 1689.

If you find some circular arguments in this thread - then it should not be very hard to find possible answers to following question

If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you
1 - to give koranic proof that the word -ma'doodat-, as in verse 2184, can mean 29/30 in stead of 3 (days) or a few.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing device for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.

salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[ayman]

492/584 so who not find, so fasting (two) shahrayni (&#1616 consecutively

The period between two consecutive full-moons, in other words 29-30 days.

2226 For those who swear from their women waiting/tarabbusu four ashhurin (&#1613

Since "shahr" is an event like menstruation is an event, the same wording is used in both 2226 and 2228. The number of days will vary between 29.5x3 (if separation happens right before the full moon) and 29.5x3+28.5 (if separation happens right after the full moon).

2234 should wait for themselves four ashhurin (&#1613 and ten (i.e. fourteen)

The "ten" can be understood in light of the following passages 4625 and 2233

The word "7awl" is the time it takes for something to mature (the normal human gestation period). Thus the two passages can be reconciled using the following formula

10 + 2(10) = 30

The time between 10 full-moons is 29.5x9= 265.5 and the normal human gestation period is 38 weeks or 266 days. The only way to reconcile those two passages with the scientifc reality of human gestation period is if "shahr" was an event (the full-moon) and not a continuous period of 29 or 30 days. Otherwise, the human pregnancy would be 300 days, which we know if false!

So in 2234, 14 = 4 + the normal gestation period (10). So they wait for 14 full moons.

92 so move about in the land four ashhurin (&#1613

Move about the land for four full-moons (until four full moons had passed).

654 so their waiting period three ashhurin (&#1613

So their waiting period is three full-moons (until three full moons had passed).

Peace,

Ayman

[siki]

The "ten" can be understood in light of the following passages 4625 and 2233

The word "7awl" is the time it takes for something to mature (the normal human gestation period). Thus the two passages can be reconciled using the following formula

Ayman, salam

your reference for 46-25 is wrong , actually it is 46-15,

What would you say about " Haul" in 2-240 ? is it a year , or a cycle, and if cycle what cycle ?

siki

[ayman]

Peace Siki,

Ayman, salam
your reference for 46-25 is wrong , actually it is 46-15,

You are right. It is a typo and it should be 4615. Thanks for correcting. )

What would you say about " Haul" in 2-240 ? is it a year , or a cycle, and if cycle what cycle ?

It is the same period mentioned previously in 2233. In other words, the normal human gestation period of 10 full-moons.

Peace,

Ayman

[siki]

Peace

Widow waits 4 shahars, if there is no sign of pregnancy, she can re marry, but if she is pregnant, then she is to go through 10 shahars (9 months of human gestation cycle) before she can re marry. And she must be provided for the complete (haull) cycle which is equvilant to 10 shahars or 9 months or 38 weeks, provided she decides to stay in her deceased husband's house, but if she wants to leave earlier, then it is not binding.

The waiting period for a divorced woman is counted with coming of menstruation , and she is to count 3 before she is free, but the same interim for widows is counted in shahars, and are 4, Any reason/logic ?

65-4 also gives instructions regarding women who have reached menopause and hence cannot rely on menstruation for completing their divorce interim, it replaces three mensturations with counting of three shahars.

And this is the most important clue that shahar is not a month , but an event , just like coming of menstruation.

siki

[truthseeker171]

Peace

Verses 2228 and 654 together also may provide evidence that the -shahr- is used as an -event- for counting time and is not a period of 29/30 days itself.

Verse 2228 - the waitingperiod for a divorced woman is three -qurin-, menstruations.
Three -events- of menstruation have to pass.

Verse 654 - the waitingperiod for a divorced woman (not pregnant) without (reliable) menstruationcycle is three -shahr-.
Three -events- of witnessing the full moon have to pass - 2 x 29.5 + 3 = 62 days (shortest - when full moon is witnessed the day after the divorce)

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[mmkhan]

Salaam bro,

Alaikoom as-salaam brother

Lanes Lexicon gives several meanings

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new moon, moon, full moon, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent,
the moon when conspicuous and near to being full.

So the standard work of classical Arabic does not give a solution - only possibilities.

Yeah, I was looking to get the exact meaning of 'Shahr' but could not able to find it. If we take 'full moon' instead of 'month' it will change almost everything with reference to 'Shahr' in AlQuraan. For instance

2194
2194 The restricted month may be met with in the restricted month, and what is unlawful may be met with retaliation. Whoever attacks you, then you shall attack him the same as he attacked you; and be aware of Allah, and know that Allah is with the righteous.

What means AlShahr AlHaraam in 2194? The Restricted Full Moon?

2217
2217 They ask you about the restricted month Is there fighting in it? Say Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of Allah and to disbelieve in it, and the Restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out from it is far greater with Allah, and persecution is worse than being killed. And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their works in this world and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide!

What does FEEHI mean in 2217? Fighting in Restricted Full Moon?

52
52 O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of Allah, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Restricted Sanctuary; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing. And when it is permitted for you, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because they had barred you from the Restricted Temple; make you aggress. And help each other in piety and righteousness, and do not help each other in sin and aggression. And be aware of Allah, for the retribution of Allah is severe.

O believers, do not make Restricted Full Moon HALAAL?

And there are many. We have change from 4 months understanding to 3 months and from 2 to 1.

That is why it seems to be the best to focus on the word -ma'doodat-, the number of days of the communal abstention, in verse 2184.
In this way the Koran may guide us to the koranic meaning of the word -shahr- in verse 2184, the full moon that lasts three days.
Regarding the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- in verses 2203, 280, 324 and 1220 - three or a few.
Also verse 2189 is compelling in ruling out the relevance of the -hilal- as indicator for the period of abstention.
So the lunar-cycle starting with the -hilal- has no relevance to -shahr ramadan-.

My understanding of 'ayyaamam ma'doodaat' is also three as per AlQuraan.

Why do you take 'Ahillati' as 'Hilaal' in 2189? 'Ahillati' is a derivative of 'Uhilla' in 2173, how will you translate 2173 then?

So it seems to depend on the context what the meaning of the word -shahr- is.
The -shahr ramadan- seems to be only the period of the full -scorching moon- itself - since the meaning of the word -ma'doodat- as given in the Koran - 3 (days) or a few.
And because of following when witnessed or seen, the -shahr ramadan- itself has to be fasted, not a day more, not a day less - verse 2185.

Scorching Moon? I did not see any such moon yet. And...

2185
2185 A month of aspiration, in which the Quraan was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify Allah for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

So, who ever witnesses 'AlShahr' then he should fast IT? How can we fast The Full Moon?

I am sure there is a difference in meanings of 'Shahr' and 'AlShahr', if you notice brother, 2185 used both the words, why only 'Shahr' with 'Ramadhan' and why 'AlShahr'? Lets see how Allah guides us, we don't need to rush to misguide ourselves.

May Allah increase us all in true knowledge and guide us all to His path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

[truthseeker171]

Salaam brother

Yeah, I was looking to get the exact meaning of 'Shahr' but could not able to find it. If we take 'full moon' instead of 'month' it will change almost everything with reference to 'Shahr' in AlQuraan. For instance

2194
2194 The restricted month may be met with in the restricted month, and what is unlawful may be met with retaliation. Whoever attacks you, then you shall attack him the same as he attacked you; and be aware of Allah, and know that Allah is with the righteous.

What means AlShahr AlHaraam in 2194? The Restricted Full Moon?

2217
2217 They ask you about the restricted month Is there fighting in it? Say Much fighting is in it, and to repel from the path of Allah and to disbelieve in it, and the Restricted Temple, to drive its inhabitants out from it is far greater with Allah, and persecution is worse than being killed. And they still will fight you until they turn you back from your system if they are able. And whoever of you turns back from his system, and he dies while disbelieving, then these have nullified their works in this world and the next; these are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide!

What does FEEHI mean in 2217? Fighting in Restricted Full Moon?

52
52 O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of Allah, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Restricted Sanctuary; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing. And when it is permitted for you, then you may hunt. And let not the hatred of another people; because they had barred you from the Restricted Temple; make you aggress. And help each other in piety and righteousness, and do not help each other in sin and aggression. And be aware of Allah, for the retribution of Allah is severe.

O believers, do not make Restricted Full Moon HALAAL?

And there are many. We have change from 4 months understanding to 3 months and from 2 to 1.

The reading of the word -shahr- seems to depend on the context - where the -shahr- is related to the four restricted full moons - then the longer time of 3 x 29.5 + 3 = 91.5 days is referred to.

When the -shahr ramadan- is mentioned - then there is reference only to the scorching full moon itself.
Since the Koran does not state that there are more than one -shahr ramadan- in a year.
This is different form the restricted full moon - according to the Koran there are four of them in a year.

My understanding of 'ayyaamam ma'doodaat' is also three as per AlQuraan.

Why do you take 'Ahillati' as 'Hilaal' in 2189? 'Ahillati' is a derivative of 'Uhilla' in 2173, how will you translate 2173 then?

Correct that you mention the meaning of -hilal-.
Depending on the context a word can have a different meaning - the meaning of verse 2173 needs not to change because of any reading of verse 2189.

The word -ahillati- in 2189 is generally translated as new crescent moons, but also as phases of the moon in general.
In both meanings of the word the argument remains valid that only the communal event the -hajj- was regulated by the (several) -hilal- and not the communal fast.
If you take the meaning of phases of the moon as the only right one of reading of the word -ahillati-, the -shahr ramadan- could only be just one phase of the moon and has still nothing to do with the phases of the moon - in plural of more than two, as mentioned in verse 2189.

Scorching Moon? I did not see any such moon yet. And...

2185
2185 A month of aspiration, in which the Quraan was revealed; as a guide to the people and clarities from the guidance and the Criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. Allah wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify Allah for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

So, who ever witnesses 'AlShahr' then he should fast IT? How can we fast The Full Moon?

The moon can be witnessed as full during a period of three days - you can check this via a mooncalendar - three days with at least 98% coverage.
Actually the moon is never perfect full from earth's perspective - otherwise there would be a lunar-eclipse.
Three days are compatible with the word -ma'doodat- of verse 2184.
So it is very possible to witness and fast the full moon.

I am sure there is a difference in meanings of 'Shahr' and 'AlShahr', if you notice brother, 2185 used both the words, why only 'Shahr' with 'Ramadhan' and why 'AlShahr'? Lets see how Allah guides us, we don't need to rush to misguide ourselves.

May be this is a relevant point.
For now I could say - the wording -shahr ramadan- refers to the one special -scorching full moon- in which the Koran descended. And that -el shahr- refers to each -scorching moon- in which we may celebrate and remember that God has given mankind the perfect guidance - the Koran.

I agree we need not rush to misguide ourselves - but the fact is that Islam has been distorted throughout centuries by the acceptance of the system of -ahadeeth-. The best way seems to be, to study the Koran as if it just arrived on earth - to study it with as little as possible prejudice - also regarding the so called islamic calendar.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[mmkhan]

Salaam brother,

The reading of the word -shahr- seems to depend on the context - where the -shahr- is related to the four restricted full moons - then the longer time of 3 x 29.5 + 3 = 91.5 days is referred to.

There I disagree. I don't believe that any meaning of a word of AlQuraan depends on the context, this is what the so called ulamas say, and they change the meanings as per their requirement. If we do the same, we are no more different from them.

BTW, I don't understand what means 'restricted full moons', can you please elaborate?

Correct that you mention the meaning of -hilal-.
Depending on the context a word can have a different meaning - the meaning of verse 2173 needs not to change because of any reading of verse 2189.

nope

As per my knowledge that Allah gave me I found each word of AlQuraan has a single meaning. Meaning will never change.

The word -ahillati- in 2189 is generally translated as new crescent moons, but also as phases of the moon in general.
In both meanings of the word the argument remains valid that only the communal event the -hajj- was regulated by the (several) -hilal- and not the communal fast.
If you take the meaning of phases of the moon as the only right one of reading of the word -ahillati-, the -shahr ramadan- could only be just one phase of the moon and has still nothing to do with the phases of the moon - in plural of more than two, as mentioned in verse 2189.

I still did not get the meaning of 'Shahr' as 'Full Moon' or 'Phases of Moon' or any other except 'Month' and it seems simple and clear to me yet.

The moon can be witnessed as full during a period of three days - you can check this via a mooncalendar - three days with at least 98% coverage.
Actually the moon is never perfect full from earth's perspective - otherwise there would be a lunar-eclipse.
Three days are compatible with the word -ma'doodat- of verse 2184.
So it is very possible to witness and fast the full moon.

I understand the 3 days fasting during Ramadhan, that is OK about 98% of coverage, but not sure about Full Moon still. I have to check that with the help of Allah, inshaAllah.

May be this is a relevant point.
For now I could say - the wording -shahr ramadan- refers to the one special -scorching full moon- in which the Koran descended. And that -el shahr- refers to each -scorching moon- in which we may celebrate and remember that God has given mankind the perfect guidance - the Koran.

As I read from above posts people are getting back to 'event for counting time' so what is the different if we take it a month? Is there any problem it translating 'Shahr' as 'Month'?

And can you please explain the above red part.

I agree we need not rush to misguide ourselves - but the fact is that Islam has been distorted throughout centuries by the acceptance of the system of -ahadeeth-. The best way seems to be, to study the Koran as if it just arrived on earth - to study it with as little as possible prejudice - also regarding the so called islamic calendar.

Agreed. And that is what I said above in the beginning of my post.

May Allah guide us all to His path and increase us all in true knowledge pr
Mohammed M. Khan