Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Salaam brother ayman,
Please read the original Arabic.
In 2185 you will see (and complete the count).
In 2196 you will see (this is a complete ten).There are possibilities otherwise.
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in 2185 is referring to those who are sick or travelling, they have to complete their count.
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is just the counting from other days.
If you notice, the key words here are not but for fasting. So, is not referring to 10 but 3 as per 2203.
What do you think brother?
May Allah guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
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Salaam,
In Arabic it is normal to associate an action with the event that marks it. For example, the time of "fajr"/dawn is an instant such as 506AM but we say "salat alfajr" to denote the "salat" marked by "fajr"/dawn.
I agree with you.
May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
ok let us go back few hundred years ,where traveling by day in the dessert was so hot,but even the great danger is that traveling by day you make you loose your way for there in the dessert all looked the same,sand dunes every where are similar.
but at night the we do have the same problem no way to go but there is no sun and less heat ,but wait a second the old trick is to use the stars my freind for navigation.
yes it must be that the stars where used as signs for travel so that we dont loose our way,so they must know about those stars,
wow,aint that some thing.
then if we observe closer we see that the stars sometimes are together in one night especially in winter summer and fall season,they do share the sky,the north stars the south starts west and east. in many cases during the year they are together.
but spring has something very weird to it,it has four stars that each last one month and they dont come together,they are alone.
each star is on its own,or a group of stars in may is different then the group of stars in june and they dont appear together at the same time in any given period,that is why they are called "HURUM" each month in the spring there is HURUM stars that come alone and dont interact with the other stars.and they do share equality in length of time they only last a month each not more not less.
SUBHANA ALLAH ,even a kid then would know the stars else he will get lost in the dessert if needed to travel so it was one of the few things they needed to know.
but you can keep with your moon if you want !
as for my proof of the quran ,well not alot of ayas about ashhur and al shahr ,look it up really does not need to be stated i can write them down for you ,since they are very few ,but i am sure you know the ayas.you have been mentioning them all along. -
I would say, even dawn is a period, stretching from , first light to sun rise.
Yes, but even if we take it as the period from first light to sunrise there is nothing in the great reading telling us to do the "salat" exactly from first light to sunrise. So if you start your "salat" just before sunrise and it stretches for an hour after sunrise, it is still "salat al fajr". So again, the action is simply called by its marker.
Peace,
Ayman
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There are possibilities otherwise.
- in 2185 is referring to those who are sick or travelling, they have to complete their count.
- is just the counting from other days.
If you notice, the key words here are not but for fasting. So, is not referring to 10 but 3 as per 2203.
What do you think brother?
May the god guide us all to the straight path.
Brother, it is already completely understood from the expression " (count from other days) that it is the same count of the missed days.
Also, please read the passage to the end and see that the following three actions are tied together
You shall complete the count, and magnify the god for what he has guided you and perhaps you would be grateful.
To suggest that completing the count is only for those who are sick or traveling is to imply that magnifying the god and being grateful is also only for the sick and traveling! This is why no translator has interpreted it like this.
2203 doesn't say that ayyam maadoodat (few days) is three days. We can deduce from 2203 that maadoodat is more than two. 2196 makes it clear that it is 3-10 with the 10 being the complete/max.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam Ayam,but what do you mean by salat.
i know this could be another discussion then intended,but what is salat?
how is it performed ,what is done ,and how is it done,what is to be said ,how is perfomed.
as for the fasting for haj is different from fasting in ramadan,it is all connected to knowing what is ramadan,
i think much thought is needed,and the only way to find out is through simplicity,ALLah is all knowing.
salam alaykum. -
Yes, but even if we take it as the period from first light to sunrise there is nothing in the great reading telling us to do the "salat" exactly from first light to sunrise. So if you start your "salat" just before sunrise and it stretches for an hour after sunrise, it is still "salat al fajr". So again, the action is simply called by its marker.
-Fajr- and -isha- are rather time-frames in which the -salat- should be done.
So the beginning and ending of these periods could be seen as markers - not only the start of a period.
Verse 4103 indicates that the -salat- is at prescribed times.
The time-frames of -salat- are given by the Koran.
-Salaat el fajr- should be done only during -fajr-, that is the koranic time-frame.
If one crosses the time-border while doing the -salat- (-taraf-, verse 11114) then one can not be sure if the part after sunset still can be called -salat el fajr-, if one trangresses consciously a clear time-frame frome the Koran.In analogy - the fasting of -shahr ramadan-, verse 2185 clearly gives the time-frame of the fast - the duration of the full moon itself - 3 days.
2185 ... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it...
The start of the full moon is the marker of the beginning of the fast - the end of the full moon is the marker of the end of the fast.
Within this time-frame there are periods that one should fast (from the start of -fajr- until -lail-) and that one should not fast (the night of the fast).Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Brother, it is already completely understood from the expression " (count from other days) that it is the same count of the missed days.
Also, please read the passage to the end and see that the following three actions are tied togetherYou shall complete the count, and magnify the god for what he has guided you and perhaps you would be grateful.
To suggest that completing the count is only for those who are sick or traveling is to imply that magnifying the god and being grateful is also only for the sick and traveling! This is why no translator has interpreted it like this.
This way of reasoning seems not to be binding.
In verse 2185 two groups of peope are mentioned
1 - the ones that fast the -shahr ramadan-
2 - the ones that fast other days for compensation - they have to fast then a count of other days.This does not imply or exclude that the first group had to count as well - the first group could simply keep on with the moon or read from a mooncalendar. They could can also count the number of days of a full moon.
This seems not to be a structural issue.
The real issue is until which number the count should be 3 or 10.Both groups can magnify God and remember the gift of the Koran to mankind - only the timing is different.
2203 doesn't say that ayyam maadoodat (few days) is three days. We can deduce from 2203 that maadoodat is more than two. 2196 makes it clear that it is 3-10 with the 10 being the complete/max.
2203 Remember God during a number of days/ayyam ma'doodat. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous ...
We can learn from this verse that the standard number of days of participation to the -hajj- was 3 days.
It was allowed to participate one day less or to prolong this period to a number above 3.
Of course a small number above 3 can also be named -ma'doodat- as can be seen in verse 2196 - a number until 10.The issue remains that verse 2196 does not state that all the complete counts -ma'doodat- should go until 10.
When the Koran does not state in any verse that - all the complete counts -madoodat- should go until 10 -, then we should not make this a general rule.It is interesting that verse 2196 states that the communal fast of a special group of people during the -hajj- was 3 days.
If the -hajj- started with the full moon - there could be an analogy with verse 2185.
The 7 other days that are mentioned in verse 2196 had to be fasted individually at different days, depending on the duration of the way home.It depends on the context what -completing the count ma'doodat- means.
In verse 2196 a count of 10.
In verse 2185 a count of 3 - since the wording ... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it... (full moon is a period of three days).Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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Salaam TS and all,
2203 Remember God during a number of days/ayyam ma'doodat. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous ...
We can learn from this verse that the standard number of days of participation to the -hajj- was 3 days.
It was allowed to participate one day less or to prolong this period to a number above 3.
Of course a small number above 3 can also be named -ma'doodat- as can be seen in verse 2196 - a number until 10.The issue remains that verse 2196 does not state that all the complete counts -ma'doodat- should go until 10.
When the Koran does not state in any verse that - all the complete counts -madoodat- should go until 10 -, then we should not make this a general rule.I totally agree with you and this is exactly the way how I understand it.
It is interesting that verse 2196 states that the communal fast of a special group of people during the -hajj- was 3 days.
If the -hajj- started with the full moon - there could be an analogy with verse 2185.
The 7 other days that are mentioned in verse 2196 had to be fasted individually at different days, depending on the duration of the way home.It depends on the context what -completing the count ma'doodat- means.
In verse 2196 a count of 10.
In verse 2185 a count of 3 - since the wording ... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it... (full moon is a period of three days).bravo
Nicely said brother, mashaAllah.
May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam ayman,
Brother, it is already completely understood from the expression " (count from other days) that it is the same count of the missed days.
Also, please read the passage to the end and see that the following three actions are tied together
You shall complete the count, and magnify the god for what he has guided you and perhaps you would be grateful.
To suggest that completing the count is only for those who are sick or traveling is to imply that magnifying the god and being grateful is also only for the sick and traveling! This is why no translator has interpreted it like this.
Yes, I agree with you brother. 'Waw' between them clarifies that it is not in relation with only who are sick or travelling.
I understood that is simply mentions 'so, counting is from other days', clearly mentioned for those who are sick or travelling, and is 'and to complete the count' is referring to both who fast during Ramadhan and who are sick and travelling.2203 doesn't say that ayyam maadoodat (few days) is three days. We can deduce from 2203 that maadoodat is more than two. 2196 makes it clear that it is 3-10 with the 10 being the complete/max.
Now, how do we understand how much is the count? We have look together 2196 and 2203. Please note that 2196 does not use the word that means count, it only uses the word that means 'complete', this does not mean that whenever the word 'complete' is used that is referring to 'completing the count of fast', but it simply means complete as in
53
53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than Allah, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have approved submission as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.'Complete' is used without counting.
2233
2233 And the divorced mothers are allowed to suckle their children two full years, if they wish to complete the suckling. And the man for whom the child is born is responsible for both their provisions and clothing equitably. A soul is not burdened except with what it can bear. No mother shall be harmed because of her child, nor shall a father be harmed because of his child. And for the guardian is the same requirement. So if they wish to separate out of mutual agreement and counsel, then there is no sin upon them. And if you want to hire nursing mothers, then there is no sin upon you if you return what you have been given equitably. And be aware of Allah, and know that Allah is watching over what you do.Here period of 'completion' is two years.
1625
1625 They will carry their burdens in full on the Day of Resurrection, and also from the burdens of those whom they misguided without knowledge. Evil indeed is what they bear.Again 'complete' is used without the number of counting.
This is how the word is used in 2196 without the word counting. As 2233 refers to the only 'completion of period mentioned in it', 2196 is also refers to the only 'completion of period mentioned in it' and it has nothing to do with Ramadhan. This is how I understand it brother.
This is clear to me, but still my old question 'Shahr' being 'Full moon' remains
May Allah guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
reading from the blog here one can see that we are only trying to find out yes ,but what we should really do is simply take the quran literaly.
meaning word for word.
the three day fast is done in haj while the ramadan should be fasted as a shahr.
it is never said in the quran that ramadan is fasted for three days.remmember we dont need a scientist to explain our quran than we are in the same black age moslems are today.
i would suggest to go back to word shahr.how did any one conclude that it is the full moon when the quran did not state so.
i dont find proof it is the full moon.i would say that i will exclude that meaning for now ,until further evidence is brought from the quran.
please concluding is good ,but any thing not from the quran then it is not right to really expand on it.
so i would say the full moon prophecy is not right.
thank you and salam alaykum, -
2203 Remember God during a number of days/ayyam ma'doodat. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous ...
We can learn from this verse that the standard number of days of participation to the -hajj- was 3 days.
It was allowed to participate one day less or to prolong this period to a number above 3.
Of course a small number above 3 can also be named -ma'doodat- as can be seen in verse 2196 - a number until 10.quote from mmkhan
Now, how do we understand how much is the count? We have look together 2196 and 2203. Please note that 2196 does not use the word that means count, it only uses the word that means 'complete', this does not mean that whenever the word 'complete' is used that is referring to 'completing the count of fast', end quoteSince this finding of brother mmkhan I have to correct the assumption that a -count ma'doodat- can be until 10, according to the Koran.
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Verse 2196 does not contain the word -'adat-.
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Verse 2203 contains a form of the word -'adat-.
So one can only say from verse 2196 that -ayyam ma'doodat- means 3 as a standard and can mean 2 or somewhat more than 3.
From this verse one can not deduce that one could stay 10 days during the -hajj-.Some reasons for the assumption that verse 2196 does not explain verse 2185 in any way
- Verse 2196 regulates the fast of only a special group of participants of the -hajj- and not the fast of the believers in general, during the communal fast of -shahr ramadan-.
- Verse 2196 rather indicates a private count until 7 so that one can add this up to the 3 communal days fasted during the -hajj-, that makes of course a complete 10.
- Verse 2185 contains the wording -completing the count-, verse 2196 does not contain the word -count-.
Truthseeker
Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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peace, how do you determine that full moon is for 3 days? why not 5 , or 7 ?
Verses 2184 and 2185 contain two requirements of the duration of the fast of -shahr ramadan-
Verse 2184 informs us that the fast lasts -ayyaman ma'doodatin-, the plural of more than two.
Verse 2185 informs us that the fast is within the time-frame (between the two markers of the beginning and ending of the full moon) of the full moon.- ... Therefore, those of you who witnessed the -full moon- shall fast it...
The full moon is from earth's perspective never really full - when the sun, earth and moon are perfectly in line, there would be a lunar-eclipse.
Watching with the eye - a coverage of 98% is seen as a total full moon.
A mooncalendar shows that a coverage of 98% lasts about three days.
It is noticable with the eye at the fourth day, the first day after the full moon that it is not full anymore.Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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ok let us say it is the full moon for now ,but which full moon will that be.
like what is the time. is it the summer as claimed in this blog,i dont think there is enough proof.
salam -
ok let us say it is the full moon for now ,but which full moon will that be.
like what is the time. is it the summer as claimed in this blog,i dont think there is enough proof.The Koran indicates that the -shahr ramadan- is during the warmest period of the year.
As can be read in the first post of this thread - the article.quote ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no evidence that there was a "pre-quranic" month named Ramadhan. The common noun "ramadhan" means "scorching heat". The only derivative from "R-M-Dh" in the great reading is the word "ramadhan", which occurs only once. Hence, there is no way to compare directly the meaning with how it is used in other verses.However, one can indirectly verify the meaning. Verses such as 2217 indicate that there was big fighting during "al-shahr al-7aram". We also know that the whole context of chapter 9 (or the second half of the very long chapter 8, since the "bism Allah" are the only separators) is about fighting the idolaters who broke their treaty. A sign in verse 981 indicates that the time of a particularly big fight that the hypocrites were fearful from was a hot time of the year. Shortly after 982, 986 talks about a chapter descending at that time and from 2185 we know that "shahr ramadhan" is when the great reading was descended so that provides an additional link between "shahr ramadhan" and "al-shahr al-7aram". Hence, circumstantial evidence from the great reading supports that "al-shahr al-7aram"/"shahr ramadhan" is a hot time of the year and confirms the dictionary's meaning.
Now 2185 contains the complete information that we need to know when to start the abstinence. It is the complete information irrespective of what calendar system each nation or group uses because it doesn't rely on any calendar system and instead relies on easily witnessed cosmic phenomena.
When does scorching heat begin to take place? The time of scorching heat starts after the summer solstice. This is the time when the sun is at its highest point and hence the shadow is smallest. Verse 2545 talks about the indicative relationship between the sun and the shadow. It is after the summer solstice that the weather starts to become hot.
end quote --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------This information indicates a fast during the warmest period of the year.
This seems to be the best way of reading - in the Koran until now is not found any compelling proof for the fasting of the full moon -ramadan- during another time of the year.
The word -ramadan-, meaning -scorching heat- seems to be compelling in this matter.
Any other option requires koranic proof that indicates otherwise.Verse 2185 indicates to fast the -shahr ramadan- itself, a period of the full moon - three days.
Three holydays to fast, rest and sleep (apart from the middle prayer) from -fajr- until -layl- and to break the fast, be active during the -layl- until -fajr-.Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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i seem to agree most with truth seeker,
ramadan after autumn solice the full moon.three days
and they are a time for prayer,
this is the best explanation i can go with i think.thakn you .
one question when is ashhur hurum.and al shahr el haram.and if el shahr was only full moon then they used to stop fighting for three days and then go back to fighting,so it is four month with three days of nonfighting in every month.i dontknow but that does not seem to make sense.
i dont think i want to trust in dictionaries they seem to be the most misleading.
as for what kind of fasting.in al haj is it fasting from food or speaking.it is not stated and how can you tell.
i know ramadan is fasting from food for it is said to do so.but after haj is it food or speaking that we must obstain from ,please if you can reflect on these.
that remains for an answer yet.
thank you
salam -
ramadan after autumn solice the full moon.three days
The most scorching heat and the most red moon appear in Arabia in general after summer-solstice, not during the autumn.
The first full moon after june 21 seems to be the correct timing.one question when is ashhur hurum.and al shahr el haram.and if el shahr was only full moon then they used to stop fighting for three days and then go back to fighting,so it is four month with three days of nonfighting in every month.i dontknow but that does not seem to make sense.
The timing of the four -restricted full moons- seems to need more investigation.
There seems not be found compelling koranic evidence for the timing of them.When four full moons are mentioned together - then the days between them are rather to be included.
The four -restriced full moons- 3 x 29.5 + 3 days makes about 91.5 days - including the duration of three days of the last full moon.
The first day of the first full moon could be the marker of the start of the -restricted full moons-.
The last day of the last full moon could be the marker of the end of the -restricted full moons-.as for what kind of fasting.in al haj is it fasting from food or speaking.it is not stated and how can you tell.
i know ramadan is fasting from food for it is said to do so.but after haj is it food or speaking that we must obstain from ,please if you can reflect on these.
that remains for an answer yet.You are right that the type of fast can depend on the context - the fast of Maryam - 1926.
But during the -hajj- the fast seems to be at least concerning the food - since verse 2196 contains rulings about the subject of offerings - food-provision.
It seems hard and not very relevant - not to speak during three days of the -hajj- and even more when one arrived at home and one would have to be silent another 7 days.Peace,
TruthseekerDisclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.
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The issue remains that verse 2196 does not state that all the complete counts -ma'doodat- should go until 10.
It does clearly state that the "10" is complete. Why did the god say that it is 10 and "complete"? The god knows that any idiot can add 3+7 and thus saying 3+7 would have been 100% sufficient if what you are saying is even remotely true.
When the Koran does not state in any verse that - all the complete counts -madoodat- should go until 10 -, then we should not make this a general rule.
This is because you assume that "maadoodat" can be anything. Maadoodat is 3-10. The fact that 2196 states that 10 is complete further confirms this.
It is interesting that verse 2196 states that the communal fast of a special group of people during the -hajj- was 3 days.
If the -hajj- started with the full moon - there could be an analogy with verse 2185.The "hajj" does indeed start with the full-moon.
The 7 other days that are mentioned in verse 2196 had to be fasted individually at different days, depending on the duration of the way home.
You are once again not reading the complete passage until the end as you did with
Please read until the end of the passage. It clearly says that waiting to get back is only for those whose family are not in the inviolable institution of obedience
This (7 days when you return) is for the one whose family are not in the inviolable institution of obedience and be forethoughtful of the god and know that the god is severe in retribution.
So for those whose family is in the inviolable institution of obedience the fast would be a continuous period for the complete 10 days. While for those whose family are not, the fast would also be the complete 10 days but they would be broken up into 3 and 7 days.
Peace,
Ayman
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i still think that our answers are speculative,can we find a more direct answer.
i hope we can,but pls we need that ,stateing the scorching heat of that time,well where is it reflected in the quran,as for a meaning for the word ramadan,it is only dictionaries and we will not take that into account.
let us look further into ramadan.
it is said in the quarn "shahru ramadan ilazi unzilla fihi ilquran ,hudan linnah ,wa bayinatin mina al huda wal furqan"
here there are two clear words " HUDA and FURQAN"they will lead us to what and when is Ramadan.
it is also said in the Quran that ,we where given the stars for Huda.
"litahtadu biha"
and Allah knows best,
please reflect,let us use the quran and not any dictionary for reflection
salam tell me what you think,let us look into this further.i hope to look deeper into FURQAN and Huda and "kutiba alaykum el siyam kama kutiba ala ilazeena min qablikum "
all this must be taken into account.
al shahr is not the full moon.
for allah has given precise terms in the quran ,no puzzles.
this must be looked into further. i do appreciate all your effort,and i do take it seriously,thank you all.
but i am still looking let us keep our faith that Allah will give us guidance.
salam