Basic Questions on Quranists
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Welcome Saiad / Gabriel welcome
I am a professor of Islamic Studies, focusing on the Quran and the religious context of the 7th century Middle East. In scholarly terms I am convinced that the Quran is an ancient text, and that the hadith (and tafsir) come from a later period in Islamic history (at a time when religious rivalry with other groups -- Christians especially -- shaped their development).
Agree..
In personal terms I am a Catholic Christian and a believer in God.
In this society.. the default convention is it doesn't matter much on which member of the sect that you're coming from...
I have a high estimation of the Quran, and for all of these reasons I am interested in the Quranist movement. I'd be grateful for some insight regarding the movement. First, what is its relationship with the Submitters movement?
There could be some and there could also be none.. this is actually irrelevant..
Second, does the English term "Quranist" or "Quran-alone" refer to the same group(s) for which the Arabic term "Qur'aniyyun" is used?
Maybe yes and maybe no... again this is irrelevant.. people can label other people many names and the names shall have different meanings to many people as well.
Third, would Qur'anists generally be open to scholarly studies that involve a discussion of the Quran's relationship with other religious literature of the Middle East (for example, the story of Ashab al-Kahf and the Syriac Christian story of the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus)? In other words -- would Quranists allow the possibility that the Quran can be better understood by reading earlier religious literature, or would these storts of studies by frowned upon?
The answer is DEFINITELY!!
And not only with 'other religious literature of the middle east' but with 'other religious literature around the world' as well...Salam / Peace
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GOD, Almighty, Has sent thousands of messengers throughout the history of mankind to different communities and nations, all over the world. We know just a handful of them through the scriptures. On the other hand we have only a handful of scriptures. So, if all messengers were supposed to had received books/scriptures from GOD, then we ought to have numerous scriptures on our hands, and not just a handful. That is why all messengers can not be PROPHETS, but all prophets are messengers.
436 We have sent many a prophet to the previous generations.
436 Ve kem erselna min nebiyyin fil evvelnthe roll of a messenger is to preach the existing scriptures on hand
The word messenger (rasool) is used for s.o who carries messages of s.o. else. Preaching the existing scriptures is not carrying messages (revelation) to others.
Just look at 381 to see RK is a fake messenger
381 GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Confirming a scripture can only be through another scripture
33 He sent down to you (Mohammad) this scripture (Quran), truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.
546 Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.
etc etc.
Apparently, messenger of covenant is Mohammad not RK. laugh
covenant told in 381 is not the same covenant told in 337.
Don't let this kurdish-american creature fool you brothers..it may be dangerous for you, especially for those of you whose ages are over 40. rotfl
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You render you work in vain, when you include racist remarks, ggg.
Other than that I think most free-minders agree with this post. -
Don't let this kurdish-american creature fool you brothers..it may be dangerous for you, especially for those of you whose ages are over 40. rotfl
SERIOUSLY??!! This guy has still not gotten a moderator's attention?? It's the second time - God damn it!
3022 Among His signs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and your colors. In that are signs for the world/knowlegeable.
3336 It is not for an acknowledging man or acknowledging woman, if God and His messenger issue any command, that they have any choice in their decision. Anyone who disobeys God and His messenger, he has gone far astray.
4910 Those who acknowledge are but brothers; so reconcile between your brothers, and be aware of God, that you may receive mercy.
4911 O you who acknowledge, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than them. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than them. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining acknowledgement. Anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
4912 O you who acknowledge, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. Do not spy on one another, nor shall you gossip one another. Would one of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Compassionate.
4913 O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Ever-aware.
Now on to the ignorant's points...
Just look at 381 to see RK is a fake messenger
381 GOD took a covenant from the prophets, saying, "I will give you the scripture and wisdom. Afterwards, a messenger will come to confirm all existing scriptures. You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you."
Confirming a scripture can only be through another scripture
33 He sent down to you (Mohammad) this scripture (Quran), truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel.
546 Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.
etc etc.
Faulty logic.
Confirming the scripture does not have to be done with a scripture - you are excluding this option. Muhammad was a prophet and he was OBVIOUSLY part of the covenant mentioned in 381.Why would both messengers and prophets receive books/scriptures? What sense does that make if there is a difference between the two? Clearly, there is
2252 We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, without having the devil interfere with his wishes. God then overrides what the devil has cast, and God secures His signs. God is knower, wise.
The simple difference is that each prophet receives the scripture
2213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He sent down with them the book
More about this here.
Peace
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The messenger spoken in 337 and 381 could have never been Muhammad since he took the SAME COVENANT as the other Messenger's
381 God took a covenant from the prophets "For what I have given you of the book and wisdom, then a messenger will come to you authenticating what is with you. You will acknowledge him and support him." He said, "Do you testify, and agree to this burden?" they said, "We testify." He said, "Then bear witness, and I am with you bearing witness.
337 When We took from the prophets their covenant. From you, and from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus the son of Mary; We took from them a strong covenant.
Hence if he (Muhammad) took the same covenant it is quite obvious that a Messenger was suppose to come AFTER Muhammad to authenticate what he had (the Quran). The Quran's proof of authenticity in my view was the 19 based code which authenticates the number of verses 6346 verses 19334, the number of sura's 114 Sura's verses 196, the number of times God is mentioned in the Quran 2698 times 19*142, the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Sura's.....To view first hand the mathematical miracle behind the 29 initialed Sura's go to this link http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/english/index.html
And alot of other things as well...
I will like to think GGG that you know by now that the translations that have brackets are the interpretation of the translator and not what is in the original Arabic of the Quran.
The fact that Dr.Rashad Khalifa made mistakes in interpreting the Quran is completely irrelevant. It did bother me at first but then i remembered something that the Quran said ....God is the teacher of the Quran not messenger of God not prophet of God but God himself is the teacher (Sura 552 & Sura 7516-19). The submitter's in Masjid Tucson have blindly followed Dr.Khalifa's teachings (footnotes & appendices which he himself updated when he learnt something new) without verifying it themselves. So in retrospect they are doing exactly the same thing like those who follow the Hadith and Sunna. They have failed to realized that God is the teacher of the Quran and not his messenger. In my view it was a clear test for them. Sura 292
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People who believe the only Infallible text to be the Quran, written by Muhammed.
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People who believe the only Infallible text to be the Quran, written by Muhammed.
AlQuraan is written by Mohammed (AS)?
Can you please share aayaat(s) on this? Please don't take me wrong, I am in search of it and at the moment I don't believe that AlQuraan was written by Prophet Mohammed (AS).
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us all to His only path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
People who believe the only Infallible text to be the Quran, written by Muhammed.
Salaam,
You are correct 100%. The text of The Qur'aan , for the FIRST TIME, was written down by the hands of Prophet Muhammad himself, pbuh, but 100% of it was inspired by GOD, Almighty, Himself and no one else. GOD also has said in The same Qur'aan that, He has surely sent it down Himself and He will surely safeguard it. That is why it is INFALLIBLE, and that is why despite 1400 years of history, there is still only ONE version of The Qur'aan out there.
And please do not bring up the age old argument around the written versions of The Qur'aan. The Qur'aan is ORIGINALLY an oral, and not a written book. Just like when you listen to a recording, not visually reading a written text. The written texts of The Qur'aan have kept changing ever since. The changes, for the most part, is its format, and not its context.
Peace,
Khalil -
Of course, the Quran is what Muhammad wrote, what came to his mind, his reform, and what he copied from Jewish and Christian scriptures. There is nothing divine about it.
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Of course, the Quran is what Muhammad wrote, what came to his mind, his reform, and what he copied from Jewish and Christian scriptures. There is nothing divine about it.
Mr . Muziar Ali I will like to propose a challenge for you unless of course you find yourself inadequate to do it yourself. If the Quran isn?t divine as you claim then I will like for you to write a book with the below information. The book must have the same number of verses (6346) and it must be in Arabic. Plus it must make sense AND contain information about the previous scriptures (you can use the bible if you like). Write it yourself and then come here on this forum again when your finished (which may be never). Happy Writing )
Oh if you can?t do it yourself why don?t you ask some of your friends to help you )
PS The above is just a SMALL fraction of the signs contained in this book http//www.quranmiracles.com/
So a man from the desert had the time to count ALL of this and write a book WITH NO CALCULATOR!!! WOOOOW! Some people are so stupid. Common sense is not common among any generation of people. There is a difference between reading a book and studying a book.
Word occurrence Number of Occurrence
Days 30
A day 365
World 115
Hereafter 115
Mercy 79
Guide 79
Hot 4
Cold 4
Rich 26(13x2)
Poor 13
Adam 25
Jesus 25
Tree 26
Plant 26
Final Destiny 28
Forever 28
Benefit 50
Corruption 50
1.There are 114 chapters in the Quran, or 19 x 6.
2.The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19 x 334.
3.Then you add the 30 different numbers which are mentioned in the Quran's text (i.e. one God, two brothers, etc.), the total is 162146 or 19 x 8534.
4.The first statement in Quran, "In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful" consists of 19 Arabic letters. Known as the `Basmalah', it prefaces every chapter except Chapter 9.
5.Though missing from Chapter 9, exactly 19 chapters later the Basmalah occurs twice. Chapter 27 has this statement at its beginning and in verse 30. This makes the total number of times the Basmalah occurs in the Quran 114, or 19 x 6.
6.Since there are 19 chapters between the missing Basmalah and the extra one, the sum of those chapter numbers is a multiple of 19. (The sum of any 19 consecutive numbers is a multiple of 19.) But the total, 342, is also the exact number of words between the two occurrences of the Basmalah in Chapter 27. This number, 342, is 19 x 18.
7.Every word in the Basmalah occurs throughout the Quran a number of times which is a multiple of 19.
8.The very first revelation that was given to the prophet of Islam, Mohammed, came as 19 words.
9.The total number of letters making up the 19 words of the first revelation is 76, 19 x 4.
10.Though they were the first revelation, these verses are placed at the beginning of Chapter 96. This chapter is atop the last 19 chapters.
11.Chapter 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, or 19 x 16.
12.The last chapter revealed (Chapter 110) has 19 words, and its first verse is 19 letters.
13.God's name in Arabic, `Allah,' occurs in the Quran 2698 times, or 19 x 142.
14.If you add the numbers of the verses where `Allah' occurs, the total is 118123 or 19 x 6217.
15.The main message in the Quran is that there is only One God. The number of times that the word `one' is used to refer to this concept of One God is 19.
16.The word `Quran' occurs in 38 different chapters, or 19 x 2.
17.The total number of times `the Quran' is mentioned is 57, 19 x 3.
18.Within the 114 chapters of the Quran, 29 of them begin with the Quranic initials discussed earlier. Intermixed between the first initialed chapter (Chapter 2) and the last initialed chapter (Chapter 6 are 38 non-initialed chapters, or 19 x 2.
19.In that same group of chapters, from Chapter 2 to Chapter 68, there are 19 alternating sets of initialed and non-initialed chapters.
20.The total number of verses making up this group of chapters is 5263, 19 x 277.
21.Within this group of chapters there are also 2641 occurrences of the word `Allah', or 19 x 139. Of course, that leaves 57, or 19 x 3, occurrences of that word outside of this group.
22.If you add the chapter and verse numbers of the 57 occurrences of `Allah' outside the initialed section, the total is 2432 or 19 x 128.
23.There are a large number of discoveries having to do with the numbers of the chapters and verses. Many of them are very complex and interrelated. Here is a simple one to give you a feel for these discoveries If you add the numbers assigned to all the chapters, plus the numbers assigned to all of the verses, plus the number of verses in the Quran, the total is 346199 or 19 x 19 x 959.
24.If you look at the initialed chapters separately and add the chapter numbers, verse numbers and number of verses, the total is 190133, 19 x 10007. Of course it follows that the total for the uninitialed chapters, 156066, is also divisible by 19.
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And of course, Muhammed was no idiot, was a brilliant dude like da vinci, always putting patterns for people to see. P
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Of course, the Quran is what Muhammad wrote, what came to his mind, his reform, and what he copied from Jewish and Christian scriptures. There is nothing divine about it.
The red highlighting above is from me.
Hearing this from you, an atheist, if I?m not mistaken, is really commendable. Why then you do not consider Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, as the most influential leader in the history of mankind, and start learning from him? You cannot deny the ideology that he was preaching 1400 years ago is still growing quite vibrantly on a global scale, compared with other ones, especially the modern materialistic ideologies which in a short time lost momentum and turned back 180 degrees.
Maybe you do believe that the people are deaf, dumb, and blind, or as one of your colleagues used to say; religion is the opium of the masses.
Anyways. What you are saying is nothing new regarding Muhammad copying from the books before him. These sorts of ?accusations? have been around ever since Muhammad started his movement. He constantly was accused of being taught and dictated by others. See verse 255 among others.
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And they say Fables of the men of old which he hath had written down so that they are dictated to him morn and evening. (5)Peace,
Khalil -
Hearing this from you, an atheist, if I?m not mistaken, is really commendable. Why then you do not consider Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, as the most influential leader in the history of mankind, and start learning form him? You cannot deny the ideology that he was preaching 1400 years ago is still growing quite vibrantly on a global scale, compared with other ones, especially the modern materialistic ideologies which their movements lost momentum and turned back 180 degrees.
Maybe you do believe that the people are deaf, dumb, and blind, or as one of your colleagues used to say; religion is the opium of the masses.
Anyways. What you are saying is nothing new regarding Muhammad copying from the books before him. These sorts of ?accusations? have been around ever since Muhammad started his movement. He constantly was accused of being taught and dictated by others. See verse 255 among others.
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And they say Fables of the men of old which he hath had written down so that they are dictated to him morn and evening. (5)Peace,
KhalilYou cannot prove to be the existence of the supernatural because proof deals with the existence of the natural. Muhammad was a great reformer, a humanist, but it is very sad to see his followers still following the same superstitious beliefs that had passed from earlier generations, from scriptures such as the bible.
Religions grow for many reasons. Why many people become religious is clear. Because their observations of reality are weak, they want to lead a good life because they want to achieve a particular objective. (which in the Abrahamic religions is going to Heaven). Faith is good for the self, it is not a solution but it gives people a psychological feeling of well being. Prayer is not a solution.
http//a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/196243_173099566070919_100001126299436_336964_5378620_n.jpg
Muhammed undoubtedly copied from the Jewish scriptures as we see traces of them in the Quran. Mostly the historical data or mythological stories written in the bible at that time. The story of moses and the story of Jesus for example.
I am a quranist, in the sense that I exclude the belief in anything divine, but still carry out the system inscribed in the Quran.
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You cannot prove to be the existence of the supernatural because proof deals with the existence of the natural.
You are again right 100%. Super natural, by definition, cannot be materialized. On the other hand natural world is a finite one because of its movement. And by definition any moving object has a beginning and an end. In other words, natural world is a confined environment. The question is what is it that confines it within. What is it that causes its beginning, its movement, and its purpose/end. I myself cannot logically/philosophically believe that a Webster dictionary comes to existence just by a random explosion inside a print shop.
Conclusion; the good old never-ending ?cause and effect? argument. See chapter 109 in The Qur?aan.
(١ (٢ (٣ (٤ (٥ (
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful
Say O disbelievers! (1) I worship not that which ye worship; (2) Nor worship ye that which I worship. (3) And I shall not worship that which ye worship. (4) Nor will ye worship that which I worship. (5) Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (6)
Peace,
Khalil -
18.Within the 114 chapters of the Quran, 29 of them begin with the Quranic initials discussed earlier. Intermixed between the first initialed chapter (Chapter 2) and the last initialed chapter (Chapter 6 are 38 non-initialed chapters, or 19 x 2.
interesting indeed. a brain which is pleased by the 19 divisible number of non-initialed chapters between the first and the last initialed chapter, but can't notice the number of initialed chapters itself in NOT multiple of 19
29 = 19 x 1,526315.... laugh
Here is a simple one to give you a feel for these discoveries If you add the numbers assigned to all the chapters, plus the numbers assigned to all of the verses, plus the number of verses in the Quran, the total is 346199 or 19 x 19 x 959.
why you dont sum up only the number of verses in the Quran for example ? why you are continuously adding new numbers as if you were cooking soup.
1.There are 114 chapters in the Quran, or 19 x 6.
2.The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or 19 x 334.
are the numbers of words/letters in Quran or total Gv of Quran also multiples of 19 ? If not why ?
Brother, I dont reject 19 miracle. yet you should also see the examples you listed do not form a SINGLE system. they are not parts of a whole. think on my last question above..
for example you can say that table of names of Allah is a system, and if you know the real purpose of this system then you can easily distinguish other parts of it. however all these findings you listed in ur post do not form a system. instead they are an attempt to establish a "mathematical system of Quran", the famous 19-code, "The Quran's proof of authenticity" to confirm messengership of RK as indicated in 381. 19ers dont observe what God gave but they try to find what they (want to) believe to exist.
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for example you can say that table of names of Allah is a system, and if you know the real purpose of this system then you can easily distinguish other parts of it. however all these findings you listed in ur post do not form a system. instead they are an attempt to establish a "mathematical system of Quran", the famous 19-code, "The Quran's proof of authenticity" to confirm messengership of RK as indicated in 381. 19ers dont observe what God gave but they try to find what they (want to) believe to exist.
What sort of gibberish is that? Brother why don?t you pick up an ordinary book and try to find a mathematical consistency in them that is remotely similar to what the Quran has. Better yet write a book like it. You will not even come close to it. Only a stubborn person will not be able to acknowledge the signs in the Quran.
You stick to what you believe and I will stick to what I believe. It is my belief that the 19 based code is the miracle of the Quran. There are just too many mathematical consistencies involving the number 19. These are the signs of God?s book. How much more clearer can God make it in the Quran?
151 A.L.R, these are the signs of the Scripture, and a clear Qur'an.
111 A.L.R, a Scripture whose verses have been made governing, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Expert.261 T'.S.M.
262 These are the signs of the manifest/clarifying book.311 A.L.M.
312 These are the signs of the book of wisdom.271 T'.S, these are the signs of the Qur'an and a clear Scripture.
101 A.L.R, these are the signs of the Scripture of wisdom.
If these are the signs( the letters) of God's book what do they mean? Tell me GGG if you can get a better answer than what the 19 based code has shown
http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/english/index.html
So GGG what is the meaning of the letters that God said are the signs of his book? Since you seem so knowledgeable tell me what do they mean?. And show me your proof with your answer.
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Greetings and Peace, all group
If numbers or other device help a person to monotheism, where is the harm? The numbers are not worshipped, only ALLAH. Monotheism is not a cult, where everybody must do the same thing, the same way at the same time. A monotheist is a monotheist, regardless of "form."
2256 There is no compulsion in the system; the proper way has been clarified from the wrong way. Whoever rejects evil, and believes in GOD, indeed he has taken grasp of the strongest hold that will never break. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
It cuts both ways. There exists neither compulsion to accept nor to deny anything having to do with numbers.
4125 And who is better in the system than the one who submits himself to GOD, and he is a good doer, and he follows the creed of Abraham in monotheism? And GOD took Abraham as a friend.
Abraham (PBUH and all prophets) did not need numbers and yet is listed as a "best" example. Of course, the Prophets also didn't use computers, and many seekers find them useful in their pursuit of useful knowledge.
Everybody knows the similitude of opinions. There is only one Judgement that counts. When opinion is used to hurt or demean or force others it has no positive purpose.
Even in the case of deniers of monotheism, what does AQ say?
7310 And be patient over what they say, and depart from them in a good manner.
Those who use bad manners, deliberately or not, disobey ALLAH by not complying with AQ.
May ALLAH see fit to guide all seekers.
peace
~Abdul-Hadi