Hot/"ramadan" Answer

unknownuser

Peace,

Yes, especially when our background (e.g. nationality) hasn't changed much in all those nine centuries. You're not comparing Noah's time with today's (and back to 11th century) Jerusalem are you?

And I don't know why you're referring to 2324, because in that case, even a prophet from six or nine thousand years ago is also "not except a man like you".

No, unless humans had similar life spans he'd be a man 900+ years older/unlike you not a tree.

Would it be logical for AQ to talk about human development in random fashion such as this

4615 And bearing of him and his separation 2.42556228 years until when he reaches his development/maturity (>2.42556228 years) and reaches 2.42556228 years

Talks about one critical stage of early life development (ashuddahu) and equates 30 shahr to 40 sanat not about attaining wisdom/maturity at exactly age 40 or that people are dumb before that.

4067 furthermore He brings you out a child, furthermore lets you reach ashuddakum

This thread was becoming so repeatative that it was not worth contributing to it, until you started discussing Sanat and Aam as this is very important subject this may lead us to reccognising forbidden months too.
Why not start a new thread discussing the difference between these terms so others, who may have had enough of this thread and may not even bother to look at it twice, will miss out on this subject.

Yes, this thread is the mother of all threads. Perhaps I'll revive/link to one of the older topics.

2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand -sanatin- less fifty -<aamaan-.

Both the word -sana- as the word -<aam- seem to mean a year according to the Koran. Both words are seemingly interchangable
But it is noticable that sometimes the Koran uses the word -sana- in a negative context and the word -<aam- in a positive context.

7130 We then afflicted the people of Pharaoh with years of drought/-sineen-, a shortage in crops, so that they might take heed.
1247 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
1248 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
1249 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."

Lane's dictionary states that the word -sana- can refer to a year of drought or barrenness.

This information could lead to following reading of verse 2914 - as is mentioned in Lane's as well.

And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand years of hardship -sanatin- less fifty good years -<aamaan-.-

That's an obvious contradiction; Lane was a bad logician. 50 harsh or good years?

When does a year start and how to determine a good or bad year; can it be both?

Why would anyone desire thousand years of hardship?

296 ...he could be granted a life thousand sanat (bad years?)
2247 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat (bad years?) from what you reckon

In the Bible, Genesis 929 states And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years and he died.

No time to study Bible or ancient Hebrew although it's similar to Arabic?
http//biblos.com/genesis/9-29.htm

The reading of the word -sana- as 22 days seems not to be supported by verse 4615.

"My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -
These words are rather spoken by an adult person - not by a little child of about 2.4 years old.

Does it say in the verse at exactly age 40 the human says that?
They are spoken by those considerate of their parents ? at any age!

4615
And We have enjoined the mankind to his parents? kindness
Carried him his mother hardship and gave birth to him hardship

And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat

He says, "My Lord...

truthseeker171

That's an obvious contradiction; Lane was a bad logician. 50 harsh or good years?

Lane's dictionary states that the word -sana- can refer to a year of drought or barrenness.

2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand years of hardship -sanatin- less fifty good years -<aamaan-.

1000 years of difficulty minus 50 years that were as a contrast good.

In analogy of following verses
7130 We then afflicted the people of Pharaoh with years of drought/-sineen-, a shortage in crops, so that they might take heed.
1247 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
1248 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
1249 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."

As said before, verse 2914 has a special wording.
A person could say I had 60 bad years except for 3 good ones. It is not the most direct way of transferring a message - but it is clear.
The explanation as found in Lane's dictionary seems not to be illogical.

When does a year start and how to determine a good or bad year; can it be both?

The Koran does not give information about the timing of the start of the year.
Both words for year -<aam- and -sana- are used in the Koran in general.
Only in the case of a contrast between years the word -sana- is sometimes used in a negative context and the word -<aam- in a positive context.

Why would anyone desire thousand years of hardship?
296 ...he could be granted a life thousand sanat (bad years?)
2247 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat (bad years?) from what you reckon

The word -sana- is also used in a neutral way as is the word -<aam- when there is not a context of positive versus negative.

No time to study Bible or ancient Hebrew although it's similar to Arabic?
http//biblos.com/genesis/9-29.htm

Copy-paste from the link
sha?nah years

The Hebrew word -shanah- for year is rather similar to the Arabic word -sana-

Does it say in the verse at exactly age 40 the human says that?
They are spoken by those considerate of their parents ? at any age!
4615
And We have enjoined the mankind to his parents? kindness
Carried him his mother hardship and gave birth to him hardship

Numbers can have a symbolical meaning - the year 40 can be read as a symbol of mental maturity.
Interestingly some modern insights on the human development acknowledge the real maturity of a human around the age of 40.
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 4615 at other ages as well.

And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat
He says, "My Lord...

The cause and effect of the verse seem to be when one reaches maturity - symbolized as the age of 40 years, then one may acknowledge the value of following sentence

"My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Peace,

1000 years of difficulty minus 50 years that were as a contrast good.

50 of 1000 cannot be called bad then also called good.

1247 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."
1248 "Then after that will come seven ones severe in drought, which will consume all that you planted except for what you have stored."
1249 "Then after that will come a year/-<aam- in which the people will have abundant rain and which they will be able to produce once again."

As said before, verse 2914 has a special wording.
A person could say I had 60 bad years except for 3 good ones. It is not the most direct way of transferring a message - but it is clear.
The explanation as found in Lane's dictionary seems not to be illogical.

An obvious contradiction and illogical; seven good which they stored their food followed by seven bad?

Copy-paste from the link
sha?nah years

The Hebrew word -shanah- for year is rather similar to the Arabic word -sana-

Perhaps they have it wrong ...

Hebrew Transliteration English
vai?yih?yu become
kol- all
ye?mei- day/era
no?ach, Noah
te?sha nine
me?'o?vt hundred
sha?nah, ?
va?cha?mi?shim fifty
sha?nah; ?

Numbers can have a symbolical meaning - the year 40 can be read as a symbol of mental maturity.
Interestingly some modern insights on the human development acknowledge the real maturity of a human around the age of 40.
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 4615 at other ages as well.

Therefore a contradiction as with the case of orphans marrying and getting their inheritance < age 40.

The cause and effect of the verse seem to be when one reaches maturity - symbolized as the age of 40 years, then one may acknowledge the value of following sentence

"My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do righteousness that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted." -

Again another contradiction soon as any believer < age 40 says that.

truthseeker171

50 of 1000 cannot be called bad then also called good.

The special wording of verse 2914 seems to give the message that the years of Noah that he remained with his people were many and most of them were difficult. In a literal reading 50 easier and 950 harder years.
As said before in analogy
A person could say I had 60 bad years except for 3 good ones. It is not the most direct way of transferring a message - but it is clear.

An obvious contradiction and illogical; seven good which they stored their food followed by seven bad?

The first seven years can also be seen as hard years because of following
1247 He said, "You will plant regularly for seven years/-sineen-, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat."

Perhaps they have it wrong ...
Hebrew Transliteration English
vai?yih?yu become
kol- all
ye?mei- day/era
no?ach, Noah
te?sha nine
me?'o?vt hundred
sha?nah, ?
va?cha?mi?shim fifty
sha?nah; ?

Both the Koran as the Torah indicate that the age of Noah was very high and that it is worthwhile to mention.
This is not the case with other prophets.

According to your interpretation there would not be anything special about the duration of the stay of Noah with his people - so why would it still be mentioned with Noah and not with the other prophets?

Therefore a contradiction as with the case of orphans marrying and getting their inheritance < age 40.
Again another contradiction soon as any believer < age 40 says that.

There is not a contradiction - it depends on the context what the word -ashuddahu- means.

There are nevertheless the literal wording of verse 4615 many children that are not getting breast-feeded until the total age of 30 -shahr- (including pregnancy).
The words are rather used in general in a normative way concerning the period of breast-feeding. This does not create a contradiction either.

As said before
Numbers can have a symbolical meaning - the year 40 can be read as a symbol of mental maturity.
Interestingly some modern insights on the human development acknowledge the real maturity of a human around the age of 40.
That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 4615 at other ages as well.
This is not contradictory - it is rather the sometimes special use of language of the Koran.

Anyway for now I do not see any sense in a new usage of a 22 day period of counting.
From verse 4615 one can not read a binding ruling in this matter - rather the contrary, seeing the other koranic verses.
It seems not to have any contact with phases of the moon or other phenomena - or with known calendars.
There does not seem to be any practical use for a period of 22 days as a way for counting time.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

ayman

Peace Eid,

sanat cannot be same as aman/year nor does it make sense for anyone to live 950 years.
Different topic although may add insight; believe an equation is given ...
4615 And bearing of him and his separation thirty shahran until when he reaches his strength and reaches forty sanatan
30 x 29.53059 days (lunar month) = 2.42556228 years = 40 sanat
2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanatin less fifty years
3/4 lunar month x 1000 = 60.639057 years ? 50 years = 10.639057 years

Dear brother, I agree that "sana" and "aam" are different but forty sana cannot be 2.42 years. Reason is that if we read the rest of 4615, we will see that upon reaching 40 sana, the person would say "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for your favour that you have bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness that you approve; and make my offspring good. I have repented to you and I am amongst the peacemakers." Surely, a 2.42 year old child cannot utter such prayer.

I think that if we look at all the passages where "sana" is mentioned, it seems to have to do with the natural cycle of the earth (For example, see 105 and 1712).

On the other hand, "aam" seem to have to do with human calendars. For example, see "aamohm" (their year)

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

unknownuser

Peace truthseeker,

Both the Koran as the Torah indicate that the age of Noah was very high and that it is worthwhile to mention.
This is not the case with other prophets.

According to your interpretation there would not be anything special about the duration of the stay of Noah with his people - so why would it still be mentioned with Noah and not with the other prophets?

Samia explained it nicely in this thread...

I do not think that Noah lived 950 years, otherwise, his people would have believed in his message, thinking that he was an extraordinary creature or an angel...

That of course does not exclude that people can realise the knowledge of verse 4615 at other ages as well.

Correct!

unknownuser

Peace Eid,

Dear brother, I agree that "sana" and "aam" are different but forty sana cannot be 2.42 years. Reason is that if we read the rest of 4615, we will see that upon reaching 40 sana, the person would say "O my Lord! Grant me that I may be grateful for your favour that you have bestowed upon me, and upon both my parents, and that I may work righteousness that you approve; and make my offspring good. I have repented to you and I am amongst the peacemakers." Surely, a 2.42 year old child cannot utter such prayer.

I think that if we look at all the passages where "sana" is mentioned, it seems to have to do with the natural cycle of the earth (For example, see 105 and 1712).

On the other hand, "aam" seem to have to do with human calendars. For example, see "aamohm" (their year)

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

Peace Ayman,

Thank you for that concise reply and sanat seems to fit perfectly with concept of time in general...

Here are verses for reference...

2259 he said, "nay, you remained hundred AAam
928 so not let them come near al-masjid al-haraam after mihim
937 they make it allowed AAam
937 and make it prohibited AAam
9126 do not they see that they are tried in every AAam once or twice?
1249 then comes from after that AAam
2914 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand sanat/time only fifty AAamA
3114 and his separation in mayni

296 if he could be granted life thousand sanat/time
526 so indeed it forbidden to them forty sanat/time they will wander in the earth
2247 a day with your Lord like thousand sanat/time from what you reckon
2914 And verily, We sent Noah to his people and he stayed with them thousand sanat/time only fifty AAamA
325 in a day measure which is thousand sanat/time from what you reckon
4615 and bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat/time
704 a day its measure fifty thousand sanat/time

7130 and certainly, We seized people Firaun bil-sinna/with the time and scarcity of the fruits
105 that you may know amount al-sinna/the time and the count
1242 so he remained in the prison short sinna/time
1247 he said, "You will sow seven sinna/time as usual so what you reap so leave it in its ears only little from what you eat
1712 and that you may know amount al-sinna/the time and the count and everything We have explained it detailed
1811 so We cast over their ears in the cave sinna/time amount
1825 and they remained in their cave three hundred sinna/time and add nine
2040 so you remained sinna/time among people madyan
23112 he?ll ask "how long did you remain in the earth, amount sinna/time? They?ll say, "We remained a day or a part a day
2618 he said, didn't we bring you up among us a child, and you remained among us from your life sinna/time?
26205 We let them enjoy sinna/time
304 in short sinna/time

6152 and not go near wealth the orphans except with that which best until he reaches ashuddahu

1222 and when he reached ashuddahu We gave him wisdom and knowledge
1734 and not go near wealth the orphans except with that which best until he reaches ashuddahu

1882 so intended your Lord that they reach ashuddahuma and bring forth their treasure
225 and We cause to remain in the wombs what We will for a term appointed moreover We bring you out a child moreover that you may reach ashuddakum

2814 and when he reached ashuddahu wa-is'taw We bestowed upon him wisdom and knowledge
4067 furthermore He brings you out a child furthermore lets you reach ashuddakum

4615 and bearing of him and his separation thirty shahr until when he reaches ashuddahu and reaches forty sanat/time/phases/stages

Best regards,

Eid Abdullah

truthseeker171

Samia explained it nicely in this thread...

I do not think that Noah lived 950 years, otherwise, his people would have believed in his message, thinking that he was an extraordinary creature or an angel... -

According to the Koran - several prophets had special signs next to the content of the message itself.

For instance

Abraham and the fire that was cool for him.
Moses and the kane that became a snake and the special white hand.
Jesus who called people back from the death, healing the sick.

A sign of Noah could be his high age - this can be seen as compatible with the extraordinary deeds of other messengers.
Also Abraham, Moses or Jesus could have been regarded as an extraordinary being because of the special signs.
That was probably the point of the signs - to have a special way of getting attention to the content of the message.

The question remains
According to your interpretation there would not be anything special about the duration of the stay of Noah with his people - so why would it still be mentioned in the Koran with Noah and not with the other prophets?

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

mohamad_itani

seid has a point about sinnean and hisab ,
even if he is mistaken he has done a good job by looking at this,he has an open mind.
i salute you seaid
thanks
you have a point i will look into this

ayman

Peace brother Eid,

Thank you for that concise reply and sanat seems to fit perfectly with concept of time in general...
Here are verses for reference...

I agree that "sanat" fits in the concept of time in general. I would like to add that it is the concept of measuring time via a general natural cycle. On the other hand "aam" seems to be related to specific manmade calendars.

So the formula for Noah is

1000 natural cycles - 50 calendar cycles

I don't know what this formula implies. Perhaps time on the arc time passed differently than on earth.

Peace,

Ayman

Umm_Tariq

Salaamun alaikum,

I know it's been a long while since I have been on this board. Still haven't completed the project I wanted to do about so called quotes of Muhammad in hadith books vs. his quotes in the god's book but still intend to.

Anyway, just wanted to know Ayman if you could post the list you made of shahr ramadan months for several years. I had it saved but have since lost it when we moved.

I'd appreciate it.

Umm Tariq

unknownuser

Peace brother Eid,

I agree that "sanat" fits in the concept of time in general. I would like to add that it is the concept of measuring time via a general natural cycle. On the other hand "aam" seems to be related to specific manmade calendars.

So the formula for Noah is

1000 natural cycles - 50 calendar cycles

I don't know what this formula implies. Perhaps time on the arc time passed differently than on earth.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman,

I?m still looking into this which it seems that different words could be used to describe a natural time cycle versus an event (point in time). Puzzling is the last line in Perf558 contains both sanat and shahr ?

http//oi54.tinypic.com/2z811j6.jpg

shahr Jumada the first from sanat two and twenty and writing his ibn hadiduw

Although seems very suspicious like an attempt by someone clever inscribing modern Arabic script into the document to prove a point which it?s the only text from that time to contain dotting. Notice also the spacing ? why start writing in between Greek text when there was plenty of room left at the bottom?

On a side note; was vacationing last week in the south coast of Turkey and the room was built high on a hill and perhaps a sign exactly aligned same as the sleepers in the cave got to see the sun when it rose inclining away from the right and when it set passing away to the left ...

http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=17

Peace

unknownuser

Peace -- it maybe helpful to understanding the use of alif at beginning of some words to denote plural and at end which the closest translation is like the word "for" in English.

11 singular

2185 shr Ramadan that was revealed in it the Quran
2185 so who shahida from you al-shr so he should fast it
2194 al-shr al-harm
2194 in al-shr al-harm
2217 they ask you about al-shr al-harm fighting in it
52 not violate rites Allah and not al-shr al-harm
597 and al-shr al-harm
936 indeed count al-shwr with Allah (notice wa?)
3412 and to Sulaiman the wind its morning course shr
3412 and its afternoon course shr
973 night the power better than thousand shr

2 dual
492 and who not find so fasting shryn mutatbiayni
584 so who not find so fasting shryn mutatbiayni

8 plural

2197 the hajj ashr (plural) well known
2226 to who swear from their women waiting four ashr (plural)
2234 and leave wives should wait with themselves four ashr (plural) and for ten wAsra
92 so move about in the land four ashr (plural)
95 so when have passed al-ashr (plural)
654 the menstruation from your women if you doubt so their count three ashr (plural)
936 (is) for twelve shra
4615 and We have enjoined the mankind in his parents kindness. Carried him his mother hardship and gave birth to him hardship. And carrying of him and his separation for thirty shra until when he reaches asdh and reaches forty snh he says, "My Lord ...

7 singular

2259 hundred Aam
2259 He said, ?No, you remained hundred Aam
928 Aamhm (theirs)
9126 do not they see that they are tried in every Aam once or twice?
1249 then comes from after that Aam in it will be given abundant rain..."
937 they make it allowed for Aama
937 and make it prohibited for Aama

3114 and his separation in Aamyn

2914 and verily, We sent Noah to his people and he remained among them thousand snh only for fifty Aama
50 x 12 lunar months = 48.5112456 solar years
1,000 snh is probably non literal for numerous times like saying ?We warned them a thousand times.?

701-4 asked a questioner about a punishment bound to happen to the disbelievers not of it any preventer from Allah owner the ways of ascent. Ascend al-malikatu wal-ru to Him in a day/time is its measure fifty thousand snh 705 So be patient...

ayman

I know it's been a long while since I have been on this board. Still haven't completed the project I wanted to do about so called quotes of Muhammad in hadith books vs. his quotes in the god's book but still intend to.
Anyway, just wanted to know Ayman if you could post the list you made of shahr ramadan months for several years. I had it saved but have since lost it when we moved.
I'd appreciate it.

Peace sister and it is good to see you back on the forum.

I think that the list is probably somewhere on the thread. The full-moon after the summer solstice will occur on July 15 this year.

The rule for determining when exactly the full moon occurs is given clearly by the following signs
8416. So I do swear by the redness of dusk.
8417. And the night and what it enshrouds.
8418. And the moon when it becomes symmetric.

So after sunset when the sky is glowing red and the night enshrouds the sky from the opposite direction from this direction the full symmetric moon appears.

This year this will happen on July 15. So on July 15th shortly after sunset and from the opposite direction of its red afterglow the full moon will appear.

It is not the nearly full-moon on July 14th since this one will appear before sunset. It also cannot be the one on July 16th because it will appear long after sunset.

This same rule can be consistently applied every year. You can get the data about the moon and the sun from this link
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace brother Eid,

I?m still looking into this which it seems that different words could be used to describe a natural time cycle versus an event (point in time). Puzzling is the last line in Perf558 contains both sanat and shahr ?
shahr Jumada the first from sanat two and twenty and writing his ibn hadiduw
Although seems very suspicious like an attempt by someone clever inscribing modern Arabic script into the document to prove a point which it?s the only text from that time to contain dotting. Notice also the spacing ? why start writing in between Greek text when there was plenty of room left at the bottom?

I think that you make some valid observations. It seems that the Arabic was added by a different scribe after the Greek was written. This is also seen in the difference of the wear between the Arabic and Greek text. However, it is probable that the Arabic was added very shortly after the Greek was written within a few days or weeks. However, I disagree that this is a clever attempt by someone to deceive. If they wanted to deceive then they wouldn't choose such a mundane text as the vehicle. Also, the research and disagreements about dotting is a modern debate. I do agree that the practice of forging documents was very much widespread in the so-called Islamic empire and we actually have many examples of blatant forgeries such as the letters supposedly sent by Mohamed to leaders of the ancient world.

On a side note; was vacationing last week in the south coast of Turkey and the room was built high on a hill and perhaps a sign exactly aligned same as the sleepers in the cave got to see the sun when it rose inclining away from the right and when it set passing away to the left ...
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=18&verse=17

Yes. This would indicate that the cave had southern exposure.

Peace,

Ayman

truthseeker171

Peace sister and it is good to see you back on the forum.

I think that the list is probably somewhere on the thread. The full-moon after the summer solstice will occur on July 15 this year.

The rule for determining when exactly the full moon occurs is given clearly by the following signs
8416. So I do swear by the redness of dusk.
8417. And the night and what it enshrouds.
8418. And the moon when it becomes symmetric.

So after sunset when the sky is glowing red and the night enshrouds the sky from the opposite direction from this direction the full symmetric moon appears.

This year this will happen on July 15. So on July 15th shortly after sunset and from the opposite direction of its red afterglow the full moon will appear.

It is not the nearly full-moon on July 14th since this one will appear before sunset. It also cannot be the one on July 16th because it will appear long after sunset.

This same rule can be consistently applied every year. You can get the data about the moon and the sun from this link
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/

Peace

Both on 14th of July and 15th of July, the moon rises before sunset in for instance London, Great-Britain.
15th of July - in the table below.

This means that the above given interpretation of verses 8416-18 is not correct, or at least not valid everywhere on earth.
Furthermore the night that enshrouds is rather a while after sunset - when the darkness really starts, with the first stars - that is after the moonrise in July.

Truthseeker

U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department

Sun and Moon Data for One Day

The following information is provided for London (longitude E0.2, latitude N51.5)

Friday
15 July 2011 Universal Time + 1h

SUN
Begin civil twilight 0414
Sunrise 0459
Sun transit 1305
Sunset 2111
End civil twilight 2155

MOON
Moonrise 2032 on preceding day
Moon transit 0049
Moonset 0512
Moonrise 2103
Moonset 0626 on following day

Full Moon on 15 July 2011 at 0740 (Universal Time + 1h).

ayman

Both on 14th of July and 15th of July, the moon rises before sunset in for instance London, Great-Britain.
15th of July - in the table below.
This means that the above given interpretation of verses 8416-18 is not correct, or at least not valid everywhere on earth.
Furthermore the night that enshrouds is rather a while after sunset - when the darkness really starts, with the first stars - that is after the moonrise in July.

From http//aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php

Sunrise and sunset conventionally refer to the times when the upper edge of the disk of the Sun is on the horizon, considered unobstructed relative to the location of interest. Atmospheric conditions are assumed to be average, and the location is in a level region on the Earth's surface.
Moonrise and moonset times are computed for exactly the same circumstances as for sunrise and sunset.

Please see the detailed data below (specifically the times marked in red), which shows that the full-moon will technically appear at almost the same time the sun disappears and not before the sun by 8 minutes as you indicated. According to the data, 2105 is when the full-moon upper edge appears (not the whole symmetric full moon as the great reading clearly states). Now keeping in mind that the full-moon (and the sun) angular width is 0.5 degrees, by the time the entire full-moon appears over the horizon it will be about 2010 and the sun would be below the horizon. Also, keep in mind that due to haze on the horizon and uneven terrain, even in a flat desert the full-moon will practically not be visible until it is 1-2 degrees above the horizon. So under the best circumstances it would be around 2120 when Londoners would see the full-moon. As I previously said, as far as I know, this is true anywhere on earth except in extreme latitudes where the sun doesn?t set.

From http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php

LONDON E 0 10, N51 30
Altitude and Azimuth of the Sun
Jul 15, 2011
Zone 1h East of Greenwich
Altitude Azimuth
(E of N)
2030 4.6 299.5
2035 4.0 300.5
2040 3.3 301.4
2045 2.7 302.4
2050 2.1 303.3
2055 1.5 304.3
2100 0.9 305.3
2105 0.4 306.2
2110 -0.8 307.2
2115 -1.4 308.2
2120 -2.0 309.2
2125 -2.6 310.2
2130 -3.2 311.2

LONDON E 0 10, N51 30
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Jul 15, 2011
Zone 1h East of Greenwich
Altitude Azimuth Fraction
(E of N) Illuminated
2030 -5.4 112.3 1.00
2035 -4.7 113.2 1.00
2040 -4.0 114.1 1.00
2045 -3.3 115.1 1.00
2050 -2.6 116.0 1.00
2055 -1.9 116.9 1.00
2100 -1.3 117.9 1.00
2105 -0.0 118.8 1.00
2110 0.6 119.7 1.00
2115 1.1 120.7 1.00
2120 1.7 121.6 1.00
2125 2.3 122.6 1.00
2130 2.9 123.6 1.00

unknownuser

From http//aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php
Please see the detailed data below (specifically the times marked in red), which shows that the full-moon will technically appear at almost the same time the sun disappears and not before the sun by 8 minutes as you indicated. According to the data, 2105 is when the full-moon upper edge appears (not the whole symmetric full moon as the great reading clearly states). Now keeping in mind that the full-moon (and the sun) angular width is 0.5 degrees, by the time the entire full-moon appears over the horizon it will be about 2010 and the sun would be below the horizon. Also, keep in mind that due to haze on the horizon and uneven terrain, even in a flat desert the full-moon will practically not be visible until it is 1-2 degrees above the horizon. So under the best circumstances it would be around 2120 when Londoners would see the full-moon. As I previously said, as far as I know, this is true anywhere on earth except in extreme latitudes where the sun doesn?t set.

Peace Ayman,

180 degrees, 12 hours sunrise to sunset, 15 degrees/hour or 2 minutes for the sun's 1/2 degree to set.

It depends on location...

http//www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us

http//home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/fullmoon.htm

Sort check dates for full moon after summer solstice June 21st. Here is Chicago...

U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department

Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Chicago, Cook County, Illinois (longitude W87.7, latitude N41.9)
Thursday
11 July 1957 Central Standard Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 352 a.m.
Sunrise 425 a.m.
Sun transit 1156 a.m.
Sunset 726 p.m.
End civil twilight 800 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 623 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 418 a.m.
Moonrise 704 p.m.
Moon transit 1208 a.m. on following day
Moonset 516 a.m. on following day

Full Moon on 11 July 1957 at 450 p.m. Central Standard Time.

22 minutes Moonrise before Sunsets

3 July 1993 Central Daylight Time
Sunset 829 p.m.
Moonrise 815 p.m.

14 minutes Moonrise before Sunset

Few observations
973 night the power better than thousand shr
It's more precise, as better than single shr amplified 1000. Not written as 1000 ashr plural.

If calculating full moon or month, carrying him <= 6 lunar months; i.e. after 12 weeks weight is felt.

Using word substitution?
4615 and carrying him and his separation (for) thirty shra
3114 and his separation <= Aamyn (2 x 12 lunar months)

30 shra - 24 lunar months his separation <= 6 lunar months carrying him

truthseeker171

From http//aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/RST_defs.php
Please see the detailed data below (specifically the times marked in red), which shows that the full-moon will technically appear at almost the same time the sun disappears and not before the sun by 8 minutes as you indicated. According to the data, 2105 is when the full-moon upper edge appears (not the whole symmetric full moon as the great reading clearly states). Now keeping in mind that the full-moon (and the sun) angular width is 0.5 degrees, by the time the entire full-moon appears over the horizon it will be about 2010 and the sun would be below the horizon. Also, keep in mind that due to haze on the horizon and uneven terrain, even in a flat desert the full-moon will practically not be visible until it is 1-2 degrees above the horizon. So under the best circumstances it would be around 2120 when Londoners would see the full-moon. As I previously said, as far as I know, this is true anywhere on earth except in extreme latitudes where the sun doesn?t set.

Peace

The more one gets to the North the longer the time appears to be between the rise of the full moon and the sunset.
For instance Edinburgh

U.S. Naval Observatory
Astronomical Applications Department
Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Edinburgh (longitude W3.2, latitude N55.9)
Friday
15 July 2011 Universal Time + 1h

SUN
Begin civil twilight 0352
Sunrise 0448
Sun transit 1319
Sunset 2149
End civil twilight 2245

MOON
Moonrise 2109 on preceding day
Moon transit 0103
Moonset 0505
Moonrise 2135
Moonset 0624 on following day

Full Moon on 15 July 2011 at 0740 (Universal Time + 1h).

This shows that there is not a general valid sequence, for places with sunset, that can be deduced from verses 8416-18.
May be more to the South there would be a more consequent sequence of first the sunset and then the rise of the full moon.

But the wording -the night and what it enshrouds- of verse 8417 disproves a possible sequence of events. The time just after sunset is a part of the -nahar- not of the -lail-, because just after sunset actually there is no darkness to cover things from sight. The full moon is already visible before the actual darkness is starting.

Anyway in the wording of verses 8416-18 one can not find a linkage with the start of the fasting.

Peace,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Peace all,

If data is gathered for past traditional months of Ramadan and 1st visible full moon ...

http//www.usno.navy.mil/USNO/astronomical-applications/data-services/rs-one-day-us

Ramadan in 2011 will start on Monday, the 1st of August
Sun and Moon Data for One Day
The following information is provided for Anchorage, Anchorage Borough, Alaska (longitude W149.9, latitude N61.2)
Saturday
13 August 2011 Alaska Daylight Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 506 a.m.
Sunrise 602 a.m.
Sun transit 204 p.m.
Sunset 1004 p.m.
End civil twilight 1100 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 913 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 142 a.m.
Moonset 624 a.m.
Moonrise 922 p.m.
Moonset 747 a.m. on following day

Full Moon on 13 August 2011 at 1058 a.m. Alaska Daylight Time.

The following information is provided for Chicago, Cook County, Illinois (longitude W87.7, latitude N41.9)

Saturday
13 August 2011 Central Daylight Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 526 a.m.
Sunrise 557 a.m.
Sun transit 1256 p.m.
Sunset 754 p.m.
End civil twilight 824 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 707 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 1225 a.m.
Moonset 551 a.m.
Moonrise 735 p.m.
Moonset 653 a.m. on following day

Full Moon on 13 August 2011 at 158 p.m. Central Daylight Time.

The following information is provided for Mauna Loa, Maui County, Hawaii (longitude W157.2, latitude N21.1)

Friday
12 August 2011 Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 543 a.m.
Sunrise 607 a.m.
Sun transit 1234 p.m.
Sunset 701 p.m.
End civil twilight 724 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 541 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 511 a.m.
Moonrise 622 p.m.
Moon transit 1212 a.m. on following day
Moonset 605 a.m. on following day

Phase of the Moon on 12 August waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.

Full Moon on 13 August 2011 at 858 a.m. (Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time).

http//oi51.tinypic.com/v8g00x.jpg

2185 shr (full moon) Ra-Mim-Dad -- to be blasted by the sun. (both visible at same time)

936 indeed count al-shwr with Allah (for) twelve shra
937 they make it allowed (for) Aama and make it prohibited (for) Aama

I've checked prior years and believe the above pattern continues indefinetly...

Ramadan 2010 11th of August
Sun and Moon Data for One Day

The following information is provided for Anchorage, Anchorage Borough, Alaska (longitude W149.9, latitude N61.2)
Wednesday
22 September 2010 Alaska Daylight Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 701 a.m.
Sunrise 744 a.m.
Sun transit 152 p.m.
Sunset 759 p.m.
End civil twilight 842 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 707 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 104 a.m.
Moonset 721 a.m.
Moonrise 710 p.m.
Moonset 841 a.m. on following day

Phase of the Moon on 22 September waxing gibbous with 100% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Full Moon on 23 September 2010 at 118 a.m. Alaska Daylight Time.

The following information is provided for Chicago, Cook County, Illinois (longitude W87.7, latitude N41.9)
Wednesday
22 September 2010 Central Daylight Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 610 a.m.
Sunrise 638 a.m.
Sun transit 1243 p.m.
Sunset 648 p.m.
End civil twilight 716 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 548 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 1149 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 558 a.m.
Moonrise 610 p.m.
Moonset 658 a.m. on following day

Phase of the Moon on 22 September waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Full Moon on 23 September 2010 at 418 a.m. Central Daylight Time.

The following information is provided for Mauna Loa, Maui County, Hawaii (longitude W157.2, latitude N21.1)

Wednesday
22 September 2010 Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 556 a.m.
Sunrise 618 a.m.
Sun transit 1221 p.m.
Sunset 625 p.m.
End civil twilight 647 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 527 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 546 a.m.
Moonrise 600 p.m.
Moon transit 1215 a.m. on following day
Moonset 635 a.m. on following day

Full Moon on 22 September 2010 at 1118 p.m. (Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time).

Ramadan 2009 21 August
Sun and Moon Data for One Day

The following information is provided for Anchorage, Anchorage Borough, Alaska (longitude W149.9, latitude N61.2)
Thursday
3 September 2009 Alaska Daylight Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 611 a.m.
Sunrise 657 a.m.
Sun transit 159 p.m.
Sunset 858 p.m.
End civil twilight 944 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 820 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 101 a.m.
Moonset 558 a.m.
Moonrise 821 p.m.
Moonset 723 a.m. on following day

Phase of the Moon on 3 September waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.
Full Moon on 4 September 2009 at 803 a.m. Alaska Daylight Time.

The following information is provided for Chicago, Cook County, Illinois (longitude W87.7, latitude N41.9)

Thursday
3 September 2009 Central Daylight Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 550 a.m.
Sunrise 619 a.m.
Sun transit 1250 p.m.
Sunset 720 p.m.
End civil twilight 749 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 621 p.m. on preceding day
Moon transit 1145 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 516 a.m.
Moonrise 644 p.m.
Moonset 619 a.m. on following day

Phase of the Moon on 3 September waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.

Full Moon on 4 September 2009 at 1103 a.m. Central Daylight Time.

The following information is provided for Mauna Loa, Maui County, Hawaii (longitude W157.2, latitude N21.1)

Thursday
3 September 2009 Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time

SUN
Begin civil twilight 551 a.m.
Sunrise 613 a.m.
Sun transit 1228 p.m.
Sunset 643 p.m.
End civil twilight 705 p.m.

MOON
Moonrise 539 p.m. on preceding day
Moonset 526 a.m.
Moonrise 613 p.m.
Moon transit 1213 a.m. on following day
Moonset 617 a.m. on following day

Phase of the Moon on 3 September waxing gibbous with 99% of the Moon's visible disk illuminated.

Full Moon on 4 September 2009 at 603 a.m. (Hawaii-Aleutian Standard Time).