:: Nasara - A sect among Christians? ::

mmkhan

Salaam all,

I was thinking about "Nasara". Are they a sect from Christians or Christians themselves? Can someone please put some light on understand this and answer the following questions. Thanks.

514
514 And from those who have said We are Nasaras, We have taken their covenant and they have forgotten much of what they were reminded of; so We planted between them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they had done.

Q1- The aayat above talks about them who call themselves Nasara, either they are Christians or a sect from Christians, the clue in the above aayat is "We planted between them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection", so, who could be those possibly?

518
518 And the Yahudis and the Nasaras said We are the children of Allah, and His loved ones. Say Then why does He punish you for your sins? No, you are merely human beings which He has created. He forgives whom He pleases, and He punishes whom He pleases. And to Allah is the sovereignty of the heavens and the earth and all that is in-between, and to Him is the destiny.

Q2- The key point in 518 is "The Nasaras said that WE are children of Allah". Do Christians or a sect of Christians say this?

551
551 O you who believe, do not take the Yahudis and the Nasaras as allies, for they are allies to one another; and whoever takes them as such from among you is one of them. Allah does not guide the wicked people.

Q3- If we take Christians or a sect of Christians as the Nasaras in the above aayat, are they allies with the Yahudis and vice versa?

930
930 And the Yahudis said Uzair is the son of Allah, and the Nasaras said The Maseeh is the son of Allah. Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. Allah will fight them. They are deluded from the truth!

Q4- The Nasaras also said The Maseeh is son of Allah. How they say two different things? i.e., "We are children of Allah" and "The Maseeh is son of Allah"

2113
2113 And the Yahudis say The Nasaras are on nothing, and the Nasaras say The Yahudis are on nothing, while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

Q5- Do Christians or a sect from Christians say that "The Yahudis are on nothing"? And how about 551 it says they are allies to each other?

Thanks again.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Jafar

There was a sect (within Judaism not within Christiany) being called as "Nazerenes".. or "Nozirith" in Hebrew..
From hebrew word.. Nozeer.. which means 'those who are in oath/vow'..
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite

Jesus was commonly being called as "Iashua Ha Nozirith".. or Jesus The Nazirites..
Which being 'mis-interpreted' by many 'biblical scholar' as "Jesus From Nazareth"..
Those who are in 'nazir' oath shall abstain from wine, and cutting his hair.. that's why Jesus presumably had a long hair..

Presumably, a group of his follower continues to refer themselves as "The Nozirith"..
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_%28sect%29

This group of christians were known to be very strict on the "Torah/Moses Law".. a.k.a "The jewish christians".. as thus to the untrained eyes.. they appear similar to the common jews.. / Judaism. Although they're commonly at odd with the 'mainstream rabbanical Judaism' at that time. Given from judaism perspective.. those who follow Jesus; 'the false messiah'.. are infidel.. a kuffar.. a murtad... an apostate.. and punishable by death through stoning...

Quite similar to what happen today between the Sunnis and the Ahmadis....
They're similar but they frequently at odd with each others...

Salam / Peace

mmkhan

Salaam Jafar,

There was a sect (within Judaism not within Christiany) being called as "Nazerenes".. or "Nozirith" in Hebrew..
From hebrew word.. Nozeer.. which means 'those who are in oath/vow'..

I was thinking the same way that 'Nasara' is a sect within Judaism, but I think I was wrong because of the following aayaats.

930
930 And the Yahudis said Uzair is the son of Allah, and the Nasaras said The Maseeh is the son of Allah. Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. Allah will fight them. They are deluded from the truth!

You can see that Yahudis are made different from Nasaras in the above aayat.

2113
2113 And the Yahudis say The Nasaras are on nothing, and the Nasaras say The Yahudis are on nothing, while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. Allah will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

In 2113 again they seems to be different from Yahudis.

May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Jafar

Salaam Jafar,

I was thinking the same way that 'Nasara' is a sect within Judaism, but I think I was wrong because of the following aayaats.

Well it depends on how you define sect, religion, Judaism and Christianity.
Christianity IS a sect within Judaeic / Israelite culture..
The "Yahudi" in this case might refer to "Rabbanical Judaism" or the 'mainstream judaism group/sect'...

We shall see the similar thing happening before our eyes now between "The Sunnis" and "The Ahmadis"...

Is "Ahmadis" / "Ahmaddiyah" a sect within Sunniism? Or is it a separate 'religion'?
Personally I don't see any differences between cult, sect and religion.
All of them are 'sectarians'..

Salam / Peace

mmkhan

Salaam Jafar,

Well it depends on how you define sect, religion, Judaism and Christianity.
Christianity IS a sect within Judaeic / Israelite culture..
The "Yahudi" in this case might refer to "Rabbanical Judaism" or the 'mainstream judaism group/sect'...

We shall see the similar thing happening before our eyes now between "The Sunnis" and "The Ahmadis"...

Is "Ahmadis" / "Ahmaddiyah" a sect within Sunniism? Or is it a separate 'religion'?
Personally I don't see any differences between cult, sect and religion.
All of them are 'sectarians'..

Salam / Peace

I agree, but they have differences, over all they all are same under one big category whatever you call it.

But I think you missed my point, I mean, that we have the clues from AlQuraan to make out who are Nasara and who are Yahudis.

Like in the above quoted aayaats, we came to know that Nasaras are only those who say "The Maseeh is the son of Allah", here the name "Isa" or "Isa the son of Marium" has not been mentioned for some reason that I don't know.

Similarly, Yahudis are not all Jews as I understand because Yahudis are only those who say "Uzair is the son of Allah", I don't know if all Jews say this.

By these points we will come to know whom actually AlQuraan is referring to.

May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Jafar

Like in the above quoted aayaats, we came to know that Nasaras are only those who say "The Maseeh is the son of Allah", here the name "Isa" or "Isa the son of Marium" has not been mentioned for some reason that I don't know.
Similarly, Yahudis are not all Jews as I understand because Yahudis are only those who say "Uzair is the son of Allah", I don't know if all Jews say this.

You started with basic assumption that
if the Quran mentions X -> Y
And X is a group or collection of individuals.
Then Y must apply to all X individual.

Which I believe is not the case..

Look at my footer.. the Quran did said.. "The Arabs are the worst in rejection and hypocrisy" (Al Arabu ashadu kufran wa nifaqa)
However I believe it's not applicable to all Arab individual... not all Arabs are kufr and hypocrite... even during that time (1400 years ago)

Perhaps 1400 years ago in middle east; some of the Nashara did said that "Isa is the 'male offspring' of God".
Perhaps 1400 years ago in middle east; some of the Yehudi did said that "Uzair is the 'male offspring' of God".
Although today we couldn't find anyone (Jews or Non-Jews) who believe that "Uzair is the male offspring of God".

But nevertheless both statement above are false.. that's what I think what Quran are trying to convey here..

As for the "Children of Allah", Jesus did mention a theme with Hebrew word "Beney Elohym", Which is a Hebrew idiom which should be correctly translated as "People of God".
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." (Hebrew Beney Elohym)
Matthew 59

The same case with "Ben Elohym" which has been grossly mis-interpreted as "The Male Offspring of God" while it should be interpreted as "Man of God/God's Man".

The Quran did mention that 1400 years ago in the location near Muhammad, the Nashara and Yehudi are not "Beney Elohym". Because they have made 'mistakes/sins' and they're being punished for it.

By combining that understanding with the gospel verse above; perhaps it's due to given they were more of "war / conflict maker" rather than "peacemaker".

With the above clue in mind; (both the Nashara and Yehudi are being punished and they do realized that they're currently being punished for their sins at that time), it's most probable that the Nashara in this case is not the "Orthodox/Byzantium Christians" or the "Catholic Christians" or "The Coptic Christians" yet it's the "Nazirites" a.k.a "Jewish Christians", a group of 'judeo-christian' sect who believes in Jesus as the Messiah/Christ/Masih yet clinged on the "Mosaic / Jewish traditions" and commonly being treated as "Jews" by the powerful Byzantium Christians during that time.

Mind you that the Byzantium Christians did expelled and persecute all "People who are jewish" from Jerusalem during that time..
For Byzantium Christians the "Jewish Christians" (Nazirites) and other Jewish groups are all the same... as they all look alike..

Salam / Peace

raginggaijin

Salaam Jafar,

I was thinking the same way that 'Nasara' is a sect within Judaism, but I think I was wrong because of the following aayaats.

930
930 And the Yahudis said Uzair is the son of Allah, and the Nasaras said The Maseeh is the son of Allah. Such is their utterances with their mouths, they imitate the sayings of those who rejected before them. Allah will fight them. They are deluded from the truth!

You can see that Yahudis are made different from Nasaras in the above aayat.

The Messiah (pbuh) was sent for the Bani Israel. Surah 349, 352, 7158, 578, 616
The Yahud and Nazarenes are sects of the Bani Israel. They were given the Torah and Injeel.
The Yahudians uphold the Torah and the Babylonian Talmud - the 'oral law' of Moses. They reject the Injeel.
The Nazarenes uphold the Torah and what remains of the Injeel along with the additions; believing the Messiah is the son of Allah, virgin birth, etc., as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today.

"God took compact with the Children of Israel; and We raised up from among them twelve chieftains. And God said, 'I am with you. Surely, if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My Messengers and succour them, and lend to God a good loan, I will acquit you of your evil deeds, and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whosoever of you thereafter disbelieves, surely he has gone astray from the right way.
So for their breaking their compact We cursed them and made their hearts hard, they perverting words from their meanings; and they have forgotten a portion of that they were reminded of; and thou wilt never cease to light upon some act of treachery on their part, except a few of them. Yet pardon them, and forgive; surely God loves the good-doers.
And with those who say 'We are Christians (nasara)' We took compact (meethaqahum); and they have forgotten a portion of that they were reminded of. So We have stirred up among them enmity and hatred, till the Day of Resurrection; and God will assuredly tell them of the things they wrought." Surah 513-14

The Jinn/Gentiles were not given a Book, so they could not be reminded.
?We have not given them any Books to study, nor have We sent them before thee any warner.? Surah 3444

The Sabines are a sect of the Jinn (Gentiles) who follow Pauline Christianity, aka the Roman Catholics. They were not sent a Book to study before the Quran, and they follow the pagan Pauline Christianity - Trinitarianism - syncretist doctrine of pagan polytheism Sun worship, fertility goddess-son worship, intercessors, etc. Look to the pagan teachings of the Greeks and Romans and see they still believe in multiple gods and goddesses, just under new names. Surah 72;1-18

Paul was accused of being a leader of the Nazarenes.
"For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" Acts 245

Magians are the Jinn (Gentiles) who uphold the corrupted Zoroastrian teachings of the Babylonian Persians, adopted by the Yahudians into their Talmud. Surah 4629-30

Syncretism Chain of Transmission
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9IAq06Qu5Q

Syncretism Prayer
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9pC0lZ856M

Early Christianity a Jewish Sect.
For a long time Christianity regarded itself as part of Judaism. It had its center in Jerusalem (Iren?us, "Adversus H?reses, i. 26); its first fifteen bishops were circumcised Jews, they observed the Law and were rather unfriendly to heathenism (Sulpicius Severus, "Historia Sacra," ii. 31; Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." iv. 5; compare Matt. xv. 26), while they held friendly intercourse with the leaders of the synagogue (see Gr?tz, "Gesch. der Juden," iv. 373 et seq.; and Ebionites, Minim, and Nazarenes). Many a halakic and haggadic discussion is recorded in the Talmud as having taken place between the Christians and the Rabbis (see Jacob the Gnostic). Probably the Christian Congregation, or Church of the Saints, did not distinguish itself in outward form from the "ehala addisha" at Jerusalem, under which name the Essene community survived the downfall of the Temple (Ber. 9b; compare Eccl. R. ix. 9 'Edah edoshah). Of course, the destruction of the Temple and of the Judean state and the cessation of sacrifice could not but promote the cause of Christianity (see Justin, "Dial. cum Tryph." xi.); and under the impression of these important events the Gospels were written and accordingly colored. Still, Jew and Christian looked in common for the erection of the kingdom of heaven by the Messiah either soon to appear or to reappear (see Jo?l, "Blicke in die Religionsgesch." i. 32 et seq.). It was during the last struggle with Rome in the days of Bar Kokba and Akiba that, amidst denunciations on the part of the Christians and execrations on the part of the Jewish leaders, those hostilities began which separated Church and Synagogue forever, and made the former an ally of the arch-enemy. Pauline Christianity greatly aided in the Romanizing of the Church. It gravitated toward Rome as toward the great world-empire, and soon the Church became in the eyes of the Jew heir to Edom (Gen. xxvii. 40). The emperor Constantine completed what Paul had begun?a world hostile to the faith in which Jesus had lived and died. The Council of Nice in 325 determined that Church and Synagogue should have nothing in common, and that whatever smacked of the unity of God and of the freedom of man, or offered a Jewish aspect of worship, must be eliminated from Catholic Christendom.

Read more http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=489&letter=C&search=nazarene#ixzz1Q3LLy9Gc

May Allah increase us in knowledge.

Peace.

Hoppean

The Nazarenes uphold the Torah and what remains of the Injeel along with the additions; believing the Messiah is the son of Allah, virgin birth, etc., as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today.

So there were "Torah observant-Messianic Jews" in 7th century Arabia?? Even though the movement is maybe a 100 years old??

The Sabines are a sect of the Jinn (Gentiles) who follow Pauline Christianity, aka the Roman Catholics. They were not sent a Book to study before the Quran, and they follow the pagan Pauline Christianity - Trinitarianism - syncretist doctrine of pagan polytheism Sun worship, fertility goddess-son worship, intercessors, etc. Look to the pagan teachings of the Greeks and Romans and see they still believe in multiple gods and goddesses, just under new names. Surah 72;1-18

So according to you, Paul taught "pagan polytheism"?? Would you happen to have any evidence for this, or are you just repeating other people's lies??

Paul was accused of being a leader of the Nazarenes.
"For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes" Acts 245

Didn't you just say that "Nazarenes" uphold Torah and injeel? And didn't you contrast this with "Pauline Christianity"?? Now you're saying Paul was a "Nazarene"?? So which type of "Nazarene" was Paul, the "sun worshipping" kind?? By the way, is the new testament now reliable, when it suits your interests??

Early Christianity a Jewish Sect.
For a long time Christianity regarded itself as part of Judaism. It had its center in Jerusalem (Iren?us, "Adversus H?reses, i. 26); its first fifteen bishops were circumcised Jews, they observed the Law and were rather unfriendly to heathenism (Sulpicius Severus, "Historia Sacra," ii. 31; Eusebius, "Hist. Eccl." iv. 5; compare Matt. xv. 26), while they held friendly intercourse with the leaders of the synagogue (see Gr?tz, "Gesch. der Juden," iv. 373 et seq.; and Ebionites, Minim, and Nazarenes). Many a halakic and haggadic discussion is recorded in the Talmud as having taken place between the Christians and the Rabbis (see Jacob the Gnostic). Probably the Christian Congregation, or Church of the Saints, did not distinguish itself in outward form from the "ehala addisha" at Jerusalem, under which name the Essene community survived the downfall of the Temple (Ber. 9b; compare Eccl. R. ix. 9 'Edah edoshah). Of course, the destruction of the Temple and of the Judean state and the cessation of sacrifice could not but promote the cause of Christianity (see Justin, "Dial. cum Tryph." xi.); and under the impression of these important events the Gospels were written and accordingly colored. Still, Jew and Christian looked in common for the erection of the kingdom of heaven by the Messiah either soon to appear or to reappear (see Jo?l, "Blicke in die Religionsgesch." i. 32 et seq.). It was during the last struggle with Rome in the days of Bar Kokba and Akiba that, amidst denunciations on the part of the Christians and execrations on the part of the Jewish leaders, those hostilities began which separated Church and Synagogue forever, and made the former an ally of the arch-enemy. Pauline Christianity greatly aided in the Romanizing of the Church. It gravitated toward Rome as toward the great world-empire, and soon the Church became in the eyes of the Jew heir to Edom (Gen. xxvii. 40). The emperor Constantine completed what Paul had begun?a world hostile to the faith in which Jesus had lived and died. The Council of Nice in 325 determined that Church and Synagogue should have nothing in common, and that whatever smacked of the unity of God and of the freedom of man, or offered a Jewish aspect of worship, must be eliminated from Catholic Christendom.

Read more http//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=489&letter=C&search=nazarene#ixzz1Q3LLy9Gc

So is the "Jewish Encyclopedia" where you derive "Pauline Christianity"?? Curiously they cite no evidence for this, maybe because it is nothing more than the machinations of liberal "scholars".... I wonder what these same "scholars" would have to say about the Quran??

raginggaijin

So there were "Torah observant-Messianic Jews" in 7th century Arabia?? Even though the movement is maybe a 100 years old??

You didn't read the Jewish Encyclopedia quote, did you?
The sect of the Nazarene is as old as the teachings given to Isa (pbuh).

So according to you, Paul taught "pagan polytheism"?? Would you happen to have any evidence for this, or are you just repeating other people's lies??

Do you want me to quote the verses from the Bible that prove
The Messiah (pbuh) did not die on the cross...
Paul lied to convert...
Pagan syncretism of Trinitarianism...
Pagan worship of the sun, moon, stars...
...what exactly do you want as proof? I was a Trinitarian Christian before my reversion to Al-Islam. I study the Bible and the Quran, and will bring proof to support why I believe what I believe.

Here are two dialogues I created that will help you understand my position. Bring your Bible as I provide proof.

Ponder Trinitarian Christianity (How I Learned to Stop Serving Iblis and Love Allah)
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5c603ZGqDA

Ponder Paul the Apostlehttp//www.youtube.com/watch?v=B--4B68NZQo

Didn't you just say that "Nazarenes" uphold Torah and injeel? And didn't you contrast this with "Pauline Christianity"?? Now you're saying Paul was a "Nazarene"?? So which type of "Nazarene" was Paul, the "sun worshipping" kind?? By the way, is the new testament now reliable, when it suits your interests??

Go back and reread what I posted
Paul was accused of being a leader of the Nazarenes.
pagan Pauline Christianity - Trinitarianism - syncretist doctrine of pagan polytheism Sun worship, fertility goddess-son worship, intercessors, etc.

Please don't attempt to twist my words, when they are clearlyl stated and for all to see. It only undermines your position.

So is the "Jewish Encyclopedia" where you derive "Pauline Christianity"?? Curiously they cite no evidence for this, maybe because it is nothing more than the machinations of liberal "scholars".... I wonder what these same "scholars" would have to say about the Quran??

Oh no, I derive Pauline Christianity from his own writings found in the collection of Books called 'the Bible'. (Biblio as the root word.)
I was a Christian for most of my life. It was in reading the entire Bible and seeing what the Prophets (pbut) said, and asking our Creator to guide me to the Truth, that I was shown the pagan syncretism that steeps Christianity today.

I was a monotheist Christian for 3 years prior to being guided to the Quran.

So what proof do you want concerning Paul, to show his pagan syncretism? Will you accept his writings?
When they are brought forth, proving the Christianity followed by the majority today are pagan teachings, will you repent, leave those teachings, and submit to Allah?

Peace.

amuslim

Peace all,

Regarding Christianity, I would recommend reading Bart Ehrman's "Jesus, Interrupted" and "Forgery" if you have no or little knowledge on the New Testament and its authors and fabrications. He gives an easy approach to the scholarly opinions of the Bible. These forgeries and fabrications have been known for 100s of years and every minister that goes to seminary know them. As Ehrman states, he wonders why Christians themselves are ignorant when their pastors have the knowledge of this from their seminaries.

What was quite interesting is his idea of reading the Gospels "Horizontally" and seeing the many errors within them itself. Also, the many "insertions" that occurred over the years. Stories such as Jesus stating "Let one who is without sin cast the first stone" didn't appear in manuscripts until the 10th century. If you don't want to read the book, watch his videos on youtube. He's an ex evangelical Christian who began having troubles with his faith during his graduate studies.

Sorry for going off topic, but the reason I brought this up is that he talks about early Christian beliefs as well. One of the groups he talks about is the Ebionites, the Jewish followers of Christ who stayed true to Jesus' message, at least most of it.

Peace

raginggaijin

Peace all,

Regarding Christianity, I would recommend reading Bart Ehrman's "Jesus, Interrupted" and "Forgery" if you have no or little knowledge on the New Testament and its authors and fabrications.

And unto you, peace,

I also recommend Bart Ehrman's "Misquoting Jesus" for more information on the fabrications and their authors.

I also recommend the dialogues of Gary Miller - an ex-Christian, Muslim revert - who discusses many topics of Christianity and the deen of Al-Islam. Included below is a playlist containing the majority of his public discussions.

Dialogues of Gary Miller playlist
http//www.youtube.com/playlist?p=PL321DDB23425153CF

Peace.

amuslim

Peace raginggaijin,

Thanks for the playlist. I sent you a message if you could kindly check it I would be appreciative. Thanks.

Peace

raginggaijin

Peace raginggaijin,

Thanks for the playlist. I sent you a message if you could kindly check it I would be appreciative. Thanks.

Peace

May Allah increase us in knowledge, and bring peace upon your household,

Got it and replied with a quick question. I'll send a full reply tonight after I get your response, insha'Allah.

Peace and blessings.

Hoppean

You didn't read the Jewish Encyclopedia quote, did you? The sect of the Nazarene is as old as the teachings given to Isa (pbuh).

You're not getting it, here's what you said Reply #6 "The Nazarenes uphold the Torah and what remains of the Injeel along with the additions; believing the Messiah is the son of Allah, virgin birth, etc., as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today."

There's only 1 group that fits that description today and they are messianic jews who try and keep torah (somewhat). Their existence is maybe 100 years old, for you to read back into history this modern development is a basic anachronistic error. To think that they have any doctrinal lineage to groups like the Essenes, is simply absurd.; do you know what these 1st century Jewish groups believed? Do you know their approach to Torah? To think the Quran is addressing the Essenes or other 1st century groups requires more than just your word. What about all the gnostic groups that existed in the 1st century, does the Quran address them too?? So I ask again, who were the Torah observant messianic Jews of the 7th century; in other words, who were these Nazarenes who believed in Christ and upheld Torah in 7th century Arabia?? I eagerly await your evidence, my guess is you have none.

Do you want me to quote the verses from the Bible that prove
The Messiah (pbuh) did not die on the cross...
Paul lied to convert...
Pagan syncretism of Trinitarianism...
Pagan worship of the sun, moon, stars...
...what exactly do you want as proof? I was a Trinitarian Christian before my reversion to Al-Islam. I study the Bible and the Quran, and will bring proof to support why I believe what I believe.

lol I already asked you for evidence that Paul taught pagan polytheism, but you didn't provide any. Instead you come back with disingenuous questions. If you have proof for your silly claims please bring them, otherwise stop repeating tired, old lies you got from islamic websites.

Here are two dialogues I created that will help you understand my position. Bring your Bible as I provide proof.

Ponder Trinitarian Christianity (How I Learned to Stop Serving Iblis and Love Allah)
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5c603ZGqDA

Ponder Paul the Apostlehttp//www.youtube.com/watch?v=B--4B68NZQo

Sorry I don't have the time to listen to your 40 minute monologue, but if you can just bring your evidence, as was requested in my previous post, then I would be most appreciative.

Go back and reread what I posted
Paul was accused of being a leader of the Nazarenes.

Right and YOU claimed the Nazarenes upheld Torah, so which is it??

pagan Pauline Christianity - Trinitarianism - syncretist doctrine of pagan polytheism Sun worship, fertility goddess-son worship, intercessors, etc.

You already said this, repeating yourself ad nauseum will not make your position come true.

Please don't attempt to twist my words, when they are clearlyl stated and for all to see. It only undermines your position.

Yes it is precisely the clarity of your words, that I have demonstrated to be false and self contradictory.

Oh no, I derive Pauline Christianity from his own writings found in the collection of Books called 'the Bible'. (Biblio as the root word.)

More evasions. Bring your proof from the bible that Paul intended to overthrow Jesus' teachings in favour of a pagan religion, thanks.

So what proof do you want concerning Paul, to show his pagan syncretism? Will you accept his writings?

Yet more evasions. Yes this is what I asked the first time, will you provide it, or not??

When they are brought forth, proving the Christianity followed by the majority today are pagan teachings, will you repent, leave those teachings, and submit to Allah?

Since I already know what you will bring as "proofs" because they are the same recycled lies that have been peddled by islamic proagandists for years, then I think you need to repent of your sin of denying God's revelation in the bible.

amuslim

Peace Hoppean and Raginggaijin,

Don't mean to come between you two, but as far as Paul overthrowing Jesus' teachings in favor of Pagan religions, can we at least agree that his (and whoever wrote his name in the letters) teaching is different from the historical Jesus?

@Raging

I sent what you asked, thanks.

Peace

raginggaijin

You're not getting it, here's what you said Reply #6 "The Nazarenes uphold the Torah and what remains of the Injeel along with the additions; believing the Messiah is the son of Allah, virgin birth, etc., as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today."

Reread the part that says "as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today" and ask yourself who isn't getting it.
I bring forth proof from your own Books, as well as the teachings of the Yahudians who claim to be descendants of the Bani Israel, as shown above. A simple Google search will assist in your research as well.
If you want to believe the Nazarenes began 100 years ago, go for it. The proof given earlier refutes it, as do current historical teachings.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_%28sect%29

"According to Epiphanius in his Panarion the 4th Century Nazarenes were originally Jewish converts of the Apostles who fled Jerusalem because of Jesus' prophesy on its coming siege (during the Great Jewish Revolt in 70 A.D.). They fled to Pella, Peraea (which is northeast of Jerusalem), and eventually spread outwards to Beroea and Bashanitis, where they permanently settled.
The Nazarenes were an early Jewish Christian sect located in and about Jerusalem which proclaimed Jesus of Nazareth was the promised Messiah and the Son of God. The Nazarenes were similar to the Ebionites, in that they considered themselves Jews, maintained an adherence to the Law of Moses, and used only the Aramaic Gospel of the Hebrews, rejecting all the Canonical gospels. However, unlike half of the Ebionites, they accepted the Virgin Birth.
As late as the eleventh century Cardinal Humbert of Mourmoutiers still referred to the Nazarene sect as a Sabbath-keeping Christian body existing at that time (Strong?s Cyclopedia, New York, 1874, I, 660). Modern scholars believe it is the Pasagini or Pasagians who are referenced by Cardinal Humbert suggesting the Nazarene sect existed well into the eleventh century and beyond.(The Catholic writings of Bonacursus entitled "Against the Heretics&quot. It is believed that Gregorius of Bergamo, about 1250 CE, also wrote concerning the Nazarenes as the "Pasagini"."

References used to compose the above text
Panarion 29.5.6
Panarion 29.3.3
F.L. Cross and E.A. Livingston (1988-92)The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Oxford University Press, p 597&722.
(Acts 245)
Thayers's Lexicon (Nazraios), Strong's G3480, at Blue Letter Bible
a b Krauss, Samuel. Nazarenes. Jewish Encyclopedia. Retrieved 2007-08-23
a b Hegg, Tim (2007). The Virgin Birth - An Inquiry into the Biblical Doctrine. TorahResource. Retrieved 2007-08-13.
"Jewish Encyclopedia Jerome's Account".
Filaster (ca. 397 A.D.) was a bishop who wrote the "Book of Diverse Heresies" (lived about the time of Epiphanius). "The sect of Filaster (Nazorei/Nazarei) derives somehow from the Nazirites and accepts the Law and prophets." ft.12, p.73 'Nazarene Jewish Christianity from the end of the New Testament period until its disappearance in the fourth century' By Ray Pritz
Parks, James The Conflict Of The Church And The Synagogue Atheneum, New York, 1974, pp. 397 - 398.

Read your Book.

Isa came for the Children of Israel Mat. 1524, Mat. 121, Mat. 517-19, Mat. 1357, Luke 424, Luke 725-30, John 443, Acts 1119, Mat. 1526-27
Surah 349, 352, 7158, 578, 616
The Jews knew why Isa was there, and sought to kill him John 516-19, John 71, John 1147-57, John 196-7,12,2131, Mat. 1214, Mat. 263-4,14-15, Mat. 2724, Mark 141-2

You are striving to uphold the Nazarenes as an esoteric group that upheld teachings of mysticism. That's not what the Messiah (pbuh) is reported to have taught in the Gospel accounts, and he did not say he came to abolish the Law.

Jesus came to fulfill Law, not end it Mat. 517-18, Luke 2444-45
The Law is to be upheld Rom. 331, Rom. 212, Gal. 44, Rom. 71-7
"Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Rom. 331

I can't make you believe anything, especially when you don't believe the proof from your own Bible.

do you know what these 1st century Jewish groups believed? Do you know their approach to Torah?

See above. Read the New Testament.
Or are you saying there were no Bani Israel who followed the teachings of the Messiah? That can't be your claim because Peter was argued to be the 'minister unto the circumcised' while Paul is the 'minister unto the Gentiles'.

?But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." Gal. 27-9
?I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable.? Rom. 1516

So to ask what they believed, I need only point to the Bible.

To think the Quran is addressing the Essenes or other 1st century groups requires more than just your word. What about all the gnostic groups that existed in the 1st century, does the Quran address them too?? So I ask again, who were the Torah observant messianic Jews of the 7th century; in other words, who were these Nazarenes who believed in Christ and upheld Torah in 7th century Arabia?? I eagerly await your evidence, my guess is you have none.

You ignore the fact the Byzantine Empire enclosed the Nabatean lands, which comprised the displaced Bani Israel after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Prior to that the teachings of the Nazarenes and Christians went into those lands, as your own Bible states

"Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 210-11

"Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus." Gal. 117

If you want to say that the teachings reached as far as Arabia, disappeared for millennia, only to return 100 years ago, you are more than welcome to believe that. But I cannot without proof.

lol I already asked you for evidence that Paul taught pagan polytheism, but you didn't provide any. Instead you come back with disingenuous questions. If you have proof for your silly claims please bring them, otherwise stop repeating tired, old lies you got from islamic websites.

Sorry I don't have the time to listen to your 40 minute monologue, but if you can just bring your evidence, as was requested in my previous post, then I would be most appreciative.

So be it.

I am asked of my thoughts concerning Paul, the Pharisee bounty-hunter who claimed to have a vision of the Messiah upon a road that caused him to convert to Christianity. Do not think I seek to slander the man; he confesses his actions in Galatians 113-14. It is also written he admitted his Pharisee sect, along with his persecution against the Christians to King Agrippa in Acts 265-11.
As I was once a wicked man before Allah guided me to the Truth, and knowing it is taught all throughout the Bible and Quran that repentance of our wicked deeds and acting in a righteous manner proves a person?s faith through their actions, I do not seek to condemn Paul for his past. If he truly served Allah, then Paul?s actions and words would reflect this change in his heart.

Which leads to why I have issues with Paul and his teachings. I am a firm believer a man should be held to his word, yet Paul does not seem to be a man of his word much less honest. Paul admits he lied to convert people to his Trinitarian sect of Christianity.

Paul lied to convert Phil. 118, I Co. 920-21, Rom. 37
?For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?? Rom. 37
?What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.? Phil. 118

Now I have had Christians who tell me ?That?s not what those verses mean! You cannot lie to convert people to Christianity!? Understand that the versions of the Bible are numerous, I pull verses from the most commonly used King James version.
?And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.? I Co. 920-21

A man who lies in order to convert to his beliefs is not someone I trust. When I speak to people I do not act like I am of their faith to convert them. I have been asked ?Why do you say ?Allah? instead of ?God?? Because when I say ?Allah? you know Who I speak of, and it cannot be confused with the multiple terms of ?God? that are bandied about today in numerous faiths. I don?t dress as an Islamist or Jew in order to bring them to the light that is Al-Islam found in the Quran. I come to them as a Muslim, one who follows the deen perfected in the Quran and kept pure, protected, even now in our day in age.
Truth repels falsehood. To speak anything other than Truth, to act in any way other than a Truthful manner only weakens the foundation a man or woman stands on. It is warned in the Psalms
?Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness.? Psalm 523

So we as believers, be we Jews, Christians, or Muslims, must speak only the Truth. In the reported teachings of the Messiah, in John 843-44 he says of those who cannot understand his words
?Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own for he is a liar, and the father of it.? John 843-44

In case any Christian believes lying will be overlooked, I would ask you turn to Rev. 218. There is a description of those who will be in the Fire
?But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone which is the second death.? Rev. 218

Paul is also guilty of giving his opinion on matters, which shows all he taught cannot be considered to come from Allah. Allah does not make mistakes nor forgets.
Not all is inspired by God I Cor. 725
"Now concerning virgins, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy." I Cor. 725

Paul taught misogny and subjugation of women

Hijab I Cor. 113-6
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered." I Cor. 113-6

Men dominate women I Cor. 113, I Peter 31-7, Eph. 522-24
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." I Cor. 113
"Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered." I Pet. 31-7
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing." Eph. 522-24

Women have no rights I Tim. 211-15, I Cor. 1434-36
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
I Tim. 211-15
"Let your women keep silence in the churches for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?" I Cor. 1434-36

These teachings are where the teachings of hadith come from.

The Messiah (pbuh) repeatedly told those who listened to him that he said ONLY what Allah told him to speak.

"I can of mine own self do nothing as I hear I judge and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." John 530
"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world." John 826
"For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak." John 1249

The Messiah said ?Follow me?; he did not tell me I should follow anyone else unless they proved the came from Allah ? such is the Paraclete spoken of in John, Chapter 14 thru 16.

Spirit test
"Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God." I John 42-3

The Quran passes this test
"O Mary, surely God give you good news with a word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the Hereafter, and of those who are drawn nigh to God." Surah 345-46

Paul's spirit fails the test
"He asked 'Who are you, Lord?' The reply came, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.'" Acts 95
?And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.? Acts 228
"And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest." Acts 2615

Which leads to the matter of Paul?s ?conversion?.

Paul is reported in Acts to give testimony to his conversion upon the road, seeing a vision of the Messiah that led to his conversion to Christianity. This testimony is given in Act 93-9, Acts 226-21, and Acts 2612-18.

In each account the story is different.
In Acts 9 it is reported
?And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.? Acts 97

But in Acts 229 when speaking to a crowd Paul is reported to have said
?And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.? Acts 229

Already an inconsistency. Further proof of shenanigans. If this were an account revealed by Allah there would be no mistakes, no moments of forgetfulness, no inconsistencies.

This inconsistency is further compounded when speaking to King Agrippa in Act. 2612-18.
?At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
?And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.? Acts 2613-14

This is again odd as the Messiah is reported to have spoke Aramaic in the Gospel Accounts. A few examples can be found in Mat. 522, Mat. 624, Mat. 2746, Mark 541, Mark 734, Mark 1436, Mark 1534, Luke 169-13. There are others.

Adding insult to injury, he attempts to link himself to the Messiah in his writings
"For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time." I Cor. 153-8

I would ask people to look to Act 918, as Paul?s blindness was cured.
What is reported to have fell off of his eyes?
Scales. Acts 918
What creature in the Bible known for deception that has scales on its body?

These are the proofs in the Bible that led me to reject the teachings of Paul and follow only what the Messiah is reported to have taught in the Gospel Accounts. No where does the Messiah teach he is Allah, nor does he ask for worship. The Messiah taught to serve Allah and Allah alone ? no other.

There is none good but one, that is, God Mat. 1916-19

So do not say ?Trinity? or ?Three?. Desist, it is much better for you.

Those who do not uphold the teachings of the Messiah be warned Turn to Mat. 721-23, and read the words of the Messiah. You will be told by him on the Day of Judgment ?I never knew you depart from me, ye that work iniquity.?

It was in following the Messiah?s teachings, Truth given to him by our Creator, Allah, that led me to the pure, protected deen of Al-Islam.
I hope this is a word of caution all who profess to follow the teachings of Paul alongside the teachings of the Messiah (pbuh). You are being deceived.
There is only One God, the All Mighty, the All Knowing, Our Creator. He does not beget nor is He begotten. Those who say the Messiah is Allah speak a great falsehood, as the Messiah was just a man ? a mighty Prophet of Allah who will be exalted in the presence of our Creator; something our Creator tells us in the Quran. But the Messiah is not God. There is no God but Allah.
Bear witness I submit to Allah, Lord of all beings.

More evasions. Bring your proof from the bible that Paul intended to overthrow Jesus' teachings in favour of a pagan religion, thanks.

Paul taught the need for a blood sacrifice Eph.17; Rom.58
Paul taught the life, death, and resurrection - needed for Allah's grace through an intermediary in the Messiah Rom.109, Ph. 28-9, Rom. 109-11

That's not counting the proven addition inserted into the Bible to bolster the pagan Trinitarian doctrine I John 57

Paul does not teach what the Messiah is reported to teach.

Paul
"For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living." Rom. 149
The Messiah
"Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living;" Luke 2038

Paul
"The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Rom. 139
The Messiah
"And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." Matt. 2237-40

Paul
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace." Eph. 17
"who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification." Rom. 425
The Messiah
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matt. 614-15

Paul
"for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord's sight but also in the sight of men." II Cor.821
"Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all men." Rom. 1217
"he who thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men." Rom. 1418
"just as I try to please all men in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved." I Cor. 1033
The Messiah
"But he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts; for what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God." Luke 1615
"Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets." Luke.626

Paul
"All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law." Rom. 212
The Messiah
"He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day." John 1248

Paul
"I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died; the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me." Rom. 79-10
The Messiah
"And he said to him, Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." Matt. 1917

Paul
"For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel." I Cor. 415
"I appeal to you for my child, Ones'imus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment." Phil. 110
The Messiah
"And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven." Matt. 239

Paul
"so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom. 521
The Messiah
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 524

Paul
"And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third, teachers," I Cor. 1228
"And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers," Eph. 411
"For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth." I Tim. 27
"For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher," II Tim. 111
Messiah
"But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one Teacher, and you are all brethren." Matt. 238

Paul
"For Christ, our paschal lamb, has been sacrificed." I Cor. 57
"And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Eph. 52
Messiah
"Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.'" Matt. 913, Mat. 127

And this is just the tip of the iceberg in deviation of Paul's teachings from the Messiah's.

Let's get to the crux of the matter The Sacrifice.

Paul states
"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." I Cor. 1512-14

This is a falsification test. If it can be proven that the Messiah was not resurrected, then the faith of Christians is in vain - based on falsehood. There wasn't a Sacrifice.

We won't use the Quran at all. Let's us turn to the Bible and see what Paul teaches against what the Messiah (pbuh) is reported to say.

Paul gives clear definition of what the resurrection will be like, even stating what the Messiah's reported resurrection was
"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven." I Cor. 1535-47

Paul makes it crystal clear The resurrected body is a spiritual body.

What does the Messiah (pbuh) say, according to the reports in the Gospel accounts
"And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
And he took it, and did eat before them." Luke 2436-43

Proof is given from your own Bible. If you won't believe the Messiah (pbuh), who will you believe?
The Messiah was not resurrected, nor was he slain. Your faith is in vain.

There is no God but Allah. All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all beings.
Bear witness I submit my will to Him.

Proof is given.
Peace.

Hoppean

Reread the part that says "as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today" and ask yourself who isn't getting it. P I bring forth proof from your own Books, as well as the teachings of the Yahudians who claim to be descendants of the Bani Israel, as shown above. A simple Google search will assist in your research as well. If you want to believe the Nazarenes began 100 years ago, go for it. The proof given earlier refutes it, as do current historical teachings.

This is becoming comical, not only did I never say "the Nazarenes began 100 years ago", but now you have completely changed your argument. Now all your claiming is that there was a sect of "Jewish-Christians" called nazarenes ~2000 years ago. So what? Your original claim was that the term "nasara" in the Quran was addressing, among others, this very "Nazarene" group from the 1st century; you then attempted to link this group to the present "The Nazarenes uphold the Torah and what remains of the Injeel along with the additions; believing the Messiah is the son of Allah, virgin birth, etc., as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today." Since the only such group, in modern times, that even remotely resembles what you described, is the Messianic jewish congregations, I asked a simple question Did this group (messianic jews) exist in 7th century Arabia?? The answer is obviously not, so how are you applying these Quranic verses to people who didn't even exist at the time of the Quranic revelation??

So you provided evidence that there were groups mentioned in northern Italy, that were called (by others) "Nazarenes". I'm not sure if you realize this, but this proves nothing with regard to continuity between these groups and 1st century "Nazarenes". In fact, it's just more anachronism to assume that the practices of these "sabbath-keeping Christians" in the 12-13th century were a continuation of 1st century "Jewish-Christian" practices. More importantly, what happened after the 13th century, where are your "Nazarenes" for the last 700 years?? Even more importantly, were they in Arabia in the 7th century??

Either way though, you are wrong to suggest that modern messianic jewish practices have anything to do with these other sects called "Nazarenes"; whose practices, themselves, may have nothing to do with each other. And you are certianly far from demonstrating that there was anything resembling a community of "Nazarenes" in Arabia in the 7th century, let alone that the Quran was addressing them.

So to clear up this matter Do you believe that there has been a continuous community of "Nazarenes" since the 1st century?? If so, who are they now?? And who were they in 7th century Arabia??

You are striving to uphold the Nazarenes as an esoteric group that upheld teachings of mysticism.

lol I am "striving" to get you to show me some "Nazarenes" from 7th century Arabia. By the way, it's your own sources which say that the 11th century "Nazarenes" were gnostics, so if they are a continuation of 1st century "Nazarenes" then that would make the latter gnostics as well!

That's not what the Messiah (pbuh) is reported to have taught in the Gospel accounts, and he did not say he came to abolish the Law.

Jesus came to fulfill Law, not end it Mat. 517-18, Luke 2444-45
The Law is to be upheld Rom. 331, Rom. 212, Gal. 44, Rom. 71-7
"Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Rom. 331

I can't make you believe anything, especially when you don't believe the proof from your own Bible.

lol Paul wrote Romans and Galatians, you know the guy you claim changed Christ's teachings?

See above. Read the New Testament.
Or are you saying there were no Bani Israel who followed the teachings of the Messiah? That can't be your claim because Peter was argued to be the 'minister unto the circumcised' while Paul is the 'minister unto the Gentiles'.

What??

"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision." Gal. 27-9
?I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable.? Rom. 1516

So to ask what they believed, I need only point to the Bible.

Wait I thought the bible couldn't be trusted? How do we know those quotes weren't later insertions? Oh well nevermind, do you realize that you are gratuitously assuming that the 1st century "Nazarene" sect is identical to the description of the early church in the bible?? What about the ebionites or gnostic sects, don't tell me you're abandoning them now??

You ignore the fact the Byzantine Empire enclosed the Nabatean lands, which comprised the displaced Bani Israel after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Prior to that the teachings of the Nazarenes and Christians went into those lands, as your own Bible states

"Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 210-11

This proves what exactly?? That these are your "Nazarenes in Arabia"?? These were jews and jewish converts, who had not accepted Christ! Wow you just refuted yourself!!

"Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus." Gal. 117

lol now this one was classic!! So Paul, the evil spiritual father of the "Sabines" aka Roman Catholics, is now responsible for converting Torah observant "Nazarenes" in Arabia?? According to your own "definitions" wouldn't he be responsible for "Sabines" in Arabia, not "Nazarenes"??

If you want to say that the teachings reached as far as Arabia, disappeared for millennia, only to return 100 years ago, you are more than welcome to believe that. But I cannot without proof.

Your "proof" is self conradictory nonsense.

So let's summarize, I asked the following questions

Were there Messianic Jews (or anything resembling them) in 7th century Arabia? No evidence was provided that such a group existed, or how the Quran could be addressing them.
Where does Paul teach pagan polytheism?? After lots of webpaste, presumbaly from islamic propaganda sites, we find no evidence provided for this silly claim.
If Paul was "accused of being a leader of the Nazarenes", whose teachings went to Arabia, why do you contrast his "Christianity" with the "Nazarenes" of the 1st century?? Was Paul a Nazarene or was he a pagan polytheist, teaching a syncretic religion?? No answer was given.
Where does Paul intend to overthrow Jesus' teachings?? I think we got an attempted answer, although it's enough to make Zakir Naik, or the late Ahmed Deedat blush.

raginggaijin

This is becoming comical, not only did I never say "the Nazarenes began 100 years ago", but now you have completely changed your argument. Now all your claiming is that there was a sect of "Jewish-Christians" called nazarenes ~2000 years ago. So what?

So you admit their existence.

Your original claim was that the term "nasara" in the Quran was addressing, among others, this very "Nazarene" group from the 1st century; you then attempted to link this group to the present "The Nazarenes uphold the Torah and what remains of the Injeel along with the additions; believing the Messiah is the son of Allah, virgin birth, etc., as still found in the Messianic Christianity practiced today." Since the only such group, in modern times, that even remotely resembles what you described, is the Messianic jewish congregations, I asked a simple question Did this group (messianic jews) exist in 7th century Arabia?? The answer is obviously not, so how are you applying these Quranic verses to people who didn't even exist at the time of the Quranic revelation??

You are creating a strawman, striving to state I am upholding the Messianic Jews are Nazarenes, when I state the teachings of the Nazarenes are still found in the Messianic Christians today.
As well, you continue

So you provided evidence that there were groups mentioned in northern Italy, that were called (by others) "Nazarenes". I'm not sure if you realize this, but this proves nothing with regard to continuity between these groups and 1st century "Nazarenes". In fact, it's just more anachronism to assume that the practices of these "sabbath-keeping Christians" in the 12-13th century were a continuation of 1st century "Jewish-Christian" practices. More importantly, what happened after the 13th century, where are your "Nazarenes" for the last 700 years?? Even more importantly, were they in Arabia in the 7th century??

Proof is given from Historical record that such groups existed up until the 11th Century and beyond. You dismiss it, demanding proof of proof.

Either way though, you are wrong to suggest that modern messianic jewish practices have anything to do with these other sects called "Nazarenes"; whose practices, themselves, may have nothing to do with each other. And you are certianly far from demonstrating that there was anything resembling a community of "Nazarenes" in Arabia in the 7th century, let alone that the Quran was addressing them.

"The Jews say, 'The Christians stand not on anything'; the Christians say, 'The Jews stand not on anything'; yet they recite the Book. So too the ignorant say the like of them. God shall decide between them on the Day of Resurrection touching their differences." Surah 2113

So to clear up this matter Do you believe that there has been a continuous community of "Nazarenes" since the 1st century?? If so, who are they now?? And who were they in 7th century Arabia??

lol I am "striving" to get you to show me some "Nazarenes" from 7th century Arabia. By the way, it's your own sources which say that the 11th century "Nazarenes" were gnostics, so if they are a continuation of 1st century "Nazarenes" then that would make the latter gnostics as well!

lol Paul wrote Romans and Galatians, you know the guy you claim changed Christ's teachings?

What??

Wait I thought the bible couldn't be trusted? How do we know those quotes weren't later insertions? Oh well nevermind, do you realize that you are gratuitously assuming that the 1st century "Nazarene" sect is identical to the description of the early church in the bible?? What about the ebionites or gnostic sects, don't tell me you're abandoning them now??

This proves what exactly?? That these are your "Nazarenes in Arabia"?? These were jews and jewish converts, who had not accepted Christ! Wow you just refuted yourself!!

lol now this one was classic!! So Paul, the evil spiritual father of the "Sabines" aka Roman Catholics, is now responsible for converting Torah observant "Nazarenes" in Arabia?? According to your own "definitions" wouldn't he be responsible for "Sabines" in Arabia, not "Nazarenes"??

Your "proof" is self conradictory nonsense.

So let's summarize, I asked the following questions

Were there Messianic Jews (or anything resembling them) in 7th century Arabia? No evidence was provided that such a group existed, or how the Quran could be addressing them.
Where does Paul teach pagan polytheism?? After lots of webpaste, presumbaly from islamic propaganda sites, we find no evidence provided for this silly claim.
If Paul was "accused of being a leader of the Nazarenes", whose teachings went to Arabia, why do you contrast his "Christianity" with the "Nazarenes" of the 1st century?? Was Paul a Nazarene or was he a pagan polytheist, teaching a syncretic religion?? No answer was given.
Where does Paul intend to overthrow Jesus' teachings?? I think we got an attempted answer, although it's enough to make Zakir Naik, or the late Ahmed Deedat blush.

So you have nothing to bring forth that refutes what is given above, taken from the Bible you profess to follow and Historical record. Proof is given from the Bible the teachings of Paul are opposite of what the Messiah (pbuh) is reported to teach, yet you dismiss them. Pagan practices of blood sacrifice and mediators between man and Allah. It is easy enough to see the creation of the Roman Catholic Church by Paul is steeped in pagan sun worship, mother-son worship, and worship of the pagan gods of old. I can continue to bring quotes from Paul's teachings to show this syncretism, as well as the pagan syncretism found in the Hebrew Bible, which you call the Old Testament.
But as you dismiss them as 'quotes from Islamic websites', you are not here to learn but to argue. Such are your choices.
Yet you bring only anger and explanation based on conjecture and no proof? And you expect me to continue discussion with you when all you have done is scream in indignation? Please, such behavior is unbecoming and does not uphold the teachings found in any of the Books revealed by Allah. You profess to follow the Messiah (pbuh), yet you ignore teachings

End disputes quickly Mat. 525
Love and forgive your enemies Mat. 543-45
Whatever causes you sin, get rid of it Mat. 529-30

I don't think you understand what I am doing here. I'm not here to guide you. As you continue to uphold pagan teachings, and cannot prove they were taught by the Messiah nor authorized in any Book revealed to man, I leave you be to go along the path of your choosing. You will come to know the Truth, though it may be on Judgment Day when it is too late.
I am not here to bring you to Al-Islam. I only bring forth proof of why I believe what I believe. While your words bear witness you uphold nothing as you bring nothing to refute that which is given.
Who was the person who calmly brought proof to show why he believed what he believes?
Who was the person who raged into the aether without bringing anything of substance?
Those who come behind will read our words and see who is given knowledge upheld by proof, and who follows their own desires.

Such is the deen - the way of life - of Al-Islam. )
Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

I will bid you 'Peace' and leave you with these teachings from your Bible
Who prostrated himself while praying? Mat. 2639
Who greeted fellow believers with "Peace be unto you!" Luke 2436
Who taught us to fast? Mat. 616
Who taught us to care for the poor, weak, hungry, widow, and orphan? Mat. 540-42, Mat. 61
Who taught to worship God and only God? Luke 48, John 173,12, Luke 1819
Who taught to speak good words to everyone? Mat. 712, Mat. 612, Mark 1125-26
Even the brother of the Messiah (pbuh) taught us to say 'God willing' when we speak of upcoming events. "Insha'Allah" James 415
The Messiah (pbuh) was a Muslim.

Peace. )

Hoppean

So you have nothing to bring forth that refutes what is given above, taken from the Bible you profess to follow and Historical record. Proof is given from the Bible the teachings of Paul are opposite of what the Messiah (pbuh) is reported to teach, yet you dismiss them. Such are your choices.

Sir, I have neither the time, nor the inclination to "refute" your insane fantasies about Paul. You're welcome to go read a good Christian commentary on the verses mentioned. Although, frankly, the work is rather childish, and anyone who can think, can see that there is nothing to "refute". You're tilting at windmills. You literally flooded the thread with random, out of context, quotes, then demanded that these "contradictions" be explained. As if anyone was going to write a detailed explanation of each alleged "contradiction". Of course, that was your strategy, wasn't it?? For instance, you claim that the three naratives of Paul's vision are "contradictory", I know exactly where you got this webpaste from, and if you had an ounce of honesty you would have simply gone to a Christian doctor or theologian and read their commentary on those passages. Instead you inserted it in your post, knowing that it was completely irrelevant to your claim that Paul taught "pagan polytheism" and "syncretic religion", or that Paul intended to overthrow Jesus' teachings. You threw it in there, hoping that no one would remember what exactly you were being asked to prove, and so you could claim to be "providing evidence". Thanks for proving what an insane liar you truly are!

If you were at all sincere you would have brought one "contradiction" at a time, presumably the strongest ones, and asked for it to be reconciled. Rather than the "throw everything you can, and hope something sticks" approach.

I don't think you understand what I am doing here. I'm not here to guide you. As you continue to uphold pagan teachings, and cannot prove they were taught by the Messiah nor authorized in any Book revealed to man, I leave you be to go along the path of your choosing.

Here you go again First, you know nothing of my beliefs, as I have not disclosed them to you. Secondly, you are once again insinuating that the bible teaches paganism, which you failed to substaintiate, despite all the webpaste.

I will bid you 'Peace' and leave you with these teachings from your Bible
Who prostrated himself while praying? Mat. 2639
Who greeted fellow believers with "Peace be unto you!" Luke 2436
Who taught us to fast? Mat. 616
Who taught us to care for the poor, weak, hungry, widow, and orphan? Mat. 540-42, Mat. 61
Who taught to worship God and only God? Luke 48, John 173,12, Luke 1819
Who taught to speak good words to everyone? Mat. 712, Mat. 612, Mark 1125-26
Even the brother of the Messiah (pbuh) taught us to say 'God willing' when we speak of upcoming events. "Insha'Allah" James 415
The Messiah (pbuh) was a Muslim.

Have you ever looked up the word "anachronism"??

raginggaijin

Have you ever looked up the word "anachronism"??

Manifest proof of your ignorance of the teachings found in the Quran.
You believe 'Al-Islam' is a new faith created in 600 AD, and the term 'Muslim' an Arabic convention.
The deen of Al-Islam is the creed of Abraham (pbuh), and we were named 'Muslims' - the ones who submit - before the revelation of the Quran and after.

"and struggle for God as is His due, for He has chosen you, and has laid on you no impediment in your religion, being the creed of your father Abraham; He named you Muslims (almuslimeena) aforetime and in this, that the Messenger might be a witness against you, and that you might be witnesses against mankind. So perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and hold you fast to God; He is your Protector -- an excellent Protector, an excellent Helper." Surah 2278

I'm not an Arab. I'm white, blue-eyes, Scot/Irish American born into a Trinitarian Christian family.
Al-Islam is a way of life, revealed in the Quran for all nations, all beings.

Enjoy this life. Surah 1430

Peace.