Reincarnation
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before i didn't think it was possible (reincarnation), but i read so much on it, it does seem to be real. unles it's a wild coincidence that a reseasrch of thousands of people over the period of several decades around the world reporting basically same thing, same experience...
i guess how one reads the quran, they can interpret certain verses like that, who's to say who's right or wrong...
there's people who interpret 'obey the messenger' as following hadith, others now (for example)...it mentions countless of times how new bodies will be created after disbelievers kept asking 'will we return after we become dust?
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Yes, perhaps the problem is a semantic one - resurrection, recreation, rebirth, reincarnation. Maybe they all refer to the same process - getting another body so that our consciousness can be expressed. I consider the body like a radio receiver and transmitter - without a body, despite our consciousness, we can't communicate to others or receive their messages (in our physical existence anyway). So in that way I consider the body important and indispensible until our consciousness is able to be downloaded to a computer of some sort (another form of 'body'.
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hmm, perhaps, yes, it could be the same thing, only we interpret it differently.
most muslims are conditioned to automatically reject the idea of reincarnation and they got a fixed idea what 'heaven' and 'hell' is so they can't see reincarnation as a part of islam.but what is a world without reincarnation... what happens to kids who die before age 5 for example... as in quran we are told we'd stay here long enough... so where do they go, heaven? hell? such places are EARNED, not privileged...
who's to say that once a soul detaches from one physical body that it can't/shouldn't attach itself to another one years later?i for one can't believe what some say that we have only 1 life here and only 2 destinations after it... what kind of justice is that?
somebody lives lets say 20 years, does some bad things, now has to suffer an ETERNITY? is that the point of some peoples existance? to have 1 (short) life and to end up in hell forever...
or to just be born, and die few months later, and we say aaaw, it's a baby, he has to go to heaven...
what kind of image of God does that make?
why would He create humanity, knowing that most will stray in this life, and then put them to suffer forever and ever and ever and ever... i thought it's 'we are from God and to god we shall return', not 'we are from God and to hell we may go'... souls did come from God, as He blew of His spirit in us... why would part of His spirit go to hell?so with reincarnation, the meaning of existance changes, everybody has a chance of purifying themselves, if not now, then later, but eventually we all get to return to God... doesn't mean we can do evil things now, as that corrupts and slows the process...
i like to compare it to the system we have here in this life... a child that starts school at age 7 lets say, after finishing first grade he's not qualified to run a company... there's a long process, each grade is like a life... each test is a bit harder... after finishing elementary school (this 3rd level/realm of existance) we go to high school (another/higher realm), if we fail the grade, we don't get expelled from school, we just repeat it... and depending on points we make (for up to 100 (for example) we can go to this, this or that high school... if we have 100-150 we can go to that one, that one or that one...) or should i say... depends what we did in this life, after we die, and can reincarnate in that life, that life or that life... eventually, going to college/higher realms, then getting a job at a company, spending years there and getting promoted, then taking over... /reaching the highest level/realm/heaven )
Downloading our consciousness into a new body seems more like an incarnation than a resurrection.
well what is resurrection... the process described in quran (which corresponds with what we've found through research) is that body disintegrates, it becomes part of earth, plants absorb it, same ex-body atoms now become part of plants, fruits, we pick fruits and eat them... (for example, a pregnant woman) and it becomes a part of a new body created...
so we in a way do come from earth... well, the body... soul is another thing"How can you deny God, when you were dead and God gave you life? Then God will cause you to die, and then revive you, and then you will be returned to God." (Quran 22
"From the (earth) did We Create you, and into it Shall We return you, And from it shall We Bring you out once again." (The Quran, 2055).
A person is the self and the memory. This our body may not be relevant - words, definitions, common usages aside.
what do you mean?
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Nerspi, your post on reincarnation is an excellent summary and clarification of my own. Thank you. And reading the Quran this way is, for me, much more in line with Mohammed's injunction to 'take the best reading'. It is hard to see social justice in the heaven and hell scenario as interpreted by some Muslims. Even humans realise that rehabilitation and education is better than 'punishment alone' for offenders. Surely God is much more concerned about the rehabilitation and education of his creation than even those creatures.
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Islam doesn?t agree with the reincarnation theory. Let us look at what Allah Almighty said in the Noble Quran ?From the (earth) did We Create you, and into it Shall We return you, And from it shall We Bring you out once again. (The Noble Quran, 2055)? ? ?And Allah has produced you from the earth, Growing (gradually), And in the End He will return you Into the (earth), And raise you forth (Again at the Resurrection).? (The Noble Quran, 7117-1?
?Nor will they there Taste Death, except the first Death; and He will preserve Them from the Penalty Of the Blazing Fire. (The Noble Quran, 4456)?
? ?Is it (the case) that We shall not die, except our first death, And that we Shall not be punished?? Verily this is The supreme achievement! For the like of this Let all strive, Who wish to strive. (The Noble Quran, 3758-61)?
From the above Noble Verses, we clearly see that Allah Almighty created us to die only once. This clearly refutes the reincarnation theory from the Islamic perspectives.
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"Reincarnation" can only be supported, if it is not about a specific person, but the essence of Allah itself. (With the understanding of that) The lifeforce, of all beings, is Allah. All consciousness is Allah. Therefore one could say, that it is the same force, "reincarnating" itself, for as long as this process should go on.
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Asalaamu alaykum Tamara, I agree with the following statements
Yes, perhaps the problem is a semantic one - resurrection, recreation, rebirth, reincarnation. Maybe they all refer to the same process - getting another body so that our consciousness can be expressed. I consider the body like a radio receiver and transmitter - without a body, despite our consciousness, we can't communicate to others or receive their messages (in our physical existence anyway). So in that way I consider the body important and indispensible until our consciousness is able to be downloaded to a computer of some sort (another form of 'body'.
"Reincarnation" can only be supported, if it is not about a specific person, but the essence of Allah itself. (With the understanding of that) The lifeforce, of all beings, is Allah. All consciousness is Allah. Therefore one could say, that it is the same force, "reincarnating" itself, for as long as this process should go on.
The second statement I completely agree that life is a constant reincarnation of Allah (swt) or Consciousness ... The larger question I think you want answered is whether the subjective experience currently being experienced in your body will also be a subjective experience in another form or body on this planet - and to this I would say YES, it very well could be that, and in my belief it is going to be another subjective experience on this planet, you will live another life on this planet as whatever you/God/consciousness manifest as ... every bit as you are currently experiencing life in your current body you will experience it again. This makes sense to me.
Farhan
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Islam doesn?t agree with the reincarnation theory. Let us look at what Allah Almighty said in the Noble Quran ?From the (earth) did We Create you, and into it Shall We return you, And from it shall We Bring you out once again. (The Noble Quran, 2055)? ? ?And Allah has produced you from the earth, Growing (gradually), And in the End He will return you Into the (earth), And raise you forth (Again at the Resurrection).? (The Noble Quran, 7117-1?
?Nor will they there Taste Death, except the first Death; and He will preserve Them from the Penalty Of the Blazing Fire. (The Noble Quran, 4456)?
? ?Is it (the case) that We shall not die, except our first death, And that we Shall not be punished?? Verily this is The supreme achievement! For the like of this Let all strive, Who wish to strive. (The Noble Quran, 3758-61)?
From the above Noble Verses, we clearly see that Allah Almighty created us to die only once. This clearly refutes the reincarnation theory from the Islamic perspectives.
With all due love and respect, your Islam doesn't agree with the reincarnation theory, but my Islam does. Islam is ultimately between an individual and Allah.
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path
Care to give an analysis of how reincarnation is compatible with your reading of Islam? Thanks.
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CavemanDoctor,
Salaam.
2.28 How can you reject the Faith in Allah? Seeing that you were without life, and he gave you life. Then he will cause you to die and (He) will again bring you back to life; and again to Him you will return.
I posted this quote in the thread about hell. I mention hell because I think true hell isn't about eternal fire, it's about feeling/being separated from the Sustainer. I think that everyone's ultimate destiny is to return to the Source. However, I willingly admit that I am fairly new to the Koran, and maybe I'm just using that verse to espouse my spiritual preconceptions (and btw, here is an article about that quote http//rose-sufi-crescent.blogspot.com/2007/02/islam-sufism-and-reincarnation.html ). What do you think?
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That verse is certainly not incompatible with the concept of reincarnation. It could be interpreted in different ways, however. Definitely not a surefire ringing endorsement of reincarnation.
I say that as someone who is grappling with believing in reincarnation. There is quite a bit of convincing data supporting it. And I tend to agree with your reuniting with the Source idea.
The other verse pointed at in the link you gave is also quite ambiguous in this context.
Keep us updated on your studies in this topic. I'm always interested to hear people's takes on it.
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Er, I know no one's asking, but this is my 181st lifetime on earth, or so i've been told ;D That's beside the point though. Agree with Path about "your/my Islam" thing. Reincarnation can only be understood/proven personally. Very personal it is. Irrational behaviors or emotional problems are often a clue, from what I gather so far. So if you don't believe it, heck what do I care.
- Many people tried to quantify it die twice, live twice, and then suddenly you live forever (either in hell or heaven). Here's an alternative, instead of reading it in a linear fashion, what if you read it as a cycle?
...You were dead, and then He livens you up. Then He makes you dead. Then He makes you alive. Then, to Him you return.
By the way, just saying, removing reincarnation from your belief makes you easier to control by fear, you know... fear of death, fear of hell etc, even fear of God. Not cool. "Fear" is itself the absence (or in Path's word, "separation" of the Divine, and that is the irony for so many talking about faith. That is only part of the test however. The separation, the duality. I think the same too, Path Everyone will return to the Source, that is, without separation at all. And I take 228 as a confirmation. Evil is temporary, Divinity is forever. I think the only question for evil is how long? How long are you going to play it? How long are you going to stand it? This changed my view drastically. It set me a much greater perspective. There is no one, nothing to hate at all. What will happen if people realize that they have gone through different races, different faiths, different stories? Oh, only more perspective. An executioner can 'take' the life of a serial murderer without hate (was gonna say with love, if it isn't too cheesy), knowing that the person he is about to kill will definitely return to the Source. As part of the Divine. (OK, the word "part" might get you complaining in 3D that, 'Oh but God can't be divided into parts!' Well, yes, and here we are, thinking that we must be somehow "separated" from God? Ah, yes... That's what this 3D world is for, isn't it?)
Back to 228, what if we interpret "dead" as "(being) separated" (as in, "those who have lost faith are essentially dead"
You were separated, and then He livens you up. Then He makes you separated. Then He makes you alive... Then, to Him you return.
Many ways to interpret it that way too. One is that we can "return" while we 'live' on this earth, fully enlightened beyond karma (ascended, if you will), doing cool tricks, saying cool stuff that people will quote (heck even made into scripture hundreds of years later...), raising the vibrations of the earth...
A joke the quickest way you can prove reincarnation to someone is to kill him, so he can get to other side of the veil and see it for himself. There is however, no guarantee that he'll remember a bit when he gets back here. Plus you've just set yourself a karma.