2:238 - evidence FOR/AGAINST a 'middle' prayer
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Salaam almarh0m,
Peace
Please see the topic of this thread and read my previous post before attacking my understanding of salat . You never see people praying at a funeral ? You have never been to a wedding reception on time ? Or do you you usually attend gathering without having a bath or a shower before you go ? Sorry to tell you this , but I and most people that I know have showers at least twice a day whether it is winter , spring , summer or autum .
Peace
almarh0m
In no ways I mean to hurt you or your feelings, but I wanted to make you see that your understanding of Salaat do not tally with AlQuraan. Please re-read my prev post to get my point, then it is upto you to accept it or not.
Please accept my apologies if my post hurt you in anyways.
And nice to know that you take shower twice in all seasons, mashaAllah. Allah loves the one who are clean
And very intelligently you take your topic from Salaat to Shower anyways, not a problem both starts with "S"
May Allah guide us all towards the truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Peace
Please see the topic of this thread and read my previous post before attacking my understanding of salat . You never see people praying at a funeral ? You have never been to a wedding reception on time ? Or do you you usually attend gathering without having a bath or a shower before you go ? Sorry to tell you this , but I and most people that I know have showers at least twice a day whether it is winter , spring , summer or autum .
Peace
almarh0m
Peace almarh0m
Not that this is entirely relevant but its a quick question.
Do you really take at least two showers in one day or did you mean at least once every 2 days?
By any chance do you take ablution to be showering? -
Peace almarh0m
Not that this is entirely relevant but its a quick question.
Do you really take at least two showers in one day or did you mean at least once every 2 days?
By any chance do you take ablution to be showering?Peace
First of all , M.Khan asked if I do practice 56 before attending a gathering and I answered with " I have shower twice a day at least . Now is that an irrelevant answer ?
Secondly , I am happy to inform you that Twice means 2 times and we do take at least 2 showers per day .
Why would I need to take an ablution if I have a shower or a bath already ? Don't you take a shower/bath before you attend any community or public gathering ? And you called yourself a muslim ?
Peace
Almarh0m -
Peace
First of all , M.Khan asked if I do practice 56 before attending a gathering and I answered with " I have shower twice a day at least . Now is that an irrelevant answer ?
Secondly , I am happy to inform you that Twice means 2 times and we do take at least 2 showers per day .
Peace
Almarh0mPeace Almarh0m
You misunderstood me. I was not suggesting your answer to Mmkhan was irrelevant. I was suggesting that my question to you was not relevant.
I know what twice means. But everyone makes mistakes and I have only once come across someone who takes a shower twice a day so I thought it quiet amazing that another would do the same thing. So i considered the possibility that you may have made a mistake in the writing of your post.Yes i do believe that a shower fulfills ablution. What i was wondering was whether you considered ablution to be the equivalent of a shower. You may have had a different interpretation or understandinng which would have been of interest of me.
Why would I need to take an ablution if I have a shower or a bath already ? Don't you take a shower/bath before you attend any community or public gathering ? And you called yourself a muslim ?
I suppose if you did not think that I was criticising you in my last post your reply would have been nicer. I am not as dedicated as you are when it comes to showering. I shower once every two days unless there is some kind of special occasion like a wedding. I don't know how much muslim I am or if I am at all. But I doubt that my showering habits would damage my chances of qualifying as a muslim.
Take it easy
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Peace,
Why has part of this thread been moved here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602306.0
Imraan
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Peace,
Wakas. This is reproduced from what was sent to the trash thread.
The length of my post was due to
POST 1 was just an intro. POST 2 dealt with some references tha pointed me towards my understanding. POST 3 dealt with the passage in question as an example of salat. So you are right in that I needed to give background to my understanding of the salat concept before showing why I feel the passage is an example of salat. I think it amy also be because I tried to speak in terms that are general rather thyan specific.
Anyway, I'd be interested to hear which points need clarification, even if it's on a pm.
Imraan
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Peace
Precisely , nothing in the preceeding verses talked about "prayers , let alone "Middle Prayers" , why suddenly in 2238-239 the subject morphed into "The Middle Prayer" , and only to resume to the subject discussed in 2220-237 then again in 2240-242 ?
Peace
Almarh0m
Salamun Alaykum
Could someone please explain how did we come to translate and interpret al Salat al Wusta as "Middle Prayer" in the first place ? If this "Middle Prayer" is so important, then why, amongst 'The Five Ritual Salat' of the sectarian Muslims, not one of them specifically called Al Salat Al Wusta or Middle Prayer?
Like many other muslims, I read AQ regularly and have spent quite some time in reading and re-reading verses of AQ leading up to the much discussed and disputed verse, i.e. 2238 and 2239 . Unless I am mistaken, or unable to grasp what subject(s) is covered by the verses from 2220-2237, the topic discussed under these preceeding verses, were of Women & Orphans , whereas verse 2238-2239 were seen as talking about a distinctly different subject , and only to resume to the original subject discussed previously in the preceeding verses in 2240-2242?
Most of the evidence for "Middle Prayer" presented thus far, looks more like evidence against if we care to re-read or re-study the context and the subject discussed within the those verses. To refresh our memory, below are the verses under discussion .
220 (Their bearings) on this life and the Hereafter. They ask thee concerning orphans. Say "The best thing to do is what is for their good; if ye mix their affairs with yours, they are your brethren; but Allah knows the man who means mischief from the man who means good. And if Allah had wished, He could have put you into difficulties He is indeed Exalted in Power, Wise."
221 Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind That they may celebrate His praise.
222 They ask thee concerning women's courses. Say They are a hurt and a pollution So keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them in any manner, time, or place ordained for you by Allah. For Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean.
223 Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.
224 And make not Allah.s (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things.
225 Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
226 For those who take an oath for abstention from their wives, a waiting for four months is ordained; if then they return, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
227 But if their intention is firm for divorce, Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
228 Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
229 A divorce is only permissible twice after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah. so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others).
230 So if a husband divorces his wife (irrevocably), He cannot, after that, re-marry her until after she has married another husband and He has divorced her. In that case there is no blame on either of them if they re-unite, provided they feel that they can keep the limits ordained by Allah. Such are the limits ordained by Allah, which He makes plain to those who understand.
231 When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), either take them back on equitable terms or set them free on equitable terms; but do not take them back to injure them, (or) to take undue advantage; if any one does that; He wrongs his own soul. Do not treat Allah.s Signs as a jest, but solemnly rehearse Allah.s favours on you, and the fact that He sent down to you the Book and Wisdom, for your instruction. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is well acquainted with all things.
232 When ye divorce women, and they fulfil the term of their ('Iddat), do not prevent them from marrying their (former) husbands, if they mutually agree on equitable terms. This instruction is for all amongst you, who believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is (the course Making for) most virtue and purity amongst you and Allah knows, and ye know not.
233 The mothers shall give suck to their offspring for two whole years, if the father desires to complete the term. But he shall bear the cost of their food and clothing on equitable terms. No soul shall have a burden laid on it greater than it can bear. No mother shall be Treated unfairly on account of her child. Nor father on account of his child, an heir shall be chargeable in the same way. If they both decide on weaning, by mutual consent, and after due consultation, there is no blame on them. If ye decide on a foster-mother for your offspring, there is no blame on you, provided ye pay (the mother) what ye offered, on equitable terms. But fear Allah and know that Allah sees well what ye do.
234 If any of you die and leave widows behind, they shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten days When they have fulfilled their term, there is no blame on you if they dispose of themselves in a just and reasonable manner. And Allah is well acquainted with what ye do.
235 There is no blame on you if ye make an offer of betrothal or hold it in your hearts. Allah knows that ye cherish them in your hearts But do not make a secret contract with them except in terms Honourable, nor resolve on the tie of marriage till the term prescribed is fulfilled. And know that Allah Knoweth what is in your hearts, and take heed of Him; and know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.
236 There is no blame on you if ye divorce women before consummation or the fixation of their dower; but bestow on them (A suitable gift), the wealthy according to his means, and the poor according to his means;- A gift of a reasonable amount is due from those who wish to do the right thing.
237 And if ye divorce them before consummation, but after the fixation of a dower for them, then the half of the dower (Is due to them), unless they remit it or (the man's half) is remitted by him in whose hands is the marriage tie; and the remission (of the man's half) is the nearest to righteousness. And do not forget Liberality between yourselves. For Allah sees well all that ye do.
238 Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).239 If ye fear (an enemy), pray on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah.s praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before).
240 Those of you who die and leave widows should bequeath for their widows a year's maintenance and residence; but if they leave (The residence), there is no blame on you for what they do with themselves, provided it is reasonable. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
241 For divorced women Maintenance (should be provided) on a reasonable (scale). This is a duty on the righteous.
242 Thus doth Allah Make clear His Signs to you In order that ye may understand.
My sincere thanks in advance for any comment that helps to clear misperception or mis-understanding of the topic under discussion.
Peace
almarh0m
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Wakas,
Over the course of the past 2 years I have come to that conclusion also.
You did well to demonstrate the variance in significations of the superlative "wusta" in your first post by using 6828 and 589.
These 2 uses of wusta serve to support this position more than the adjective and verb in 2143 and 1005.
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Peace
I think "wusta" is the opposite of walking/riding.
How many times do people naturally change clothes per day? TWICE. Once in the morning and another time in the evening.
Those TWO times plus the ONE time period between the night learning connection and the daybreak learning connection, make THREE.
I don't agree with this. If the period between the night salat and the daybreak salat were ONE period, why would the verse mention "when you are changing your clothes" in between these two different timings, rather than saying "when you change your clothes and after the night salat and before the daybreak salat" or "after the night salat and before the daybreak salat and when you change your clothes"? Also, if it were one time period, I think it would mention "after the night salat" before "before the daybreak salat". Furthermore, the verse says there are 3 times, then goes on to mention these times separately.
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Post by Joe Betik
salam wakas & all,
maybe now it's appropriate to read these verses
- Hafithoo AAala alssalawati waalssalati alwusta waqoomoo lillahi qaniteena
- Fa-in khiftum farijalan aw rukbanan fa-itha amintum faothkuroo Allaha kama AAallamakum ma lam takoonoo taAAlamoona
2237 is about divorce & the advise on how to behave after the divorce.
2240 is about widows & bequest.so 2238 and 2239 is nestled in between these two situations.
i do not say that it was wrong to hold a view that the two verses (238 & 239) are about prayers (contact or ritual), but that would make the two verses stand out like sore thumbs, since the general message of the verses between 238 to 241 is about marriage, divorce and life after divorce.
personally i am inclined to think that in 238 & 239, the message is still about marriage, divorce and life after divorce. since my understanding of 'salat' is more about 'relationship' (and all its derivatives and implications), i would take the verses to mean
- You (pl.) maintain the relationship as the relationship is central/pivotal, and you uphold in humility for the sake of God.
- But if you were fearful/intimidated, then it is ?a walk or a ride?, then when you are at ease, you should remember God since He has taught what you were never able to understand.
from the above verses we learn how important is to maintain cordial relationship even with our former spouse (ex-wife or ex-husband) and his/her family members. sometimes we may feel intimidated or threatened by divorce, yet God ask us to bear with it in humility for the sake of God. 'a walk or a ride' implies that no matter how difficult it is, we have to bear with it. some people understood the importance or the critical role played by good relationship, but some people don't. for those who have not understood or grasped the importance of relationship, they must take it in stride, i.e. 'a walk or a ride'. or simply, just go along with what God has advised us to do.
my post before this one was about the relationship with God, while this post is about the relationship between humans. the two posts before were about the relationship with the 'feel' in our hearts. 'feel' is a sign from God. like what you feel right now while reading this post (provided you have read this post in a peaceful/tranquil state of heart. reading with a mind full of ideas would not be beneficial to anyone.).
i post this one as an attempt to underline my proposition that 'salat' means 'relationship', and that relationship is never restricted to only the relationship with God, but with all that we are required to relate or to establish and maintain/uphold. and we could read on the explanation, establishment, maintaining/upholding and severing (if necessary) of relationship all over the place in the Qur-an.
the fruits/results of a good relationship with God is beyond words to explain. but perhaps i could say that in short, a good relationship with God will definitely ensure a good relationship with human beings and all of God's creations, thus the mention of establishing the relationship is mentioned in the first surah, "AAabdan itha salla" (9610.). i take this verse to mean "A servant is when he establishes the relationship." here, the effective meaning is the relationship is with God. this should be the first step to become a peacemaker (muslim).
in a relationship, we must communicate. it doesn't matter how (by signs, speech, or whatever), but for a relationship to grow and flourish there must be a communication between the parties involved. it could be a dialogue, but never a monologue. indeed, what is the meaning of a relationship, if there is no communication?
so in our relationship with God, we communicate. the prophets, as mentioned in the Qur-an, spoke to God. if we were to emulate the prophets, especially Ibrahim as the 'imam' (example) for us all, then we must speak to God. ask God anything, as long as it is solely for the purpose of turning yourself to become a true servant of God according to His plans (not what you think a servant of God should be). ask like Ibrahim. ask like Dawood. ask like Sulayman. ask like Maryam. ask like Zakariya. ask what you may, but learn from the narratives (hadith) in the Qur-an, insha-Allah you will get what you want. God never lies when He said, "Remember Me, then I will remember you." or when He said He is a watchful listener, or that He is closer than your very vein.
if God was to communicate to you, it is up to Him to employ the means and ways, or even the place or time (it is appropriate according to Him alone, not yours). it is not limited to speech, nor the feel in your heart (gut feelings?). it might be in the people you meet in the market, or the events before your very eyes.
so basically, for any recourse (e.g. after committing a mistake) or assistance and so forth, seek God. but first, establish the relationship by acknowledging ('rukuAA' God and peacefully and totally submit ('sujood' to God. let God be the guide, the teacher, the friend, the helper, etc., in short let Him be the sole reference.
so i think, this is more than enough to support my proposition that 'salat' means 'relationship' in the most general of terms (please read my first and earlier posts in this thread). i hope it helps.
and as usual, this is merely my personal comprehension. i never ask anyone to follow this idea since this could be wrong as it could be right for you. but a verification from God should be helpful to you.
cheers!
mohammed nohMoved from here.
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peace Joe,
I will briefly highlight some issues with your translation and understanding, some minor some major
- You (pl.) maintain (Arabic hafiz, guard/protect/preserve) (Arabic ala/on) the relationships (Arabic is plural) as (Arabic wa/and) the relationship (is) central/pivotal (evidence for "pivotal" as a possible meaning?), and you uphold in humility for the sake of God.
- But if you were fearful/intimidated (perfect tense feared), then it is ?a walk or a ride? (Arabic active participle walking or riding), then when you are at ease (Arabic amintum, safe/secure, connotation is bodily harm afaik), (Arabic fa/then/so) you should remember God since He has taught what you were never able to understand. (Arabic imperfect, ongoing not knowing)
from the above verses we learn how important is to maintain cordial relationship even with our former spouse (ex-wife or ex-husband) and his/her family members.
It is plural, thus I assume you are forced to interpret it as not only the relationship between ex-spouse but also family relationships. They may not have a family rendering your interpretation awkward in this case.
sometimes we may feel intimidated or threatened by divorce, yet God ask us to bear with it in humility for the sake of God.
No, "feared" is mentioned in 2239 not 2238.
'a walk or a ride' implies that no matter how difficult it is, we have to bear with it. some people understood the importance or the critical role played by good relationship, but some people don't. for those who have not understood or grasped the importance of relationship, they must take it in stride, i.e. 'a walk or a ride'. or simply, just go along with what God has advised us to do.
"walking or riding". You take it as an idiom, but what is the evidence other AQ usage or classical arabic dictionaries or none?
How do you reconcile that in your view in 2238 you say its about ex-spouse, and you say the fear in 2239 is about divorce. The order is unusual, and could only mean one takes the divorce in their stride.
Secondly, what if the reason for divorce is that the spouse was someone bad and so was their family, why guard such relationships post-divorce? Why is this central/pivotal?
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Going to revive this thread. Here is my current understanding
2238 Guard/Preserve/Maintain/Guard over - the/all the - duties/commitments/bonds/relationships, - including - the central duty/bond/commitment/relationship, - and/and so/that is - you shall stand/persist - devoutly - for/to God.
2239 If you are in a state of worry/fear, then take a walk or a ride. Then when/Once you become relaxed/at ease, remember/then remember God because he has taught you what you did not know.
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Going to revive this thread. Here is my current understanding
2238 Guard/Preserve/Maintain/Guard over - the/all the - duties/commitments/bonds/relationships, - including - the central duty/bond/commitment/relationship, - and/and so/that is - you shall stand/persist - devoutly - for/to God.
2239 If you are in a state of worry/fear, then take a walk or a ride. Then when/Once you become relaxed/at ease, remember/then remember God because he has taught you what you did not know.
And what would that be? What would distinguish such duty/bond/commitment/relationship as being central?
There is a distinction in the ayaat which is made by the use of the Arabic term al-wusta. You have interpreted it as central, which is fine, but explain what you interpret as a central duty/bond/commitment/relationship. -
We can see that "middle prayer" or any similar translation doesn't make sense. I will use Rashad Khalifa's translation as an example to illustrate this since he has misinterpreted and inserted words that aren't in 2239. This verse will show that "middle prayer" does not make sense.
The first thing to bear in mind is the context of the verses surounding 2238-239, which is marriage, contracts, divorce, God's comandments in regard to marriage and divorce, etc.
Now let us look at Rashad Khalifa's translation
2238 You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer, and devote yourselves totally to GOD.
2239 Under unusual circumstances, you may pray while walking or riding. Once you are safe, you shall commemorate GOD as He taught you what you never knew.
The key misinterpretations are present in 2239.
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"Fa khiftum" is not "under unusual circumstances." It means "If you fear" or "if you are in a state of fear" and similar expressions.
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The is no derivative of the root "SLW" in the verse
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According to this translation, tradiational prayer is supposed to be done on foot or riding. How are we to bow and prostrate according to the understanding? Where is an exemption listed for this if that is not the case? It is not clear and not a viable interpretation.
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Another key objection I have is How can we totally commemorate God and focus on our salat or "prayer" if we are worrying about something else? We need to understand what we are saying and be able to focus.
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The thing that stands out like a sore thumb is the following Rashad Khalifa and most other translators claim that these verses refer to prayer, and that prayer is to be done for the remembrance/commemoration of God. Why would it say "once/if you are secure/in a state of ease/relaxed, you shall remember God?" This implies that we aren't remembering/commemorating God during our time of fear/worry.
Thus, it makes sense to me that we are to go for a walk/ride to channel away or digest the stress/worry/fear so that we can again focus on remembering God.
Now, what is "al salat al wusta?" Well, for believers it should be their commitment/bond/relationship/duty with/to God. I see the phrase "wa qoomoo li llahi qaniteena" in two different ways, as shown in my translation. It can be understood as something seperate but related to "al salat al wusta," or it can be seen literally as "al salat al wusta."
Thus, my previous translation uses
2238 Guard/Preserve/Maintain/Guard over - the/all the - duties/commitments/bonds/relationships, - including - the central duty/bond/commitment/relationship, - and/and so/that is - you shall stand/persist - devoutly - for/to God.
"Wa" does not have to denote anything separate. In fact, the first "wa" has to be inclusive since we are told to "guard over/maintain all the salawat" - "al salat al wusta" however is emphasized. All of this makes sense when we look at the context. We are to maintain and carefully observe all our "salawat" and always remember what our "central" or "most important" or "most balancing" "salawat" is - it is the one we have with God and/or it is persisting/standing to/for God dutifully/devoutly.
I think the "al wusta" portion can be translated as "central," "most important," "balancing," "most balanced," "most right-minded," etc. I checked all the occurences of "WST" in The Reading and the meanings are as follows in the different verses
1005 "storming/penetrating into the midst/center"
589 "average" or "standard" or "most common"
6828 "Most balanced" or "most equitable" or "most right-minded"
2143 "Impartial" or "balanced" or "middle" or "central" - more likely "impartial/balanced"
Thus, I think "al salat al wusta" can refer to the "central" salat, which can be understood as the "most important" or "key" salat in our life. It could also be understood as the "most balancing" salat in our life. This could make sense in the context of divorce because you could have a partner that takes and takes without giving back, but God does not do that. Quite the contrary, what God gives us is everything and what we do for him is nothing or is almost 0.000000000... compared to what we do for him. Or, it can be seen as this relationship is the one that balances our life from all the bad things/worries that are going on. 2239 becomes very relevant.
Either way, whether "central," "most important" or "key" salat, and whether "and," "and so" or "that is" - the message is clear.
If you ask someone who is following his career closely and committing totally to his career and doing everything their boss says, staying late, dealing with getting yelled at, yearning for a promotion and only focusing on their job/area of expertise "what is your central/most important commitment?" They will name their career/job. Not so for those who trust in/acknoledge God. Similarly, if we understand it as "most balanced/balancing" commitment With all that is going on in a believer's/acknowledger's life - he/she knows that he/she can rely on God and that persisting/standing for/to God helps them and is the most important thing to them. Similar arguments could be used if we substitute in "most right-minded" and similar expressions.
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Salam/Peace, just posting this
https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5cbvQyHcUY
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Salaam
Very interesting. Appreciate this Sardar
Haven't spoken to any of you in a while, hope all is well
Thank you dear brother. I am well. In fact it's my birthday
