Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
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Salam KDC,
That is interesting work you refer to...The Natural Republic book refers to the same hypothesis - that Mekka of the Quran is Petra while Jerusalem is Bakka.
Salam Khan,
By reading the verses on the subject, you will find that the Masjid Haram and the Bayt are intwined.
That the call to pilgrimage was made to "the people" by Abraham does not negate that a new law/restriction was placed by God - after a specific year - that the polytheists are not to be welcomed there. The Quran brings laws that override/change the laws of Abraham or Moses or Jesus.
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Salam,
I agree with your post. Jerusalem is indeed the Qibla.
Salaam, Layth,
The qiblah for whom, if you don't mind clarifying?
Can you tell me what Temple was destroyed twice for the disobedience of the Bani Israel? Surah 174-7,1760
Destroyed once by the Babylonian armies of Nebuchadnezzar, with the exile of the Bani Israel to Babylon.
After reconstruction by Cyrus the Persian and Darius I, it was destroyed again in 70 AD by the Roman army of Titus.With the Temple in Jerusalem not only named in the Quran (Surah 171) but also given clear description of its destruction (Surah 174-7,1760), who is Jerusalem qiblah for?
What is the qiblah of the Bani Israel? I Kings 822-44
"...Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built! Regard your servant's prayer and his plea, O Lord my God, heeding the cry and the prayer that your servant prays to you today... Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place... When heaven is shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against you, and then they pray towards this place, confess your name, and turn from their sin..." I Kings 822-44
Jerusalem.
We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144,149,150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144,147,149The Quran is a Book complete; there is no doubt in it. Allah does not err, nor does He forget. Surah 482, 2052
"In their stories is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it is not a tale forged, but a confirmation of what is before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe." Surah 12111
As Allah does not change His Sunnah, if Muhammad (pbuh) was exiled from Mecca, then the city of Mecca would have been destroyed. Do you disagree?
If you do disagree, could you please provide proof to support why you disagree?I look forward to your response, Layth.
Syncretism Rituals of Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jY_6d7KBewProof Midian
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4RHRu3VWJgPeace.
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Salam Raging,
The qiblah for whom, if you don't mind clarifying?
For the Muslims/Submitters.
Can you tell me what Temple was destroyed twice for the disobedience of the Bani Israel? Surah 174-7,1760
No temple was destroyed in the Quran (you are thinking of Jewish history here - not the Quran).
Destroyed once by the Babylonian armies of Nebuchadnezzar, with the exile of the Bani Israel to Babylon.
After reconstruction by Cyrus the Persian and Darius I, it was destroyed again in 70 AD by the Roman army of Titus.With the Temple in Jerusalem not only named in the Quran (Surah 171) but also given clear description of its destruction (Surah 174-7,1760), who is Jerusalem qiblah for?
The Jews don't even know where they were during the exile. There are various works that link them to the land of Sheba (southern Arabia) as being the location for Solomon and the home of the Jews (they refused to enter the holy land after Egypt, so they were exiled for 40 years during which they settled in southern Arabia).
What is the qiblah of the Bani Israel? I Kings 822-44
"...Even heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, much less this house that I have built! Regard your servant's prayer and his plea, O Lord my God, heeding the cry and the prayer that your servant prays to you today... Hear the plea of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place... When heaven is shut up and there is no rain because they have sinned against you, and then they pray towards this place, confess your name, and turn from their sin..." I Kings 822-44
Jerusalem.
So it should be. But they do not hold the Temple Mount to be their Qibla, rather the wailing wall which is a Roman construct.
We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144,149,150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144,147,149The Quran is a Book complete; there is no doubt in it. Allah does not err, nor does He forget. Surah 482, 2052
"In their stories is surely a lesson to men possessed of minds; it is not a tale forged, but a confirmation of what is before it, and a distinguishing of every thing, and a guidance, and a mercy to a people who believe." Surah 12111
As Allah does not change His Sunnah, if Muhammad (pbuh) was exiled from Mecca, then the city of Mecca would have been destroyed. Do you disagree?
If you do disagree, could you please provide proof to support why you disagree?Interesting you refer to 3 times because that is the number of Salat times in the Quran.
Mohammed was exiled from his home - but why do you assume Mecca Arabia was that place? The archeology of Petra makes it the closest candidate for being the true Mecca mentioned in the Quran.
Regards,
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Salam Raging,
For the Muslims/Submitters.
In this I disagree.
We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144,149,150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144,147,149
I am not of the doubters. Masjid Al-Haram is my qiblah.No temple was destroyed in the Quran (you are thinking of Jewish history here - not the Quran).
The Quran disagrees, Layth.
"'If you do good, it is your own souls you do good to, and if you do evil it is to them likewise.' Then, when the promise of the second came to pass, We sent against you Our servants to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple, as they entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly that which they ascended to." Surah 177
The Jews don't even know where they were during the exile.
The Torah/Tanakh not only discusses their exile and time with Nebuchadnezzar (Lamentations, Daniel, Ezra), but also their liberation by Cyrus the Persian (Isaiah, Ezra), who started reconstruction of the Temple, which was completed by Darius I.
Your claim the Yahud don't know where they were is not founded on what they teach from the Torah/Tanakh that they still possess. (Torah/Tanakh is the Old Testament.)There are various works that link them to the land of Sheba (southern Arabia) as being the location for Solomon and the home of the Jews (they refused to enter the holy land after Egypt, so they were exiled for 40 years during which they settled in southern Arabia).
So you admit to upholding teachings outside of the Quran and the previous Books to make your claims.
I understand the search for knowledge and understanding, but the Quran confirms the Truth in previous Books, not vice-versa. Allah does not make mistakes, nor does He forget. Surah 482, 2052"And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Book 'You shall do corruption in the earth twice, and you shall ascend exceeding high.'
So, when the promise of the first of these came to pass, We sent against you servants of Ours, men of great might, and they went through the habitations, and it was a promise performed.
Then We gave back to you the turn to prevail over them, and We succoured you with wealth and children, and We made you a greater host.
'If you do good, it is your own souls you do good to, and if you do evil it is to them likewise.' Then, when the promise of the second came to pass, We sent against you Our servants to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple, as they entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly that which they ascended to." Surah 174-7So it should be. But they do not hold the Temple Mount to be their Qibla, rather the wailing wall which is a Roman construct.
The Quran makes it clear the precincts are what is blessed, not a construction within it. Surah 171
"Glory be to Him, who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque (almasjidi alharami) to the Further Mosque (almasjidi al-aqsa) the precincts of which We have blessed, that We might show him some of Our signs. He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing." Surah 171
The Dome of the Rock is of Byzantine design, as proven by the heterogeneous character of its elements. It was a pagan temple of Zeus, created at the command of Hadrian after the first Jewish revolt.
Regardless of what the Yahud call their qiblah, I will not be asked what they believe or do. I will only be asked what I believe and do.Interesting you refer to 3 times because that is the number of Salat times in the Quran.
So you believe.
Mohammed was exiled from his home - but why do you assume Mecca Arabia was that place? The archeology of Petra makes it the closest candidate for being the true Mecca mentioned in the Quran.
You either have not done your research into what I believe and/or you attempt a strawman.
Had Muhammad (pbuh) been exiled from Mecca, Mecca would have been destroyed by Allah for their disbelief. Allah does not change His Sunnah.
Throughout the Pilgrimage/Hajj forum I have not said Muhammad (pbuh) was exiled from Mecca, but from Midian, in the lands of Nabatea.Proof Midian
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4RHRu3VWJgCan you show where Midian is located?
I am not a guide, nor a guardian for anyone. You are welcome to believe whatever you want.
My obligation is only to remind. To you are your deeds and to me are mine. In the End, we will be told in what we differ, and we will know who is rightly guided, and who is not. )Peace.
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i am so confused now...
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i am so confused now...
It?s not confusing at all. It's just a matter of simple deduction and common sense.
Question Where did Muhammad live?
Answer He lived near Sodom and Gomorrah
Proof Sura 37133-138
And Lot was one of the messengers. When We saved him and all his family. Except an old woman who remained. Then, We destroyed the rest. You pass by their ruins in the morning; In the night.Do you not understand?Where is Sodom and Gomorrah?
Most scholars and biblical sources believe it is near the Dead Sea. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_GomorrahWhich city was active near the Dead Sea during Muhammad?s life time?
Answer The city of Petra.Proof that Petra was the city.
Read this 28 page summary of the book ?Quranic Geography by Dan Gibson? It shows proof that the Mecca of today was not the Mecca in which Muhammad lived. The summary also uses Islamic sources and historical evidence to prove his point.
---- www.searchformecca.com/Mecca Question.pdf Please take the time to read it. 28 pgs is not much.What gods did the people of Petra worship?
? Dushara was the main male god accompanied by his female trinity Al-?Uzz?, Allat and Mant ?
--- http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra
Sura 5319-20
Have you considered Allaat and Al-Uzzah?
And Manaat, the third one?What city was the site of Pilgrimage for hundreds of years for the Jews and Christians?
Answer Jerusalem. For those of you who have read the Bible you would know that Jerusalem was the original Qibla and was the original site of Pilgrimage for the Jews for hundreds of yearsWhere is the Restricted Temple ( The site of pilgrimage)?
Sura 396-97 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.Check out this Map http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/jerusalem_93.jpg
As you can see it is Bakka. Bakka is a place in Jerusalem.Note Bekka is NOT Mecca. They do rhyme but they are two different places!!!!
Questions to ask yourself
(1) Why isn?t there any historical evidence to prove that Mecca was a major site of Pilgrimage during the time when Muhammad was alive?(2) If Mecca was so important why didn?t any of the Prophets visit it for Pilgrimage?
(3) Why did the earliest Mosques(during Muhammad?s Time) face Jerusalem?
(4) Why did some of the Muslim leaders during the early years after Muhammad?s death uncertain about the Qibla? Read www.searchformecca.com/Mecca Question.pdf
A Question for those who follow the Quran Alone
(1) If the so called ?Muslims? were wrong about almost everything in Islam wouldn?t it be intelligent to question if they got the right Qibla too? For those of you who truly believe and are serious about your religion ask yourself these questions and ask God for guidance. Also remember that a little more reading never hurts anyone.
peace
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Question Where did Muhammad live?
Answer He lived near Sodom and Gomorrah
Proof Sura 37133-138
And Lot was one of the messengers. When We saved him and all his family. Except an old woman who remained. Then, We destroyed the rest. You pass by their ruins in the morning; In the night.Do you not understand?Salaam,
This is a genuine question, not sarcastic how do we know Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, lived near Sodom and Gomorrah and didn't just happen to be camped in that region during the revelation of sura 37?
Thanks
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It?s not confusing at all. It's just a matter of simple deduction and common sense.
Question Where did Muhammad live?
Answer He lived near Sodom and Gomorrah
Proof Sura 37133-138
And Lot was one of the messengers. When We saved him and all his family. Except an old woman who remained. Then, We destroyed the rest. You pass by their ruins in the morning; In the night.Do you not understand?Where is Sodom and Gomorrah?
Most scholars and biblical sources believe it is near the Dead Sea. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_GomorrahWhich city was active near the Dead Sea during Muhammad?s life time?
Answer The city of Petra.Proof that Petra was the city.
Read this 28 page summary of the book ?Quranic Geography by Dan Gibson? It shows proof that the Mecca of today was not the Mecca in which Muhammad lived. The summary also uses Islamic sources and historical evidence to prove his point.
---- www.searchformecca.com/Mecca Question.pdf Please take the time to read it. 28 pgs is not much.You do not bring proof from the Quran?
Why would I follow a man who is not a Prophet when the description of all things is given in the Quran?What gods did the people of Petra worship?
? Dushara was the main male god accompanied by his female trinity Al-?Uzz?, Allat and Mant ?
--- http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petra
Sura 5319-20
Have you considered Allaat and Al-Uzzah?
And Manaat, the third one?What city was the site of Pilgrimage for hundreds of years for the Jews and Christians?
Answer Jerusalem. For those of you who have read the Bible you would know that Jerusalem was the original Qibla and was the original site of Pilgrimage for the Jews for hundreds of years.Jerusalem is the qiblah for the Yahud, Nazarene and Sabine.
Muhammad (pbuh) is not a Yahud nor a Nazarene nor a Sabine. Neither was Abraham (pbuh).
Are you saying the qiblah of the People of the Book is the qiblah of Muslims?
Do you have proof from the Quran Muhammad faced a qiblah prior to Masjid Al-Haram?Where is the Restricted Temple ( The site of pilgrimage)?
Sura 396-97 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.We are told Bacca, a holy place, contains the dwelling (maqami) of Abraham. Surah 396-97
Abraham (pbuh) asked Allah to bless the city where the House (bayt) was, and to raise up a Messenger from his lineage. Surah 2127-129
According to the Quran, the location of the place of Abraham (pbuh) is a sign for mankind. Surah 396-97
Abraham's wife lived there as well. Surah 1173The Valley of Baca is spoken of as well in Psalm 841-12
"Blessed are those whose strength is in you,
in whose heart are the highways to Zion.
As they go through the Valley of Baca
they make it a place of springs;
the early rain also covers it with pools.
They go from strength to strength;
each one appears before God in Zion.
LORD God of hosts, hear my prayer;
give ear, O God of Jacob!" Psalm 845-8Baca (Hebrew 'emeq habakka') Psalm 841-12, Surah 396
I am told this ?Valley of Baca? is not the same spoken of in the Quran. After all, Zion is in Jerusalem, right? Yet the Psalms are revealed to David (pbuh), prior to the Temple being built by Solomon (pbuh). There was no Temple in Jerusalem at this time.
We know the Temple in Jerusalem is not the station of Abraham, as Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Farthest Mosque found in Jerusalem, is named in the Quran. Surah 171
Allah gives description of this Temple and its destruction ? twice ? in the Quran. It is the Temple of the Children of Israel. Surah 174-7,1760
This Temple was created by Solomon (pbuh) and is the qiblah of the Bani Israel and the Yahudians.Solomon's qiblah I Kings 822-44
People say there is no indication of Pilgrimage in the Bible, yet the Quran shows Moses (pbuh) designated a specific day to contend with the Magi of Pharaoh.
"'Your tryst shall be upon the Day of the Ornament (yawmu alzzeenati). Let the people be mustered at the high noon.'" Surah 2059
If it is in the Quran, which verifies the previous Books, we will find some indication of this in the previous Books.
Moses (pbuh) asked Pharaoh to take his people 3 days into the wilderness to give thanks to Allah, PRIOR to their leaving Egypt, before given their rites of devotion Hag Sukkot, Hag ha-Mazzot, and Hag Shabu'ot?
Hajj/Hag Ha-Sukkot Exo. 109, Exo. 51, Exo. 318, Exo. 134, Exo. 2314-17, Exo 3422-24, Deut 1613-16, Neh. 89-12, Neh. 21, Lev. 239-21, Est. 89
"And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness." Exo. 51
"And Moses said, We will go with our young and with our old, with our sons and with our daughters, with our flocks and with our herds will we go; for we must hold a feast unto the LORD." Exo. 109Allah is clear He gave each nation acts of devotion (shaAAa-iri) Surah 52, 2232, 2234, 2236, 2267
Yahudians follow their rites given by Allah through Moses and Aaron (pbut).The Hebrews designated a festival by the word "ag" (the Arabic "ajj", originally implying a choragic rhythmic procession around the shrine of an idol or an altar (see Wellhausen, "Skizzen und Vorarbeiten," 3106); but later, without specific reference to this usage, connoting a day or season of joy ("ag" and "simah" are correlatives; comp. Amos 710; Deut.1614). "Hag" denotes more specifically the three agricultural festivals (Ex. 2314), or the Festival of Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles (Lev. 236, Lev. 2334), or the latter only (Judges 2119; Eze. 1125; II Chron. 53; II Chr. 78-9). (Jewish Encyclopedia)
?You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. As I commanded you, you shall eat unleavened bread for seven days at the appointed time in the month of Abib, for in it you came out of Egypt. None shall appear before me empty-handed.? Exo. 2315
??e-a hammaw ti?mr ?i?a ym?m t?al maw ka??er i??i lmw? e? h?? k?-w y? mimmiryim wl?-yr?? fnay r?qm? Exo 2315
?You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the first fruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. You shall keep the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor.? Exo. 2316
?wa haqq?r bik?r? ma?ey ??er tizra? baeh wa h?sif b? ha??n? b?sp ?e-ma?ey min-haeh? Exo. 2316
?You shall observe the Feast of Weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the Feast of Ingathering at the year?s end.? Exo. 3422
?wa ?u? ta?eh l bik?r? q?r i?m wa h?s?f tq?fa ha??n?? Exo. 3422
Moses and Aaron (pbut) were told to turn their homes in Egypt into places of devotion (qiblatan) Surah 1087
Prior to their acts revealed unto them through Moses and Aaron (pbut), they performed a different act of devotion.There is reference to the House of Allah in the Bible, even though the polytheists are adverse to admitting it..
Isaiah 11-18 speaks of the Yahudians, the destruction of their lands and homes, and their festivals while in exile."Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.
And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city." Isa. 17This was during the exile of the Yahudians after the first destruction of the Temple, and prior to the rebuilding by Cyrus the Persian.
"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them." Isa. 111-14With the Temple destroyed, where would the Bani Israel go for their ?solemn meeting?
What courts of Allah were ?trampled? in new moon feasts when the Temple was destroyed by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar?Cyrus the Persian is named Messiah in Isaiah 451 ? liberator of the Yahud during their captivity in Babylon. He decreed the reconstruction of the Temple. His successor Darius I, known as Dhul-Qarnain in the Quran, is credited with creation of the wall of Derbent in the Caucasus Mountains and is written in the Bible to have completed construction of the Temple in Jerusalem.
Yet in the Bible we see the ?trampling of courts? discussed.
The Jewish Encyclopedia discusses circambulation
"Extension of Sukkot.
The seventh day of the festival is distinguished as the "great Hosha'na" (the Gospel accounts of Jesus' entry on Palm Sunday seem to have confused this with Pesaḥ, or "the day of the palm-and willow-branches" (Suk. 42-45). Carrying in their hands branches at least eleven feet long, the celebrants make seven circuits around the desk, chanting "Hosha'na" (Ps. cxviii. 25), and then beat the floor with the branches. This custom, said to be of Mosaic origin, is undoubtedly an adaptation of a Babylonian rite (Yer. 'Ab. Zarah iv.)."Check out this Map http//free-minds.org/sites/default/files/jerusalem_93.jpg
As you can see it is Bakka. Bakka is a place in Jerusalem.Note Bekka is NOT Mecca. They do rhyme but they are two different places!!!!
If Allah revealed in the Quran that Bekka and Mecca are the same place - based on their description - but a man writes they are different, who would you believe and uphold as Truth?
Allah's revelation or the writing of man?
"In what discourse would you believe after this?"
Questions to ask yourself
(1) Why isn?t there any historical evidence to prove that Mecca was a major site of Pilgrimage during the time when Muhammad was alive?Look to the Bible for this evidence, as shown above.
(2) If Mecca was so important why didn?t any of the Prophets visit it for Pilgrimage?
Allah is clear He gave each nation acts of devotion (shaAAa-iri) Surah 52, 2232, 2234, 2236, 2267
Yahudians follow their rites given by Allah through Moses and Aaron (pbut).As for the previous Prophets (pbut) not visiting it, the previous Books refute this claim, as does the Shrine of the Nazarene - the Holy Monument.
(3) Why did the earliest Mosques(during Muhammad?s Time) face Jerusalem?
Again, the qiblah is a command to show whose teachings you follow. Those who followed the teachings of Moses and Aaron (pbut) had their homes as qiblah. Those who followed Solomon (pbuh) had the Temple as qiblah.
"Thus We appointed you a midmost nation that you might be witnesses to the people, and that the Messenger might be a witness to you; and We did not appoint the direction thou wast facing, except that We might know who followed the Messenger from him who turned on his heels -- though it were a grave thing save for those whom God has guided; but God would never leave your faith to waste - truly, God is All-gentle with the people, All-compassionate." Surah 2143
Allah even makes clear the qiblah is a difficult test.
(4) Why did some of the Muslim leaders during the early years after Muhammad?s death uncertain about the Qibla? Read www.searchformecca.com/Mecca Question.pdf
See Surah 2143. This is a difficult test, except for those guided.
A Question for those who follow the Quran Alone
(1) If the so called ?Muslims? were wrong about almost everything in Islam wouldn?t it be intelligent to question if they got the right Qibla too? For those of you who truly believe and are serious about your religion ask yourself these questions and ask God for guidance. Also remember that a little more reading never hurts anyone.
The sin is in not confirming the Truth. Surah 7531-32, 1736, 496
?And follow not that of which thou has no knowledge. Surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, of all of these it will be asked.? Surah 1736That is why we have iman - confirmed faith. We do not believe on blind faith, but follow only what we have confirmed.
In order for the Islamists to feed the populace the lie, they had to wrap it up in Truth. They may have gotten almost everything wrong, but they had to keep some Truth in order for it to be palatable.
I'm not here to guide anyone; you are welcome to face whatever qiblah you desire. To you are your deeds, to me are mine. )
I am showing why I cannot believe as you believe, based on the revelation of the Quran, using the Quran to verify the Truth in the previous Books.
My qiblah is not in Jerusalem. My qiblah is in Mecca. My qiblah surrounds the Kaaba, where our annual sacrifices are to be taken. Masjid Al-Haram is my qiblah.
Turn to Allah and ask Him to explain. He is Guide, Friend to the believers.
Peace.
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Good question sdevante. My answer is I can?t prove 100% that he lived in Petra. However archeology evidence shows the God Dushara and his female trinity that are mentioned in the Quran (Al-?Uzz?, Allat and Mant ) is exclusive only to the city of Petra in the Arabian Peninsular. Check out the summary of the book ?Quranic Geography by Dan Gibson? www.searchformecca.com/Mecca Question.pdf
@raginggaijin I have already answered your question in the previous post. History is what is written. It is naive to believe that all historical records are accurate. All we can do is compare our histories and come up with the best answer to historical questions. So far to my knowledge there is more stronger proof that Jerusalem is the correct city of Pilgrimage than Mecca. The geography of Mecca mentioned in the hadiths and Islamic writings DO NOT portray the Mecca in Saudi Arabia. It fits the city of Petra. Check out the summary of the book ?Quranic Geography by Dan Gibson? Also you can purchase the book to get a better understanding of what I?m talking about. www.searchformecca.com/Mecca Question.pdf
Peace,
Kevin D.Cooper peace
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@raginggaijin I have already answered your question in the previous post. History is what is written. It is naive to believe that all historical records are accurate. All we can do is compare our histories and come up with the best answer to historical questions. So far to my knowledge there is more stronger proof that Jerusalem is the correct city of Pilgrimage than Mecca.
No worries. I have provided proof from the Quran and previous Books that Mecca is the correct city of Pilgrimage. Especially when the Temple was not built until the time of Solomon (pbuh). To say Jerusalem was the place of pilgrimage prior to Solomon is an anachronism.
The geography of Mecca mentioned in the hadiths and Islamic writings DO NOT portray the Mecca in Saudi Arabia.
I do not study hadith or Islamic writings. These writings were far after the time of Muhammad (pbuh), and written by Persians seeking to infiltrate.
It fits the city of Petra.
You have a problem then. Allah does not change His Sunnah. He destroys the cities who reject His Message.
There was no fighting in the city of Mecca; it was not destroyed.
"It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, in the hollow of Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do.
They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Holy Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account (that God may admit into His mercy whom He will), had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement." Surah 4824-25Yet the place Muhammad (pbuh) was exiled from was destroyed.
"It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution." Surah 592-4I think you misunderstand me. I do not believe Muhammad was exiled from Mecca. On the contrary, I do believe he was exiled from Midian, in the Byzantine territory of Nabatean Petra. There is proof of this in the Quran.
Proof Midian
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4RHRu3VWJgThe Prophet Muhammad and the believers were given victory over the disbelievers, not only in the city from whence they were expelled but also Medina and Mecca.
Check out the summary of the book ?Quranic Geography by Dan Gibson? Also you can purchase the book to get a better understanding of what I?m talking about. www.searchformecca.com/Mecca Question.pdf
Why do I need a book from a man who is not a Prophet when the Quran has an explanation for all things?
If you believe in something, you personally should be able to defend it by bringing proof to support why you believe what you believe. That is what Allah tells us to do in the Quran.
Again, you are welcome to believe whatever you desire. I have brought proof to show why I cannot believe as you believe.
My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram.
Peace.
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Salam Sdevante,
This is a genuine question, not sarcastic how do we know Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, lived near Sodom and Gomorrah and didn't just happen to be camped in that region during the revelation of sura 37?
I think you will appreciate the points that have been raised if you look more into the history of Petra...
- The city is associated as being near Soddom & Gommorah (links with Quran's description for Mohammed's people).
- The city is the center for the triple gods - Laat, Uzza, Manaat (links with Quran)
- The city is the home of the Arabic language (links with Quran's emphasis on Arabic)
- The city is near a main road for trade routes (links with Quran's description of trade and of Soddom's location).
- The city is native to "people of the book" (links with Quran's interaction with these groups).
Now, if you move on to Jerusalem, you get direct correlation with the pilgrimage verses
- Site known to all Abrahamic faiths (links with Quran telling us that Abraham called for pilgrimage).
- Site houses the Temple Mount and the Dome of the Rock - first Qibla according to archeological evidence of the 2 qibla mosque.
- Rock inside the Dome being associated with Abraham (links with the Quran description of the "maqam" being inside the shrine).
- Name "bakka" found in historic documents (links with Quran's name for the temple area).
- Area asscoiated with olives and figs (links with Quran's description of the holy land).
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Now, if you move on to Jerusalem, you get direct correlation with the pilgrimage verses
- Site known to all Abrahamic faiths (links with Quran telling us that Abraham called for pilgrimage).
Abraham (pbuh) was neither a Yahud nor Nazarene.
"No; Abraham in truth was not a Jew, neither a Christian; but he was a Muslim and one pure of faith; certainly he was never of the idolaters." Surah 367
"And they say, 'Be Jews or Christians and you shall be guided.' Say thou 'Nay, rather the creed of Abraham, a man of pure faith; he was no idolater." Surah 2135Abraham built the House with Ishmael (pbuh). This was a structure that stood prior to the revelation given to the Prophets Moses, Aaron, and Isa (pbut).
- Site houses the Temple Mount and the Dome of the Rock - first Qibla according to archeological evidence of the 2 qibla mosque.
Temple Mount was adorned during the reign of Solomon (pbuh), far after the time of Abraham. Even the Ark of the Covenant is written in the previous Books to be brought to Jerusalem only later in David's life.
The Dome of the Rock was created after 70 AD, after the destruction of the Temple by the Romans. This structure was made by Hadrian as a place of worship to the Roman pagan god Jupiter, aka Zeus adopted from the pagan Greeks. It was later refurbished to suit the desires of those who came after, much as the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was refitted to serve as a Christian church after it was built to serve the pagan Romans to worship Venus, aka Aphrodite.- Rock inside the Dome being associated with Abraham (links with the Quran description of the "maqam" being inside the shrine).
Nowhere in the Quran does it designate ?maqami? as a fixed position like a rock or a pair of feet indented in the ground, but as a sphere of duty, a place of importance established for service to Allah.
?Say 'O my people, act according to your station (makanatikum); I am acting. And assuredly you will know who shall possess the Abode Ultimate. Surely the evildoers will not prosper.'? Surah 6135
?and We will surely make you to dwell in the land after them -- that, for him who fears My station (maqamee) and fears My threat.'? Surah 1414
?And as for the night, keep vigil a part of it, as a work of supererogation for thee; it may be that thy Lord will raise thee up to a laudable station (maqaman).? Surah 1779- Name "bakka" found in historic documents (links with Quran's name for the temple area).
The Quran states (bakkata) Surah 396
The previous Books state (habakka) Psalm 841-12
This is prior to the construction of any Temple, as David (pbuh) is the Prophet speaking in these verses. It is an anachronism to say there was a Temple in Jerusalem preceding Solomon (pbuh).
The Bani Israel migrated for 40 years prior to entering Jerusalem. How could there be pilgrimage to Jerusalem when the Bani Israel could not enter there, much less settle there?"O my people, enter the Holy Land which God has prescribed for you, and turn not back in your traces, to turn about losers.'
They said, 'Moses, there are people in it very arrogant; we will not enter it until they depart from it; if they depart from it then we will enter.'
Said two men of those that feared God whom God had blessed, 'Enter against them the gate! When you enter it, you will be victors. Put you all your trust in God, if you are believers.'
They said, 'Moses, we will never enter it so long as they are in it. Go forth, thou and thy Lord, and do battle; we will be sitting here.'
He said, 'O my Lord, I rule no one except myself and my brother. So do Thou divide between us and the people of the ungodly.'
Said He, 'Then it shall be forbidden them for forty years, while they are wandering in the earth; so grieve not for the people of the ungodly.'" Surah 521-26- Area asscoiated with olives and figs (links with Quran's description of the holy land).
There was no sown land by the Holy House.
"Our Lord, I have made some of my seed to dwell in a valley where is no sown land by Thy Holy House; Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful." Surah 1437
The Quran contains a description for all things.
I cannot believe as you believe. I am not a Jew nor a Christian. I am a Muslim, and I follow only what Allah revealed.
"Follow what has been sent down to you from your Lord, and follow no friends other than He; little do you remember." Surah 73
My qiblah is in Mecca. My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram.
Thank you for our discussion. This has increased my iman.
All praise is due to Allah, Lord of all beings.
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.Peace.
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Peace Raging
To say Jerusalem was the place of pilgrimage prior to Solomon is an anachronism.
By the time Abraham and his son raised the foundation with the house the house was already existing. He invited mankind for the pilgrimage afterwards. Solomon was much after Abraham. So why would it be a anachronism to say that Jerusalem was the place of pilgrimage prior to Solomon.
The Quran does not say Qibla is the direction to face during Salat. In fact what the verses indicate is quite the contrary, since you are expected stand still during salat, the verses you quoted commands to come towards the masjidul Haram. The meaning of Qibla is not understood by us and we go by the established meaning which is " the point to face during salat".
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Dear Raging,
I understand that some preconceptions are more difficult to let go than others...Even when the Qibla was shifted as a test for the Muslims, many found it very difficult to let go of the association they had made with a specific location and therefore failed the test.
God encompasses everything, therefore no matter if we turn to the east or the west, we will find the face of God.
However, if God tells us to unite on a specific site, then we can only "hear & obey".
As Muslims our Qibla has been designated to the "Masjid AlHaram/Restricted Temple" and the location of our pilgrimage is to "Bakka".
Tell me you are not sure where these locations are and I can accept that premise...Tell me that "Mecca" is your Qibla and pilgrimage, and I will say you are following what God has never authorized.
Regards,
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Peace Layth,
Thanks for clarifying.
Yes, as I recall, you did think 3, see here
reply 51 here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8014.msg29799#msg29799 - 2004
then 2 times http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12309.30 - 2006And now its back to 3. Fair enough. However I do recall discussing the 3 timing with you and as far as I recall you were rethinking it due to the evening overlap, which I will explain below
In the time-ranges you give, the "wusta salat" would begin at noon and end at early night, and the "isha salat" would begin at this point and end at night (I assume this is what you mean, and are using 1778 to deduce this). This would make it one continuous time-period from noon till night. Is this your view?
Also you will have to clarify what you mean by "evening" for the isha salat, otherwise it may not make sense.
There are many problems with 3 timing theory, but the above is somewhat insurmountable in my view.
Let me know your thoughts.
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Peace Layth
Interesting you refer to 3 times because that is the number of Salat times in the Quran.
A sunni mufti debating with me once mentioned salawaat ( plural of salat) is mentioned five times in the Quran which is another indicator that the 5 time salat theory is correct. I could care less to check the number of salawaats in the quran.
Anyone can manipulate numbers to arrive at the conclusion they want. The verses on qibla or masjid ul haram have no single mention of salat or not even a vague reference to it. Its arbitrary from you to use the number of times some unrelated verses were used in the Quran to justify the 3 times salat.
Also what about the additional night salat mentioned in 1779.
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Peace Raging
By the time Abraham and his son raised the foundation with the house the house was already existing. He invited mankind for the pilgrimage afterwards. Solomon was much after Abraham. So why would it be a anachronism to say that Jerusalem was the place of pilgrimage prior to Solomon.
It is an anachronism because no structure existed in Jerusalem until the time of Solomon (pbuh). It is an anachronism because for 40 years the Bani Israel were not allowed to enter the lands containing Jerusalem, and they used their mobile Tabernacle for their sacrifices. Exo. 401-38
There wasn't an established place of service in Jerusalem until the time of Solomon (pbuh).The Quran does not say Qibla is the direction to face during Salat. In fact what the verses indicate is quite the contrary, since you are expected stand still during salat, the verses you quoted commands to come towards the masjidul Haram. The meaning of Qibla is not understood by us and we go by the established meaning which is " the point to face during salat".
The Quran does speak of our facing in our masjids during prayer.
?Say 'My Lord has commanded justice. Set your faces (wujoohakum) in every place of worship (masjidin) and call (waodAAoohu) on Him, making your religion (alddeena) sincerely His. As He originated you so you will return;? Surah 729You do know what dua is, yes?
How I pray is detailed in the video below, using proof from the Quran
Proof Prayer
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqsBaSlyWY4Salat is a time of study and supplication, where we recite the Quran and glorify our Creator ? remembering Him, giving thanks for what He provides, and asking for His protection so we uphold the covenant we took when became believers; Muslims with faith in their heart.
What we do in Masjid Al-Haram is another chestnut altogether, but I have given my points here
Syncretism Rituals of Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jY_6d7KBewProof Qiblah
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhq1BDBG3ZsProof Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=i21uxpnjyXgDear Raging,
I understand that some preconceptions are more difficult to let go than others...Even when the Qibla was shifted as a test for the Muslims, many found it very difficult to let go of the association they had made with a specific location and therefore failed the test.
I need proof before I will believe. I was guided from the teachings of Trinitarianism by upholding only what Allah revealed in His previous Books. When guided to the Quran, the revelation tells us to bring our proof time and again, and to not follow what we do not know. I ask Allah alone for guidance and explanation. After being misled by man for so long, I am not so easily swayed from the Truth by tawdry speech of man. P
Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238How can I not believe when I stand upon a clear sign from Allah?
You are unable to refute what is given, and you yourself continue to uphold the belief that the Temple - destroyed twice and laying in ruin to this day - is the site of Masjid Al-Haram, when it is named in Surah 171 as Masjid Al-Aqsa. A Temple that was not standing until the time of Solomon (pbuh). You uphold belief in a pagan temple that stands within the ruins to be your qiblah. All of which lay within the area of daily armed conflict and violence to this day. That is not counting that during its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.God encompasses everything, therefore no matter if we turn to the east or the west, we will find the face of God.
I agree. It is what we do that matters, not what direction we turn to. We are commanded to be forward in good deeds, spending out of what Allah provides us, and upholding the covenant we took. Surah 2177
Allah tells us He will not let our faith go to waste. Surah 2143
Take comfort in that. )However, if God tells us to unite on a specific site, then we can only "hear & obey".
As Muslims our Qibla has been designated to the "Masjid AlHaram/Restricted Temple" and the location of our pilgrimage is to "Bakka".
I agree. And as shown using the Quran, this place is in a valley in Mecca.
Tell me you are not sure where these locations are and I can accept that premise...Tell me that "Mecca" is your Qibla and pilgrimage, and I will say you are following what God has never authorized.
There is only one between us who is unsure, Layth, and it is not me. P
I have brought proof from the Quran and using the Quran to verify the previous Books, proof from them as well, to show why I believe what I believe. Proof which refutes the position you uphold about Jerusalem. Proof you are unable to respond to.To you are your deeds and to me are mine, and in the End we will know who is rightly guided and who was led astray by teachings of men.
Allah commands us to bring proof. I can show using the Quran and His previous Books why I believe what I believe.
I am not a Yahudian. I do not face the Temple in Jerusalem, as they are commanded in their Books. I Kings 822-44, Dan. 610
I am not a Christian. I do not face Jerusalem, as the Messiah (pbuh) is reported in what remains of the Gospel.My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram, the building that surrounds the Kaaba in Mecca.
Such is the description in the Quran. )
Bring your proof. Explanation is not proof.
Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238Peace.
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Brother raginggaijin I sympathize with you and I admire your enthusiasm since you and I both came from Christian backgrounds. However I implore you to reconsider your position. The Mosque mentioned in Sura 171 as being the most distant temple is NOT Jerusalem ( your videos have inaccuracies ) . The Quran did NOT SAY SO. Read the Arabic yourself. Till you can show me and others where it says that the Mosque in Jerusalem is ?almasjidi al-aqsa? then you are only following conjecture.
Also the place of pilgrimage is at Bakka as the Quran says. Not Mecca!
396-97 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.You can?t say that Mecca is Bakka there are both two different places! The city of Mecca is mentioned only once in the Quran and it was a place that was blocking there donations to the Sacred Masjid. NO WHERE IN THE QURAN DOES IT SAY THAT THE MASJID RESIDED IN MECCA!
You are only following sectarian beliefs which you assume to be correct. Am I not right in saying that you are a bit na?ve . Do you really think that ?the way? was going to be just paved out for you without any sort of studying or verification? Didn?t God say in the Quran not to accept any information unless you verify it for yourself ?(Sura 1736) Have you yourself verified that Mecca is the correct place and not Jerusalem or did you just run with the crowd? Have you studied the history yourself or did you blindly accept what other people said?
Please verify the evidence yourself and you will see that all roads lead to Jerusalem and not Mecca.
Peace,
Kevin D.Cooper peace
