Is Jerusalem the Qibla?

[warner]

Peace Layth

Interesting you refer to 3 times because that is the number of Salat times in the Quran.

A sunni mufti debating with me once mentioned salawaat ( plural of salat) is mentioned five times in the Quran which is another indicator that the 5 time salat theory is correct. I could care less to check the number of salawaats in the quran.

Anyone can manipulate numbers to arrive at the conclusion they want. The verses on qibla or masjid ul haram have no single mention of salat or not even a vague reference to it. Its arbitrary from you to use the number of times some unrelated verses were used in the Quran to justify the 3 times salat.

Also what about the additional night salat mentioned in 1779.

[raginggaijin]

Peace Raging

By the time Abraham and his son raised the foundation with the house the house was already existing. He invited mankind for the pilgrimage afterwards. Solomon was much after Abraham. So why would it be a anachronism to say that Jerusalem was the place of pilgrimage prior to Solomon.

It is an anachronism because no structure existed in Jerusalem until the time of Solomon (pbuh). It is an anachronism because for 40 years the Bani Israel were not allowed to enter the lands containing Jerusalem, and they used their mobile Tabernacle for their sacrifices. Exo. 401-38
There wasn't an established place of service in Jerusalem until the time of Solomon (pbuh).

The Quran does not say Qibla is the direction to face during Salat. In fact what the verses indicate is quite the contrary, since you are expected stand still during salat, the verses you quoted commands to come towards the masjidul Haram. The meaning of Qibla is not understood by us and we go by the established meaning which is " the point to face during salat".

The Quran does speak of our facing in our masjids during prayer.
?Say 'My Lord has commanded justice. Set your faces (wujoohakum) in every place of worship (masjidin) and call (waodAAoohu) on Him, making your religion (alddeena) sincerely His. As He originated you so you will return;? Surah 729

You do know what dua is, yes?

How I pray is detailed in the video below, using proof from the Quran

Proof Prayer
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqsBaSlyWY4

Salat is a time of study and supplication, where we recite the Quran and glorify our Creator ? remembering Him, giving thanks for what He provides, and asking for His protection so we uphold the covenant we took when became believers; Muslims with faith in their heart.

What we do in Masjid Al-Haram is another chestnut altogether, but I have given my points here

Syncretism Rituals of Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jY_6d7KBew

Proof Qiblah
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhq1BDBG3Zs

Proof Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=i21uxpnjyXg

Dear Raging,

I understand that some preconceptions are more difficult to let go than others...Even when the Qibla was shifted as a test for the Muslims, many found it very difficult to let go of the association they had made with a specific location and therefore failed the test.

I need proof before I will believe. I was guided from the teachings of Trinitarianism by upholding only what Allah revealed in His previous Books. When guided to the Quran, the revelation tells us to bring our proof time and again, and to not follow what we do not know. I ask Allah alone for guidance and explanation. After being misled by man for so long, I am not so easily swayed from the Truth by tawdry speech of man. P
Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

How can I not believe when I stand upon a clear sign from Allah?
You are unable to refute what is given, and you yourself continue to uphold the belief that the Temple - destroyed twice and laying in ruin to this day - is the site of Masjid Al-Haram, when it is named in Surah 171 as Masjid Al-Aqsa. A Temple that was not standing until the time of Solomon (pbuh). You uphold belief in a pagan temple that stands within the ruins to be your qiblah. All of which lay within the area of daily armed conflict and violence to this day. That is not counting that during its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.

God encompasses everything, therefore no matter if we turn to the east or the west, we will find the face of God.

I agree. It is what we do that matters, not what direction we turn to. We are commanded to be forward in good deeds, spending out of what Allah provides us, and upholding the covenant we took. Surah 2177

Allah tells us He will not let our faith go to waste. Surah 2143
Take comfort in that. )

However, if God tells us to unite on a specific site, then we can only "hear & obey".

As Muslims our Qibla has been designated to the "Masjid AlHaram/Restricted Temple" and the location of our pilgrimage is to "Bakka".

I agree. And as shown using the Quran, this place is in a valley in Mecca.

Tell me you are not sure where these locations are and I can accept that premise...Tell me that "Mecca" is your Qibla and pilgrimage, and I will say you are following what God has never authorized.

There is only one between us who is unsure, Layth, and it is not me. P
I have brought proof from the Quran and using the Quran to verify the previous Books, proof from them as well, to show why I believe what I believe. Proof which refutes the position you uphold about Jerusalem. Proof you are unable to respond to.

To you are your deeds and to me are mine, and in the End we will know who is rightly guided and who was led astray by teachings of men.

Allah commands us to bring proof. I can show using the Quran and His previous Books why I believe what I believe.
I am not a Yahudian. I do not face the Temple in Jerusalem, as they are commanded in their Books. I Kings 822-44, Dan. 610
I am not a Christian. I do not face Jerusalem, as the Messiah (pbuh) is reported in what remains of the Gospel.

My qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram, the building that surrounds the Kaaba in Mecca.

Such is the description in the Quran. )
Bring your proof. Explanation is not proof.
Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

Peace.

[KDC501]

Brother raginggaijin I sympathize with you and I admire your enthusiasm since you and I both came from Christian backgrounds. However I implore you to reconsider your position. The Mosque mentioned in Sura 171 as being the most distant temple is NOT Jerusalem ( your videos have inaccuracies ) . The Quran did NOT SAY SO. Read the Arabic yourself. Till you can show me and others where it says that the Mosque in Jerusalem is ?almasjidi al-aqsa? then you are only following conjecture.

Also the place of pilgrimage is at Bakka as the Quran says. Not Mecca!

396-97 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.

You can?t say that Mecca is Bakka there are both two different places! The city of Mecca is mentioned only once in the Quran and it was a place that was blocking there donations to the Sacred Masjid. NO WHERE IN THE QURAN DOES IT SAY THAT THE MASJID RESIDED IN MECCA!

You are only following sectarian beliefs which you assume to be correct. Am I not right in saying that you are a bit na?ve . Do you really think that ?the way? was going to be just paved out for you without any sort of studying or verification? Didn?t God say in the Quran not to accept any information unless you verify it for yourself ?(Sura 1736) Have you yourself verified that Mecca is the correct place and not Jerusalem or did you just run with the crowd? Have you studied the history yourself or did you blindly accept what other people said?

Please verify the evidence yourself and you will see that all roads lead to Jerusalem and not Mecca.

Peace,

Kevin D.Cooper peace

[warner]

Peace Raging

According to the Quran the pilgrimage is to the house ( and not to the Masjidul Haram). The house was existing during Abrahams time. Abraham was raising the foundation and purifying the house, therefore your point of the non existence of a structure contradicts the Quran. Then Abraham invites mankind for the pilgrimage. So the pilgrimage would have happened from that point.

The bibilical temple Solomon built was after the Exodus. But the actual existence of Solomons temple is debated. Jerusalem is the most excavated place on earth for archeological research and IMHO there has not been one single evidence of such a temple. Maybe evidence of Herods temple but not Solomons temple. But I would like to see any information on this.

[Layth]

Salam Wakas,

I do not think this is an appropriate thread to discuss Salat - off topic.

I will just mention that the reason I had problems with the 3 Salat previously was because, due to my understanding at the time, the Wusta was comming up at maghrib/dusk while the Isha was on its heels 30-45 minutes later.

After revisiting the issue, I found that the problem was with my understanding of "dulook" and "taraf" which both occurs at the suns zenith (noon) thus making the Wusta time begin at noon, but last until dusk.

Thus the 3 Salat's are evenly spaced out, with a mercy from God given during the Wusta that gives flexibility in its time.

Regards,

[Layth]

Salam Warner,

Please lets avoind the Salat discussion here - off topic.

A sunni mufti debating with me once mentioned salawaat ( plural of salat) is mentioned five times in the Quran which is another indicator that the 5 time salat theory is correct. I could care less to check the number of salawaats in the quran.

Anyone can manipulate numbers to arrive at the conclusion they want. The verses on qibla or masjid ul haram have no single mention of salat or not even a vague reference to it. Its arbitrary from you to use the number of times some unrelated verses were used in the Quran to justify the 3 times salat.

Also what about the additional night salat mentioned in 1779.

I merely commented that this was an interesting fact - that I had not seen before. Basing findings on the count of numbers is misleading at best, manipulative at worst.

You can read my work on Salat on this site - it is based on specific verses and names given for Salat times, never based on numbers!

Finally, on the link between Qibla and Salat, you need to read 1087 where a shift in Qibla is linked with the act of Salat.

Regards,

[Layth]

Dear Raging,

I have read your post but keep finding a jumble of different issues...

1. Your main obstacle seems to be "the Jews and Christians are doing/saying this and I need to be in opposition to them!". This is neither a constructive nor objective way of doing research - you have God's verses, go and correlate them until the best understanding is obtained...But to simply reject because a people you may dislike are alluding to it is a failure from the start.

2. You are still missing the point that the location of the Shrine/Bayt is called "Bakka" in the Quran, and not "Makka" as you keep referring to in your posts.

3. You are confusing Solomon, the Jews, and Abraham....Pilgrimage was called to by Abraham (not Solomon) so any people who heeded the call would know about this issue and a structure would have been standing since then - as the foundation for the Bayt stood before even Abraham.

4. Sunni/Shite data seem to carry much weight with your arguments...Not only are you taking them as a reference to tell us where the Masjid Haram/Pilgrimage is, but you also use their same arguments wrongly naming the "Masjid Aqsa" as Jerusalem - when the wording of the verse make it clear it is the "furthest temple" where Mohammed witnessed signs from His Lord.

Regards,

[Wakas]

peace Layth,

Feel free to discuss it here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596565.210

I strongly recommend to clarify the time-range for each of the salat you have mentioned and from which verses you are taking this to see if it holds weight. I personally cannot see how this can work.

[raginggaijin]

Brother raginggaijin I sympathize with you and I admire your enthusiasm since you and I both came from Christian backgrounds. However I implore you to reconsider your position. The Mosque mentioned in Sura 171 as being the most distant temple is NOT Jerusalem ( your videos have inaccuracies ) . The Quran did NOT SAY SO.

KDC501,

You say the videos have inaccuracies but fail to provide them.
Yet when we study the Quran, we find the Quran disagrees with you.
There is a Temple described in the Quran in detail, in the very chapter called ?Bani Israel?. Let us read

?Glory be to Him, who carried His servant by night from the Holy Mosque to the Further Mosque the precincts of which We have blessed, that We might show him some of Our signs. He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing.? Surah 171

Al-Aqsa Mosque is named here in the Quran, as shown in the Arabic
?Subhana allathee asra biAAabdihi laylan mina almasjidi alharami ila almasjidi alaqsa allathee barakna hawlahu linuriyahu min ayatina innahu huwa alssameeAAu albaseeru? Surah 171

Where is Masjid Al-Aqsa located today? In Jerusalem.

You say ?read the Arabic yourself?, and continually throughout these replies, I have brought the Arabic along with the translation for clarity. Yet you have brought links to hadith written by men.
You make claims but fail to provide any proof from the Quran to back up your claims.

As a Christian you should know that explanation is not proof. How long did we believe in men when they only misguided us and taught falsehood. What will it take for you to stop believing in men and turn to Allah alone for guidance and explanation?
Explanation is not proof.

Let?s continue reading, for we see that Allah makes mention of Moses (pbuh)
?And We gave Moses the Book, and made it a guidance to the Children of Israel 'Take not unto yourselves any guardian apart from Me.'
The seed of those We bore with Noah; he was a thankful servant.? Surah 172-3

So the Bani Israel have guidance given to them through Moses (pbuh).
Now the meat of the matter.

?And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Book 'You shall do corruption in the earth twice, and you shall ascend exceeding high.'
So, when the promise of the first of these came to pass, We sent against you servants of Ours, men of great might, and they went through the habitations, and it was a promise performed.
Then We gave back to you the turn to prevail over them, and We succoured you with wealth and children, and We made you a greater host.
'If you do good, it is your own souls you do good to, and if you do evil it is to them likewise.' Then, when the promise of the second came to pass, We sent against you Our servants to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple (almasjida), as they entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly that which they ascended to.? Surah 174-7

Which Temple was destroyed twice for the disobedience of the Bani Israel?
The Temple in Jerusalem.
You cannot deny it. You cannot refute it.
You uphold historical record over the Quran, as proven by your words. Yet even when the Quran verifies what truly happened, you ignore this historical record as well.

Are you saying Masjid Al-Haram was destroyed twice? Is that your claim? If so, where is your proof?

?And We settled the Children of Israel in a sure settlement, and We provided them with good things; so they differed not until the knowledge came to them. Surely thy Lord will decide between them on the Day of Resurrection touching their differences.
So, if thou art in doubt regarding what We have sent down to thee, ask those who recite the Book before thee. The truth has come to thee from thy Lord; so be not of the doubters,? Surah 1093-94

Are you saying the Jews are wrong in saying their Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed twice?
Are you saying the historians are wrong in saying the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed twice?
You haven?t spoken to any Jews about their beliefs, have you?

You say you have read the Bible, yet you fail to mention the collection of Books called ?The Bible? contains writings of these events ? including the prophecy given to the Messiah (pbuh) about the destruction and the raising of a pagan temple within - and you ignore this as well.

To make your studies easier, would you like me to post the chapter and verses for you?

History reports this destruction.
The previous Books speak of this destruction.
The Jews teach of this destruction and act accordingly still to this day.
The Quran verifies the Truth about these events in Surah 171-7.
?and to enter the Temple (almasjida), as they entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly that which they ascended to.?

Read the Arabic yourself.

We will continue to bring the Arabic revelation as proof. Years ago when I was guided to Al-Islam, I was told by a follower of hadith that I cannot know the Quran without reading Arabic. So I asked Allah to teach me Arabic. Over the years, He has provided opportunities to learn this language, and increase my knowledge of the Quran.

Till you can show me and others where it says that the Mosque in Jerusalem is ?almasjidi al-aqsa? then you are only following conjecture.

What Temple was destroyed twice in Jerusalem? Masjid Al-Aqsa. It is even described in the Quran as shown above.
When I Google ?Masjid Al-Aqsa?, where am I taken to?

Let me Google that for you
http//lmgtfy.com/?q=masjid+al-aqsa
Hey, what do you know? Jerusalem.

How about Masjid Al-Haram?
http//lmgtfy.com/?q=masjid+al-haram
Hey, what do you know? Mecca. You can even see the Kaaba inside of Masjid Al-Haram.

Are you striving to say the Dome of the Rock is Masjid Al-Haram? Is that your claim?

You are welcome to believe the Dome of the Rock is Masjid Al-Haram, but I cannot believe as you believe when the Quran contains a clear description of Masjid Al-Aqsa, and its destruction.

Also the place of pilgrimage is at Bakka as the Quran says. Not Mecca!

Then why are you not traveling to Lebanon?

http//www.the-lebanon.com/lebanon_country/map/lebanon_sm02.gif
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_2hc1Zl9aFaA/RtUr-Ht2WII/AAAAAAAAAA8/3Evry-f-nUc/s1600-h/bakkamap.jpg

Even Google Maps will show you
http//maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=google+maps&cp=7&qe=Z29vZ2xlIA&qesig=Dv_yC9Stvk19JER3f5CWig&pkc=AFgZ2tkhP-G98ti4aWKKSMAKHin3T7_P7w6MR7zogrNyQ7njPhmoPbIBoNmF0kiLZDlaJCDHhiovUaLYL1ce81mSXPT9_gjTVg&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1589&bih=703&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

You didn?t think to search for it, did you?

So now you have a problem. Man tells you Baca is in Jerusalem. Man also tells you Bakka is in Lebanon.
Who are you going to believe? Man?

Or Allah?

Man makes mistakes. Man forgets.
Allah neither makes mistakes nor forgets. Surah 482, 2052

If you believe Baca is the place, then you are welcome to your beliefs. As shown using proof from the Quran, I cannot believe as you believe. Allah explains the Quran.

The place where Masjid Al-Haram is located matches the description of Bakka as given in the Quran, and verifies that previous Prophets like David (pbuh) performed the pilgrimage to the House prior to the building of their Temple.

The Quran is the verifier of the previous Books. Surah 548-50
We are warned about following the low desires of those who inherited previous Books. Surah 549-50, 577

"And We set, between them and the cities (alqura)that We have blessed (barakna), cities apparent (quran thahiratan) and well We measured (waqaddarna) the sierras (alssayra) between them 'Journey among them by night and day in security!'" Surah 3418

Sierras are mountain ranges. Mountain ranges that can be found between the Sacred Mosque, Masjid Al-Haram, in Mecca and the Temple of Jerusalem, Masjid Al-Aqsa.

Map of Ancient Arabia
http//www.wdl.org/en/item/2923

396-97 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
In it are clear signs the place of Abraham. Whoever enters it will be secure. Pilgrimage to the sanctuary is a duty from God for the people who can afford a means to it. Whoever rejects, and then God has no need of the worlds.

Do you think the ?place (maqamu) of Abraham? is a rock?
Let?s read the Arabic.

The first House (awwala baytin) established for the people (lilnnasi) was that at Bakka (bibakkata), a place holy, and a guidance (wahudan) to all beings (lilAAalameena).
Therein are clear signs (ayatun) -- the station (maqamu) of Abraham, and whosoever enters it is in security. It is the duty of all men towards Allah to come to the House (albayti) a pilgrim, if he is able to make his way there. As for the unbeliever, Allah is All-sufficient nor needs any being.? Surah 396-97

The location of the place of Abraham (pbuh) is a sign. Surah 396-97
The station (maqami) of Abraham Surah 2125, 397, 2226
maqami A sphere of duty, a place of importance established for service to Allah.

?Say 'O my people, act according to your station (makanatikum); I am acting. And assuredly you will know who shall possess the Abode Ultimate. Surely the evildoers will not prosper.'? Surah 6135
?and We will surely make you to dwell in the land after them -- that, for him who fears My station (maqamee) and fears My threat.'? Surah 1414
?And as for the night, keep vigil a part of it, as a work of supererogation for thee; it may be that thy Lord will raise thee up to a laudable station (maqaman).? Surah 1779

Nowhere in the Quran does it designate 'maqami' as a fixed position like a rock or a pair of feet indented in the ground, but as a sphere of duty, a place of importance established for service to Allah.
Inside Masjid Al-Haram is the Kaaba, the House of Abraham.

You are welcome to believe the ?maqamu Ibrahim? is a rock. By study and verification based on the reading of the Quran, asking Allah alone to explain, I cannot believe as you believe. Allah is Guide.

You can?t say that Mecca is Bakka there are both two different places! The city of Mecca is mentioned only once in the Quran and it was a place that was blocking there donations to the Sacred Masjid. NO WHERE IN THE QURAN DOES IT SAY THAT THE MASJID RESIDED IN MECCA!

What description does the Quran give of the location of Masjid Al-Haram? Had you continued reading you would see that the the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers entered Masjid Al-Haram after their victory. The vision Allah gave the Prophet was fulfilled.

?They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Holy Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account (that God may admit into His mercy whom He will), had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement.
When the unbelievers set in their hearts fierceness, the fierceness of pagandom, then God sent down His Shechina upon His Messenger and the believers, and fastened to them the word of godfearing to which they have better right and are worthy of; and God has' knowledge of everything.
God has indeed fulfilled the vision He vouchsafed to His Messenger truly 'You shall enter the Holy Mosque, if God wills, in security, your heads shaved, your hair cut short, not fearing.' He knew what you knew not, and appointed ere that a nigh victory.?Surah 4825-27

?And when We appointed the House to be a place of visitation for the people, and a sanctuary, and 'Take to yourselves Abraham's station for a place of prayer.' And We made covenant with Abraham and Ishmael 'Purify My House for those that shall go about it and those that cleave to it, to those who bow and prostrate themselves.' Surah 2125

Provision is provided for them ? sown land is not near
Our Lord, I have made some of my seed to dwell in a valley where is no sown land by Thy Holy House; Our Lord, let them perform the prayer, and make hearts of men yearn towards them, and provide them with fruits; haply they will be thankful. (Ibrahim 37)

?And when Abraham said, 'My Lord, make this a land secure, and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in God and the Last Day.' He said, 'And whoso disbelieves, to him I shall give enjoyment a little, then I shall compel him to the chastisement of the Fire -- how evil a homecoming!'? Surah 2126
?O believers, the idolaters are indeed unclean; so let them not come near the Holy Mosque after this year of theirs. If you fear poverty, God shall surely enrich you of His bounty, if He will; God is All-knowing; All-wise.? Surah 928

?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857

What provision is brought to Jerusalem to be fed to the poor and well fed, as the Quran instructs? None. No sacrifices occur there at all.
Temple Mount isn?t a valley either, as the Quran states the House is in a valley.
Yet every year sacrifices are made at Masjid Al-Haram, and the bounty sent to the poor.
Allah is clear the Kaaba is the place of sacrifice/donation Surah 595-97, 2233

While focusing on where the qiblah is, the majority lose sight of why the qiblah was established.
Do you know what we are to do at Masjid Al-Haram, based on reading the Quran?

The land is made secure
?And when Abraham said, 'My Lord, make this land secure, and turn me and my sons away from serving idols;? Surah 1435
?Have they not seen that We have appointed a sanctuary secure, while all about them the people are snatched away? What, do they believe in vanity, and do they disbelieve in God's blessing?? Surah 2967

Jerusalem has been destroyed twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. The ruins of the Temple precincts are still seen today, and conflict and violence rages there daily.
Yet Masjid Al-Haram, still standing today and surrounding the Kaaba, remains a place of peace even to this day. When it is attacked, the intruders are routed, never to attack again.

The land is made sacred
?I have only been commanded to serve the Lord of this territory which He has made sacred; to Him belongs everything. And I have been commanded to be of those that surrender,? Surah 2791

Is the land of Jerusalem considered sacred? Not by the Jews.
The Jews only consider the Temple Mount sacred.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileHebrew_domeEntrance_sign.jpg
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileSign_at_entrance_to_Temple_.jpg

The town that expelled the Prophet (pbuh) will be destroyed
?How many a city that was stronger in might than thy town which has expelled thee have We destroyed! And there was no helper for them.? Surah 4713
?Indeed they were near to startling thee from the land, to expel thee from it, and then they would have tarried after thee only a little ?? Surah 1776
?It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4
?We already seized them with the chastisement, yet they abased not themselves to their Lord nor were they humble;? Surah 2376

The Temple in Jerusalem ? Masjid Al-Aqsa - was destroyed in 70 AD.
Petra was destroyed after the 4th Centry (500 AD).
Masjid Al-Haram still stands today.

The believers inherited their lands
?and We will surely make you to dwell in the land after them -- that, for him who fears My station and fears My threat.'? Surah 1414
?And He bequeathed upon you their lands, their habitations, and their possessions, and a land you never trod. God is powerful over everything.? Surah 3327

Muhammad (pbuh) and the believers were not exiled from Mecca. They were exiled from Midian, known as Nabatean Petra in the Byzantine empire.

You are only following sectarian beliefs which you assume to be correct. Am I not right in saying that you are a bit na?ve .

You result to Insult when you have not read the entire Quran, nor have you verified the Arabic, and you uphold the teachings of a man who upholds the word of Patrica Crone ? an outspoken opponent of Al-Islam. (You didn?t think I read your 28 page pamphlet, did you? )
But you call me naive.

Do you really think that ?the way? was going to be just paved out for you without any sort of studying or verification?

And you attempt Invalidation as well.
I?m used to this by now as you are not the first, nor will you be the last to use this type of rhetoric. It?s one of the lowest forms of rhetoric, right above Insult, and it proves you don?t have any basis of argument.

Don?t look at my post count to see if I have studied or not. I am not here to banter daily with people, taking my deen as a past-time. I post when I believe I have something to share.
My studies on this subject began over 2 years ago, when I was still fresh to the deen of Al-Islam. Proof is on these forums, as shown from this post in Feb, 2009

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16931.msg193796#msg193796

Didn?t God say in the Quran not to accept any information unless you verify it for yourself ?(Sura 1736) Have you yourself verified that Mecca is the correct place and not Jerusalem or did you just run with the crowd? Have you studied the history yourself or did you blindly accept what other people said?

I have been studying this subject for quite some time now, while seeking answers to these questions brought forth during discussion. You are welcome to read where I started in 2009, and see where Allah has guided my studies
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598169.msg239537#msg239537
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598169.msg239541#msg239541
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598169.msg267455#msg267455
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598169.msg279236#msg279236

What have you done besides read a 28 page booklet?
Had you looked into who you were speaking to you wouldn?t have your foot in your mouth right now.

Please verify the evidence yourself and you will see that all roads lead to Jerusalem and not Mecca.

You have not brought any proof to support why you believe what you believe. I should take you on your word alone, when you beckon me back to disbelief I was guided out of by Allah?

Based on proof from the Quran, the qiblah of Muslims who follow the revelation of the Quran is Masjid Al-Haram in Mecca.

The original Arabic in Surah 2 142-150 states 'Masjid Al-Haram'.
The Sacred Mosque.

We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144,149,150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144,147,149

When proof is given, who truly is shown to have studied and verified, and who follows hadith written by men?
Even a 28 page booklet is hadith.

When you finally read the entire Quran, don?t stop. Do it again. And again. Every day, in the morning and evening, read a portion of the Quran and ask Allah to guide you. Ask Allah to explain the Quran to you.

?Whosoever is guided, is only guided to his own gain, and whosoever goes astray, it is only to his own loss; no soul laden bears the load of another. We never chastise, until We send forth a Messenger.? Surah 1715

You resort on Insult and Invalidation, which proves to me you have nothing to stand upon but conjecture. Had you an argument based on evidence ? proof - you would have brought it to bear and not relied upon demeaning the person you are speaking to.

I am not telling you or asking you to believe me. On the contrary, don?t believe anything I say until you confirm it using the Quran. Allah alone is Guide. Serve Him and do not follow guardians beside Him.

Now, you probably haven?t read all of this, if you read any of this. I don?t know, and it doesn?t really matter. To you are your deeds and to me are mine.
These dialogues are used for me to test the knowledge I am given, as Allah is clear the final arugment is His. If a person cannot reply to me with proof to refute me, then I know I am on the right track.
But based on our current discussion, I expect three possible replies from you

1. You won?t reply at all.
2. You will dismiss me without providing proof to refute what is shown. (As Layth did.)
3. You will provide proof from the Quran to show where I am wrong.

Allah knows what you will do.

For the Cliff Notes version of what I believe
Masjid Al-Haram is in Mecca.
The Kaaba is not our qiblah. The Islamists say the Kaaba is their qiblah, based on their hadith. Our qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram, the building that surrounds the Kaaba.
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the believers were exiled from Midan, aka Nabatean Petra.
The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the believers inherited the lands of the disbelievers, which included Mecca.

And remember, explanation is not proof.
Bring your proof.

Peace.

[raginggaijin]

Dear Raging,

I have read your post but keep finding a jumble of different issues...

1. Your main obstacle seems to be "the Jews and Christians are doing/saying this and I need to be in opposition to them!". This is neither a constructive nor objective way of doing research - you have God's verses, go and correlate them until the best understanding is obtained...But to simply reject because a people you may dislike are alluding to it is a failure from the start.

2. You are still missing the point that the location of the Shrine/Bayt is called "Bakka" in the Quran, and not "Makka" as you keep referring to in your posts.

3. You are confusing Solomon, the Jews, and Abraham....Pilgrimage was called to by Abraham (not Solomon) so any people who heeded the call would know about this issue and a structure would have been standing since then - as the foundation for the Bayt stood before even Abraham.

4. Sunni/Shite data seem to carry much weight with your arguments...Not only are you taking them as a reference to tell us where the Masjid Haram/Pilgrimage is, but you also use their same arguments wrongly naming the "Masjid Aqsa" as Jerusalem - when the wording of the verse make it clear it is the "furthest temple" where Mohammed witnessed signs from His Lord.

Regards,

Layth,

Let me know how your trip to Lebanon works out.

Bakka
http//www.the-lebanon.com/lebanon_country/map/lebanon_sm02.gif
http//2.bp.blogspot.com/_2hc1Zl9aFaA/RtUr-Ht2WII/AAAAAAAAAA8/3Evry-f-nUc/s1600-h/bakkamap.jpg

Even Google Maps will show you
http//maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=google+maps&cp=7&qe=Z29vZ2xlIA&qesig=Dv_yC9Stvk19JER3f5CWig&pkc=AFgZ2tkhP-G98ti4aWKKSMAKHin3T7_P7w6MR7zogrNyQ7njPhmoPbIBoNmF0kiLZDlaJCDHhiovUaLYL1ce81mSXPT9_gjTVg&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1589&bih=703&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

You didn?t think to search for it either, did you?

You say Abraham (pbuh) built a House in Jerusalem. Where is it?
Show proof the foundation was there before Abraham and Ishmael built the House. Don't bring Sunni conjecture based on mistranslation of Surah 2127. Show where it states the foundation for the House was there before Abraham. Bring your proof.
Then you say it's a shrine? Pick a story and stick with it, please.

Show me what Sunni/Shia data I have used, if you speak truthfully.
I've left plenty of posts for you to copy-paste in this thread. And as I've shown in the post preceding this, my research has been extensive and no Islamist hadith is used.
Show the Sunni/Shia hadith I have used. Because even you know the Sunnis face the Kaaba, which is not Masjid Al-Haram. Masjid Al-Haram is the structure that surrounds the Kaaba, the Ancient House.
You have been reading the posts I make, haven't you? You do know that Masjid Al-Haram is not the Kaaba, don't you? You can see that, can't you?

"Those who conceal what of the Book God has sent down on them, and sell it for a little price - they shall eat naught but the Fire in their bellies; God shall not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection neither purify them; there awaits them a painful chastisement." Surah 2174

Explanation is not proof.
If you cannot bring proof to support why you believe what you believe, then why do you return? Your word carries no weight when I have the clear proofs given in the Quran, and you bring nothing in return.

Bring proof or keep silent, it's wiser. )

Peace.

[Layth]

Dear Raging,

I am surprized you actually think your posts had viable proofs in them...

When you are ready to discuss this topic rationally (using the Quran) I would be more than happy to oblige.

To make it simple, pick one specific point and start there.

Till then...To you is your system and to me is mine.

Regards,

[warner]

Peace Layth

Translation of 1087 by you is highly subjective as far as qiblatan is concerned. Although this seem the most easy way out of the confusion of the qibla in this verse even the translators based in tradition avoided it. As you know qibla and the related root is used in the Quran many times with the core meaning of opposite and this verse can easily have another meaning. Also, practically this translation does not make sense, since Musa's people would have numbererd in thousands which would have required few thousand houses . How can you make few thousand houses as the focal point of salat? We already have enough problems with one house in the desert in Mecca, imagine 5000 houses.

[KDC501]

Brother raginggaijin your argument that bakka is in Lebanon is foolish and holds no water.

Bakka (Baca) is a Hebrew name that was used by the Jews to describe a valley in Palestine (For those of you who know your history Israel was part of Palestine before the region was divided). The name bakka in Lebanon was properly coined after ?Islamic conquests?

Read this article http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakkah

?Baca is a Hebrew name that dates to before 1000 BC of a valley in Palestine, and is also a Hebrew term for balsam or mulberry trees that "weep" or bleed sap when they are cut. Bakkah is a more modern language 7th century AD Quraysh Arabic dialect name that some suggest refers to Mecca.?

Bekka is not Mecca. If that was the case then God would have said so in the Quran. However he didn?t . Also no where in the Quran does God say the almasjidi alaqsa ( the most distant temple) is Jerusalem. You are making assumptions with no proof. You are saying things that God never said in the Quran. Also nowhere in the Quran does it say that the Sacred Masjid resided in Mecca.

Sura 6116 If you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

[belH]

Peace all,
This can be solved if you study the Torah and Injeel along with the Quran. My believe is that God protected the books He asked us to believe in. And if there are any distortions, then it will be within the translation but not within the original language. As we all know, the Quran has 1000s of translations with different meanings, as with the Torah and Injeel, but one true Arabic version that no one can play with or deny its authentication and purity.

Torah, Injeel and Quran point to Jerusalem as the place where Maqum Abraham exist today.
Peace

[Layth]

Salam KDC,

Just to make a small note, the area in Lebanon is called "Baqaa3/" with a "q" and "aen" - it is linguistically and phenotically not even in the same neighborhood as "Bakka" (Ba Ka Ta). I guess the English map makers did not know how to write "Ba Qa 3a" so they came up with "bakka" as being the closest fit.

[Layth]

Salam Warner,

Translation of 1087 by you is highly subjective as far as qiblatan is concerned. Although this seem the most easy way out of the confusion of the qibla in this verse even the translators based in tradition avoided it. As you know qibla and the related root is used in the Quran many times with the core meaning of opposite and this verse can easily have another meaning. Also, practically this translation does not make sense, since Musa's people would have numbererd in thousands which would have required few thousand houses . How can you make few thousand houses as the focal point of salat? We already have enough problems with one house in the desert in Mecca, imagine 5000 houses.

Qibla = to face / head towards.

As for the translation not making sence, you need to read the entire context again - carefully.

Moses and his people are on the run from Phraoh...They have left their homes behind them in Egypt and are on the move towards the Red Sea heading for the Holy Land...God tells them through Moses to make their homes as their "Qibla" which means facing backwards towards the area of danger that Pharoah and his army are comming, rather than the Holy Land and giving their backs to Pharoah and his army.

[raginggaijin]

Brother raginggaijin your argument that bakka is in Lebanon is foolish and holds no water.

Bakka (Baca) is a Hebrew name that was used by the Jews to describe a valley in Palestine (For those of you who know your history Israel was part of Palestine before the region was divided). The name bakka in Lebanon was properly coined after ?Islamic conquests?

Proof of this claim that Bakka in Lebanon was coined after 'Islamic conquests'?

?Baca is a Hebrew name that dates to before 1000 BC of a valley in Palestine, and is also a Hebrew term for balsam or mulberry trees that "weep" or bleed sap when they are cut. Bakkah is a more modern language 7th century AD Quraysh Arabic dialect name that some suggest refers to Mecca.?

You ignore the fact the Hebrew is still with us today, which disproves your 'Baca' comment. If you refuse to believe me, check the Hebrew yourself.

Hebrew (emeq habakka) Psalm 841-12

"Behold, the first Temple ever set up for mankind was indeed the one at Bakkah, rich in blessing, and a guidance unto all the worlds," Surah 396

Arabic (B-k-h)
Hebrew (B-k-h)

Those who say there is no relation between Hebrew and Arabic refuse to acknowledge the Semitic origins of both languages. I suggest you look up 'Semitic Languages' on Wikipedia or other venues of knowledge, and then turn to the Hebrew Books to see your knowledge of Arabic will assist you in understanding their ancient Hebrew writ in their Masoretic texts.

Bekka is not Mecca. If that was the case then God would have said so in the Quran. However he didn?t . Also no where in the Quran does God say the almasjidi alaqsa ( the most distant temple) is Jerusalem. You are making assumptions with no proof. You are saying things that God never said in the Quran. Also nowhere in the Quran does it say that the Sacred Masjid resided in Mecca.

Sura 6116 If you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you away from God's path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.

If you want to uphold Wikipedia and other hadiths of man over the Books Allah revealed, you are more than welcome to do so. As shown, I bring proofs from the Quran and what is verified in previous Books to show why I believe what I believe.

However, before you lump me in with the 'majority', realize that I am the only person here saying our qiblah is Masjid Al-Haram, in Mecca.
The Islamists say our qiblah is the Kaaba, the House inside Masjid Al-Haram.
The Free-Minds followers say our qiblah is Jerusalem.

So in actuality, I am not the majority, but part of a very small minority. )
Even if it's an Ummah of one, uphold the Truth.

All power is due to Allah, Lord of all beings.
May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.

Peace.

[raginggaijin]

Dear Raging,

I am surprized you actually think your posts had viable proofs in them...

When you are ready to discuss this topic rationally (using the Quran) I would be more than happy to oblige.

You make claims and fail to provide proof. I make claims and provide proof. Who is rational and who is irrational?
Since you cannot bring proof to support your accusations against me, you also commit slander. That only adds burden of sin on your soul, Layth. I recommend using evidence-based rhetoric next time instead of Invalidation and Insult. It's better for you.

Bring your proof. Explanation is not proof.

Till then...To you is your system and to me is mine.

I agree. )

I thank Allah for this opportunity to increase my iman and share the knowledge He has given me.
All praise is due to Allah, Lord of all beings. Him do I serve and Him alone do I beseech for help.

Peace.

[KDC501]

Brother raginggaijin your understanding of the Quran is backward. When God says not to uphold any sayings (Hadith?s and Sunna) beside the Quran he was only referring to areas of religious guidance. The Quran is our only guide when it comes to understanding the real duties that God has commanded us to do. Hadiths and Sunna are filled with contradictions and it is from those books that the Muslims today believe that Mecca is the city of Pilgrimage.
Also using historical references for studying is not wrong. As a matter of fact it is encouraged in the Quran. How many stories have you read in the Quran that happened in the present? Did the story of Noah, Isa, and Abraham happen last week? Where is your common sense?

In addition you are in the majority and not in the minority of those who believe that Mecca is the Qibla. This site doesn?t constitute all the Muslims of the world. More than 90% of all ?Muslims? believe that Mecca is the Qibla and place of Pilgrimage. The fact that you are in the minority of one site with a few hundred people is a nonsensical argument to prove your point that Mecca is the place of Pilgrimage when the Quran doesn?t say so.

Peace,

Kevin D.Cooper peace

[raginggaijin]

Brother raginggaijin your understanding of the Quran is backward. When God says not to uphold any sayings (Hadith?s and Sunna) beside the Quran he was only referring to areas of religious guidance. The Quran is our only guide when it comes to understanding the real duties that God has commanded us to do. Hadiths and Sunna are filled with contradictions and it is from those books that the Muslims today believe that Mecca is the city of Pilgrimage.
Also using historical references for studying is not wrong. As a matter of fact it is encouraged in the Quran. How many stories have you read in the Quran that happened in the present? Did the story of Noah, Isa, and Abraham happen last week? Where is your common sense?

History upholds the destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel in Jerusalem.
The previous Books uphold the destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel in Jerusalem.
The Quran describes the destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel, where the Bani Israel settled, verifying the Truth.

The Quran describes the maqami as a sphere of influence.
You say maqami is a rock.

The Quran describes the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the believers settling in a secure, sacred place where a provision is not available, while Allah brings provision to them.
You say a location of ruins where conflict and daily strife are the norm, with no established pilgrimage or sacrifice is the place they settled.

The Quran describes the town that exiled the Prophet Muhammad and the believers and speaks of its destruction.
You say the town that was destroyed was Mecca but named Petra, and that the Prophet and the believers settled in a place that was destroyed where the ruins of the previous Temple still stand today.

The Quran describes the House in a valley.
You say the House is on a Mount.

And you attack me saying I lack common sense. By what do you judge?

You are taking writings of man as a religious guidance. That is shirk, even if it's a 28 page booklet whose foundation is based on the writings of an opponent of Al-Islam; Patricia Crone.

In addition you are in the majority and not in the minority of those who believe that Mecca is the Qibla. This site doesn?t constitute all the Muslims of the world. More than 90% of all ?Muslims? believe that Mecca is the Qibla and place of Pilgrimage. The fact that you are in the minority of one site with a few hundred people is a nonsensical argument to prove your point that Mecca is the place of Pilgrimage when the Quran doesn?t say so.

Once more you are incorrect.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibla
"According to accounts from Muhammad's companions, the change happened very suddenly during the noon prayer in Medina, in a mosque now known as Masjid al-Qiblatain (Mosque of the Two Qiblahs). Muhammad was leading the prayer when he received revelations from God instructing him to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah...
The Qiblah, for any point of reference on the Earth, is the direction of the Kaaba."

Masjid Al-Haram is the building that surrounds the Kaaba - the Ancient House where sacrifices are to be taken for Hajj.
Yet the Islamists strive to say the Kaaba is Masjid Al-Haram.

You can't continue discussion without insults, so I leave you be and bid you peace.

"So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- satans of men and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112

Peace.