Is Jerusalem the Qibla?
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Brother raginggaijin your understanding of the Quran is backward. When God says not to uphold any sayings (Hadith?s and Sunna) beside the Quran he was only referring to areas of religious guidance. The Quran is our only guide when it comes to understanding the real duties that God has commanded us to do. Hadiths and Sunna are filled with contradictions and it is from those books that the Muslims today believe that Mecca is the city of Pilgrimage.
Also using historical references for studying is not wrong. As a matter of fact it is encouraged in the Quran. How many stories have you read in the Quran that happened in the present? Did the story of Noah, Isa, and Abraham happen last week? Where is your common sense?In addition you are in the majority and not in the minority of those who believe that Mecca is the Qibla. This site doesn?t constitute all the Muslims of the world. More than 90% of all ?Muslims? believe that Mecca is the Qibla and place of Pilgrimage. The fact that you are in the minority of one site with a few hundred people is a nonsensical argument to prove your point that Mecca is the place of Pilgrimage when the Quran doesn?t say so.
Peace,
Kevin D.Cooper peace
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Brother raginggaijin your understanding of the Quran is backward. When God says not to uphold any sayings (Hadith?s and Sunna) beside the Quran he was only referring to areas of religious guidance. The Quran is our only guide when it comes to understanding the real duties that God has commanded us to do. Hadiths and Sunna are filled with contradictions and it is from those books that the Muslims today believe that Mecca is the city of Pilgrimage.
Also using historical references for studying is not wrong. As a matter of fact it is encouraged in the Quran. How many stories have you read in the Quran that happened in the present? Did the story of Noah, Isa, and Abraham happen last week? Where is your common sense?History upholds the destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel in Jerusalem.
The previous Books uphold the destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel in Jerusalem.
The Quran describes the destruction of the Temple of the Bani Israel, where the Bani Israel settled, verifying the Truth.The Quran describes the maqami as a sphere of influence.
You say maqami is a rock.The Quran describes the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the believers settling in a secure, sacred place where a provision is not available, while Allah brings provision to them.
You say a location of ruins where conflict and daily strife are the norm, with no established pilgrimage or sacrifice is the place they settled.The Quran describes the town that exiled the Prophet Muhammad and the believers and speaks of its destruction.
You say the town that was destroyed was Mecca but named Petra, and that the Prophet and the believers settled in a place that was destroyed where the ruins of the previous Temple still stand today.The Quran describes the House in a valley.
You say the House is on a Mount.And you attack me saying I lack common sense. By what do you judge?
You are taking writings of man as a religious guidance. That is shirk, even if it's a 28 page booklet whose foundation is based on the writings of an opponent of Al-Islam; Patricia Crone.
In addition you are in the majority and not in the minority of those who believe that Mecca is the Qibla. This site doesn?t constitute all the Muslims of the world. More than 90% of all ?Muslims? believe that Mecca is the Qibla and place of Pilgrimage. The fact that you are in the minority of one site with a few hundred people is a nonsensical argument to prove your point that Mecca is the place of Pilgrimage when the Quran doesn?t say so.
Once more you are incorrect.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibla
"According to accounts from Muhammad's companions, the change happened very suddenly during the noon prayer in Medina, in a mosque now known as Masjid al-Qiblatain (Mosque of the Two Qiblahs). Muhammad was leading the prayer when he received revelations from God instructing him to take the Kaaba as the Qiblah...
The Qiblah, for any point of reference on the Earth, is the direction of the Kaaba."Masjid Al-Haram is the building that surrounds the Kaaba - the Ancient House where sacrifices are to be taken for Hajj.
Yet the Islamists strive to say the Kaaba is Masjid Al-Haram.You can't continue discussion without insults, so I leave you be and bid you peace.
"So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- satans of men and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112
Peace.
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Peace Layth
1087 does not indicate that Moses has strated taking his people out of Egypt at that point.
"...Let your people leave their homes in Egypt...." 1087 (Progressive Muslim translation) this is not in the Quran.
The core meaning derived from the usage of the root qa ba lam in the Quran is 'opposite". But if you insist, to twist the meaning to arrive at "face/ head towards" its your choice.
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Peace
Salam KDC,
Just to make a small note, the area in Lebanon is called "Baqaa3/" with a "q" and "aen" - it is linguistically and phenotically not even in the same neighborhood as "Bakka" (Ba Ka Ta). I guess the English map makers did not know how to write "Ba Qa 3a" so they came up with "bakka" as being the closest fit.
Many locations in Palestine /Israel have Hebrew names. There are many similairties, lexical and phonetic, between Hebrew and Arabic. But that does not mean they have to share the same roots to have the same meaning. For instance shalom/ salam and melech/ malak. Its quite possible the Hebrew biqa is same as the Arabic bakka since there are many such phonetically similar ( but not same) words having the same meaning in Hebrew and Arabic.
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Salam,
You make claims and fail to provide proof. I make claims and provide proof. Who is rational and who is irrational?
Since you cannot bring proof to support your accusations against me, you also commit slander. That only adds burden of sin on your soul, Layth. I recommend using evidence-based rhetoric next time instead of Invalidation and Insult. It's better for you.You mean proofs like your continuos posts calling the place of pilgrimage "Makka" when God calls it "Bakka" (396)?
Yes, very rational indeed!
Like I said, when you are ready to put emotions aside and discuss this topic using the Quran (you can start by calling in Bakka) then we can talk further.
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Salam Warner,
1087 does not indicate that Moses has strated taking his people out of Egypt at that point.
"...Let your people leave their homes in Egypt...." 1087 (Progressive Muslim translation) this is not in the Quran.
The core meaning derived from the usage of the root qa ba lam in the Quran is 'opposite". But if you insist, to twist the meaning to arrive at "face/ head towards" its your choice.
I asked that you read the context - carefully.
1086, the peopel of Moses ask that they be saved from pharoah.
1087, Moses is inspired to search out new homes for his people, while making their exisiting homes as "Qibla" and upholding the Salat
1088, Moses prays that God takes away all the wealth of pharoah and his people
1089, God agrees
1090, Moses and hsi people reach the Red Sea, and Pharaoh is drowned.As for the meaning of "QBL", please don't use dramatic "you twist the meaning" statements...The verses of the Quran consistently apply this word to "face/towards" never "opposite/away" (see 2142-145, and 1087 - especially 2144).
Many locations in Palestine /Israel have Hebrew names. There are many similairties, lexical and phonetic, between Hebrew and Arabic. But that does not mean they have to share the same roots to have the same meaning. For instance shalom/ salam and melech/ malak. Its quite possible the Hebrew biqa is same as the Arabic bakka since there are many such phonetically similar ( but not same) words having the same meaning in Hebrew and Arabic.
How has "Biqa" in Lebanon now become a Hebrew word? Let's stick to Arabic words/sounds when discussing the Quran as it is an Arabic book.
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peace Layth,
Moses and his people are on the run from Phraoh...They have left their homes behind them in Egypt and are on the move towards the Red Sea heading for the Holy Land...God tells them through Moses to make their homes as their "Qibla" which means facing backwards towards the area of danger that Pharoah and his army are comming, rather than the Holy Land and giving their backs to Pharoah and his army.
Why are "Moses and his people" unable to implement the solution in 4102?
"...Let your people leave their homes in Egypt...." 1087
"tabawwa" is in the DUAL thus the verb is only applicable to Moses and his brother, thus, please provide a translation that is acceptable according to the Arabic so can then evaluate your understanding better.
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Salam Wakas,
Why are "Moses and his people" unable to implement the solution in 4102?
Perhaps because 4102 has not been revealed yet! God gave them a solution for their time - the Torah had not even been revealed by this stage (it was revelaed when Moses went to the mountain), let alone the Quran.
"tabawwa" is in the DUAL thus the verb is only applicable to Moses and his brother, thus, please provide a translation that is acceptable according to the Arabic so can then evaluate your understanding better.
Moses and his brother are being asked to do something...And that is to find suitable homes for their people, while making their exisitng homes their Qibla. Pointing out it is dual (adressing Moses and his brother) does not change from what is being said - in-fact you can see the adress is to Moses and Aaron even without "tabawwaa" needing to be dual.
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peace Layth,
Yes, I am aware 4102 was not revealed yet, but what I'm suggesting is that they are seemingly unable to think of doing "salat" in a rotational manner, e.g. with two groups. What you are suggesting seems very odd to me, but I guess it is theoretically possible.
Pointing out it is dual (adressing Moses and his brother) does not change from what is being said
Actually it does, because the FM translation reads "...Let your people leave their homes in Egypt..." but now you've changed it to
Moses and his brother are being asked to do something...And that is to find suitable homes for their people
Which one is it find homes or leave homes?
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Salam,
You mean proofs like your continuos posts calling the place of pilgrimage "Makka" when God calls it "Bakka" (396)?
The Quran gives description of the location of the House, which is a secure, sacred valley where a provision is not available, while Allah brings provision to them. Allah calls this place 'bakka', while man calls it 'Mecca'.
You disbelieve Mecca is where Masjid Al-Haram is located.Man tells you a location of ruins where conflict and daily strife are the norm (even in the map linked there are areas of , with no established pilgrimage or sacrifice is Ge'ullim, but in parenthesis they say 'Baka' - not 'Baca' as found in the translations of the Bible, or 'bakkah' as found in the Hebrew. Further, you cannot point out the location of the House as the Dome of the Rock is on a Mount, not in a valley, and is the renovated pagan temple of Zeus.
You believe this area is where Masjid Al-Haram is, when you cannot show the actual location of the House at all.Allah gives clear description and you disbelieve.
Man gives you conjecture and you believe.I won't be asked what you do. )
How has "Biqa" in Lebanon now become a Hebrew word? Let's stick to Arabic words/sounds when discussing the Quran as it is an Arabic book.
Far easier than 'Ge'ullim' is (Baka).
Had you researched into who the predecessors of Lebanon were, you would know of the Phoenicians.
They created, by the will of Allah, a Northern Semitic language -Proto-Canaanite - used by the civilization of Phoenicia and adopted by their Mediterranean neighbors. The Aramaic alphabet, a modified form of Phoenician, was the ancestor of the modern Arabic and Hebrew scripts."And Solomon was David's heir, and he said, 'Men, we have been taught the language (mantiqa) of the birds, and we have been given of everything; surely this is indeed the manifest bounty.'" Surah 2716
Proof Birds
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyEpjv2nAhoYes, very rational indeed!
Like I said, when you are ready to put emotions aside and discuss this topic using the Quran (you can start by calling in Bakka) then we can talk further.
No emotions are involved, Layth.
Proofs are given numerous times, in a calm rational manner; listed and repeated. How irrational of me to uphold clear proofs from a clear, pure, protected revelation from the Lord of all beings.If you believe I am misguided, then continue to do so.
I'm not here to guide, as only Allah is Guide.
I won't be asked what anyone did, as I am only responsible for myself.We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144, 2149, 2150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144, 2147, 2149I am not of the doubters. )
Allah does not make mistakes, nor does He err. Surah 482, 2052
"So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- satans of men and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112
You had ample opportunity to provide proof to support why you believe what you believe. In every instance you are unable to do so.
I take my leave of you and bid you 'Peace'. -
Does anyone have any comments on this particular topic?
In regards to "the Bible", it is incomplete, edited and (re)added to in order to suit the agendas of the people who first tried to subdue Christianity in the first place.
I regard any document with suspicion.
Especially those written by "religious scholars".If you wipe the lines on the map, it's one chunk of land amidst one sea.
Al Lah didn't draw those lines. People did. -
Salam Layth
Agreed, " twisting the meaning" above is bit harsh. I withdraw that remark.
Here is your (F/M) translation of 2144 .
"...........We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you "You shall set yourself towards the Restricted Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it."..................................."
You have translated the qibla as "focal point" here and not as "face/head towards". I think you have mixed up these words unintentionally.
Let me try to explain the difference between qa ba la ( in front/ opposite) and face/head towards. Lets assume in a street HSBC is exactly in front of / opposite City Bank. If you stand at the front entrance of City Bank and assume HSBC is your focal point the qibla is HSBC. While you are doing the facing or if you cross the road and walk towards the HSBC the actions "face/head towards" does not become the qibla or your qibla. As I said qibla is always in front/opposite to where you face . So by default your focal point should be in front/ opposite to where you are.
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Salam Layth
In fact 4102 was late by 3 millennia and some since this verse was revealed about 3500 years after the incident in 1087 happened.
The context of 4102 and 1087 are different. In 4102 they are an army prepared for an ambush by the enemy taking precaution while they were praying. The civilian population Moses was leading out of Egypt was no match for the army led by Pharaoh. Even if they change their qibla and look in the direction from which Pharaoh was marching from or they show their backs to him it wouldn?t have mattered.
Even if you assume, with difficulty, such a large army marched silently, if they met they would have been decimated by the powerful army of Pharaoh, not ambushed by it while they were praying. Only thing needed here would have been a watcher/sentry not a change in the direction of the salat and a change of focal point to the all too vague ?houses?. The awkward translation of the verse and the resultant forced meaning to arrive at the conclusion wanted is not credible at all.
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Salam Layth
How has "Biqa" in Lebanon now become a Hebrew word? Let's stick to Arabic words/sounds when discussing the Quran as it is an Arabic book.
Muslims/ Arabs marched in to Jerusalem few years after the Messenger and at that time the revelation of the Quran has been completed. Even if we like it or not, most places and cities in and around Jerusalem had Hebrew names while the Quran was being revealed. And most locations continue to remain in the same Hebrew name to date. If the Quran wants to mention a place in the vicinity of Jerusalem it will have to mention by its Hebrew name and not by its Arabic name since Arabs have not conquered these lands and arabiscized these locations.
It is highly unlikely the Arabs walked in to Jerusalem few years after the Quran has been completed and found a place named ?Bakka? in Arabic. Also can we accept a place named as Bakka by Arabs who walked in to Jerusalem after the Quran was completed as the same Bakka mentioned in the Quran ?
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Is Masjid Al Aqsa (mentioned in Quran) the same as Masjid Al Aqsa located in Jerusalem today?
Salaam,
No, they are separate structures, as shown in the Quran.
"Subhana allathee asra biAAabdihi laylan mina almasjidi alharami ila almasjidi al-aqsa allathee barakna hawlahu linuriyahu min ayatina innahu huwa alssameeAAu albaseeru" Surah 171
"Glory be to Him, who carried His servant by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Further Mosque the precincts of which We have blessed, that We might show him some of Our signs. He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing." Surah 171
Peace.
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Isn?t Bakka unknown (completely foreign) to Islamic scholars? Ask today's average Imam and they don?t even know where Bakka is. The majority of them ASSUME that it is an old name for the city of Mecca. The fact is there is absolutely NO concrete evidence to prove that Bakka is an old name for the city of Mecca. If you know someone who is an Imam go to them and ask them yourself. For those of you who have a copy of Yusef Ali?s translation of the Quran read the commentary of 396
http//www.quran4u.com/Tafsiraya/003%20Imran.htm
Sura 396 The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka
C422. Bakka same as Makkah, perhaps an older name. The foundation of the Ka'bah goes back to Abraham, but there are place associations in the sacred territories with the names of Adam and Eve. (R).
( Why isn?t he sure that Bakka is Mecca?)
Question for warner The above is a commentary of one the most respected Islamic scholars. Does Yusef Ali (who I assume you have heard about) seem to you like he knows where Bakka is? Isn?t he making an assumption? Doesn?t this prove that Bakka is foreign name or completely unknown to those you lived in Arabia?
Also the fact that Bakka is written in Arabic doesn?t mean that is (well was) originally an Arabic word.
For example if I wanted to write that I live in Toronto, Canada in Japanese I would write its Japanese equivalent. However if I wanted to SAY that I live in Toronto , Canada I would say Japanese for " I live in? ??. Toronto, Canada (in English)
The questions that you should be asking warner is who had first claim on the word Baaka (or better yet the sound of the word) Also why is this word a mystery to Islamic scholars and not to those of the previous scripture?
http//www.wrestedscriptures.com/a08islam/psalm84v6.html
? In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. This is to the southwest of Jerusalem and forms an approach route to the city. ?
God doesn?t make mistakes.
Note Bakka is not a foreign name or word to the people of the previous scriptures.
Question for Patanahi Does the Quran say in Arabic that the most distant mosque is in Jerusalem or did you assume that it is in Jerusalem? Sura 17 1
Peace
Kevin peace
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Question for Patanahi Does the Quran say in Arabic that the most distant mosque is in Jerusalem or did you assume that it is in Jerusalem? Sura 17 1
I am trying to find out if there is a link between Masjid Al Aqsa (See Arabic verse 171 in Quran) and Masjid Al Aqsa located in Jerusalem (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque )? In other words, for 171, do we have to translate english equivalent of the Arabic word "Masjid Al Aqsa" actually mentioned in verse 171 as the distant mosque or should we take it as it is which would probably refer to the Masjid Al Aqsa located in Jerusalem (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque ).
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The questions that you should be asking warner is who had first claim on the word Baaka (or better yet the sound of the word) Also why is this word a mystery to Islamic scholars and not to those of the previous scripture?
http//www.wrestedscriptures.com/a08islam/psalm84v6.html
? In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. This is to the southwest of Jerusalem and forms an approach route to the city. ?
God doesn?t make mistakes.
Note Bakka is not a foreign name or word to the people of the previous scriptures.
You are making an error in understanding the collection of Books called the Bible, however. This may be due to being new to the deen of Al-Islam and your past as a Christian.
The previous Books do not verify the Quran. The Quran verifies the previous Books.Allah warns you about upholding the previous Books over what He revealed
"And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance.
And judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, and beware of them lest they tempt thee away from any of what God has sent down to thee. But if they turn their backs, know that God desires only to smite them for some sin they have committed; surely, many men are ungodly.
Is it the judgment of pagandom then that they are seeking? Yet who is fairer in judgment than God, for a people having sure faith?" Surah 548-50The previous Books have been altered and tampered with.
Altering the word Surah 275, 279, 378, 446, 514-15, 7162"Are you then so eager that they should believe you, seeing there is a party of them that heard God's word, and then tampered with it, and that after they had comprehended it, wittingly?" Surah 275
"So woe to those who write the Book with their hands, then say, 'This is from God,' that they may sell it for a little price; so woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings." Surah 279
"And there is a sect of them twist their tongues with the Book, that you may suppose it part of the Book, yet it is not part of the Book; and they say, 'It is from God,' yet it is not from God, and they speak falsehood against God, and that wittingly." Surah 378The Quran gives description of the location of Masjid Al-Haram, and that location is Mecca. Proof is given throughout this thread from the Quran.
I follow only what Allah revealed, the word of an honored Messenger The Quran.
I am trying to find out if there is a link between Masjid Al Aqsa (See Arabic verse 171 in Quran) and Masjid Al Aqsa located in Jerusalem (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque )? In other words, for 171, do we have to translate english equivalent of the Arabic word "Masjid Al Aqsa" actually mentioned in verse 171 as the distant mosque or should we take it as it is which would probably refer to the Masjid Al Aqsa located in Jerusalem (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque ).
The link is in the ayats that follow Surah 171. They give the description of the Temple of the Bani Israel that was destroyed twice for their disobedience.
?And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Book 'You shall do corruption in the earth twice, and you shall ascend exceeding high.'
So, when the promise of the first of these came to pass, We sent against you servants of Ours, men of great might, and they went through the habitations, and it was a promise performed.
Then We gave back to you the turn to prevail over them, and We succoured you with wealth and children, and We made you a greater host.
'If you do good, it is your own souls you do good to, and if you do evil it is to them likewise.' Then, when the promise of the second came to pass, We sent against you Our servants to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple (almasjida), as they entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly that which they ascended to.? Surah 174-7Which Temple was destroyed twice for the disobedience of the Bani Israel?
The Temple in Jerusalem, the precincts Allah has blessed as shown in Surah 171.Muhammad (pbuh) did not know the Book nor faith until Allah revealed to him.
"Even so We have revealed to thee a Spirit of Our bidding. Thou knewest not what the Book was, nor belief; but We made it a light, whereby We guide whom We will of Our servants. And thou, surely thou shalt guide unto a straight path --" Surah 4252
I have created videos using the skills Allah has taught me that contain information on these topics. Insha'Allah, they are study references for those who study the Quran.
Don't take my word for it though. Double-check everything I say, confirm it, and follow only what Allah revealed. If you have a question in translation, return to the Arabic revelation for confirmation.
Classical Arabic is not a dead language like ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek. There are many resources to help you; ask Allah to guide you and explain to you. )Proof Qiblah
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhq1BDBG3ZsProof Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=i21uxpnjyXgSyncretism Rituals of Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jY_6d7KBewMay Allah increase the believers in knowledge.
Peace and blessings.
