Is Jerusalem the Qibla?

KDC501

Isn?t Bakka unknown (completely foreign) to Islamic scholars? Ask today's average Imam and they don?t even know where Bakka is. The majority of them ASSUME that it is an old name for the city of Mecca. The fact is there is absolutely NO concrete evidence to prove that Bakka is an old name for the city of Mecca. If you know someone who is an Imam go to them and ask them yourself. For those of you who have a copy of Yusef Ali?s translation of the Quran read the commentary of 396

http//www.quran4u.com/Tafsiraya/003%20Imran.htm

Sura 396 The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka

C422. Bakka same as Makkah, perhaps an older name. The foundation of the Ka'bah goes back to Abraham, but there are place associations in the sacred territories with the names of Adam and Eve. (R).

( Why isn?t he sure that Bakka is Mecca?)

Question for warner The above is a commentary of one the most respected Islamic scholars. Does Yusef Ali (who I assume you have heard about) seem to you like he knows where Bakka is? Isn?t he making an assumption? Doesn?t this prove that Bakka is foreign name or completely unknown to those you lived in Arabia?

Also the fact that Bakka is written in Arabic doesn?t mean that is (well was) originally an Arabic word.

For example if I wanted to write that I live in Toronto, Canada in Japanese I would write its Japanese equivalent. However if I wanted to SAY that I live in Toronto , Canada I would say Japanese for " I live in? ??. Toronto, Canada (in English)

The questions that you should be asking warner is who had first claim on the word Baaka (or better yet the sound of the word) Also why is this word a mystery to Islamic scholars and not to those of the previous scripture?

http//www.wrestedscriptures.com/a08islam/psalm84v6.html

? In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. This is to the southwest of Jerusalem and forms an approach route to the city. ?

God doesn?t make mistakes.

Note Bakka is not a foreign name or word to the people of the previous scriptures.

Question for Patanahi Does the Quran say in Arabic that the most distant mosque is in Jerusalem or did you assume that it is in Jerusalem? Sura 17 1

Peace

Kevin peace

Patanahi

Question for Patanahi Does the Quran say in Arabic that the most distant mosque is in Jerusalem or did you assume that it is in Jerusalem? Sura 17 1

I am trying to find out if there is a link between Masjid Al Aqsa (See Arabic verse 171 in Quran) and Masjid Al Aqsa located in Jerusalem (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque )? In other words, for 171, do we have to translate english equivalent of the Arabic word "Masjid Al Aqsa" actually mentioned in verse 171 as the distant mosque or should we take it as it is which would probably refer to the Masjid Al Aqsa located in Jerusalem (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque ).

raginggaijin

The questions that you should be asking warner is who had first claim on the word Baaka (or better yet the sound of the word) Also why is this word a mystery to Islamic scholars and not to those of the previous scripture?

http//www.wrestedscriptures.com/a08islam/psalm84v6.html

? In 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles the valley of Baka is a valley full of balsam bushes near the valley of Rephaim. This is to the southwest of Jerusalem and forms an approach route to the city. ?

God doesn?t make mistakes.

Note Bakka is not a foreign name or word to the people of the previous scriptures.

You are making an error in understanding the collection of Books called the Bible, however. This may be due to being new to the deen of Al-Islam and your past as a Christian.
The previous Books do not verify the Quran. The Quran verifies the previous Books.

Allah warns you about upholding the previous Books over what He revealed

"And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, confirming the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance.
And judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, and beware of them lest they tempt thee away from any of what God has sent down to thee. But if they turn their backs, know that God desires only to smite them for some sin they have committed; surely, many men are ungodly.
Is it the judgment of pagandom then that they are seeking? Yet who is fairer in judgment than God, for a people having sure faith?" Surah 548-50

The previous Books have been altered and tampered with.
Altering the word Surah 275, 279, 378, 446, 514-15, 7162

"Are you then so eager that they should believe you, seeing there is a party of them that heard God's word, and then tampered with it, and that after they had comprehended it, wittingly?" Surah 275
"So woe to those who write the Book with their hands, then say, 'This is from God,' that they may sell it for a little price; so woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for their earnings." Surah 279
"And there is a sect of them twist their tongues with the Book, that you may suppose it part of the Book, yet it is not part of the Book; and they say, 'It is from God,' yet it is not from God, and they speak falsehood against God, and that wittingly." Surah 378

The Quran gives description of the location of Masjid Al-Haram, and that location is Mecca. Proof is given throughout this thread from the Quran.

I follow only what Allah revealed, the word of an honored Messenger The Quran.

I am trying to find out if there is a link between Masjid Al Aqsa (See Arabic verse 171 in Quran) and Masjid Al Aqsa located in Jerusalem (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque )? In other words, for 171, do we have to translate english equivalent of the Arabic word "Masjid Al Aqsa" actually mentioned in verse 171 as the distant mosque or should we take it as it is which would probably refer to the Masjid Al Aqsa located in Jerusalem (see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Mosque ).

The link is in the ayats that follow Surah 171. They give the description of the Temple of the Bani Israel that was destroyed twice for their disobedience.

?And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Book 'You shall do corruption in the earth twice, and you shall ascend exceeding high.'
So, when the promise of the first of these came to pass, We sent against you servants of Ours, men of great might, and they went through the habitations, and it was a promise performed.
Then We gave back to you the turn to prevail over them, and We succoured you with wealth and children, and We made you a greater host.
'If you do good, it is your own souls you do good to, and if you do evil it is to them likewise.' Then, when the promise of the second came to pass, We sent against you Our servants to discountenance you, and to enter the Temple (almasjida), as they entered it the first time, and to destroy utterly that which they ascended to.? Surah 174-7

Which Temple was destroyed twice for the disobedience of the Bani Israel?
The Temple in Jerusalem, the precincts Allah has blessed as shown in Surah 171.

Muhammad (pbuh) did not know the Book nor faith until Allah revealed to him.

"Even so We have revealed to thee a Spirit of Our bidding. Thou knewest not what the Book was, nor belief; but We made it a light, whereby We guide whom We will of Our servants. And thou, surely thou shalt guide unto a straight path --" Surah 4252

I have created videos using the skills Allah has taught me that contain information on these topics. Insha'Allah, they are study references for those who study the Quran.
Don't take my word for it though. Double-check everything I say, confirm it, and follow only what Allah revealed. If you have a question in translation, return to the Arabic revelation for confirmation.
Classical Arabic is not a dead language like ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, or Koine Greek. There are many resources to help you; ask Allah to guide you and explain to you. )

Proof Qiblah
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhq1BDBG3Zs

Proof Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=i21uxpnjyXg

Syncretism Rituals of Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jY_6d7KBew

May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.

Peace and blessings.

shadowpuppet

The Quran verifies the previous Books.

In fact, the books which were cut from the Bible verify the Quran.
You might try reading Thomas or Peter's Apocalypse. Mind there is more than one way to interpret such texts.

And, seeing the direct text correlation along with the history of groups like the Gnostics and the Essenes, one begins to understand that, yes, it has been tampered with.
Stolen, in fact.

If you're sharp enough about it, you may even recognize the Dao.

Salaam.

MesMorial

The Qur?an was written in Arabic, and Muhammad was an Arabian (4144). ?His people? were therefore Arabs.

He was an Arab and was turned to a qiblah (direction of salaat) that he would like (2144). The Jews and Christians would NEVER agree with this qiblah (2145).

We know the Arab Muslims settled near the Sacred Mosque (92. If the Sacred Mosque were in Jerusalem, there would be so many ?idolaters? around that they could not be kept away from it (since it was their place!).

Also, the place where the Muslims settled was the place that they were expelled from (913). Their flight is in 9100. Therefore the qiblah should be in Mecca.

The Kaaba is referred to as the ?sacred House? in 52 and other places. The Quraish (an Arabian tribe) were to serve the Lord of THIS House (1063).

raginggaijin

Also, the place where the Muslims settled was the place that they were expelled from (913). Their flight is in 9100. Therefore the qiblah should be in Mecca.

The place the Prophet (pbuh) and the believers were expelled from was not Mecca. They settled in Mecca, but where expelled from Midian, aka Nabatean Petra in the Byzantine empire.

?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857

The town that expelled the Prophet (pbuh) was destroyed
?How many a city that was stronger in might than thy town which has expelled thee have We destroyed! And there was no helper for them.? Surah 4713
?Indeed they were near to startling thee from the land, to expel thee from it, and then they would have tarried after thee only a little ?? Surah 1776
?It is He who expelled from their habitations the unbelievers among the People of the Book at the first mustering. You did not think that they would go forth, and they thought that their fortresses would defend them against God; then God came upon them from whence they had not reckoned, and He cast terror into their hearts as they destroyed their houses with their own hands, and the hands of the believers; therefore take heed, you who have eyes!
Had God not prescribed dispersal for them, He would have chastised them in this world; and there awaits them in the world to come the chastisement of the Fire.
That is because they made a breach with God and His Messenger; and whosoever makes a breach with God, God is terrible in retribution.? Surah 592-4
?We already seized them with the chastisement, yet they abased not themselves to their Lord nor were they humble;? Surah 2376

There was no conflict within Mecca.
"If the unbelievers had fought you, they would have turned their backs, and then found neither protector nor helper; the way of God (Sunnata Allahi), as in the past before, and thou shalt never find any changing the way of God (lisunnati Allahi).
It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do.
They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Holy Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account (that God may admit into His mercy whom He will), had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement. " Surah 4822-25

The believers inherited their lands
?and We will surely make you to dwell in the land after them -- that, for him who fears My station and fears My threat.'? Surah 1414
?And He bequeathed upon you their lands, their habitations, and their possessions, and a land you never trod. God is powerful over everything.? Surah 3327

Allah does not change His Sunnah.

"God has struck a similitude a city that was secure, at rest, its provision coming to it easefully from every place, then it was unthankful for the blessings of God; so God let it taste the garment of hunger and of fear, for the things that they were working.
There came indeed to them a Messenger from amongst them, but they cried him lies; so they were seized by the chastisement while they were evildoers." Surah 16112-113

"How many a city We have destroyed that flourished in insolent ease! Those are their dwelling-places, undwelt in after them, except a little; Ourselves are the inheritors.
Yet thy Lord never destroyed the cities until He sent in their mother-city a Messenger, to recite Our signs unto them; and We never destroyed the cities, save that their inhabitants were evildoers." Surah 2858-59

"And when We desire to destroy a city, We command its men who live at ease, and they commit ungodliness therein, then the Word is realized against it, and We destroy it utterly." Surah 1716

"Why was there never a city that believed, and its belief profited it? -- Except the people of Jonah; when they believed, We removed from them the chastisement of degradation in this present life, and We gave unto them enjoyment for a time." Surah 1098

"There is a ban upon any city that We have destroyed; they shall not return" Surah 2195

"Never a city We destroyed, but it had warners" Surah 26208

If Muhammad (pbuh) was from Mecca, then that city would be destroyed.
Allah does not change His Sunnah.

"Now; if the hypocrites do not give over, and those in whose hearts there is sickness and they that make commotion in the city (almadeenati), We shall assuredly urge thee against them and then they will be thy neighbours there only a little; cursed they shalt be, and wheresoever they are come upon they shall be seized and slaughtered all -- God's way (Sunnata Allahi) with those who passed away before; and thou shall find no changing the way of God (lisunnati Allahi). Surah 3360-62

"They have sworn by God the most earnest oaths that if a warner came to them, they would be more rightly guided than any one of the nations; but when a warner came to them, it increased them only in aversion, waxing proud in the land, and devising evil; but evil devising encompasses only those who do it; So do they expect anything but the way of the ancients (sunnata al-awwaleena)? And thou shalt never find any changing the way of God (lisunnati Allahi), and thou shalt never find any altering the way of God (lisunnati Allahi)." Surah 3542-43

May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.

Peace.

warner

Peace Raging

The city of Petra seem to be a very good candidate for the city from which the Messenger got expelled from. Layth shares the same view as well.

But why do you think it is to Mecca and not Medina(mentioned as Yathrib in the Quran) to which the Messenger emigrated ?

warner

Peace KDC 501

While credit should go to Yusuf Ali for translating the Quran into English, at a time when, many such translations were not available. But I don't treat him as one of the most respected Islamic scholars. He is possibly a great sunni scholar.

Please see what he says about Bakka,

C422. Bakka same as Makkah, perhaps an older name. The foundation of the Ka'bah goes back to Abraham, but there are place associations in the sacred territories with the names of Adam and Eve. (R).

Check the bold print. He is 100% certain that Bakka is Mecca. IOW he has no doubt that the place Mecca is as same as Bakka. His "perhaps" seems to be only about whether its a new name , old name or an contemporary ?

In the same way any sunni ulema will tell you bakka is same as mecca.

You must check the original Hebrew or Aramaic bibles to check whether it is Baka , bakka or Bica ? We will be on a wild goose chase with the English translation.

KDC501

Peace KDC 501

While credit should go to Yusuf Ali for translating the Quran into English, at a time when, many such translations were not available. But I don't treat him as one of the most respected Islamic scholars. He is possibly a great sunni scholar.

Please see what he says about Bakka,

C422. Bakka same as Makkah, perhaps an older name. The foundation of the Ka'bah goes back to Abraham, but there are place associations in the sacred territories with the names of Adam and Eve. (R).

Check the bold print. He is 100% certain that Bakka is Mecca. IOW he has no doubt that the place Mecca is as same as Bakka. His "perhaps" seems to be only about whether its a new name , old name or an contemporary ?

In the same way any sunni ulema will tell you bakka is same as mecca.

You must check the original Hebrew or Aramaic bibles to check whether it is Baka , bakka or Bica ? We will be on a wild goose chase with the English translation.

Dear Warner,

Yusef Ali is one of the most respected scholars who follows hadiths. And it is from the hadiths and other sectarian beliefs where the majority (if not everyone) gets the idea that Mecca is Bakka when the Quran does not say so. The fact is that Yusef Ali doesn?t know whether or not Bakka is an older name for Mecca (hence the use of the phrase ?perhaps an older name? . The ONLY reason why he says that Bakka is the same as Makkah is because he is a sunni and follows hadiths.

I believe that the city Mecca and the word Bakka only became related to one another till after the Quran was revealed and after people started to ?change there religion? http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecca

And if you do follow the Quran alone you know what sort of changes I?m talking about.

And yes both words in the Bible and the Quran do sound the same. However as I said before if I wanted to say that ?I live in Toronto Canada? in Japanese then the phrase ?I live in ? would be said in Japanese and the words ?Toronto , Canada? I would say in English. What I?m trying point out to you is that just because the word ?Bakka? is written in Arabic it doesn?t mean that it was originally an Arabic word.

At any rate the one thing that you and I can both agree with since you and I both comprehend what we read is that Yusef Ali doesn?t know or can?t prove that Bakka is an older name for Mecca.

Question If I was absolutely 100% sure that Bakka is an older name for Mecca would I say ? It is perhaps an older name for Mecca? ?

raginggaijin

Question If I was absolutely 100% sure that Bakka is an older name for Mecca would I say ? It is perhaps an older name for Mecca? ?

Yes. Especially when you uphold teachings outside of the Quran as a source of knowledge.

Knowing the Quran is the Truth from Allah, who does not make mistakes nor forgets, I can say with certainty based on the description given in the Quran Bakka is an older name for Mecca.
As well, knowing the Quran verifies the Truth in previous Books - an not vice versa - I can use the Quran to prove pilgrimage occurred to Masjid Al-Haram prior to the creation of Masjid Al-Aqsa by the revelation given to David (pbuh), the Prophets in the Tribes (pbut), and the actions of Moses and Aaron (pbut).

The description is in the Quran. You won't be asked what I do or believe. You won't be asked what Yusuf Ali did or believed. You will only be asked what you do and believe.
Study the Quran diligently and do not depend on my opinion, or anyone else's for that matter. Turn to Allah only as your Guide. He explains the Quran.

"Move not thy tongue with it to hasten it; Ours it is to gather it, and to recite it.
So, when We recite it, follow thou its recitation.
Then Ours it is to explain it." Surah 7516-19

Peace.

KDC501

Yes. Especially when you uphold teachings outside of the Quran as a source of knowledge.

Knowing the Quran is the Truth from Allah, who does not make mistakes nor forgets, I can say with certainty based on the description given in the Quran Bakka is an older name for Mecca.
As well, knowing the Quran verifies the Truth in previous Books - an not vice versa - I can use the Quran to prove pilgrimage occurred to Masjid Al-Haram prior to the creation of Masjid Al-Aqsa by the revelation given to David (pbuh), the Prophets in the Tribes (pbut), and the actions of Moses and Aaron (pbut).

The description is in the Quran. You won't be asked what I do or believe. You won't be asked what Yusuf Ali did or believed. You will only be asked what you do and believe.
Study the Quran diligently and do not depend on my opinion, or anyone else's for that matter. Turn to Allah only as your Guide. He explains the Quran.

"Move not thy tongue with it to hasten it; Ours it is to gather it, and to recite it.
So, when We recite it, follow thou its recitation.
Then Ours it is to explain it." Surah 7516-19

Peace.

Brother raginggaijin

The reason why I used Yusef Ali as an example is because he was well respected Islamic scholar who followed hadiths and it from the hadiths and other sectarian teachings that people blindly believe that 'Bakka' is an older name for 'Mecca'. So far you have failed to bring clear proof that Baaka is Mecca. You are also giving me the strongest impression that if you had the chance that you would rewrite the Quran and replace the word 'Baaka' with 'Mecca' and also replace 'almasjidi al-aqsa ' mentioned in Sura 171 with the temple of Jerusalem.

Peace,

Kevin

raginggaijin

Peace Raging
The city of Petra seem to be a very good candidate for the city from which the Messenger got expelled from. Layth shares the same view as well.

Insha'Allah, this will show why I believe what I believe, and to support Petra as the city that expelled the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and the believers.

Midian (madyana) in Quran Surah 785, 970, 1184, 1194-95, 2040, 2244, 2822-23
City (almadeenati) in Quran Surah 9101, 9120, 3360, 3620, 5911, 638
Ad and Thamud Surah 765-69, 773-78, 1580, 2748-52, 4621, 5350, 5419, 696-7, 897-8

"The dwellers in The Rock (alhijri) cried lies to the Envoys.
We brought them. Our signs, and they turned away from them.
They were hewing the mountains into houses, therein dwelling securely;
and the Cry seized them in the morning;
that they earned did not avail them." Surah 1580-84

Hegra
http//www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200704/images/new.pieces/ARM6-02-Nabataean_lg.jpg
http//www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200704/new.pieces.of.mada.in.salih.s.puzzle.htm
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mada%27in_Saleh
http//madainsaleh.net/madainsaleh.aspx
http//www.zubeyr-kureemun.com/SaudiArabia/MadainSaleh.htm

"And remember when He appointed you successors after Ad, and lodged you in the land, taking to yourselves castles of its plains, and hewing its mountains into houses. Remember God's bounties, and do not mischief in the earth, working corruption.'
Said the Council of those of his people who waxed proud to those that were abased, to those of them who believed, 'Do you know that Salih is an Envoy from his Lord?' They said, 'In the Message he has been sent with we are believers.'
Said the ones who waxed proud, 'As for us, we are unbelievers in the thing in which you believe.'
So they hamstrung the She-camel and turned in disdain from the commandment of their Lord, saying, 'O Salih, bring us that thou promisest us, if thou art an Envoy.'
So the earthquake seized them, and morning found them in their habitation fallen prostrate." Surah 774-78

"and Thamood, who hollowed the rocks in the valley (bialwadi )," Surah 899

?And Ad, and Thamood -- it has become clear to you from their dwelling-places; and satan decked out fair to them their works, and barred them from the way, though they saw clearly.? Surah 2938

?Is it not a guidance to them, how many generations We destroyed before them in whose dwelling-places they walk? Surely in that are signs for men possessing reason.? Surah 20128

?Is it not a guidance to them, how many generations We destroyed before them in whose dwelling-places they walk? Surely in that are signs; what, will they not hear?
Have they not seen how We drive the water to the dry land and bring forth crops therewith whereof their cattle and themselves eat? What, will they not see?? Surah 3226-27

?And warn mankind of the day when the chastisement comes on them, And those who did evil shall say, 'Our Lord, defer us to a near term, and we will answer Thy call, and follow the Messengers.' 'Ah, but did you not swear aforetime there should be no removing for you?
And you dwelt in the dwelling-places of those who wronged themselves, and it became clear to you how We did with them, and how We struck similitudes for you.? Surah 1444-45

As successors settled in the land, the lands of Midian had three Messengers Shuaib, Moses, and Muhammad (pbut).
Ancient Midian is near Sinai, near the Red Sea, and was part of Egypt during the time of Moses and Aaron (pbut).
The lands of Nabataen-Petra contained Midian, as well as Medina, Ad, Thamud, and the former location of Lot's people. There is controversy surrounding the location of Mount Sinai, so ignoring them and upholding the description given in the Quran we can find where the Prophet and the believers were exiled from.

"And We gave Moses the Book, after that We had destroyed the former generations, to be examples and a guidance and a mercy, that haply so they might remember.
Thou wast not upon the western side when We decreed to Moses the commandment, nor wast thou of those witnessing; but We raised up generations, and long their lives continued. Neither wast thou a dweller among the Midianites, reciting to them Our signs; but We were sending Messengers.
Thou wast not upon the side of the Mount when We called; but for a mercy from thy Lord, that thou mayest warn a people to whom no warner came before thee, and that haply they may remember.
Else, did an affliction visit them for that their own hands have forwarded then they might say, 'Our Lord, why didst Thou not send a Messenger to us that we might follow Thy signs and so be among the believers?'
Yet when the truth came to them from Ourselves, they said, 'Why has he not been given the like of that Moses was given?' But they, did they not disbelieve also in what Moses was given aforetime? They said, 'A pair of sorceries mutually supporting each other.' They said, 'We disbelieve both.'
Say 'Bring a Book from God that gives better guidance than these, and follow it, if you speak truly.'
Then if they do not answer thee, know that they are only following their caprices; and who is further astray than he who follows his caprice without guidance from God? Surely God guides not the people of the evildoers." Surah 2843-50

http//www.konkyo.org/images/exmap2.gif
http//www.go2petra.com/IMAGES/mapkingdom.gif
http//images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/07/1/2/2/24416152846869550.png
http//www.netours.com/images/stories/jordan/jordan_desert/arabia_late_trade_600.jpg
http//www.bible.ca/archeology/bible-archeology-exodus-kadesh-barnea-petra-nabataean-trade-routes-50bc.jpg
http//www.amnh.org/ology/features/petra/images/map3_enlarge.jpg
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Egypt_1450_BC.svg
http//www.bible.ca/archeology/maps-bible-archeology-exodus-route-kadesh-barnea-thomas-kitchin-1794ad.jpg

"and God most surely helped you at Badr, when you were utterly abject. So fear God, and haply you Will be thankful." Surah 3123

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hala-%27l_Badr
http//maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=27.25%C2%B0%20N%2C%2037.235%C2%B0&cp=19&qe=MjcuMjWwIE4sIDM3LjIzNbAgRQ&qesig=EGsa6IMg1mDNxREJWBbqjA&pkc=AFgZ2tlnBGmD3Xw6voGM04MYMTbYDLr7a3MGYyLckvWE-r5dHqx8-5w7jL9WRvOOVI3RMUokPvR76J26UVpEZuSvvDAzXsFs3Q&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1582&bih=735&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=il

"And to Midian their brother Shuaib; he said, 'O my people, serve God! You have no god other than He; there has now come to you a clear sign from your Lord. So fill up the measure and the balance, and diminish not the goods of the people; and do not corruption in the land, after it has been set right; that is better for you, if you are believers." Surah 785

"And when Our command came, We delivered Shuaib and those who believed with him by a mercy from Us, and the evildoers were seized by the Cry, and morning found them in their habitations fallen prostrate as if they had never dwelt there 'So away with Midian, even as Thamood was done away!'" Surah 1195

"when thy sister went out, saying, "Shall I point you to one to have charge of him?" So We returned thee to thy mother that she might rejoice, and not sorrow. Then thou slewest; a living soul, and We delivered thee out of grief, and We tried thee with many trials. Many years among the people of Midian thou didst sojourn, then camest hither, Moses, according to a decree." Surah 2040

"and the men of Midian; to Moses also they cried lies. And I respited the unbelievers, then I seized them; and how was My horror!" Surah 2240

The area known as Sinai was part of the Egyptian empire
http//www.iziko.org.za/sh/resources/egypt/images/map_e3_l.gif

Petra is the capital - mother city - of Nabatean Petra.

?This is a Book We have sent down, blessed and confirming that which was before it, and for thee to warn the Mother of Cities (omma alqura) and those about her; and those who believe in the world to come believe in it, and watch over their prayers.? Surah 692

?And so We have revealed to thee an Arabic Koran, that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities (omma alqura) and those who dwell about it, and that thou mayest warn of the Day of Gathering, wherein is no doubt -- a party in Paradise, and a party in the Blaze.? Surah 427

But why do you think it is to Mecca and not Medina(mentioned as Yathrib in the Quran) to which the Messenger emigrated ?

According to the Quran, the Prophet and believers lived in Yathrib during their exile, as their homes were threatened by the disbelievers. The people of the city and the Arabs were tasked to follow Muhammad (pbuh) and the believers in their efforts against the disbelievers, but many were hypocrites and stayed behind.

?And some of the Bedouins (al-aAArabi) who dwell around you are hypocrites; and some of the people of the City (almadeenati) are grown bold in hypocrisy. Thou knowest them not; but We know them, and We shall chastise them twice, then they will be returned to a mighty chastisement.? Surah 9101

?It is not for the people of the City (almadeenati) and for the Bedouins (al-AAArabi) who dwell around them to stay behind Allah's Messenger, and to prefer their lives to his; that is because they are smitten neither by thirst, nor fatigue, nor emptiness in the way of Allah, neither tread they any tread enraging the unbelievers, nor gain any gain from any enemy, but a righteous deed is thereby written to their account; Allah leaves not to waste the wage of the good-doers.? Surah 9120

"And when a party of them said, 'O people of Yathrib, there is no abiding here for you, therefore return!' And a part of them Were asking leave of the Prophet, saying, 'Our houses are exposed'; yet they were not exposed; they desired only to flee." Surah 3313

"Were it a gain near at hand, and an easy journey, they would have followed thee; but the distance was too far for them. Still they will swear by God, 'Had we been able, we would have gone out with you,' so destroying their souls; and God knows that they are truly liars." Surah 942

"So, if God returns thee to a party of them and they ask leave of thee to go forth, say 'You shall not go forth with me ever, and you shall not fight with me any enemy. You were well-pleased to tarry the first time, so now tarry with those behind.'" Surah 983

I think the Prophet (pbut) and the believers settled in Mecca - along with other areas given to them by Allah - because the Quran describes where they settled.

?And He brought down those of the People of the Book who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror in their hearts; some you slew, some you made captive. And He bequeathed upon you their lands, their habitations, and their possessions, and a land you never trod. Allah is powerful over everything.? Surah 3326-27

"?They say, 'Should we follow the guidance with thee, we shall be snatched from our land.' Have We not established for them a sanctuary secure, to which are collected the fruits of everything, as a provision from Us? But most of them know not.? Surah 2857

The Prophet Muhammad and the believers were kept out of Mecca until Allah decreed they would enter it, and they did so without violence.

"It is He who restrained their hands from you, and your hands from them, within Mecca, after that He made you victors over them. God sees the things you do.
They are the ones who disbelieved, and barred you from the Holy Mosque and the offering, detained so as not to reach its place of sacrifice. If it had not been for certain men believers and certain women believers whom you knew not, lest you should trample them, and there befall you guilt unwittingly on their account (that God may admit into His mercy whom He will), had they been separated clearly, then We would have chastised the unbelievers among them with a painful chastisement.
When the unbelievers set in their hearts fierceness, the fierceness of pagandom, then God sent down His Shechina upon His Messenger and the believers, and fastened to them the word of godfearing to which they have better right and are worthy of; and God has' knowledge of everything.
God has indeed fulfilled the vision He vouchsafed to His Messenger truly 'You shall enter the Holy Mosque, if God wills, in security, your heads shaved, your hair cut short, not fearing.' He knew what you knew not, and appointed ere that a nigh victory." Surah 4824-26

These are my beliefs based off of study of the Quran.
Study the Quran diligently, and do not depend on my opinion. Ask Allah to guide you. He explains the Quran.

May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.

Peace.

raginggaijin

You are also giving me the strongest impression that if you had the chance that you would rewrite the Quran and replace the word 'Baaka' with 'Mecca' and also replace 'almasjidi al-aqsa ' mentioned in Sura 171 with the temple of Jerusalem.

You add slander to your burden of sins.
You do not know me, you do not know the unseen, and you are not possessor of knowledge as to what I would or would not do. You speak conjecture and you ascribe that I would tamper with the revelation of the Quran in the same manner the People of the Book tampered with their revelations. You speak a manifest calumny.

I seek refuge in Allah from the whispers of accursed satans. Surah 7200, 4056

"Those who dispute concerning the signs of God, without any authority come to them, in their breasts is only pride, that they shall never attain. So seek thou refuge in God; surely He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing." Surah 4056

Since you cannot speak to me without insult, insinuation, or invalidation, I see no reason to continue speaking to you.

Bring proof or keep silent. It's wiser.
Until then, this conversation is over.

I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant. Surah 267

Peace.

Jafar

Let's reexamined by what does it mean by "Qibla"..

The common / general understanding is that "Qibla" is the 'direction to face for prayer'...
Which I believe is a fallacy / a mistake.
Given the earth has a round shape.. and let's assume that everyone should face Jerusalem or Mekka for prayer..
For somebody who is located in Hawaii.. both Jerusalem and Mekka will be more or less right under his/her feet, as thus to really face Jerusalem or Mekka he/she need to face down straight to the ground.

Any thoughts?

Salam / Peace

KDC501

You add slander to your burden of sins.

WOW! I didn?t know that having just an impression of someone was committing slander. I always thought that slander meant falsely accusing someone of something. Please tell me that English is not your native language or that you drank too much coffee today.

raginggaijin

WOW! I didn?t know that having just an impression of someone was committing slander. I always thought that slander meant falsely accusing someone of something. Please tell me that English is not your native language or that you drank too much coffee today.

Slander is a malicious, false, and defamatory statement or report. Stating you believe I would change the Quran is a malicious statement; defaming my character as you see me as someone who would alter the Quran - an act the People of the Book are guilty of. There was nothing proper or in the nature of good-will in your statement. And here you quibble about your words seeking to defend your statement.
If you have no proof, as you yourself repeated it was an 'impression', why do you make the statement? Why do you utter that which is not true?

And yet you uphold the teachings of a man who removed two ayats from the Quran.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600295.msg279967#msg279967
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600295.msg279846#msg279846
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602492.msg279594#msg279594
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602492.msg279550#msg279550
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9602492.msg279519#msg279519

I have been studying the submitters movement for a few years now. And I have come to the conclusion that Dr. Rashad Kahlifa was indeed a messenger of God.

Yet you ignore the proof that Rashad Khalifa is not a Messenger of Allah.

Rashad Khalifa claimed he was the Messenger of the Covenant, using Malachi 31 as proof. However, the Messenger of the Covenant is named in Malachi 45.
"See, I will send you the prophet ELIJAH before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."
Elijah, known as Elias (pbuh), is spoken of in the Quran and the Bible. Peace and blessings on all the Prophets of Allah.
Surah 685, 37123-130, I Kings 1820-40
Rashad Khalifa is not Elias.
?And certainly We have made clear for men in this Quran every kind of description, but most men consent naught save denying.? Surah 1789

Followers of Rashad Khalifa ignore Surah 4142.
"Falsehood shall not come to it from before it nor from behind it; a revelation from the Wise, the Praised One." Surah 4142
Rashad denied hadith as guidance yet he turned to hadith to base his claim on corruption in the Quran. Our Creator clearly states no falsehood will ever enter the Quran, in the past or in the future, before it nor behind it.
Allah condemns hadiths Surah 7185, 12111, 316, 456, 5234, 6844, 7750

Yet you say

Now I know that some of the things that he did were contradictory of the Quran but one has to understand that he was still LEARNING the Quran.
At the time of his death some of the submitters in Masjid Tucson started to use his footnotes and appendices for guidance instead of continuing his research of the Quran which he never completed.

How can a Messenger still be learning the Quran if he was a Messenger of Allah?

Allah does not make mistakes, nor does He forget. Surah 482, 2052

If it comes from any other than Allah, you will find in it many discrepancies. There are many discrepancies in the teachings of Rashad Khalifa.

Rashad stated he was the Messiah the Jews were waiting for, and the Mahdi the Islamists were waiting for, but according to you he did NOT complete his work?

Proof of Rashad's claims of being the Messiah/Mahdi
http//www.quranalone.com/SP/57_1989_09.pdf
http//www.submission.org/millennium/mahdi.html

He made prophecy that did not come true
http//www.quranalone.com/SP/64_1990_03.pdf

He made prophecy of when the Day of Judgment comes. Page 691, Appendix 25 in 'Quran - The Final Testament' translated by Rashad Khalifa.
Only Allah has knowledge of the Hour. Surah 4361-66, 7227

The messenger spoken in 337 and 381 could have never been Muhammad since he took the SAME COVENANT as the other Messenger's.

Muhammad was the Messenger who was given the Quran to verify (musaddiqun) previous Books Surah 381, 4252, 548, 241, 289, 291, 2101, 303, 692

"And when (Wa-ith) God took (akhatha Allahu) Compact of the Prophets (meethaqa alnnabiyyeena) 'That I have given you of Book and Wisdom; then there shall come to you a Messenger verifying (musaddiqun) what is with you -- you shall believe in him and you shall help him; do you agree?' He said. 'And do you take My load on you on that condition?' They said, 'We do agree.' God said, 'Bear witness so, and I shall be with you among the witnesses.'" Surah 381

"Wa-ith akhatha Allahu meethaqa alnnabiyyeena lama ataytukum min kitabin wahikmatin thumma jaakum rasoolun musaddiqun lima maAAakum latu/minunna bihi walatansurunnahu qala aaqrartum waakhathtum AAala thalikum isree qaloo aqrarna qala faishhadoo waana maAAakum mina alshshahideena" Surah 381

This Compact - promise, agreement - is with those who inherited the Book, for the Messengers of Allah verified the Book that was with them.

"And when God took compact (meethaqa) with those who had been given the Book 'You shall make it clear unto the people, and not conceal it.' But they rejected it behind their backs and sold it for a small price -- how evil was that their selling!" Surah 3187

The Quran verifies previous Books.

"And We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, verifying (musaddiqan) the Book that was before it, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their caprices, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one of you We have appointed a right way and an open road. If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance." Surah 548

"This is a Book We have sent down, blessed and verifying (musaddiqu) that which was before it, and for thee to warn the Mother of Cities and those about her; and those who believe in the world to come believe in it, and watch over their prayers." Surah 692

"He has sent down upon thee the Book with the truth, verifying (musaddiqan) what was before it, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel." Surah 33

"When there has come to them a Messenger (rasoolun) from God verifying (musaddiqun) what was with them, a party of them that were given the Book reject the Book of God behind their backs, as though they knew not," Surah 2101

"And believe in that I have sent down, verifying (musaddiqan) that which is with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me." Surah 241

Surah 337-8 speaks of the Covenant and Compacts taken by those sent the Messengers; an agreement Allah takes with all who submit their will to Him

"And remember God's blessing upon you, and His compact (wameethaqahu) which He made with you when you said, 'We have heard and we obey. And fear you God; surely God knows the thoughts in the breasts." Surah 57

"And when We took Compact (meethaqahum) of the Prophets, and from thee, and from Noah, and Abraham, Moses, and Isa, Mary's son; We took from them a solemn compact (meethaqan) that He might question the truthful concerning their truthfulness; and He has prepared for the unbelievers a painful chastisement." Surah 337-8

Covenant and Compact of the Book and Prophets Surah 227, 263, 283-84, 377, 381, 3187, 57, 512-14, 570, 6152, 7169, 1320, 1325, 1691, 1695, 1734, 1978, 3315, 3323, 4810, 578
Compact/agreement (meethaqan) 421, 490, 492, 856, 872, 1266, 1280

"And We took compact (meethaqa)with the Children of Israel, and We sent Messengers (rusulan) to them. Whensoever there came to them a Messenger (rasoolun) with that their souls had not desire for, some they cried lies to, and some they slew." Surah 570

"And there succeeded after them a succession who inherited the Book, taking the chance goods of this lower world, and saying, 'It will be forgiven us'; and if chance goods the like of them come to them, they will take them. Has not the compact of the Book (meethaqu alkitabi) been taken touching them, that they should say concerning God nothing but the truth? And they have studied what is in it; and the Last Abode is better for those who are godfearing. Do you not understand?" Surah 7169

"such as break the covenant of God after its solemn binding (meethaqihi), and such as cut what God has commanded should be joined, and such as do corruption in the land -- they shall be the losers." Surah 287

"And those who break the covenant of God after His compact (meethaqihi), and who snap what God has commanded to be joined, and who work corruption in the earth -- theirs shall be the curse, and theirs the Evil Abode." Surah 1325

"How is it with you, that you believe not in God seeing that the Messenger is calling you to believe in your Lord, and He has taken compact (meethaqakum) with you, if you are believers?" Surah 578

"God took compact (meethaqa)with the Children of Israel; and We raised up from among them twelve chieftains. And God said, 'I am with you. Surely, if you perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and believe in My Messengers and succour them, and lend to God a good loan, I will acquit you of your evil deeds, and I will admit you to gardens underneath which rivers flow. So whosoever of you thereafter disbelieves, surely he has gone astray from the right way. "
So for their breaking their compact (meethaqahum) We cursed them and made their hearts hard, they perverting words from their meanings; and they have forgotten a portion of that they were reminded of; and thou wilt never cease to light upon some act of treachery on their part, except a few of them. Yet pardon them, and forgive; surely God loves the good-doers.
And with those who say 'We are Christians' We took compact (meethaqahum); and they have forgotten a portion of that they were reminded of. So We have stirred up among them enmity and hatred, till the Day of Resurrection; and God will assuredly tell them of the things they wrought." Surah 513-14

"So, for their breaking the compact (meethaqahum), and disbelieving in the signs of God, and slaying the Prophets without right, and for their saying, 'Our hearts are uncircumcised' -- nay, but God sealed them for their unbelief, so they believe not, except a few --" Surah 4155

Allah is clear; those who write something and say it is from Allah, when it is not from Allah, are Zalimun (alththalimeena); wicked, unjust, evil doers. Surah 2174-176, 394, 693, 625
?Then whoever fabricates a lie against Allah after this, these it is that are the unjust.? Surah 394

If Allah can teach a white, Scot/Irish-American who was raised on a farm how to read the Arabic revelation to confirm (saddaqat) the Truth, and to rely on Him alone to explain the Quran, then no one has any excuse.

Allah is the best guidance, Allah explains Surah 373, 426, 487, 3923, 4144, 456. 5417,22,32,40, 5675-81, 7516-19, 7750, 1035, 73, 2779, 333, 1689

We are called upon to be witnesses of Al-Islam, giving the good news and warning of the Day of Judgement Surah 9122, 2278, 353-4, 3523, 361-4, 6114
But we are not Messengers.

Follow only what Allah revealed, the teachings of Muhammad, the Quran Surah 299, 73, 7157, 7203-204, 864, 332, 1736,1827-28, 159, 2848-49, 3529, 496, 5417,22,32,40, 8521-22, 961, 981-8
?O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and such of the believers as follow you." Surah 864

Study the Quran diligently, and be not dependent on my opinion. Only Allah is Guide, Friend to the believers.
Men of understanding Surah 2121, 37, 3918, 2179, 2197, 2269, 313, 3190, 5100, 12111, 1319, 1452, 1676, 2054, 20128, 2935, 3022, 3528, 3829, 3843, 399, 4054, 5120, 5913, 6510, 895

"Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed and we follow the apostle, so write us down with those who bear witness." Surah 353

Pray for guidance.
Seek assistance through patience and prayer Surah 245, 2153, 2186

If you have something of substance to share, or proof to support your beliefs, please bring them forth. I weary of the veiled insults and insinuations. Let us speak good words to each other, or not speak at all. )

Peace.

Layth

Salam Warner,

Sorry for my late reply.

If I read your post correctly, you and I are in agreement on the meaning of "Qibla".

warner

Peace Raging

Correct me if I am wrong, I just got this impression that you avoided identifying the two structures (as mentioned by you) Masjid ul Haram and Masjid ul Aqsa and their respective locations.

Also while you kept on insisting it is to Mecca the Messenger migrated from Petra/Midian, once I brought up Medina/Yathrib above, you have changed your position to say that the Messenger settled in Yathrib also.

It will be great if you could offer relevant reasoning along with the verses you may sight since just mentioning the verses alone does not offer answer to the issue at discussion.

raginggaijin

Peace Raging

Correct me if I am wrong, I just got this impression that you avoided identifying the two structures (as mentioned by you) Masjid ul Haram and Masjid ul Aqsa and their respective locations.

You are wrong; don't go by impressions. Go by what is stated.
I have given numerous proofs that show where I believe Masjid Al-Haram and Masjid Al-Aqsa are located. Have you read everything I have posted and/or watched the videos I made?
I cannot believe you are asking this question when I state clearly I believe Masjid Al-Haram is in Mecca and Masjid Al-Aqsa is in Jerusalem, repeatedly.

Also while you kept on insisting it is to Mecca the Messenger migrated from Petra/Midian, once I brought up Medina/Yathrib above, you have changed your position to say that the Messenger settled in Yathrib also.

Go back and re-read. The Prophet (pbuh) and the believers settled in Mecca, after the conflict with the believers.
Mecca is not the place where the Prophet and the believers were exiled from.
Where would the Prophet and believers go while warring against the People of the Book and the hypocrites?
Where would the Prophet and believers live in between entering Masjid Al-Haram and their exile from Petra?
Where did they settle is where they ended up staying. Where did they finally settle?

It will be great if you could offer relevant reasoning along with the verses you may sight since just mentioning the verses alone does not offer answer to the issue at discussion.

What more reason than the proofs given in the Quran? Do you want me to explain the Quran to you, or is it unclear why I believe what I believe.

You asked about Yathrib, I answered. Again, leave impressions behind and go by what is said.

I'm not a guide, nor am I a guardian. I am only showing why I believe what I believe, based on the Quran. You are more than welcome not to believe as I do. I will not be asked what you do.
Study the Quran diligently and do not depend on my opinion. Allah is Guide, Friend to the believers.

Peace.

warner

Peace Raging

I knew for years the Messenger did not get expelled from Mecca, since he never lived there anyway.

I believe Masjid Al-Haram is in Mecca and Masjid Al-Aqsa is in Jerusalem, repeatedly.

What is your explanation of verse 171 ? The structure known as Masjid ul Aqsa in Jerusalem today, was built few decades after the Messenger.
Is Al masjidul Haram the outer walls and minaret around the black cubic structure in Mecca ?

Why do you keep quoting 2857 to highlight "secure sanctuary" ? What is the secure sanctuary ?

Are you saying the Messenger after leaving Petra/ Midian lived in Yathrib , fought a war or two there against the disbelievers, but since there was infighting between the believers in Yathrib, left to Mecca ?

Your base your hypothesis that "Mecca is not the city from which the Messneger got expelled from" based on the premise that Mecca did not get destroyed. IOW if Mecca expelled the Messenger it should have got destroyed.

Normally according to the Quran when a city expells a Messenger a calamity strikes that city and the disbelievers are punished. This fact alone is not sufficient to justify your above claim of Mecca, since,' if believers were living in that city among the disbelievers then God will not destroy that city.