Lost Salafi Here

[raginggaijin]

I see you've preempted my question about the distinction between your mode of prayer and the mainstream one. You contend that genuflections are not a part of your salat, but does the Quran not enjoin that in the process of salat one should bow?

Do you bow down to prostrate, or do you collapse onto the floor? P
But seriously, take a look at the ayats from the Quran given for the positions. Allah explains the Quran.
Take a look at Surah 343

"Ya maryamu oqnutee lirabbiki waosjudee wairkaAAee maAAa alrrakiAAeena" Surah 343
"O Marium! keep to obedience to your Lord and humble (waosjudee) yourself, and bow down (wairkaAAee) with those who bow (alrrakiAAeena)." Surah 343

In comparison to 2125, 9112, 2226, 2277, and 4829, where 'rakat' comes before 'sujud'. Islamists strive to show a pattern that follows the teachings of the Jews and Zoroastrians and Roman Catholics, making a time of study and remembrance into a vacuous ritual not taught in any Book revealed by Allah.
If you don't believe me, go to Amazon.com and buy 'To Pray As A Jew' by Rabbi Hayim Donin, which details the positions, times, and even includes 19 phrases to memorize and utter. All taught from the Babylonian Talmud. This was adopted from the corrupted Zoroastrian teachings of Babylon, during the rule of Nebuchadnezzar. The Zoroastrians still practice their prayer - the Persian word is 'Namaz' - to this very day

Zoroastrian worship
http//heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/worship/index.htm

Always ask for proof. )

Allah revealed everything in the Quran for a reason, and there is a reason why the Quran is called the Wisdom; it makes you think. We are told to ponder, meditate, think, and ask for proof before we believe. By what authority to people say what they say? Show me in the Book! D
If they can't, why do they teach it?
That is why we have iman - confirmed faith. We are not to believe that which we have no knowledge of.

"And pursue not that thou hast no knowledge of; the hearing, the sight, the heart -- all of those shall be questioned of." Surah 1736

Many people strive to make 'sujud' into a position, when it is an act of humility, submission. The angels (mali-katan) were told to make sujud to Adam (pbuh).

"And when We said to the angels, 'Bow (v) yourselves to Adam'; so they bowed (fasajadoo) themselves, save Iblis; he said, 'Shall I bow (aasjudu) myself unto one Thou hast created of clay?'" Surah 1761

This isn't an empty act of prostration. Using the Quran, I see that the forces of nature within this creation made by Allah is made subject to us; Allah gave us control over it

"And to Solomon the wind; its morning course was a month's journey, and its evening course was a month's journey. And We made the Fount of Molten Brass to flow for him. And of the jinn, some worked before him by the leave of his Lord; and such of them as swerved away from Our commandment, We would let them taste the chastisement of the Blaze; fashioning for him whatsoever he would -- places of worship, statues, porringers like water-troughs, and anchored cooking-pots. 'Labour, O House of David, in thankfulness; for few indeed are those that are thankful among My servants.'" Surah 3412-13

"It is He who made the earth smooth to you; therefore walk in its tracts, and eat of His provision; to Him is the Uprising." Surah 6715

"We offered the trust to the heavens and the earth and the mountains, but they refused to carry it and were afraid of it; and man carried it. Surely he is sinful, very foolish." Surah 3372

Islamists read supernatural incidents into this, saying David and Solomon (pbut) could speak to birds in a Walt Disney fashion, and spirits went about doing chores for them.
But I don't see that. I see how Allah made the controllers - mali-katan, the forces of nature - subject to our will through the application of science. But there is one force that refused to obey - out of pride and as the Quran revealed, because it was created to rebel.
That force is Human Nature - Free Will. Our Id, our Ego Iblis.

"We indeed created man; and We know what his soul whispers within him, and We are nearer to him than the jugular vein." Surah 5016

Say the word 'Jinn' and people think evil spirits. I think humans from the Gentile nations outside of the Hebrew (Nasi) nation.
Say the word 'Angels' and people think of men in robes with ginormous wings. I see the forces of nature that do the will of Allah as He commands them.
Say the word 'Iblis' and people think of some horned red goat-man going about causing mischief. I see our Ego whispering to sate our base desires at the expense of others EAT, DRINK, FORNICATE FOR TOMORROW YOU MAY DIE!

I'm compiling a reply to your earlier post(s), so expect a reply later, insha'Allah.
But while I have your attention, as a person who is seeking the Truth and brushes near Atheism Do you believe in anything without proof?

It's a serious question; I'm not attempting to be snarky.
As a Christian I believed on blind faith. Then one day Allah showed me that what man was teaching isn't in His Books. Man lies. It was a valuable lesson Allah taught me I need proof before I believe.

Explanation is not proof.

Next time you speak to an Islamist, ask them how many times they have read the entire Quran from cover-to-cover. You will find most have never read the Quran.
How can anyone know what is in the Book if they don't read it?

You asked for a drink of water, and I gave you a bucket. I apologize for the length of reply and the extent of information, but I fear the next reply will be longer and contain even more.
The Quran states it explains all things, and contains a description for everything. Everytime I read the Quran, the more I learn, and the more I realize it truly does answer every question a person can bring forth.

But only if they want to know the Truth.

May Allah increase us in knowledge.

Peace.

[raginggaijin]

Was that message is the one which is available for us today in the compiled form called 'Quran'?

Yes.

Those who uphold hadith reject the Quran. Allah has not given authority to follow anything but what He revealed.

?Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow guardians besides Him, how little do you mind.? Surah 73

Take a test and see if you obey Allah and the Messenger, or if you obey the way of the ancients. This is ?pass or fail?, just as it will be on the Day of Judgment. Let us see who truly rejects the Quran.

Muhammad (pbuh) was revealed the Quran by Allah, and it was the Prophet (pbuh) who taught us the Quran. Only in the Quran, the pure, protected revelation, do we have proof of the Messenger?s words
"Say 'I do not find, in what is revealed to me, aught forbidden to him who eats thereof except it be carrion, or blood outpoured, or the flesh of swine -- that is unclean -- or an ungodly thing that has been blessed to other than Allah; yet whoso is constrained, not desiring nor transgressing, surely thy Lord is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.'" Surah 6145
That is the Prophet Muhammad speaking (pbuh). He states nothing is forbidden EXCEPT four specific foods. Carrion, blood, flesh of swine, and food blessed to another god.

Now turn to hadith, and count how many foods are forbidden within.
Then look to the additions in the Torah and find the same forbidden foods as the Jews ? Orthodox Yahduians who follow the Talmud, also known as the Oral Law.

Beasts with fangs Sahih Bukhari #5527, Sahih Muslim # 2721
Donkey Meat Sahih Bukhari #5521
Birds with talons Sahih Muslim # 4752
Amphibians Saheeh Jaami #6970

Beasts with fangs Lev. 113; Deut. 146
Donkey Meat Lev. 113-4, Deut. 147
Birds with talons Lev. 1113-20, Deut. 1412
Amphibians Lev. 1129-30, 42-43, Deut. 1410

Halal/kosher food Lev. 111-46, Deut. 143-21

Allah revealed to the Messenger that all foods not forbidden in the Quran were permitted to the People of the Book.
?Today the good things are permitted you, and the food of those who were given the Book is permitted to you, and permitted to them is your food; Likewise believing women in wedlock, and in wedlock women of them who were given the Book before you if you give them their wages, in wedlock and not in licence, or as taking lovers. Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed, and in the world to come he shall be among the losers.? Surah 55

Who, when proof is given, is shown to reject the Quran and who is shown to uphold it?

"The Truth has come and falsehood vanished. Surely falsehood is ever bound to vanish." Surah 1781, 3447-50

Only believers, muslims with faith in their heart who uphold the revelation of Allah, the word of an honored Messenger, pass the test.

Allah condemns hadiths Surah 7185,12111, 316, 456, 5234, 6844, 7750
?These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what saying (hadeethin) would they believe after Allah and His communications?? Surah 456
?Allah has revealed the best saying (hadeethin), a Book (Kitaban) conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.? Surah 3923

Allah protects the Quran, so the satans follow the way of the ancients, who created teachings beside what Allah revealed to the Messengers (pbut).
Allah states evil does not reproduce nor originate If they did it in the past, the same pattern will continue; they won't make anything new.

"Say "The Truth has arrived, and falsehood neither originates, nor reproduces." Surah 3449

Peace.

[raginggaijin]

Fascinating. A thousand flowers of gratitude for shedding some light on your philosophy. It's been many years now since I've peeked between the covers of the Hadiths having joined the God-Is-Dead crowd, but I was labouring under the impression that it was from there which one drew the particulars of salat. So much for intellectual indpendence. To be clear, is it your contention that there is no such instruction for how to perform salat at all, or that there is only some partial details out of which it is constructed because if that is the case the people whom you call Islamists might counter that the information imparted by the Quran and Hadith combined form the modern prayer format.

Hadith speaks of salat in partial detail, but within the limits found in the Quran. So for a person to say hadith teaches salat is a blatant falsehood, as how Islamists pray is not found in hadith nor in the Quran.

I'm not sure I follow the meaning of "namaz". Is that another term for salat because I seldom encountered it in my Salafi incarnation? When you say that the Islamist form of prayer is pagan, can you support this with historical data? I know that the Ka'aba was a pagan shrine devoted to a pantheon of Meccan Gods one of whom was Allah, but the prayer is news to me.

Where do they get the 5 prayers from?
From the Jews ? Orthodox Yahudians.

In the book ?To Pray As A Jew ? A Guide to the Prayer Book and the Synagogue Service? by Rabbi Hayim Halvey Donin, we find not only the five prayer times the foundation for the memorized phrases as well 19 ritualized prayers according to Rabbi Donin?s book, found on page 74 to 75.

The 5 times for prayer are found on pages 337-341, divided between Morning, Noon, and Night. as taught in the Talmud. This is not the Torah/Tankah ? also known as the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, but teachings written to 'explain' the Torah; the oral Law of Moses. Jewish hadith. (Starting to see a pattern here?)

Where did the Yahudians get their prayer times? According to Rabbi Donin, they were affixed by Ezra and the Great Assembly after their exile in Babylon. He even states the times were set to correspond with the time of services in the Temple. An outline of their prayer times is found on page 68.

These times were incorporated from the Zoroastrian ?Geh?; Namaz taught during their exile in Babylon. Zoroastrian Magi adopted the Kabbalist esoteric teachings into their doctrine, incorporating the 5 equinoxes of Venus and earth into Namaz/prayer; Homage to the 5 pointed star. Syncretism.

Earth-Venus conjuction
http//www.lunarplanner.com/HCpages/Venus.html

The same periods of time the Islamists pray and as the Zoraostrians prayed.

Prayer Islamist ? Judaism ? Zoroastrian
Morning
Dawn Fajr ? Shaharit ? Havaan
Midday Noon Zuhar ? Musaf ? Rapithwan
Afternoon Asr ? Minha ? Uziren
Evening Maghrib ? Maariv ? Aiwisuthrem
Night Isha ? Shema ? Ushaen

These periods of prayer are found in the Zoroastrian Avesta and still taught by Zoroastrian?s today. It is worth noting in the Arthur H. Bleeck translation of the Avesta, he details in the 'Excursus' appendix the similarities between Zoroastrian practice and Freemasonry.

Pharisee - Farsi

These teachings were adopted by the Pharisees; Persian Yahudians who follow the Babylonian Talmud. Pharisee, derived from the word Farsi ? the language of Persia, were the Orthodox Jews who were condemned by the Messiah (pbuh) in the Gospel Accounts, for following traditions beside what Allah revealed.

Follow not the traditions or doctrines of men Exo. 2412, Deut. 41-2, Deut. 624, Deut. 81, Deut. 1232, Lev. 184, Josh. 17, Mark 75-9, Mat. 153-9, Isaiah 2913, Mark 713, John 717, Col. 28, Gal. 43, Titus 19, Rom. 814-16, Rev. 2218-19

?But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.? Mat. 2313 (Mat. 231-39)
"For in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Mat. 159

Just as the Yahud require to cover the head, so too do the Islamists. Is it any surprise this was required of the Zoroastrians as well?
This teaching stems from Kabbalist ritual of covering the head to harness 'spiritual power'.

http//www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380719/jewish/Mystical-Significance-of-Hair-1.htm

Polytheists cannot understand Allah did not teach Namaz ? pagan prayer. The word namaz or namaaz is used in modern Persian to mean prayer. It is derived from namazh, in turn derived from the Middle Persian namaach, a word with roots in the Avestan nemangh. The word namaz is now also used by Persian and Indo-Pakistani Muslims to mean prayer.

Namaz/Namaaz (Persian) ? Namaach ? Nemangh

More information on Zoroastrian beliefs can be found at
http//heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/worship/index.htm

"When thou recitest the Koran, We place between thee, and those who do not believe in the world to come, a curtain obstructing," Surah 1745

When asked ?Where do you find the number of rakats in the Quran? I respond ?You cannot. Allah did not teach mankind to pray as a polytheist.?
When asked ?Where does it teach prayer in the Quran?? not only are believers able to provide the periods for prayer, we can show them every aspect of prayer required of us. As shown in previous posts. D

Impressive. I haven't had time to consult all those passages yet, but how would you describe the main difference between your mode of prayer and the mainstream one? Is there an agreed upon convention among the Quranists for how to pray or is it individually determined?

I've delved into this in an earlier response, but the main difference between and agreed upon convention Reading the Quran. )

There is merit in your words.

These aren't my words. Everything I bring forth is given to me by Allah. He is in control of all things and He increases in knowledge those who ask for it, and strive to become a person of understanding.
Don't take my word for it. Check everything I say and confirm it for yourself. Don't take me as a guide when Allah is All Mighty. )
If He can make me - a Scot/Irish American, raised on a farm in a Trinitarian Christian family - learn this knowledge, then He can make anyone a scholar. Which is what He tells all of us to become in the Quran.

"It belongs not to any mortal that God should give him the Book, the Judgment, the Prophethood, then he should say to men, 'Be you servants to me apart from God.' Rather, 'Be you scholars (rabbaniyyeena) in that you know the Book, and in that you study.'" Surah 379

I grant that Muhammad is deified by Muslims. I would be less than truthful if I said that I did not find it strange that you don't much care to know the biography of the postman who delivered a message on which hung your imperishable soul.

What matters the postman if the Message is wrong?

To be clear, am I right in thinking that the Seerah and the Hadith are all just forests and forests of pagan fables?

In my opinion based off of study of the Quran and the religions of man?
Yes. They are forests and forests of pagan fables.
When you read the Quran and see that it teaches equity/balance, justice, equality between all races and genders, tolerance, kindness, forgiving, and self-defense, among numerous scientific miracles, prophecies, and arguments that refute everything brought forth...

...how can I not believe?

But don't believe without proof. Make them bring their proof; even me. Make them show you why they believe what they believe.
Explanation is not proof.

Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

May Allah guide your path.

Peace.

[Jafar]

I guess I'm still reeling from my Salafi indoctrination. Your words ring logically sound, but it may be some time before my godless heart can register it.

I forgot to mentioned that I used to be a Salafi too... LOL
Yes years of indoctrination might be very hard to disband in very short time.. you do need time...
Ask guidance to God, He will answer you..
And no... my dear friend.. your heart is not godless.... so please don't say that...

Interesting. I'm forcibly struck by the observation that Quranists don't set much stock by Muhammad's life. Does this not expose you to the charge of following someone about whose character and integrity you are ignorant?

First I don't consider myself to be a Quranist.. yet I don't set much stock by Muhammad's life story either..
And I don't follow Muhammad.. how could I ? I never met the guy!
There's 1400 years of lapsed time between me and him!

And so does with everyone else living among us now...
How could one be a follower of a dead people?

And the Mi'rage is related in the Quran I thought, no?

You mean the Isra Mi'raj?
Well there are chapter which is titled "Al-Isra".. which often being quoted as the reference for the 'Miraj' story.. yet if you read the chapter thoroughly (and if you read from english translation, please disregard the human addition which is indicated by the bracketed words) You can derived a conclusion that it is actually talking about Moses...

Salam / Peace

[Jafar]

How would you respond to the notion that the Quran is replete with prophetic stories about Moses, Jesus and the like whereas the biography of Muhammad is well nigh absent, hence the need for a secondary literature?

The answer is simple Do we really need it?

If the answer you got is yes.. then even the Quran is not clear on the biography of some characters which are being mentioned..
For example

• Where did Abraham born?
• What is Abraham birth date?
• Who is this 'our servant' who talk to Moses and mentioned in 1865?
• Where did he born?
• What's his favorite food?
• Did he like dog too?
• Ah speaking about dog.. who is this dog being mentioned in the story of the cave in the Quran?
• Is it a poodle dog? or more of a terrier dog?
• I'm dead serious!! Because I'm planning to have a dog at my house! And I want to follow Quran 100%! As thus my dog must be the type of dog that's being mentioned in the Quran!
• And where did the companion of the Cave bought the dog? I want to buy from the same petstore...
• What kind of dog food that they feed it with?
• Did they broom the dog at the pet saloon too? Which saloon is that?
• Did they feed it 2 or 3 times a day?
• Does it like Friskies too? Although Friskies is more of a cat food rather than dog food..
• What you didn't like dog?
• Why? Should I buy a cat instead then?
• Is there any cat recommended in the Quran?
• I mean the type of the cat of course.. a persian or angoran.
• Does Moses like cat too?
• How about Abraham? Which one would he prefer? A cat or a dog?
• You really think he would prefer a camel instead?
• What type of camel is recommended by Islam?
• How should we feed the camel according to Islam?
• Is it okay to feed the camel with Friskies?

(PS See how ridiculous the way of thinking are... and it can be easily constructed in 'monthy-python skecth' styled of dialogue and it shall became a perfect joke material)

Salam / Peace

[Beardo]

Islamists strive to show a pattern that follows the teachings of the Jews and Zoroastrians and Roman Catholics, making a time of study and remembrance into a vacuous ritual not taught in any Book revealed by Allah. If you don't believe me, go to Amazon.com and buy 'To Pray As A Jew' by Rabbi Hayim Donin, which details the positions, times, and even includes 19 phrases to memorize and utter. All taught from the Babylonian Talmud. This was adopted from the corrupted Zoroastrian teachings of Babylon, during the rule of Nebuchadnezzar. The Zoroastrians still practice their prayer - the Persian word is 'Namaz' - to this very day

This blew my hair so far back that I?ve had to buy a wig. So the Hadith mongers are recycling the conventions of the much hated Hebrews. Amusing. I consulted Amazon and broke out in fits of laughter. I had known that some aspects of Islam were pilfered from the Zoroastrians because the description of the Last Day in the Hadith where the masses are made to cross a thin bridge under which is the flames of hell by which the faithful and the faithless are sorted is a direct plagiarism of Zoroastrianism, but who knew that much else was borrowed from the mushrikeen. I suspected that Namaz was not an Arabic term because I did not encounter it in my Islamic days. So it?s a Persian coinage then. Fascinating

Islamists read supernatural incidents into this, saying David and Solomon (pbut) could speak to birds in a Walt Disney fashion, and spirits went about doing chores for them. But I don't see that. I see how Allah made the controllers - mali-katan, the forces of nature - subject to our will through the application of science. But there is one force that refused to obey - out of pride and as the Quran revealed, because it was created to rebel. That force is Human Nature - Free Will. Our Id, our Ego Iblis.

I observe that your reading of the Quran has a modern ring. I thought I would never see the day when the tale of Soloman would clothe itself in Freudian garb. It?s certainly more plausible than the Doctor Dolittle rendition one commonly encounters.

But I must say that I?ve always had a soft spot for Iblis. The rest of the Choir Invisible appeared to me as little better than mindless automatons without any self volition, without humanity. Here was someone who thought and behaved if not always correctly at least independently of the robotic angels. He was an individual. Not a mass produced thing on an assembly line. And as Mark Twain asked Of all the sinners of the globe, who is in more urgent need of prayer than the most deformed of spirit? The apposite response I?ve always felt was pity, not the hatred and vilification that is the everyday speech of Muslims.

Say the word 'Jinn' and people think evil spirits. I think humans from the Gentile nations outside of the Hebrew (Nasi) nation. Say the word 'Angels' and people think of men in robes with ginormous wings. I see the forces of nature that do the will of Allah as He commands them. Say the word 'Iblis' and people think of some horned red goat-man going about causing mischief. I see our Ego whispering to sate our base desires at the expense of others EAT, DRINK, FORNICATE FOR TOMORROW YOU MAY DIE!

A pressing question Do you reject the existence of the devil as a corporeal entity?

I'm compiling a reply to your earlier post(s), so expect a reply later, insha'Allah. But while I have your attention, as a person who is seeking the Truth and brushes near Atheism Do you believe in anything without proof?

In a former life when I was a member of the Sword of the Infidel-Slayer Mosque, I demanded no evidence beyond what I read in the Hadith. I taught lessons in tajweed at the mosque which I now understand have no scriptural support. A pity really, for the Quran Aloners might not care for such things but I could break out in flights of Quranic recital that would make the angels dance and bliss rain from the sky. Since then I haven?t much seen a Quran for seven years. My brain has naturally been wiped clean of anything I memorised beyond the shorter chapters which by some reason remain firmly etched in my skull. I?m not even sure I even retain the capacity to read Arabic fluently.

My present theological convictions are that there is no cosmic tenant beyond the clouds, but the more I interact on this board the more I wonder if my flight of faith had not more to do with the bottomless superstitions of my own school of Muslim thought. I rejoice to learn that your convictions are less zany than the hadith crowd because I had read a good number of Bukhari volumes and found them, upon questing on a philosophical voyage, one notch above nursery rhymes like the tale of Moses encountering a running stone and how the Prophet split the moon in half and suchlike.

But the truth be told I have to say that I found the regimentation of the human spirit suffocating, the ban on music, painting, sculpture and the general arts. I won?t be the first to observe that your movement has something of the air of the Reformation for Luther, spotting the layer upon layer of Bible-free Church conventions, warred too against the accretions that had slowly crowded out the true Christian essence. But Luther was opposed to the arts no less and thundered against ornamental churches so perhaps the likeness is not quite apt.

Incidentally, I rather enjoy the length of your posts in the age where most cyber conversations consist of emoticon filled one liners. No, by all means pour the bucket over my head.

Stray question Why does my cursor slow down when I'm composing a post? As I move it about to quote something it feels laboured. Is it a bug or just me?

[Beardo]

I forgot to mentioned that I used to be a Salafi too... LOL

Yes years of indoctrination might be very hard to disband in very short time.. you do need time

A kindred soul! Never thought I'd meet a former Salafi on a heretical board like this, but I suppose if a Salafi can become a religious skeptic then they can certainly be a reformed Muslim. Thanks for sharing.

Can you tell me what made you swim ashore to this reformist island?

First I don't consider myself to be a Quranist.. yet I don't set much stock by Muhammad's life story either..

And I don't follow Muhammad.. how could I ? I never met the guy!
There's 1400 years of lapsed time between me and him!

And so does with everyone else living among us now...
How could one be a follower of a dead people?

Point well taken.

You mean the Isra Mi'raj?
Well there are chapter which is titled "Al-Isra".. which often being quoted as the reference for the 'Miraj' story.. yet if you read the chapter thoroughly (and if you read from english translation, please disregard the human addition which is indicated by the bracketed words) You can derived a conclusion that it is actually talking about Moses...

Intriguing. I will give it a second glance and see what I can make it. I suppose I'm still influenced by the Hadith which speaks at length about the heavenly journey on the buraq (winged horse) during which Muhammad encountered all the prophets and recieved instructions on establishing the Salat which, or so the Hadith relates, began with 50 prayers a day till bit by bit Muhammad argued it down with God to just five because few people could manage so many prayers. I've always found the idea that muhammad was a better psychologust than God tickling.

[Jafar]

This blew my hair so far back that I?ve had to buy a wig. So the Hadith mongers are recycling the conventions of the much hated Hebrews.

You should study more on Judaism.. and it shall furthermore blew off your head!

What Is Judaism??

Judaism is not just a set of beliefs about G-d, man and the universe. Judaism is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life what you do when you wake up in the morning, what you can and cannot eat, what you can and cannot wear, how to groom yourself, how to conduct business, who you can marry, how to observe the holidays and Shabbat, and perhaps most important, how to treat G-d, other people, and animals. This set of rules and practices is known as HALAKHAH.
http//www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm

And we can hear these statement as well from the salaf sunnis..

Islam is not just a set of beliefs about God, man and the universe. Islam is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life.... This set of rules and practices is known as SHARIA.

And that motivate the writing and collection of the 'oral tradition' a.k.a Hadith since JUDAISM also had their own "ORAL LAW/TRADITION"..
http//www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/Oral_Law.html

See this quote.. and how similar their 'way of thinking' are..
"Without an oral tradition, some of the Torah's laws would be incomprehensible. Common sense suggests that some sort of oral tradition was always needed to accompany the Written Law, because the Torah alone, even with its 613 commandments, is an insufficient guide to Jewish life. "

That's why I believe Sunnism is a transformed version of Judaism.. it should be properly named as "Judeo-Arabic" religion..

A pressing question Do you reject the existence of the devil as a corporeal entity?

No stand ...neither yes or no... due to lack of evidence or information at the moment.

But for the sake of discussion; let's assume that it is a 'metaphorical'.. the Quran tells the following character of the Devil..

• Arrogant
• Full of hatred
• Full of vengeance
• Deceitful and liars

As thus we can derived these characters as 'anti-evil' a.k.a 'good'.

• Humble
• Full of love
• Full of compassion / forgiving
• Honest and truthful

Which we should incorporate in our everyday life.. and.. you can detect 'evilness' by those characters.. those who are arrogant, full of hatred, vengeful or deceits.. better stay away from them..

Stray question Why does my cursor slow down when I'm composing a post? As I move it about to quote something it feels laboured. Is it a bug or just me?

It's a bug on this forum script... which somehow incompatible with MS Internet Explorer.. try using mozilla firefox and it's all fine..

Salam / Peace

[Beardo]

The answer is simple Do we really need it?

If the answer you got is yes.. then even the Quran is not clear on the biography of some characters which are being mentioned..
For example

• Where did Abraham born?
• What is Abraham birth date?
• Who is this 'our servant' who talk to Moses and mentioned in 1865?
• Where did he born?
• What's his favorite food?
• Did he like dog too?
• Ah speaking about dog.. who is this dog being mentioned in the story of the cave in the Quran?
• Is it a poodle dog? or more of a terrier dog?
• I'm dead serious!! Because I'm planning to have a dog at my house! And I want to follow Quran 100%! As thus my dog must be the type of dog that's being mentioned in the Quran!
• And where did the companion of the Cave bought the dog? I want to buy from the same petstore...
• What kind of dog food that they feed it with?
• Did they broom the dog at the pet saloon too? Which saloon is that?
• Did they feed it 2 or 3 times a day?
• Does it like Friskies too? Although Friskies is more of a cat food rather than dog food..
• What you didn't like dog?
• Why? Should I buy a cat instead then?
• Is there any cat recommended in the Quran?
• I mean the type of the cat of course.. a persian or angoran.
• Does Moses like cat too?
• How about Abraham? Which one would he prefer? A cat or a dog?
• You really think he would prefer a camel instead?
• What type of camel is recommended by Islam?
• How should we feed the camel according to Islam?
• Is it okay to feed the camel with Friskies?

(PS See how ridiculous the way of thinking are... and it can be easily constructed in 'monthy-python skecth' styled of dialogue and it shall became a perfect joke material)

Salam / Peace

Funny. Your words have merit. I've always thought that the Quran was hopelessly thin on storylines because it jumps from short vignette to short vignette, from Adam and Eve in one line to Moses in the other to Abraham. Little character development. And often the stories are extremely repetitive without any additional details. The tale of the Children of Israel is retold a thousand times with little variation.

Can you tell me what, going by the Quran alone, one can know about Muhammad? I can't disentangle my Quran imparted knowledge of him and the Seerah. I imagine that if you throw out the biography of Ibn Ishaq you won't know so fundamental a thing as his name for if memory serves I don't think the Quran mentions him by that name; it calls him Ahmed I think, no? It's been some years so my command of the Quran is a little rusty.

You will miss key details like how he got the revelation and where, what made him fit for the prophetic mission, what the history of his mission was and how he surmounted political opposition from the Quriash and suchlike details. I'm not sure I can entrust my never dying soul to a document purporting to be of divine origin if I can't establish who delivered it.

So what facts about his life can we glean from just the Quran?

Thanks.

[Beardo]

You should study more on Judaism.. and it shall furthermore blew off your head!

What Is Judaism??

Judaism is not just a set of beliefs about G-d, man and the universe. Judaism is a comprehensive way of life, filled with rules and practices that affect every aspect of life what you do when you wake up in the morning, what you can and cannot eat, what you can and cannot wear, how to groom yourself, how to conduct business, who you can marry, how to observe the holidays and Shabbat, and perhaps most important, how to treat G-d, other people, and animals. This set of rules and practices is known as HALAKHAH.
http//www.jewfaq.org/halakhah.htm

And we can hear these statement as well from the salaf sunnis

Quit blowing my wig off! Your argument is sound. The more I probe the more I feel like an Orthodox Jew. I'm tickled by the fact that Sunnis model themselves on the one class of men they abominate.

No stand ...neither yes or no... due to lack of evidence or information at the moment.

If the Shaytan is an allegorical figment, does that mean there is no tempting whisperer that drags men down to hell? That's a radical departure from the Quran's countless threats of post-mortem retribution.

It's a bug on this forum script... which somehow incompatible with MS Internet Explorer.. try using mozilla firefox and it's all fine.

I'm using Mozilla Firefox as things stand! I'm really done for now aren't I? Maybe I should migrate to Chrome. But yes, it's inhibiting. Can you tell me how to bring up multiple quote brackets when I'm responding to something because right now I'm having to manually cut and post the quote brackets and it's a tiresome.

[herbman]

Salam and Peace,

You say you know details about the Prophete by reading ahadith and Sira.

What about if I tell you, no you are wrong, what you think you know is wrong

example1
In the Sira, the prophete has been bewitched by a jew, this is also the tafsir of surat 113 verse 4
In the Quran 1447
We know best why it is they listen, when they listen to thee; and when they meet in private conference, behold, the wicked say "Ye follow none other than a man bewitched!"
1748
See what similes thy strike for thee; but they have gone astray, and never can they find a way.

example2
In the Sira the Prophete did miracles, e.g. giving 1000 of soldier water from his hands
In the Quransee 635, 637 etc etc

example3
In the Sira The prophete explain the Quran
In the Quran 551-2 It is Arrahman who teaches the Quran

many other examples....

Make your own conclusion.

ps I would not be so sure about who did the Isra, Muhamad, Moses or Ibrahim please search and make your own conclusion yourself.

Peace

[SarahY]

Your posts are intriguing or maybe it just amused me.

Different people will give you different responses even if they all classify themselves as "Quranic/Quranist etc"

Hadith is a source just like any other historical document. some documents have higher weighing than others because they've been backed up and proven, others are simply unknown. hadiths plays a huge part in muslim socio-cultral context. to deny all of them completely is like taking a big portion out of muslim heritage..

with seerah... in some instances hadiths are in confluence with the Quran. we dunno the character of Muhammed from the Quran in the same way we know him in hadith but is that all necessary?

Just because one takes Quran alone as a source of guidance or even divine law, it doesn't mean they can't gain knowledge of the prophet from Seerah. though keep in mind it doesn't necessarily mean such seerah is accurate. The Quran mentions the prophet by name check 3144.

how and where he got the revelation isn't exactly relevant? but i guess for you, you feel it is. that's something you'd have to reason with. If the prophet is a messenger that abided by the message and his character is the Quran (or walking Quran as tradition says) then one would need to resonate with themselves whether the message is what they agree with or not.. or i guess research what the Quran actually says exclusively about the prophet Muhammed.

There is no step by step instruction of how to perform salat in Quran however there are details of what is required in salat. you wont get the same precision as in hadith abu dawud, but the essentials... you could say e.g.

• 2014 salat is a dhikr
• 443 to be conscious not drunk and clean.
• 17110 to speak in a moderate tone
• 56 perform ablution
• 2238 to be diligent in salat by maintaining moderation/a balance
• 2237 to attend salat regularly.

there's heaps of discussion on salat and a lot more verses than those.

hope that helps

Salam

[Beardo]

example2

In the Sira the Prophete did miracles, e.g. giving 1000 of soldier water from his hands

In the Quransee 635, 637 etc etc

Steady now, this knocked me right back. That was one of the hadiths by which I was impressed when I was a Muslim for it imbued in Muhammad an otherwordly quality that I thought was fitting for God's very own postman. I had never known that miracles were denied to Muhammad. Poor widdle thing. Do we know if that was a Meccan or a Medinan verse because it might be argued it's an abrogated passage that has been superseded by a later one?

[Beardo]

Your posts are intriguing or maybe it just amused me.

Different people will give you different responses even if they all classify themselves as "Quranic/Quranist etc"

Hadith is a source just like any other historical document. some documents have higher weighing than others because they've been backed up and proven, others are simply unknown. hadiths plays a huge part in muslim socio-cultral context. to deny all of them completely is like taking a big portion out of muslim heritage..

with seerah... in some instances hadiths are in confluence with the Quran. we dunno the character of Muhammed from the Quran in the same way we know him in hadith but is that all necessary?

When I look at your avatar from which hotness radiates like heat from a stove my nipples harden. I think you need to veil up sister.

Your correction about Muhammad is duly noted. Looking it up I'm reminded that the surah was actually a favourite of mine. What I'm trying to establish is why, having shed the Muslim narrative about the making of Muhammad the Prophet, his honesty, his good character, his humble estate and his illiteracy you lend any credence to his message at all?

Let me clarify.

If you don?t know that he was a merchant universally admired for his moral rectitude and not a charlatan of whom there are a dime a dozen, if you don?t know that he was unlettered and so could not have penned the Quran himself, if you don?t know the process by which this message from beyond the clouds came to fruition, how would you know there was a message at all from a person that you do not know except from the Hadith?

[Jafar]

Steady now, this knocked me right back. That was one of the hadiths by which I was impressed when I was a Muslim for it imbued in Muhammad an otherwordly quality that I thought was fitting for God's very own postman. I had never known that miracles were denied to Muhammad. Poor widdle thing. Do we know if that was a Meccan or a Medinan verse because it might be argued it's an abrogated passage that has been superseded by a later one?

Hold on... who said that 'God's postman' need to do miracles?
Are you looking for wisdom or just some figures who can do 'hocus pocus magical tricks'?
I bet this 'way of thought' are influenced by the 'judeo-christianity' religion.. Jesus story to be exact..

This one is hilarious... Rowan Atkinson's rendition of "The Amazing Jesus"..
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTzXJMU1sLc

It satirically criticized the 'christian way' of thinking.. not the story of Jesus per se..

Abrogation?? There's no such thing as abrogation...

Salam / Peace

[TruthBehindIt]

Salam and Peace, everyone!

1)---Salaat means "the ritual Salaat."
2)---Salaat also means "commitment to Al-Quran." (The meaning of Salaat becomes clear with reference to context. Sometimes it is only ritual, and sometimes it is commitment)

After all these dabates, we have not yet reached a final method of offering "the ritual Salaat."
Why?---Perhaps, there is something missing. And that something, that is missing is,---that we must go to our Allah and request Him to guide us, because there is no one except Allah to guide His slaves.

Read Al-Quran, and we will find that Allah is advising Ibraheem to offer Salaat the way He taught him to do.
It means that Allah taught Ibraheem the full method of ritual Salaat. And this full method must be in The Revelations that Ibraheem received from Allah.

And because once the full method of the ritual Salaat was given to Ibraheem, and this is valid until Al-Qiyamah, so may be in the next Revelations Allah didn't mention the method of Salaat, only commanded to offer Salaat (the method of which was already given to Ibraheem).

It means the method of ritual Salaat that we follow today,---is the same method of ritual Salaat that is coming down from generation to generation since Ibraheem.

It might have been so, that at different times people added to the real Salaat, some shirk things.
And whenever Allah's Messenger came, they did away with the shirk part that misguided people had added to Salaat, purified it, and gave it to the people.

The same Salaat was being offered at the time of Muhammad in Makkah. People had added shirk things again to the Salaat, and the real method was not easy to find out.
When Muhammad was declared as Messenger of Allah, he must have taken away shirk form the Salaat, purified it and gave it to ummah.

Allah declares in His Exalted Quran, that His Quran is in His Protection. It means that everything in Al-Quran is in Allah's Protection. Nothing from Al-Quran will be changed or lost.
So, Salaat is one of Allah's Commandments, so Salaat is also in Allah's Protection.

The way Al-Quran is coming down from generation to generation in Allah's Protection,-----the same way Salaat is also coming down from generation to generation in Allah's Protection.
Having Iman in it, we must believe that today we have the same method of ritual Salaat that was first given to Ibraheem.

Al-Quran is The Light. And The Light shows people what is right and what is wrong, what is Tauheed and what is shirk.

This will be our own fault, if in spite of having Allah's Quran (Allah's Guidance), we are unable to find out the real method of Salaat.

Now, look at the method of the Salaat, we presently have,-----examine it, in The Light of The Quran,-----and whatever shirk things we find in it, we must do away with that.
Rest is absolutely okay.
Reciting from Al-Quran, standing, ruku, sajdah, everything is alright.

Al-Quran, The Light,-----is Allah's Guidance,-----that will take us to the real method of the ritual Salaat.

Look at all the rituals different nations have. Our method of ritual Salaat is the best.
First you stand like an obedient slave before your Allah. Then you do ruku. Then you do sajdah.
No method, as such, is so obedient and humble as ours.

The Shirk-part in the Salaat that the majority of the ummah follows which is mentioned in Al-Bukhari, is the remembrance of the Prophet, i.e. Salam (called "Darood Shareef" in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh).

Take away this Darood Shareef from the Salaat.
Salaat is for Allah's Remembrance only, and not the Prophet's.

-----?Indeed, I am Allah, there is no god except Me, so worship Me and establish Salat for My Remembrance.? (2014)

If there had been no Sahih Al-Bukhari, etc,---still we would have the same method of ritual Salaat that was given to Ibrheem (AS).
This is the "Millata Ibraheema (Salaat, Hujj, Umrah)" that Allah commanded the last Messenger to follow

-----"Then, We inspired you (O Messenger, saying) ?Follow the religion of Abraham, exclusively devoted. And he was not of those who associated (others with Allah)." (Al-Nahl-123)

If "Millata Ibraheema (Salaat, Hujj, Umrah)" had not been in Allah's Protection and if it had been disappeared,-----why would have Allah ordered the Messenger (and the ummah) to follow it, without mentioning their methods in datail in Al-Quran?

So, the methods of "Millata Ibraheema (Salaat, Hujj, Umrah)" was already there and being practiced, so Allah didn't mention their methods in Al-Quran.
The last Messenger only purified these rituals from shirk, and ordered his ummah to follow.

Salaat is not in Imam Bukhari's Protection.---Don't put the crown on his head.

Salaat is in Allah's Protection, and He knows how to protect it for His obedient slaves who do not commit shirk with Him.

As a matter of fact, I learned Salaat from my parents.---Never read Sahih Al-Bukhari.
My parents learned from their parents.---They never read Sahih Al-Bukhari.
Their parents learned from their parents.---They never read Sahih Al-Bukhari.
-----and this goes, until we reach the Prophet.
This is in Allah's Protection.

Where do we find Imam Bukhari?

Peace again!
A lot of Peace!

[Beardo]

That video is tickly Jafar. True enough the concept of miracle working is for those with an IQ south of ten, but the idea is a recurrent theme in the Quran wouldn't you agree?

I thought abrogation was dealt with in Sura 2 Verse 106.

Stray question Does the Quran specify how to perform Hajj or Zakah?

[Beardo]

Truth Behind It

In what you say there is much truth behind it.

But I'm finding to my consternation that each answer I get spawns ten other questions. I think Salat is the least of my worries at the present. I'm in doubt as to whether I'm expected to believe in a personal devil who whispers soft words in my ear which turneth God away.

[raginggaijin]

This blew my hair so far back that I?ve had to buy a wig. So the Hadith mongers are recycling the conventions of the much hated Hebrews. Amusing. I consulted Amazon and broke out in fits of laughter. I had known that some aspects of Islam were pilfered from the Zoroastrians because the description of the Last Day in the Hadith where the masses are made to cross a thin bridge under which is the flames of hell by which the faithful and the faithless are sorted is a direct plagiarism of Zoroastrianism, but who knew that much else was borrowed from the mushrikeen. I suspected that Namaz was not an Arabic term because I did not encounter it in my Islamic days. So it?s a Persian coinage then. Fascinating.

Fascinating was not the response I had when the full extent of the plagiarism was made clear to me. Coming from Trinitarian Christianity - a thin veil of monotheism covering the body of pagan polytheism - the deception of man was made clear to me within the sect I was guided out from later in life. "Believe, believe, believe, but on faith alone!"
It was in reading the entire Bible that proved to me what was in the Book wasn't being taught by man, and teaching me to be distrustful of man's teaching. I believe this was a good thing as the spiritual rug that was pulled out from under me made me question everything and everyone who came forth professing to know the Truth. There is a push for conformity - the need for everyone to believe as the group-think believes - which reminds me of a cancer agenda; cancerous cells that slowly multiply until it devours and kills the host.

When I was first introduced to hadith, it was easy to see they were additions of man; so many contradictions and teachings not found in the Quran. But the nagging question of where they came from abounded, especially when Allah tells us that these teachings are recycled teachings If they do it now, they did it in ancient times.

"Say "The Truth has arrived, and falsehood neither originates, nor reproduces." Surah 3449

When investigation is made, the infiltration of all religions of man is made well apparent

Terrorism, violence and intolerance Deut. 2010-18, Num. 3117, Num. 3132-35, Joshua 621-24, I Sam.l 1827, I Kings 1840
Religious compulsion (kill unbelievers) Lev. 2416, Ph. 210; Deut 172-7, II Chron.1513, Deut. 135-10
Apostasy Deut. 135-10
Suicide Mission Judges 1627-30
Stoning Adulterers Deut. 2223-24, Lev. 210, John 86-8
Sunni ?Al-Aqeedah? Gen. 221-19, James 221, Heb. 117, Rom. 416
Halal/kosher food Lev. 111-46
Genital mutilation Gen. 1713-14, Gen. 1723-25, Exo. 424-26
Grow a beard Lev. 1927, Lev. 215, II Sam. 105
Cover your head Lev. 106, II Maccabes 4412, Shabbat 156b
?Cover your head in order that the fear of heaven may be upon you.?
Djjal/All-Seeing Eye/Head Corner-stone Job 384-7, Zech. 1117, Mat. 622, Luke 1134, Eph. 221-22, Rev. 16213, Rev. 1920, Rev. 2010
Slavery Lev. 2544-46, Lev. 2210-11, Exo. 2132
Females are unclean Lev. 122-5, Lev. 1519-25
Proof of virginity Deut. 2215-21
Raped girl should be killed Deut. 2222-29
Hijab I Cor. 113-6
Men dominate women I Cor. 113, I Peter 31-7, Eph. 522-24
Daughters are property Exo. 217
Women have no rights I Tim. 211-15, I Cor. 1434-36
Pedophilia Sanhedrin 52b, 54b, 55b, 69a, Kethuboth 11b, Yebamoth 60b

None of these teachings are in the Quran.
The Islamists are better Christians and Yahudians than the modern day Christians and Yahudians. They uphold what is in the Bible because it is all recycled into hadith.

I observe that your reading of the Quran has a modern ring. I thought I would never see the day when the tale of Soloman would clothe itself in Freudian garb. It?s certainly more plausible than the Doctor Dolittle rendition one commonly encounters.

Why would I not use my common sense, the intellect Allah gave us? I am grateful for His blessings.
Throughout the Quran Allah tells us repeatedly to use our heads. He even tells us to go into the world and research How He originated man, how He originated creation, what happened to the ancients, if people are telling the Truth or feeding us lies.

The Quran upholds the theory of Evolution, but with proof of Divine Intervention.

Strengthened joints ? walking upright
?We created them, and We strengthened their joints; and, when We will, We shall exchange their likes.? Surah 7628

See the signs left of original creation ? Fossil record
?Have they not seen how Allah originates creation, then brings it back again? Surely that is an easy matter for Allah.
?Say Journey in the land, then behold how He originated creation; then Allah causes the second growth to grow; Allah is powerful over everything,? Surah 2919-20

Nasi made from cell division, then progeny through intercourse Surah 326
?He is the Knower of the Unseen and the Visible, the All-mighty, the All-compassionate, Who has created all things well. And He originated the creation of man (al-insani) of clay (min teenin), then He fashioned his progeny of an extraction (sulalatin) of low (maheenin) water (ma-in), then He shaped (sawwahu) him, and breathed His spirit (roohihi) in him. And He appointed for you hearing, and sight, and hearts; little thanks you show.? Surah 326-9

There is only one Nasi spoken of in the Quran who was shaped and had Allah's ruh breathed into him - Adam (pbuh) Surah 1529, 329, 3872

If all human beings sprung from the joining of one couple, Allah would not make distinction between the bloodline of the Prophets (pbut), as we all would be from the seed of Adam (pbuh).

Seed of Adam Surah 333, 684, 7172, 1958
Men of mankind (rijalun mina al-insi), Men of jinn (birijalin mina aljinni) Surah 726

Earlier I spoke of Jinn as the Gentiles not of the Hebrew (Nasi) lineage. I get into numerous arguments with people - both Islamist and professed Muslims - who uphold the 'creation of fire' is proof they are spiritual creatures. Even the leading scholars in the Islamist sects and the Quranist sects - like the Code 19 Submitter Edip Yuksel - uphold Jinn are spirits/demons. Yet these same people profess to believe in the scientific miracles found within the Quran. It boggles my mind.

I need proof before I can believe. So I asked Allah to make clear to me what the Jinn are, since the Quran does not uphold them to be spiritual beings; only humans were sent as Messengers.

It was in searching for proof there is a Creator that Allah made clear to me Surah 2130

"Have not the unbelievers then beheld that the heavens and the earth were a mass all sewn up, and then We unstitched them and of water fashioned every living thing? Will they not believe?" Surah 2130

This is from the Arberry Quran, translated in 1950. The Yusuf Ali Quran, translated in the 1920s reads

"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?" Surah 2130

I cannot take credit for this, as I heard this from a professor in Mathematics, and it was in researching to see if this was true that it was made clear. If I am told something, I cannot believe blindly. I must confirm (saddaqat) to see if I am told the Truth or told a fabrication.

In 1978, the Nobel Prize was awarded for the theory of the Big Bang. This theory postulates that the universe was one mass - a monoblock - that was blown apart and sent out into the void.

Press release for 1978 Nobel Peace Prize
http//nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1978/press.html

"A theory developed by the American physicist Gamow and his associates suggested that this synthesis took place at the beginning of the existence of the universe. It is known from studies of the spectra of stars and galaxies that the universe is at present expanding uniformly. This means that at a certain point, 15 billion years ago, the universe was very compact; it is thus tempting to assume that the universe was created by a cosmic explosion, or 'big bang', although other explanations are possible. This 'big bang' theory implies the occurrence of very high temperatures, of about 10 billion degrees. Only at those temperatures can various nuclear reactions take place such that chemical elements could be built up from the elementary particles assumed to be present from the very beginning."

Here Scientists - the largest group of unbelievers I know of who cannot believe in something without proof - are showing how the components of all life and matter in the universe was created in this one Big Bang of intense heat and expansion.

Jinn created before Nasi of a released, scorching fire Surah 1527, 5515
?And He created (Wakhalaqa) the jinn of (aljanna min) release (marijin) of fire (min narin).? Surah 5515
?and the jinn created We before of fire scorching (alssamoomi).? Surah 1527

So while an Islamist sees evil fire creatures lurking in the aether, I see the intense heat of the Big Bang creating the components of all life itself.

But what about the creation of the universe? If Allah speaks of creation of life, won't I find creation of the galaxies such as the one we live in as well? The Quran states

"Then He directed Himself to the heaven and it is a vapor, so He said to it and to the earth Come both, willingly or unwillingly. They both said We come willingly." Surah 4111

The 1978 Press Release continues

"The question then remains of what would have happened to the debris of the explosion matter, consisting of hydrogen, helium and various other light elements, would have expanded as a hot cloud of gas which would gradually have cooled down to form condensations, which developed into galaxies and stars."

In 2010 the expansion of the radiation signature continues to confirm the theory of the Big Bang.

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang
"Based on the best available measurements as of 2010, the original state of the universe existed around 13.7 billion years ago, which is often referred to as the time when the Big Bang occurred. The theory is the most comprehensive and accurate explanation supported by scientific evidence and observations."

References
^ Komatsu, E.; et al. (2009). "Five-Year Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe Observations Cosmological Interpretation". Astrophysical Journal Supplement 180 (2) 330. Bibcode 2009ApJS..180..330K. doi10.1088/0067-0049/180/2/330.
^ Menegoni, E.; et al. (2009). "New constraints on variations of the fine structure constant from CMB anisotropies". Physical Review D 80 ( 087302. arXiv0909.3584. Bibcode 2009PhRvD..80h7302M. doi10.1103/PhysRevD.80.087302.
^ "Origins CERN Ideas The Big Bang". The Exploratorium. 2000. Retrieved 2010-09-03.
^ Keohane, J. (November 8, 1997). "Big Bang theory". Ask an astrophysicist. GSFC/NASA. Retrieved 2010-09-03.
^ Feuerbacher, B.; Scranton, R. (25 January 2006). "Evidence for the Big Bang". TalkOrigins. Retrieved 2009-10-16.
^ Wright, E.L. (9 May 2009). "What is the evidence for the Big Bang?". Frequently Asked Questions in Cosmology. UCLA, Division of Astronomy and Astrophysics. Retrieved 2009-10-16.

So opponents cannot tell me these ayats were retranslated to suit the discovery. Translations have been with us since the 1920s that uphold this discovery.

And as Surah 2130 states 'and of water fashioned every living thing', it wasn't until the microscope was discovered in the 1500s, and perfected in the 1700s, that the discovery was made At a cellular level, all living things are composed of water. Even viruses contain waters, as the 1950s studies into the Swine Flu virus proved.

Allah tells us repeatedly in the Quran to ask for proof. Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238
As a person who was misled by man, I have a right to ask for proof Proof that the Book I am told comes from our Creator truly has an Author that was there at the beginning of creation. The Quran provides this proof. Proof that has been with us for 1400 years, but lay unknown until Scientists - unbelievers - discovered this aspect of creation.

So when I look into the creation of man, I cannot see superstition and fairy tale. I see logical, reasonable explanations based on the sunnati Allahi - the way of Allah - that was started at the beginning of all things.

How can I not believe?

But I must say that I?ve always had a soft spot for Iblis. The rest of the Choir Invisible appeared to me as little better than mindless automatons without any self volition, without humanity. Here was someone who thought and behaved if not always correctly at least independently of the robotic angels. He was an individual. Not a mass produced thing on an assembly line. And as Mark Twain asked Of all the sinners of the globe, who is in more urgent need of prayer than the most deformed of spirit? The apposite response I?ve always felt was pity, not the hatred and vilification that is the everyday speech of Muslims.

Don't mistake service and obedience for automation. It is harder to sublimate the ego and humble ourselves than it is to serve our base desires. That is why it is called the uphill road in the Quran. Surah 9011-18

The greatest trick Iblis ever did was make you think he is you.

A pressing question Do you reject the existence of the devil as a corporeal entity?

Yes. There is only Allah. All the rest are His servants He is in control of.
How can I believe in a insubstantial boogey-man when Man has proven to be a far more insidious creation?

In a former life when I was a member of the Sword of the Infidel-Slayer Mosque, I demanded no evidence beyond what I read in the Hadith. I taught lessons in tajweed at the mosque which I now understand have no scriptural support. A pity really, for the Quran Aloners might not care for such things but I could break out in flights of Quranic recital that would make the angels dance and bliss rain from the sky. Since then I haven?t much seen a Quran for seven years. My brain has naturally been wiped clean of anything I memorised beyond the shorter chapters which by some reason remain firmly etched in my skull. I?m not even sure I even retain the capacity to read Arabic fluently.

Allah grants knowledge to whom He pleases. If you could read Arabic, and understand it, you are in a far better position to clarify and confirm (saddaqat) the Truth that is even now attempted to be covered over in numerous translations. Insha'Allah, you will read the Quran again, with rational, logical eyes based on reason and evidence.

I own 22 Qurans, included in that number is the Arabic revelation. Out of all of those, only 3 translations strive to stay true to the Arabic revelation, and even then there are biases in translation.
Don't think that this deters anyone from knowing the Truth or the deen. Good deeds are spoken of more often in the Quran than prayer, and all the commands of upholding salat, paying zakat, and doing the deeds of a believer are clear in every translation. It is in the allegory that you need to return to the Arabic revelation, as many strive to teach fairy tales and superstition instead of logic, reason, and evidence-based theory.

The Islamic period was a time of great scientific and philosophical advancements. Yet you can see when hadith took hold and the foundation of the Caliphate was rotted at the core, destroying the pursuit of knowledge in upholding superstitious belief.

My present theological convictions are that there is no cosmic tenant beyond the clouds, but the more I interact on this board the more I wonder if my flight of faith had not more to do with the bottomless superstitions of my own school of Muslim thought. I rejoice to learn that your convictions are less zany than the hadith crowd because I had read a good number of Bukhari volumes and found them, upon questing on a philosophical voyage, one notch above nursery rhymes like the tale of Moses encountering a running stone and how the Prophet split the moon in half and suchlike.

You speak of the splitting of the moon, and I am reminded of an Atheist who thought to ridicule me. I pointed him to the discovery made in the early 1900s, confirmed and proven to worsen in 2010

Dec. 14, 1904 - Prof. Pickering discovers cracks in the moon
http//query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00E10FD3A5C12738DDDAD0994DA415B848CF1D3

Surface cracks show the moon is shrinking
http//www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/7954686/Surface-cracks-show-the-Moon-is-shrinking.html

The moon is cracking, splitting its crust, as it shrinks over the aeons. This was discovered in 1902 and confirmed recently, along with additional fissures, in 2010.

"The Hour has drawn nigh the moon is split (wainshaqqa alqamaru)." Surah 541
The Quran shows the use of the word 'shaqqa' means 'fissures'.
"then We split (shaqaqna) the earth (al-arda) in fissures (shaqqan)." Surah 8026

The Prophet (pbuh) did not split the moon. It is a natural event according to the way of Allah that would also be a sign of the approaching Day of Judgment. Time and again the fairy-tale explanation is destroyed by logic, reason, and evidence-based research.

But the truth be told I have to say that I found the regimentation of the human spirit suffocating, the ban on music, painting, sculpture and the general arts. I won?t be the first to observe that your movement has something of the air of the Reformation for Luther, spotting the layer upon layer of Bible-free Church conventions, warred too against the accretions that had slowly crowded out the true Christian essence. But Luther was opposed to the arts no less and thundered against ornamental churches so perhaps the likeness is not quite apt.

How can we be opposed to the Arts when Allah has made clear it is not forbidden in the Quran? He repeats in the Quran to enjoy the bounties that are good and lawful He provides in the world. And following the example of all Prophets (pbut) and not focusing on one, the Quran clearly shows Solomon (pbuh) was given many bounties in the Arts and Sciences because of His service to our Creator.
You will find Muslims - those who uphold only what Allah revealed - are the defenders of Art, Music, and Science.
If someone seeks to forbid that which Allah has not, it is a warning sign from Him

"O you who believe, forbid not the good things which Allah has made lawful for you and exceed not the limits. Surely Allah loves not those who exceed the limits." Surah 587
"The hypocrites, men and women, are all alike. They enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands. They have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them. Surely the hypocrites are the transgressors." Surah 967

On that note, I am an Artist myself, blessed with talent by Allah. I paint, sculpt, and render in classical and technological mediums. I also have a degree in Film Production/Animation that Allah has given me, and I use those talents in my free-time to create these videos that I post here. And this is on top of my training in Medicine, as a Surgical Assistant earned while in the Military, which Allah has allowed me to earn provision over the years. So please don't think Muslims are stuffy, humorless Puritans seeking to forbid enjoyment. I am living proof that isn't the case.
Allah is bountiful to those who are grateful. )

Incidentally, I rather enjoy the length of your posts in the age where most cyber conversations consist of emoticon filled one liners. No, by all means pour the bucket over my head.

Remember you said that. )
I enjoy writing and composition, as it seems to be becoming more and more of a lost Art in this age of texting and tweeting.

Stray question Why does my cursor slow down when I'm composing a post? As I move it about to quote something it feels laboured. Is it a bug or just me?

This website seems memory-intensive. I have issues with browsers that are not updated, like Internet Explorer. I use Firefox and have fewer issues.

Again, I apologize for the depth of information, and I fear it is only touching on what I am shown by Allah as time constraints and length keep my replies to the point.
And again, I must restate Don't believe me just because I say it is so. Confirm everything I bring forth, to ensure I am not leading you astray. At one time you believed in Allah, so I ask that you once again ask Him to guide you and explain to you.
You are here for a reason; Allah brought you here to speak to all of us. Ask yourself what that question was that preceded your journey to this destination.

"Say 'Who is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth?' Say 'God.' Say 'Then have you taken unto you others beside Him to be your protectors, even such as have no power to profit or hurt themselves?' Say 'Are the blind and the seeing man equal, or are the shadows and the light equal? Or have they ascribed to God associates who created as He created, so that creation is all alike to them?' Say 'God is the Creator of everything, and He is the One, the Omnipotent.'" Surah 1316

I'm not a Quranist, I am a Muslim. That is the name Allah gave us in the Quran, so it is the name I use to describe myself.
Bear witness I submit my will to Allah. )

May Allah increase the believers in knowledge.

Peace.

[raginggaijin]

That video is tickly Jafar. True enough the concept of miracle working is for those with an IQ south of ten, but the idea is a recurrent theme in the Quran wouldn't you agree?

I thought abrogation was dealt with in Sura 2 Verse 106.

Allah abrogates previous Messages The Torah and the Injeel. The Quran does not abrogate itself. To do so would create a contradiction, which there are none in the Quran.

The Quran contains a falsification test

"What, do they not ponder the Quran? If it had been from other than God surely they would have found in it much inconsistency." Surah 482

This is a challenge Don't believe it comes from our Creator? Find a mistake.
This is a bold statement. Put this challenge on a test and turn it in to your Instructor, they won't sleep until they find a mistake. But here Allah is making those who disbelieve put their money where their mouth is Prove it doesn't come from Allah.
If the Quran abrogates itself, you would find a contradiction, which proves it doesn't come from Allah.
Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

Stray question Does the Quran specify how to perform Hajj or Zakah?

Yes.

Proof Zakat
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqNu7SzmLuI

Proof Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=i21uxpnjyXg

The rituals performed by the Islamists are not found in the Quran, but in the teachings of the ancients.

Syncretism Rituals of Hajj
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jY_6d7KBew

If you want the scripts that quote the proofs from the Quran, let me know.

Alhamdulillah. D

Peace.