throat slitting and halal slaughtering methods
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There are verses discussing ways in which animals cannot be killed.
Reading that sentence one can get the impression that animals can be made invincible in some ways. p
Suppose there's no step-by-step instruction regarding slaughtering animals for food in AQ. What do you think would be the best method to "convert" living animal meat (sorry Mushu) to human food?
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or does it ban stunning before slaughtering
AFAIK no.
And some "halal" slaughterhouses do stun cattle before slitting their throats, so, I guess it's okay even for traditionalists.
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Salam,
I would follow the Qur'an in it's entirety. I prefer a method that is the best according to our knowledge that Allah gave us through the pen. Consulting a scientist and expert on which method makes it easier for the animal (also accordance with Qur'an) is the way to go for me.
When we talk about Halal meat, we often focus only on the slaughtering. My sense of halal is not based on the slaughtering part alone. How can we keep a mammal in a cage from life to death, where it cant move at all. Isnt that cruelty ? From birth to death in a cage where it can barely move ? I reject to believe that this can be a process the most merciful would allow.
Allah knows best
PEACE
-------------- Student of Allah
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S
There are verses discussing ways in which animals cannot be killed.
I concur.
The Qur'aan does not really specify how animals should be slaughtered, but rather how animals should not be slaughtered.
(53) Forbidden unto you (for food) are carrion and blood and swine-flesh, and that which hath been dedicated unto any other than Allah, and the strangled, and the dead through beating, and the dead through falling from a height, and that which hath been killed by (the goring of) horns, and the devoured of wild beasts, saving that which ye make lawful (by the death-stroke), and that which hath been immolated unto idols. And (forbidden is it) that ye swear by the divining arrows. This is an abomination...
So a method of slaughter that does not involve the animals being strangled, beaten, fallen from a height, killed by horns and devoured by other animals, should be okay. I also lately contemplate though (here I am lacking Qur'aanic evidence), that we should also consider how an animal lives, and not just how an animal dies.
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When we talk about Halal meat, we often focus only on the slaughtering. My sense of halal is not based on the slaughtering part alone. How can we keep a mammal in a cage from life to death, where it cant move at all. Isnt that cruelty ? From birth to death in a cage where it can barely move ? I reject to believe that this can be a process the most merciful would allow.
You beat me to it. In factory farming that is prevalent in today's society, not only are the animals caged from birth to death, but they are also mutilated and injected with growth-hormones. Chicken as young as 6 weeks old have grown to the size of 26 weeks ones, to an extent where they cannot walk as their bone structures cannot support their mass. No access to natural light, hygiene or nutritious diets. I am not here to preach about not eating animals (I love my chicken, thank you), but lately it dawns on me how much we focus on how an animal dies, than how it lives. Also, so much emphasis on what is halaal, that we rarely consider about the "good and pure things" that we are commanded to eat (2172, 16114). So the way I understand it, we have to eat something that is BOTH halaal and good/pure.
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You beat me to it. In factory farming that is prevalent in today's society, not only are the animals caged from birth to death, but they are also mutilated and injected with growth-hormones. Chicken as young as 6 weeks old have grown to the size of 26 weeks ones, to an extent where they cannot walk as their bone structures cannot support their mass. No access to natural light, hygiene or nutritious diets. I am not here to preach about not eating animals (I love my chicken, thank you), but lately it dawns on me how much we focus on how an animal dies, than how it lives. Also, so much emphasis on what is halaal, that we rarely consider about the "good and pure things" that we are commanded to eat (2172, 16114). So the way I understand it, we have to eat something that is BOTH halaal and good/pure.
You should eat Wagyu beef then...
The cattle were routinely massaged.... what a lucky cattle...
That's also why it is so expensive..Salam / Peace
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You should eat Wagyu beef then...
The cattle were routinely massaged.... what a lucky cattle...
That's also why it is so expensive..Salam / Peace
Hahaha, I am glad that I am not much of a red-meat person (chicken and salmon all the way!). That being said, I heard that the cattle were given expensive sake too .
I think meloves my wallet more than Wagyu beef. Oh well, back to lettuce and carrots!
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It would be interesting to know if any form of stunning causes blood retention
AFAIK no.
And some "halal" slaughterhouses do stun cattle before slitting their throats, so, I guess it's okay even for traditionalists.
I read that they do it after the slaughter, makes no sense i know... different countries have different practices..
i tell ya what though it would be one tricky job. have you seen the neck of those animals? massive.
You should eat Wagyu beef then...
The cattle were routinely massaged.... what a lucky cattle...
That's also why it is so expensive..Salam / Peace
they're such docile creatures i wonder if they actually enjoy it, who really knows.
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I remember visiting relatives in Albania during Eid and we went to the market and purchased a sheep and a ram which their feet were bound lying in the hot afternoon sun. After taking them to the house I told a cousin to unbind and give them water to drink; then they laid them to their sides and cut their throats and we gave some to the poor.
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=22&verse=36
Peace
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All this talk of meat and the Quran is honestly making me a nice italian pork sausage. It's the only pork byproduct that I miss. Being able to order only 2 kinds of pizza I like isn't too much fun either. But yea. I think people look for too many step by step manuals inside the Quran. I worry next we'll be asking if karaoke is ok to do. It better be, cuz it's awesome.
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It would be interesting to know if any form of stunning causes blood retention
I read that they do it after the slaughter, makes no sense i know... different countries have different practices..
i tell ya what though it would be one tricky job. have you seen the neck of those animals? massive.
I've seen a vid on youtube about that method practiced in a "halal" slaughterhouse in Lebanon. Cattle gets stunned and then its throat gets slit. No visible sign of blood retention. Also, with a sharp knife and correct cutting techniques I believe throat-slitting won't be that hard.
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In another news, The Netherlands has just banned halal and kosher animal slaughter.
I've seen a vid on youtube about that method practiced in a "halal" slaughterhouse in Lebanon. Cattle gets stunned and then its throat gets slit. No visible sign of blood retention. Also, with a sharp knife and correct cutting techniques I believe throat-slitting won't be that hard.
Thoughts on this?
The UK Farm Animal Welfare Council says that the method by which Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals and it should be banned immediately. According to FAWC it can take up to two minutes for cattle to bleed to death, thus amounting to animal abuse. Compassion in World Farming also supported the recommendation saying "We believe that the law must be changed to require all animals to be stunned before slaughter." The UK government rejected its recommendations.
Various research papers on cattle slaughter collected by Compassion In World Farming mention that "after the throat is cut, large clots can form at the severed ends of the carotid arteries, leading to occlusion of the wound (or ?ballooning? as it is known in the slaughtering trade). Nick Cohen wrote in the New Statesman, "Occlusions slow blood loss from the carotids and delay the decline in blood pressure that prevents the suffering brain from blacking out. In one group of calves, 62.5 per cent suffered from ballooning. Even if the slaughterman is a master of his craft and the cut to the neck is clean, blood is carried to the brain by vertebral arteries and it keeps cattle conscious of their pain."via Wiki
There is also this paper on the benefits of ritual slaughter http//asidcom.org/IMG/pdf/ASIDCOM_report-Benefits_of_religious_slaughter.pdf
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Jack..
So people who kill animals to eat are worried the animal is going to feel pain from a halal/kosher slaughter?
is stunning supposed to be pain-free? what benefits other than less pain is there in stunning..
I've seen a vid on youtube about that method practiced in a "halal" slaughterhouse in Lebanon. Cattle gets stunned and then its throat gets slit. No visible sign of blood retention. Also, with a sharp knife and correct cutting techniques I believe throat-slitting won't be that hard.
no known visible sign of blood retention? i think the time from stunning and slaughter matters, e.g. if you stun it and kill it a few mins or hours later what difference is there?
AFAIK the big issues with halal slaughter is, what food the animal is eating i.e. is it good and pure, blood retention/clotting/maximum blood drainage and of course slaughtering it with good intentions..
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Jack..
So people who kill animals to eat are worried the animal is going to feel pain from a halal/kosher slaughter?
is stunning supposed to be pain-free? what benefits other than less pain is there in stunning..
no known visible sign of blood retention? i think the time from stunning and slaughter matters, e.g. if you stun it and kill it a few mins or hours later what difference is there?
AFAIK the big issues with halal slaughter is, what food the animal is eating i.e. is it good and pure, blood retention/clotting/maximum blood drainage and of course slaughtering it with good intentions..
Beating an animal to death causes hematomas in the muscle tissue; retained blood from broken vessels.
You can't drain the meat of blood when it is bruised.http//www.umm.edu/graphics/images/es/19675.jpg
Allah does not forbid something for an obscure religious reason. Allah forbids or warns us because it is bad for us.
Peace.
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Wait..
Flashback to 2011 the club wasn't the only tool we had for stunning.
Alternatives Electric stun gun (I think this is what Andya and Jack meant anyway); Anesthesia (used in poultry slaughterhouses).
A quick look at this article from wikipedia-makes-you-look-smarter (last modified on 29 June 2011 at 1910) gives you a glimpse to the restraining and stunning process (follow the link in the picture to the right).
The slaughterhouse process differs by species and region and may be controlled by civil law as well as religious laws such as Kosher and Halal laws. A typical procedure follows
- Cattle (mostly steers and heifers, some cows, and even fewer bulls) are received by truck or rail from a ranch, farm, or feedlot.
- Cattle are herded into holding pens.
- Cattle are rendered unconscious by applying an electric shock of 300 volts and 2 amps to the back of the head, effectively stunning the animal, or by use of a captive bolt pistol to the front of the cow's head (a pneumatic or cartridge-fired captive bolt). Swine can be rendered unconscious by CO2/inert gas stunning. (This step is prohibited under strict application of Halal and Kashrut codes.)
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.. i never mentioned beating to death.
someone hastily misquoted you /
AFAIK the big issues with halal slaughter is, what food the animal is eating i.e. is it good and pure, blood retention/clotting/maximum blood drainage and of course slaughtering it with good intentions..
Agreed. Furthermore, the way the animals live actually determine the nutrition content of their cells produce. All the worlds need to do is wait for the scientists to announce, 'People, looks like animals are actually living beings!'.
The way the Wagyus are bred, fed, and treated should've been set as international standard (OK... minus massaging and sake--but I think treadmills are acceptable). Genetics? Still think genetics are given? Ask the Wagyu ancestors' ancestors.
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The Quran actually does imply that animals have Allah's name mentioned over them before they are killed and the vocabulary it uses implies that an animal die by having it's throat or jugular split. Here are two postings on the forum over at www.quranists.com that deal with this
Here is an article from www.quranicteachings.co.uk that addresses the issue and
details the passage that Julie and I were having trouble finding. In general i
recommend this site and feel that it is an excellent Quranist site, although I
do not agree with everything I read here I still do approve of the site. I aslo
agree with 2236's interpretation of sawaffa (plural of saaffun or saaffatun
which implies being in some sort of ranking or lined up) as 'in lines for
sacrifice' because the next passage explicitly implies the animals being on
their sides, dead after slaughter and in a state where they can then be
consumed. The phrase is 'wa idhaa wajabat junoobuhaa' I had to look up wajaba
because usually implies an obligation, but lisanul-arab enlightened me. It can
also mean 'to die' or 'to fall to the ground.' Junoob is the plural of janb
which means 'side', it has a few other meanings but the ones that I saw that fit
were sides or part or majority of a thing. It is said that that the expression
wajabat al-junoobu specifies 'its souls have left' i.e. it's not longer alive.
Here's the articleMentioning the Name of Allah before Slaughtering animals
Is it necessary to mention the name of Allah before slaughtering animals?
It may not be an issue in countries where the majority of people are muslims
because it is a norm there to mention the name of Allah when slaughtering
animals for the purpose of eating their meat. However, in countries where
non-muslims are in majority, this is sometimes an important issue. Some people
think that it is not necessary to mention the name of Allah while slaughtering
an animal but it is enough if we mention Allah's name just before eating their
meat provided that the animal was not the Forbidden one. This article looks into
the issue in the light of the Quran.Please consider the following verses
54 They ask you (O Prophet) what foods are Permissible. Tell them all good
things of life are Lawful to you. As for the hunting animals, the catch of your
trained dogs and falcons, as Allah has taught you, is Permissible. Mention
Allah's name thereupon. Always be mindful of Allah's Laws. His Law of Requital
is swift in reckoning.6118 Eat, then, of that over which the name of ALLAH has been mentioned
6121 And eat NOT of that on which the name of ALLAH has not been mentioned
6138 And they say, `Such and such cattle and crops are forbidden. None shall
eat thereof save whom we please' - so they assert - and there are cattle whose
backs are forbidden (for riding), and there are cattle over which they mention
not the name of ALLAH, forging a lie against HIM. Soon will HE requite them for
that which they have fabricated.2228 So that they might see with their own eyes and experience what benefits
the Divine System holds for them and mention Allah's Name collectively during
the specified days of Hajj; and over the livestock He has bestowed upon them?2234 And to every community We have ordained rites that they might extol the
Name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from the livestock?.2236 And the camels! We have appointed them among the symbols (of obedience) to
Allah; in them is much good for you. So mention Allah's Name over them when they
are drawn up in lines (for sacrifice).If we see all the above 7 verses carefully, in 5 of the above verses (54,
6138, 2228, 2234, 2236), the mentioning of the name of Allah is with regards
to cattle or livestock or animals. Obviously, we do not eat just meat but also
other things and we are supposed to say BISMILLAH before eating anything; not
just before eating but also before embarking upon any task .
The fact that Allah has specifically mentioned the mentioning of the name of
Allah with regards to animals, suggests that it refers to the time of
slaughtering of these animals and not just before eating anything.Now if we see carefully the verses 6118, 6121 (in which the context is not
clear whether the reference is to animals or otherwise), there is another key
point to note. The addressee in the verses is the second person YOU, but the
mentioning of the name of Allah is in THIRD PERSON (passive voice). See the
verses again as belowYOU eat of that over which the name of Allah HAS BEEN MENTIONED
YOU do not eat over which the name of Allah HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED
This also suggests that the mentioning the name of Allah seems to refer here not
to the time of eating but to time of slaughtering which is usually by a THIRD
person.A question may come to mind that why is it necessary to mention the name of
Allah at the time of slaughtering an animal. Is there a logical point here? One
possible logic of mentioning the name of Allah at the time of slaughtering an
animal is that the person who is slaughtering must bear in mind and commemorate
that Allah is Great and it is He Who is the True Giver of Life and Death and any
thought does not cross the mind of the person who is slaughtering the animal
that he is actually in control of life and death.1606-2004
So I've been going through the meaning of dhabh. It's principal meaning is to
cut the neck at an area called the naseel which is the point of separation
between the head and the neck, underneath the lower jaws.Its derivative words mean to split (apart or open) and one I saw for to strangle. They also
had to do with pain in the neck or with the neck in
general. Only two words had definite meanings of to kill no matter how.
Adh-dhabaahu and adh-dhibhu/Adh-dhubhu. The first means killing no matter how and the second
meant someone/thing that has been killed.It would seem that the meaning of 'to kill' comes from the meaning of to split
open or apart. Because Lisanul Arab says that Adh-dhabhu in its root or original meaning is to split
up/off part.So it would seem that the verb being used to to kill people is actually more of
an idiomatic usage, taking the idea of splitting people apart and using that
expression to mean to kill. However, the word's literal meaning is cutting the
neck at a certain point which is reserved mostly for animals.God will not punish us for the things we do when we do not know and what is
truly in our hearts is what matters. The Quran forbids the eating of meat that
has died in a couple of ways, by a blow, strangling or a fall. I have eaten
regular supermarket meat many a time and I always had the understanding of as
long as God's name was pronounced over it before I ate it, it didn't matter how it was killed.
But it would seem that from a few passages of the Quran not only does it matter
that God's name be mentioned over the body of the animal when it is killed but
that it not die by a blow from a bullet round or even a hammer. There is
something called nahr which is included along with dhubh under tadhkiyah. It
involves stabbing the animal in the chest, either where the neck meats the chest
in camels or just the chest in general. I find this interesting because i have
seen in the Dominican republic that they often slaughter animals by
stabbing them in the heart.Anyway I won't get too gory. I know some of you can't stand the thought of
killing animals. I personally recommend just slicing the jugular very quickly
and letting the animals bleed out. I have seen that nahr in camels causes
massive bleeding, which is good for not consuming the flowing blood of the veins
with the meat that we eat and causing quick unconsciousness in the animal.
I don't know if this works well with cattle, which is
why sourcing the vein (this can be done with a rope around the animals neck like
when the doctor sticks a band around your arm to force your vein up) and slicing it quickly is important.
This way the animal suffers very minimally while it bleeds
out and loses consciousness. This can even be done with a sharp pricking
apparatus. I have seen it done with the point of an arrow by the Masai for
collecting cow's blood. The cow remained very calm throughout the procedure.I've said all this because I think many of us do not really understand the
Arabic words used in the Quran and what they imply. The passage about saying
God's name upon slaughter is found in 638 the passage that talks about Arab
supersition as it concerns when certain animals had twins or still-bornes. It
says that they exempted certain animals from having God's name mentioned over
them.
In the end we all must be healthy. That is why sourcing halal food is so
important. But if you cannot and you feel that your health is at risk by not
eating the meat that is available to you then this is not willful disobedience
and I'm sure God will forgive you for this. I see this issue as a sin of minor
proportions but one that we should avoid if we can.I'm sure I have made alot of you vegetarians today. Sorry for that. However I
felt the topic should be addressed.Godbless,
Anwar -
The Quran actually does imply
I do not follow implication. I follow that which is clear.
Before you eat, mention the name of Allah over the food Allah has provided you.
You will not be asked what others do. You will only be asked what you did.
"That is a nation that has passed away; there awaits them that they have earned, and there awaits you that you have earned; you shall not be questioned concerning the things they did." Surah 2134
"That is a nation that has passed away; there awaits them that they have earned, and there awaits you that you have earned; you shall not be questioned concerning the things they did." Surah 2141
"If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but He leads astray whom He will, and guides whom He will; and you will surely be questioned about the things you wrought." Surah 1693
"And pursue not that thou hast no knowledge of; the hearing, the sight, the heart -- all of those shall be questioned of." Surah 1736
Say 'You will not be questioned concerning our sins, neither shall we be questioned as to what you do.'" Surah 3425
Allah is very specific on what food is forbidden, and what is not. No where in the Quran does it forbid us to eat the meat where Allah's name is not mentioned at the time of slaughtering. We are only forbidden food that another name beside Allah is mentioned over, flesh of swine, carrion, and blood. Surah 53, 6145
"Say 'I do not find, in what is revealed to me, aught forbidden to him who eats thereof except it be carrion, or blood outpoured, or the flesh of swine -- that is an abomination -- or an ungodly thing that has been hallowed to other than God; yet whoso is constrained, not desiring nor transgressing, surely thy Lord is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.'" Surah 6145
Allah makes it clear we are to be grateful to Him by mentioning His name over the provision He gives us. Proof is given in the ayats you posted.
Forbid not what is good Surah 394, 587, 6140, 967, 1059-60
"O you who believe, forbid not the good things which Allah has made lawful for you and exceed not the limits. Surely Allah loves not those who exceed the limits." Surah 587
"The hypocrites, men and women, are all alike. They enjoin evil and forbid good and withhold their hands. They have forsaken Allah, so He has forsaken them. Surely the hypocrites are the transgressors." Surah 967
I am not a Quranist. I am a Muslim. Surah 2278
Peace.
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Ragingaijin,
You totally miss the point. The Quran clearly states that saying that animals are exempt from God's name being mentioned over them upon slaughter, no matter what the reason is erroneous, which shows that mentioning God's name at slaughter is apart of mentioning God's name over what we consume. The fact that you focused on one word 'implied' instead of understanding the meat of the matter (no pun intended) is disheartening, and shows stubbornness on your part. And then there is the defintion of slaughter dhakkaa or dhabh. 53 states a number of injuries that animals can sustain that would make them forbidden to eat (if they died this way) unless there is tadhkiyah, which is to under take dhakaah. From Lisanul-Arab under the root dhakaa
Al-dhakaa'u and al-dhakaatu Dhabh (slaughter by way of the naseel, a point between the neck and under the jawbone). This is from Tha'lab. And the Arabs say "Dhakaah of the fetus is dhakaah of the mother", meaning if you perform dhabh on the mother this is perfroming dhabh on the fetus as well. Concerning this saying about the dhakaah of the fetus being dhakaah of the mother, Ibn Al-Atheer says Takdhiyah is both Dhabh and Nahr (Nahr is stabbing the neck (what is above the chest). It is said dhakayta al-shaata tadhkiyyatan (You performed tadhkiyyah on the sheep excellently/in a complete or superb manner). And the name of this is Al-dhakaah. the one who is slaughtered (madhbooh having dhabh performed) (using the term dhakaah) is dhakeey..
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.So, either by way of cutting the animal at the point below the jaw that meets the necko r by stabbing him at some point above its chest is how we are to slaughter animals according to the Quran, as it forbids us from eating an animal killed in other ways, that would consist of strangulation, a blow, falling or mangling by predatory animals. The verse can also imply that only what we perform tadhkiyah on is lawful. I will go into that in a following commentary.
Btw, a Quranist is a Muslim, but then again so are Sunnis, Shiites and Sufis. Or would you dare to claim that they are not even Muslims? I would not go so far and prefer to say that they are misguided Muslims. Would you say that Trinitarians are not Christians, or rather misguided ones? All in all, the word Islam does not mean 'submission to God,' and has to be used in context with God for it to even imply (there goes that word again) that. For example, "God created the heavens and the earth, and the only religion he accepts is submission." Here through the use of CONTEXT the submission can be understood as to God. Otherwise the word submission, i.e. Islam has not connection to God. Otherwise it just means 'being at peace/safe, making peace, sumbitting, paying early, handing over to.' That's about it. So Islam has no special definition in Arabic that associates it with God innately. Not like Christian, a name which automatically creates an association to Christ. However, there is a modern, POST-QURANIC, NON-QURANIC meaning of the word, and it encompasses all those who claim to follow Muhammad (sas) and the revelation give to him. Whether they do that mistakenly or not will always be a mattter of debate unfortunately. But what you are doing is similar to what Evangelicals do when they say that Catholics aren't really Christians.
Godbless,
Anwar