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Salaam Wakas,
peace mmkhan, they were present in the other copy. You can also see them online here for example.
Alhamdulillah, Allah is great.
Thank you for the link brother, and those are scanned images of the same AlQuraan, not typed one.
May Allah guide us all to His path and increase us in knowledge. pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
peace mmkhan,
I did an investigation into "sabeeli Allahi" with a phonetic search to see if it used elsewhere as you suggest in 316, i.e. "they take it (sabeeli Allahi) as X" with X being any word and I did not find any other example.
There is also maybe another way to investigate this and that is to see if "and takes it..." is used elsewhere with a non-real-world object (in this case "sabeeli Allahi". From my preliminary check it only referred to real-world objects, but I did not check it thoroughly. Perhaps the only contrary example was 7146.I hope that makes sense.
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Salaam Wakas,
peace mmkhan,
I did an investigation into "sabeeli Allahi" with a phonetic search to see if it used elsewhere as you suggest in 316, i.e. "they take it (sabeeli Allahi) as X" with X being any word and I did not find any other example.
There is also maybe another way to investigate this and that is to see if "and takes it..." is used elsewhere with a non-real-world object (in this case "sabeeli Allahi". From my preliminary check it only referred to real-world objects, but I did not check it thoroughly. Perhaps the only contrary example was 7146.I hope that makes sense.
Yes, I think the only contrary example is 7146.
May Allah increase us in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. khan -
peace all,
Thanks for the replies. Here is my input
Then generations/successors came after them who neglected/wasted the salat, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.
In The Quran, following of desires is always contrasted to following God's guidance, i.e. revelation. This is obvious considering desires come from oneself, whereas revelation comes from God. The opposite of neglect is to be mindful and the opposite of waste is to save/utilise well, so we can reason that salat is likely to involve be mindful and utilise God's guidance.
I am of the view the "it" more likely refers to "salat" than to "sabeel Allah" and here is why
ALM
These are the signs of the book of wisdom.
A guide and a mercy for the good doers.
Those who uphold the salat, and give forth zakat/betterment and regarding the Hereafter they are certain.
These are on a guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful ones.
And from the people, there are those who exchange/purchase an idle narration to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and take it as mockery/entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.
And when Our revelations are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he did not hear them, as if there is a deafness in his ears. So announce to him a painful retribution.When you "exchange/purchase" something, you give something and get something back. So what is being exchanged above? Well, it is clear that what is being exchanged/purchased is an "idle/baseless narration" which misleads. The opposite of that would be a "sound/truthful narration which guides" which just so happens to be the context of the verses. A person exchanges this for an idle/baseless narration, and takes "it" as mockery/entertainment. In 316 is "it" "sabeel Allah" or referring to "salat"? The next verse 317 may give us a clue. Ponder.
Part 4
A pivotal verse. What information about salat can we extract from 1187?
They said "O Shu'ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers serve, or that we leave doing what we will with our money? Surely you are the clement, the sound-minded!"
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Peace
In 316 is "it" "sabeel Allah" or referring to "salat"? The next verse 317 may give us a clue. Ponder.
317 suggests that they take the recitation of the verses as mockery/entertainment.
Part 4
A pivotal verse. What information about salat can we extract from 1187?
They said "O Shu'ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers serve, or that we leave doing what we will with our money? Surely you are the clement, the sound-minded!"
It suggests that Salat is concerned with some form of guidance or revelation or narration.
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You said
So, I would like you to think about what information would be required in The Quran for us to carry out salat(s) during the day. This is a deceptively simple question but it should get you to think about the basic requirements of information that we would need to actually carry out what The Quran tells us to do.
Deceptively simple question? Just like how long is a piece of string?
The basic required information you have summaries in a lovely list... http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/quran_on_salat.htm
To break it down more besides specific times (ones that stand out to me )involve
- one can seek help through the salat
- salat can involve speaking and one should know what one is saying (i.e. have a clear head, not intoxicated).
- One should be clean before coming near the salat.
- uphold the salat for the remembrance/mentioning of God
And
17110 (Asad) Say "Invoke God, or invoke the Most Gracious by whichever name you invoke Him, His are all the attributes of perfection. And be not tooloud in thy prayer nor speak it in too low a voice, but follow a way in-between
salat is a form of remembering God, we seek help/guidance from God, we should be conscious/aware of what is said, clean and say our salat in a moderate tone.
So you need to know how to be clean, how to remember god, what you plan on saying and saying it in a moderate tone.
Part 3
People uphold salat, people make mocker out of it, people neglect salat and follow desire.
Part 4
They said "O Shu'ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers serve, or that we leave doing what we will with our money? Surely you are the clement, the sound-minded!"
We know we should cease what our fathers or forefathers did/do if it goes against the deen( 2170? 923?). Also, we know our possessions /wealth are a blessing upon us. We should spend rightfully and give to the ones who need, the one who asks, family etc (2195, 2215, 2262, 9310). What?s the pivotal concept?
Similarity to shuaybs people salih?s people were not prepared to give up what their forefathers worshipped
1162 (Asad) They answered "O Salih! Great hopes did we place in thee ere this! Wouldst thou forbid us to worship what ourforefathers were wont to worship? Because , behold, we are in grave doubt, amounting to suspicion, about thy call to us!
possibly salat would stop them from serving what their fathers served if they are on the true path because salat is for dhikr allah..
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salam wakas & all,
my personal understanding of 1187 is as follows
They said, ?Shu?ayb, does your salat/relationship command you to make us avoid what our fathers serve, or to make us avoid doing what we will with our possessions? Surely you are the gentle of the right-minded!?
'salat'/relationship here refers specifically to the relationship with God. some people take it to mean 'communion' with God.
the notes by SarahY should provide some pointers, and i quote"
To break it down more besides specific times (ones that stand out to me )involve
- one can seek help through the salat
- salat can involve speaking and one should know what one is saying (i.e. have a clear head, not intoxicated).
- One should be clean before coming near the salat.
- uphold the salat for the remembrance/mentioning of God
so in our 'salat'/relationship or 'communion' with God, we must communicate, especially by speech (refer the prerequisite for speaking with God).
in the qur-an we learn that all prophets spoke with God. whether God spoke to them or otherwise is another matter. in fact we cannot even expect that God will surely speak with us (4251).
i suppose the above is enough just for the time being.
cheers
mohammed noh
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peace all,
Thanks for the replies, however, it seems the crucial part I was aiming to highlight did not come to the fore.
Lets study
"O Shu'ayb, does your salat order you that we leave what our fathers serve, or that we leave doing what we will with our money? Surely you are the clement, the sound-minded!"The crucial part
"... does YOUR salat ORDER YOU that WE LEAVE what our fathers serve, or that we leave doing what we will with our money..."Now, if we insert the common understanding of "prayer" it results in a very awkward and perhaps impossible translation. No-one today receives orders through their own prayer, let alone orders that tell others what to serve/spend etc.
Many traditional commentators simply do not explain this point. Most say they said this to Shuayb mockingly, which is true, but do not say much else - this does not explain the usage. Other translators twist the translation and insert "ways of prayer" or "religion" for "salat" - again, this does not really explain the usage.
Interestingly, no Traditional commentator used the explanation of since Shu'ayb was a prophet he could receive communication from God during his salat, similar to 339 - which at least sounds plausible, however does not quite explain it.
Interestingly, Ibn Kathir offers two explanations, one of which is, and I quote from qtafsir.com "(Does your Salah) Al-A`mash said, "This means your reading.''
But whatever way it is explained, it is quite clear that if one takes it as "prayer" it does not apply to us because no-one receives orders in their prayer that tell others what to do.
Thus one should ponder on the possibilities of this usage and what it tells us.
Part 5.
One can seek help through the salat
In what ways can one seek help through something?
So, it doesn't really matter what you see salat as, but list the ways one can seek help through something. Bearing in mind salat could be individual and communal. You can also consider the Classical Arabic meanings mentioned previously as part of your reply. -
Peace be upon you,
I hope I can participate in this class. Al salaat is the most important concept to grasp because it is the number one response of those in the "fire" as to why they are there (which says a lot).
I will try to stay on focus...
... does YOUR salat ORDER YOU that WE LEAVE what our fathers serve, or that we leave doing what we will with our money..."
What is it that Orders you? A Program. Just like a computer, it is guided by that which is Programmed into it.
It is YOUR program because each person is programmed with different sets of conditionings. The goal is for us all to get back on God's program. It is the Nafs(subconcious) that we are actually programming(salaat). Your subconcious is always throwing ideas and images into your sphere of awareness. All you have to do to verify this is try to sit still with your eyes close and not think of ANYTHING. Very soon you will find that you are thinking about something. As you continue to do this verification exercise, you will realize their is a part of your being that throws thoughts in your mind that you don't control directly. So, for example, if you programmed your subconcious(nafs) to enjoy smoking a cigarette after dinner and you decided that one day you wanted to quit, do you think the thoughts will stop ORDERING YOU to take "just one more"?
- one can seek help through the salat
Yes salaat(programming) and patience, because it will take time for you to properly put the program in place. It is a process of repitition. If someone you met in the street gave you a phone number to REMEMBER(key word), and you had nothing to write with, what would you do? Start saying the number over and over again. And this is how we change our behavior, by programming(salaat) our subconcious(nafs) so that it ORDERS us to do the correct things. So, when we awaken at dawn and get into that peaceful state of mind just between awake and sleep(day and night merge), we program our subconcious to reject cigarettes, and after time(patience and salaat), it will start to work.
- salat can involve speaking and one should know what one is saying (i.e. have a clear head, not intoxicated).
certainly want to be clear about what you put in your subconcious because it will be that which ORDERS your life.
- One should be clean before coming near the salat.
literally and symbolically. programming is mainly followed by "zakaat" because it is purification of the nafs(subconcious) that we are doing. Getting rid of the junk ideas and beliefs, replacing them with Godly ones.
- uphold the salat for the remembrance/mentioning of God
yes, the REMEMBRANCE! There is that word remember again. By establishing and maintaining(aquimu?) the correct program, we remember God, or remember the nature of God upon which we were created and neeed to get back to. What do you do to remember that phone number? repetition! So maintain your programming, and bring forth purification! )
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Peace be upon you,
That was supposed to be a smiley face at the end, sorry.
(2110) And maintain the programming/conditioning and bring forth the purification and what you advance to your subconcious(nafs) from goodness, you find it at The God, truly the God (is) with what you do, seeing.
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Hi Wakas,
I'd like to join the salat class if possible. Unless you direct me otherwise, I'll work through all of the postings to date.
Peace,
Joel -
Peace be upon you,
Ok, let me start at the beginning.
Honestly, looking at the list of words, it looks like it is split in two, one with the prayer/blessing/supplication aspect, and the other the follow closely, remain attached aspect.
Only after the study I have put into this concept do I lean towards the follow closely/remain attached aspect of it. I think the prayer stuff was added later.
Man must follow God's pattern closely, which requires a means of changing behavior, because that is what it is about.
But really I am just making that fit, my understanding of salaat comes from the study of the verses rather than the meanings in the dictionary.
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Peace be upon you,
Part 2
So, I would like you to think about what information would be required in The Quran for us to carry out salat(s) during the day.
I think the timing is clear that it is dawn and dusk...the how is a bit more complex as I believe this reading(quran) points us to al kitaab(life itself) to work out the details. It is Al Kitaab that is fully detailed, not al quran. So when we start gathering the peices of the puzzle, we go to life and see what things in life are doing what we need to be done. How does a human change its behavior, what goes on scientifically? As we move along I will explain more. I am trying my best to stay within the confines of this discussion but my views follow a different path and I hope you will have patience with me as we go along
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Peace be upon you,
Part 3
I am going to put the verses the way I understand them
These are the signs of the book of wisdom.
A guide and a mercy for the good doers.
Those who maintain the programming, and bring forth purification and regarding the ending they are certain.------being certain about the ending is to have faith that one reaps what one sows....the ending is the reaping rime..only one who is certain about the reaping will be serious about the sowing. Salaat is the beginning of the whole process, the programming of the nafs on the correct path so that we begin to sow the correct seeds.-------
These are on a guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful ones.
-------The successful ones....God tells us those who purify the nafs succeed and those who corrupt it fail...so here again the successful are spoken of in relation to salaat. You will find the nafs is closely connected as we go along.------
And from the people, there are those who exchange/purchase an idle narration to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and take it as mockery/entertainment. These will have a humiliating retribution.
And when Our revelations are recited to him, he turns away arrogantly as if he did not hear them, as if there is a deafness in his ears. So announce to him a painful retribution.---speaks of people who come with all kinds of foolishness about this system...when God's revelations are recited to them they turn away instead of turning towards them. We should take heed and use the info to program our spirits/subconcious(nafs)
Then generations/successors came after them who neglected/wasted the salat, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.
---they followed their desires....the emotions that push you to do things(energy in motion)...your Nafs is like a garden, it will grow whatever seed you plant, or whatever seed your culture or environment plants. If you are not planting God's seeds, then the seeds from Jerry Springer show, Cheaters, Basketball wives, real housewives of this and that...hip hop music, all this foolishness will grow. Later this will explain the meaning of GUARD your programmig(salaat)
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Peace be upon you,
I already started of answering 4 and 5, so I will wait for the next step
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I would like you to consider what themes/concepts/ideas these meanings have in common, if any. Then put your thoughts here. There are no right or wrong answers as such, just whatever you think.
As an extra question, out of the underlined words, if you had to choose one that felt like the odd one out (i.e. the most different), which one would you choose and why.Think Out of all the roots in the Arabic language, AQ chose to use saad-lam-waw. Ask yourself why.
A 21 day time period in which to respond will be in place. I think this will be sufficient.
I personally think that the most common theme is the idea of speaking to or about something that has already happened or is already happening. With the exception of the typical meanings of prayer and petition, all of the other meanings seem to be about what good things a person would say in response to something good that has already happened. Despite the modern connotation of a speech at a funeral, the word eulogy comes from the greek prefix "eu-" , "good", and "logos", "word/idea/concept". It is literally a good word given on behalf of someone or something.
While I could be wrong, I think the use of salat in the Quran instead of other words is there to prevent the practice of magical prayer. Magic, in my opinion, is any thought, word, or deed aimed at getting a force or forces to change something about the world that we want. It is aimed at getting us what we want, while we remain unchanged in the process and are no closer to identifying with the force that changed the world on our behalf. In my days as a Christian, most of what I was taught about prayer was really the practice of magic. Salat does not allow this because I think it speaks to an act of submission. We speak well of God and his established works. As sura 1 says, "...lead us on the straight path..." The path is already there. All that remains is for us to follow it.
Just my $0.02.
-Joel -
peace be upon you Joel,
the word eulogy comes from the greek prefix "eu-" , "good", and "logos", "word/idea/concept".
yes, the good word we give to our nafs in order to purify it. We are made according to the pattern of God..God creates with the word, as do we. But what thoughts(words) do we constantly program into ourselves knowingly or unknowingly. What beleifs have we formed that shape our lives?
