Like Polytheist ingrates, atheists too are running away from 19 like zebras

[KDC501]

Mr. Raging,
So is your stress level high after typing that long nonsensical discourse? Just so you know I am not going back to subjects that I have already clearly given an answer to (several times) Also you still haven't given me a clear answer with proof to my question. All you have done is brought more irrelevant questions to the topic. The question still stands What is the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Suras? You (nor anyone else ) haven't shown what is there meaning and purpose in the Quran.
You haven't given me a proper answer as yet.

261 T. S. M.
262 These are the signs of the manifest/clarifying book.

151 A.L.R, these are the signs of the Scripture, and a clear Qur'an.

311 A.L.M.
312 These are the signs of the book of wisdom.

271 T'.S, these are the signs of the Qur'an and a clear Scripture.

101 A.L.R, these are the signs of the Scripture of wisdom.

[raginggaijin]

Mr. Raging,
So is your stress level high after typing that long nonsensical discourse?

You call the signs from the Quran 'nonsensical discourse'? I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant.
I find study of the Quran to be relaxing actually. )

"Those who believe, their hearts being at rest in God's remembrance -- in God's remembrance are at rest the hearts." Surah 1328

Just so you know I am not going back to subjects that I have already clearly given an answer to (several times) Also you still haven't given me a clear answer with proof to my question. All you have done is brought more irrelevant questions to the topic. The question still stands What is the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Suras? You (nor anyone else ) haven't shown what is there meaning and purpose are in the Quran.
You haven't given me a proper answer as yet.

An answer was given, with proof to support it. You choose to not accept it.

One reason the initials are there is to lead those who disbelieve astray.

The disbelievers ascribe Gematria - Jewish mystic teachings of satans - to them. Do you say this is false? If you cannot say it is false, why are you following satanic teachings?

Proof is given they uphold teachings of Jewish Mystics in their own Quran translations, reciting their source "'Studies in Jewish Mysticism' (page 88, 1982)". Do you deny this? Do you have proof this is false? If you cannot deny this, why do you uphold teachings of Jewish Mystics that Allah did not reveal?

Rashad Khalifa in his translation admits upholding these teachings on page 636, Appendix 1. Rashad Khalifa gives the 'Gematrical Value on the Arabic Alphabet' on page 617, Table 7. He even admits they are teachings from the Hebrew and Greeks - stating it is 'a universal system'. Do you deny this is his teaching? If you do not, why do you uphold teachings of Kabbalist satans that Allah did not reveal?

Edip Yuksel in his translation admits admits upholding these teachings on page 544, Appendix 3.
Both men invite to teachings of satans Kabbalist teachings of sorcery and delusion. Kabbalist Gematria. Can you deny this? Do you have proof Gematria is commanded to be followed in the Quran? Where is your authority to follow these teachings?

Taken from Code 19-Submitters website, proving their upholding Gematria and hadith
http//www.submission.org/suras/app25.html

Al-Suyooty's ITQAAN, First Printing, 1318 AH, Vol 2, Page 10
"The Jews of Medina went to the Prophet and said, "Your Quran is initialed with A.L.M., and these Initials determine the life span of your religion. Since A' is 1, L' is 30, and M' is 40, this means that your religion will survive only 71 years." Muhammad said, "We also have A.L.M.S." They said, "The A' is 1, the L' is 30, the M' is 40, and the S' is 90. This adds up to 161. Do you have anything else?" The Prophet said, "Yes, A.L.M.R." They said, "This is longer and heavier; the A' is 1, L' is 30, M' is 40, and `R' is 200, making the total 271." They finally gave up, saying, "We do not know how many of these Initials he was given!" "

You made your choice.

You cannot provide proof to support your claims, nor can you refute what is shown. If you choose to uphold the teachings of Rashad Khalifa and Edip Yuksel until your appointed term, your reward is made clear in the Quran.

"and they follow what the Satans recited over Solomon's kingdom. Solomon disbelieved not, but the Satans disbelieved, teaching the people sorcery, and that which was sent down upon Babylon's two angels, Harut and Marut; they taught not any man, without they said, 'We are but a temptation; do not disbelieve.' From them they learned how they might divide a man and his wife, yet they did not hurt any man thereby, save by the leave of God, and they learned what hurt them, and did not profit them, knowing well that whoso buys it shall have no share in the world to come; evil then was that they sold themselves for, if they had but known." Surah 2102

"Surely Allah does not forgive that anything should be associated with Him, and forgives what is besides that to whomsoever He pleases; and whoever associates anything with Allah, he devises indeed a great sin." Surah 448

This series of discussions has been slowly showing everyone who comes behind what Rashad Khalifa and Edip Yuksel truly teach Gematria of Kabbalah, sorcery of Babylon.
With it they will lead many astray. But the believers, the satans have no power over them.

I have made my case and presented my evidence as to why I cannot believe as you believe, and why I speak out against the teachings of these men. Let those who come behind seek guidance from Allah and confirm everything that is brought forth today, lest they be led astray by false discourse or flowery speech.

Bring your proof Surah 2111, 657, 842, 1410, 2124, 2764, 2875, 5238

All knowledge comes from Allah, Lord of all beings. Him do I serve, and Him alone do I beseech for help.
Study the Quran diligently, and do not depend on my opinion. Allah is Guide, Friend to the believers.

Peace. )

[KDC501]

You call the signs from the Quran 'nonsensical discourse'? I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant.
I find study of the Quran to be relaxing actually.

Your discourse is nonsensical not God?s Signs. Don't twist my words when you know full well what I am saying.

An answer was given, with proof to support it. You choose to not accept it.

One reason the initials are there is to lead those who disbelieve astray.

Wow. So God puts signs to lead people astray. >D Good Answer . So does this dark lord whom you serve also puts people in hell for seeking his signs???

The disbelievers ascribe Gematria - Jewish mystic teachings of satans - to them. Do you say this is false? If you cannot say it is false, why are you following satanic teachings?

Proof is given they uphold teachings of Jewish Mystics in their own Quran translations, reciting their source "'Studies in Jewish Mysticism' (page 88, 1982)". Do you deny this? Do you have proof this is false? If you cannot deny this, why do you uphold teachings of Jewish Mystics that Allah did not reveal?

Rashad Khalifa in his translation admits upholding these teachings on page 636, Appendix 1. Rashad Khalifa gives the 'Gematrical Value on the Arabic Alphabet' on page 617, Table 7. He even admits they are teachings from the Hebrew and Greeks - stating it is 'a universal system'. Do you deny this is his teaching? If you do not, why do you uphold teachings of Kabbalist satans that Allah did not reveal?

Quote from Appendix 1 http//www.submission.org/math-ap1.html
? When the Quran was revealed, 14 centuries ago, the numbers known today did not exist. A universal system was used where the letters of the Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek alphabets were used as numerals. The number assigned to each letter is its "Gematrical Value." The numerical values of the Arabic alphabet are shown in Table 7.?

Why are you arguing about facts? Arabic Letters back then were used as numbers as well.

Also the code 19 was never part of Jewish Mystics. Where is my proof ? Answer this question; Can you give me one person prior to Dr.Rashad Khalifa that said ?That the code 19 exists in the Quran? ???? Bring your proof or stop bringing up futile discussion. In addition where have you gotten this kabbalah theory? The people who follow kabbalah don?t believe in the Code 19 neither did they acknowledge that a code exists. Where is your proof that this is otherwise???

As I said before your discourse is nonsensical and not carefully thought out. Also up till now you still haven't given me a proper answer in regards to the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Suras. Your last answer was that 'it was meant to lead people astray' has no Quranic proof whatsoever. Where has God said in the Quran that his signs are meant to lead people astray? Who is this cold-hearted dark lord that you serve?

239 Those who do not appreciate and deny Our signs, they are the dwellers of fire, in it they will abide.

6410 As for those who reject and deny Our signs, they are the dwellers of the fire; they will abide therein. What a miserable destiny!

456 Those who have rejected Our signs, We will admit them to a fire. Every time their skins are cooked, We replace them with other skin that they may taste the retribution. God is Noble, Wise.

510 Those who reject and deny Our signs, they are the dwellers of hell.

621 Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His signs! The wicked will never succeed.

It seems to me that gibberish is you native tongue because that is all you speak.

[raginggaijin]

Your discourse is nonsensical not God?s Signs. Don't twist my words when you know full well what I am saying.
Wow. So God puts signs to lead people astray. >D Good Answer . So does this dark lord whom you serve also puts people in hell for seeking his signs???

I seek refuge in Allah from being among the ignorant.

Quote from Appendix 1 http//www.submission.org/math-ap1.html
? When the Quran was revealed, 14 centuries ago, the numbers known today did not exist. A universal system was used where the letters of the Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek alphabets were used as numerals. The number assigned to each letter is its "Gematrical Value." The numerical values of the Arabic alphabet are shown in Table 7.?

Why are you arguing about facts? Arabic Letters back then were used as numbers as well.

You should research before you rely on Code-19 Submitters sayings as 'fact'.

Numbers
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number
"Bones and other artifacts have been discovered with marks cut into them which many believe are tally marks. These tally marks may have been used for counting elapsed time, such as numbers of days, or keeping records of quantities, such as of animals.

A tallying system has no concept of place value (as in modern decimal notation), which limits its representation of large numbers. Nonetheless tallying systems are considered the first kind of abstract numeral system.
The first known system with place value was the Mesopotamian base 60 system (ca. 3400 BC) and the earliest known base 10 system dates to 3100 BC in Egypt."

I suppose you want to say that Numbers weren't invented until after the revelation? Is that your claim? Do you have proof of this if it is your claim?

The Quran uses numbers throughout the revelation - even fractions as shown in the teachings concerning Tahajjud/Vigil prayer.

Your Code-19 sect is wrong.

Also the code 19 was never part of Jewish Mystics. Where is my proof ? Answer this question

So your proof is a question.

You also didn't read the teachings Rashad and Edip used in their translations

"The first indication of this mathematical composition was in the 11th century by Rabbi Judah the Pious. In a book entitled STUDIES IN JEWISH MYSTICISM (Association for Jewish Studies, 1982, p. 91)...
Joseph Dan writes that Rabbi Judah was critical of the French and British Jews when they altered the morning prayer by adding a few words (Ibid., p. 8. Rabbi Judah pointed out that such an addition destroys the numerical structure of the prayer and renders it utterly nullified. He maintained that it is the "numerical combination," rather than the "meanings" of the words that effects the needed contact between the worshiper and God. Even the specific, nineteen-based, numerical system of the scripture was reported by Rabbi Judah

The people in France made it a custom to add the words " 'Ashrei temimei derekh ," and our Rabbi, the Pious, of blessed memory, wrote that they were completely and utterly wrong. It is all gross falsehood, because there are only nineteen times that the Holy Name is mentioned ...and similarly you find the word 'Elohim nineteen times in the pericope of Ve-'elleh shemot.... Similarly, you find that Israel is called "sons" nineteen times, and there are many other examples. All these sets of nineteen are intricately intertwined, and they contain many secrets and esoteric meanings, which are contained in more than eight large volumes. Therefore, anyone who has the fear of God in him will not listen to the words of the Frenchmen who add the verse "'Ashrei temimei derekh," and blessed are the righteous who walk in the paths of God's Torah, for according to their additions the Holy Name is mentioned twenty times...and this is a great mistake. "

This is all found on the Code-19 Submitter website
http//www.submission.org/miracle/history.html

Can you give me one person prior to Dr.Rashad Khalifa that said ?That the code 19 exists in the Quran?????

Why would I do that when Rashad Khalifa is striving to bring teachings of the ancients - in this case the teachings of Jewish mysticism - to the Quran. Proof is given above.

Bring your proof or stop bringing up futile discussion. In addition where have you gotten this kabbalah theory? The people who follow kabbalah don?t believe in the Code 19 neither did they acknowledge that a code exists. Where is your proof that this is otherwise???

The Quran contains an explanation for all things. It discusses where the corruptions in religion came from. Examples are given above, which you ignored.

Kabbalists teaches Gematria - numerical divination.
Gematria are teachings of Rashad Khalifa.
Rashad Khalifa teaches Kabbalist mysticism of numerical divination Gematria. He even used his Gematria to 'prophecy' the 'End of the World'. (Link is given above.)

You didn't look at the proofs in the Rashad Khalifa and Edip Yuksel translations. They admit they take their teachings from Jewish mysticism, labeling it 'The original Bible Code'.

As I said before your discourse is nonsensical and not carefully thought out.

So you believe.
I'm not here to guide anyone. What is shown will be available for those seeking information on Code 19 and where its teachings stem from. All this will be starting points for further research for those striving to be (wo)men of understanding, as well as points to refute the teachings of Code-19 Submitters and their leading satans Nasi and Jinn who seek to lead astray from the righteous path.

Everything that has taken place has occurred according to Allah's will. It is between each person and Allah now.

Also up till now you still haven't given me a proper answer in regards to the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Suras. Your last answer was that 'it was meant to lead people astray' has no Quranic proof whatsoever. Where has God said in the Quran that his signs are meant to lead people astray? Who is this cold-hearted dark lord that you serve?

Allah makes it clear The ayats (signs) that are unclear will be used by those with a sickness in their heart to seek interpretation.

"It is He who sent down upon thee the Book, wherein are signs (ayatun) clear that are the Essence of the Book, and others ambiguous. As for those in whose hearts is swerving, they follow the ambiguous part, desiring dissension, and desiring its interpretation; and none knows its interpretation, save only God. And those firmly rooted in knowledge say, 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord'; yet none remembers, but men possessed of minds." Surah 37

You yourself have asked numerous times what the interpretation of the initials are. Do you deny it?

Can you show me any teaching in the Quran that authorizes the use of Kabbalist Gematria? Yes or no. If yes, bring your proof.
If you cannot show me authorization for these satanic teachings, why do you seek interpretation of these initials when the clear ayats (signs) - the verses in the Quran - contain all the guidance and explanation you need on attaining a good standing with Allah?

Does Allah lead those who disbelieve astray? Yes or no.

If you say 'No', where is your proof of this claim?
If you say 'Yes', then why do you call our Creator, Allah, Seer, All Mighty a 'dark lord'? Why do you mock Allah? Do you even understand the danger you are placing yourself in?

"How is it with you, that you are two parties touching the hypocrites, and God has overthrown them for what they earned? What, do you desire to guide him whom God has led astray? Whom God leads astray, thou wilt not find for him a way." Surah 488

"wavering all the time -- not to these, not to those; and whom God leads astray, thou wilt not find for him a way." Surah 4143

"Whomsoever God desires to guide, He expands his breast to Islam; whomsoever He desires to lead astray, He makes his breast narrow, tight, as if he were climbing to heaven. So God lays abomination upon those who believe not." Surah 6125

"Of camels two, of oxen two. Say 'Is it the two males He has forbidden or the two females? Or what the wombs of the two females contain? Or were you witnesses when God charged you with this? Then who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, in order that he may lead mankind astray without any knowledge? Surely God guides not the people of the evildoers.'" Surah 6144

"Whomsoever God leads astray, no guide he has; He leaves them in their insolence blindly wandering." Surah 7186

These are only a smattering of proofs from the Quran that show Allah leads astray those who disbelieve.

It seems to me that gibberish is you native tongue because that is all you speak.

You cannot refute, so you attack. You are welcome to disagree, but don't expect anyone to believe you when you cannot bring proof to support why you believe what you believe.
And you mock Allah in doing so, as proven by your words within this response. I will not take part in any further discussion, increasing you in such inordinate behavior. Your uttering of such calumnies as you speak now about the All Mighty only increases me in fear of our Creator and His retribution that will fall on those who exceed the limits. I will not take part in this behavior, and will turn to Allah for guidance and protection. I seek refuge in Allah from the whispers of accursed satans.

"So We have appointed to every Prophet an enemy -- satans of nasi and jinn, revealing tawdry speech to each other, all as a delusion; yet, had thy Lord willed, they would never have done it. So leave them to their forging," Surah 6112

I leave you now to what you and your sect are forging. This conversation between you and I is over.

Peace.

[unknownuser]

The question still stands What is the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed Suras? You (nor anyone else ) haven't shown what is there meaning and purpose in the Quran.

Obviously there are 29 has nothing to do with your auspicious or "lucky" rolling the dice code.

It's simple really; show us this code, how many total Ha?

201 Ta Ha

191 Which is correct using code?

Ain,Ha,Kaaf,Sad,Ya
Ain,Ha,Kaaf,Ya,Sad
Ain,Ha,Sad,Kaaf,Ya
Ain,Ha,Sad,Ya,Kaaf
Ain,Ha,Ya,Kaaf,Sad
Ain,Ha,Ya,Sad,Kaaf
Ain,Kaaf,Ha,Sad,Ya
Ain,Kaaf,Ha,Ya,Sad
Ain,Kaaf,Sad,Ha,Ya
Ain,Kaaf,Sad,Ya,Ha
Ain,Kaaf,Ya,Ha,Sad
Ain,Kaaf,Ya,Sad,Ha
Ain,Sad,Ha,Kaaf,Ya
Ain,Sad,Ha,Ya,Kaaf
Ain,Sad,Kaaf,Ha,Ya
Ain,Sad,Kaaf,Ya,Ha
Ain,Sad,Ya,Ha,Kaaf
Ain,Sad,Ya,Kaaf,Ha
Ain,Ya,Ha,Kaaf,Sad
Ain,Ya,Ha,Sad,Kaaf
Ain,Ya,Kaaf,Ha,Sad
Ain,Ya,Kaaf,Sad,Ha
Ain,Ya,Sad,Ha,Kaaf
Ain,Ya,Sad,Kaaf,Ha
Ha,Ain,Kaaf,Sad,Ya
Ha,Ain,Kaaf,Ya,Sad
Ha,Ain,Sad,Kaaf,Ya
Ha,Ain,Sad,Ya,Kaaf
Ha,Ain,Ya,Kaaf,Sad
Ha,Ain,Ya,Sad,Kaaf
Ha,Kaaf,Ain,Sad,Ya
Ha,Kaaf,Ain,Ya,Sad
Ha,Kaaf,Sad,Ain,Ya
Ha,Kaaf,Sad,Ya,Ain
Ha,Kaaf,Ya,Ain,Sad
Ha,Kaaf,Ya,Sad,Ain
Ha,Sad,Ain,Kaaf,Ya
Ha,Sad,Ain,Ya,Kaaf
Ha,Sad,Kaaf,Ain,Ya
Ha,Sad,Kaaf,Ya,Ain
Ha,Sad,Ya,Ain,Kaaf
Ha,Sad,Ya,Kaaf,Ain
Ha,Ya,Ain,Kaaf,Sad
Ha,Ya,Ain,Sad,Kaaf
Ha,Ya,Kaaf,Ain,Sad
Ha,Ya,Kaaf,Sad,Ain
Ha,Ya,Sad,Ain,Kaaf
Ha,Ya,Sad,Kaaf,Ain
Kaaf,Ain,Ha,Sad,Ya
Kaaf,Ain,Ha,Ya,Sad
Kaaf,Ain,Sad,Ha,Ya
Kaaf,Ain,Sad,Ya,Ha
Kaaf,Ain,Ya,Ha,Sad
Kaaf,Ain,Ya,Sad,Ha
Kaaf,Ha,Ain,Sad,Ya
Kaaf,Ha,Ain,Ya,Sad
Kaaf,Ha,Sad,Ain,Ya
Kaaf,Ha,Sad,Ya,Ain
Kaaf,Ha,Ya,Ain,Sad
Kaaf,Ha,Ya,Sad,Ain
Kaaf,Sad,Ain,Ha,Ya
Kaaf,Sad,Ain,Ya,Ha
Kaaf,Sad,Ha,Ain,Ya
Kaaf,Sad,Ha,Ya,Ain
Kaaf,Sad,Ya,Ain,Ha
Kaaf,Sad,Ya,Ha,Ain
Kaaf,Ya,Ain,Ha,Sad
Kaaf,Ya,Ain,Sad,Ha
Kaaf,Ya,Ha,Ain,Sad
Kaaf,Ya,Ha,Sad,Ain
Kaaf,Ya,Sad,Ain,Ha
Kaaf,Ya,Sad,Ha,Ain
Sad,Ain,Ha,Kaaf,Ya
Sad,Ain,Ha,Ya,Kaaf
Sad,Ain,Kaaf,Ha,Ya
Sad,Ain,Kaaf,Ya,Ha
Sad,Ain,Ya,Ha,Kaaf
Sad,Ain,Ya,Kaaf,Ha
Sad,Ha,Ain,Kaaf,Ya
Sad,Ha,Ain,Ya,Kaaf
Sad,Ha,Kaaf,Ain,Ya
Sad,Ha,Kaaf,Ya,Ain
Sad,Ha,Ya,Ain,Kaaf
Sad,Ha,Ya,Kaaf,Ain
Sad,Kaaf,Ain,Ha,Ya
Sad,Kaaf,Ain,Ya,Ha
Sad,Kaaf,Ha,Ain,Ya
Sad,Kaaf,Ha,Ya,Ain
Sad,Kaaf,Ya,Ain,Ha
Sad,Kaaf,Ya,Ha,Ain
Sad,Ya,Ain,Ha,Kaaf
Sad,Ya,Ain,Kaaf,Ha
Sad,Ya,Ha,Ain,Kaaf
Sad,Ya,Ha,Kaaf,Ain
Sad,Ya,Kaaf,Ain,Ha
Sad,Ya,Kaaf,Ha,Ain
Ya,Ain,Ha,Kaaf,Sad
Ya,Ain,Ha,Sad,Kaaf
Ya,Ain,Kaaf,Ha,Sad
Ya,Ain,Kaaf,Sad,Ha
Ya,Ain,Sad,Ha,Kaaf
Ya,Ain,Sad,Kaaf,Ha
Ya,Ha,Ain,Kaaf,Sad
Ya,Ha,Ain,Sad,Kaaf
Ya,Ha,Kaaf,Ain,Sad
Ya,Ha,Kaaf,Sad,Ain
Ya,Ha,Sad,Ain,Kaaf
Ya,Ha,Sad,Kaaf,Ain
Ya,Kaaf,Ain,Ha,Sad
Ya,Kaaf,Ain,Sad,Ha
Ya,Kaaf,Ha,Ain,Sad
Ya,Kaaf,Ha,Sad,Ain
Ya,Kaaf,Sad,Ain,Ha
Ya,Kaaf,Sad,Ha,Ain
Ya,Sad,Ain,Ha,Kaaf
Ya,Sad,Ain,Kaaf,Ha
Ya,Sad,Ha,Ain,Kaaf
Ya,Sad,Ha,Kaaf,Ain
Ya,Sad,Kaaf,Ain,Ha
Ya,Sad,Kaaf,Ha,Ain

Reminds me of the Pythagorean brotherhood who killed the guy for revealing square root of 2 although disrespectful to associate them with today's clueless nineteen obsessed since the ancients really knew their math.

Everything is number!

http//www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/pyth3.htm

Peace

[truthseeker171]

Salaam Kevin

In your own words tell me what qualifies a person to be a Messenger of God.

480 - Whoever obeys the messenger is obeying God. As for those who turn away, we did not send you as their guardian.

5725 - We sent our messengers supported by clear proofs and we sent down to them the scripture and the law, that the people may uphold justice.

619 - He has sent His messenger with the guidance and the true religion, and will make it dominate all religions, in spite of the idol worshipers.

From these verses one can conclude following

A human-messenger (-rasool-) from God has to be obeyed as God has to be obeyed - this means that a messenger brings an inspired message from God.
That inspired message is to be obeyed as God has to be obeyed, as a contrast to personal words or findings of a person.
The message of a -rasool- always contains a sharia guidance, the law, the true religion.

It is a fact that after Mohammad no person was on earth, that gave an inspired book containing the law, the true religion, truly in the name of God.
As said before possible discoveries about the Koran do not make a person a messenger. The possible discovery still belongs to the signs that the last true messenger brought - the Koran.

Personally I see code 19 only related to the initialed chapters.
That seems to be compatible with the literal wording of verse 7430 - over her is nineteen. This might indicate that code 19 has only relevance to the initialed chapters. Over the initialed chapter the initials are found. Not over the Koran.
This approach could make the discussion about removing koranic verses redundant.

In former discussions about code 19, the subject -kitab marqum- mentioned in verses 839 and 8320 has been dealt with extensively,
based on the assumption that the wording -kitab marqum- relates to the Koran.
This assumption seems to be incorrect, since chapter 83 mentions two different kind of -kitab marqum-.
One kind is for the wicked - then the book is in -sidjin-.
One kind is for the righteous - then the book is in -illiyoon-.
So -kitab marqum- relates to a personal record of the deeds, concerning the day of judgement.

223 - If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.

1038 - If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

1113 - If they say, "He fabricated," tell them, "Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

These 3 verses, which are the ones in the Koran that have the subject of challenging -to produce a -sura- like this-, are in 3 different chapters that are initialed.
So this can support the approach that verse 7430 -over her is nineteen- is related only to the initialed chapters.
There is a probability of about 1 out of 64 that these 3 similar verses in 3 different chapters are each in an initialed chapter, since 29 of the 114 chapters are initialed.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[KDC501]

Mr Raging,

You didn?t answer my question. I asked you ?Can you give me one person prior to Dr.Rashad Khalifa that said ?That the code 19 exists in the Quran?? Also Dr. Rashad Khalifa?s example on ?The first indication of this mathematical composition was in the 11th century by Rabbi Judah the Pious? doesn?t prove that Jews believe in the code 19 in there scriptures but rather that there prayers had a formula involving the number 19.

"The first indication of this mathematical composition was in the 11th century by Rabbi Judah the Pious. In a book entitled STUDIES IN JEWISH MYSTICISM (Association for Jewish Studies, 1982, p. 91)...
Joseph Dan writes that Rabbi Judah was critical of the French and British Jews when they altered the morning prayer by adding a few words (Ibid., p. 8. Rabbi Judah pointed out that such an addition destroys the numerical structure of the prayer and renders it utterly nullified. He maintained that it is the "numerical combination," rather than the "meanings" of the words that effects the needed contact between the worshiper and God. Even the specific, nineteen-based, numerical system of the scripture was reported by Rabbi Judah

The people in France made it a custom to add the words " 'Ashrei temimei derekh ," and our Rabbi, the Pious, of blessed memory, wrote that they were completely and utterly wrong. It is all gross falsehood, because there are only nineteen times that the Holy Name is mentioned ...and similarly you find the word 'Elohim nineteen times in the pericope of Ve-'elleh shemot.... Similarly, you find that Israel is called "sons" nineteen times, and there are many other examples. All these sets of nineteen are intricately intertwined, and they contain many secrets and esoteric meanings, which are contained in more than eight large volumes. Therefore, anyone who has the fear of God in him will not listen to the words of the Frenchmen who add the verse "'Ashrei temimei derekh," and blessed are the righteous who walk in the paths of God's Torah, for according to their additions the Holy Name is mentioned twenty times...and this is a great mistake. "

Where do you see Rabbi Judah talking about the code 19 in there own scriptures? Isn't he talking about prayers?

The Jews don?t believe in the Quran and the Kabbalist don?t believe in the code 19 either so please enlighten me on what sort of drivel you?re talking about. In addition you still haven?t given me a good answer in regards to the meaning of the auspicious letters in the 29 initialed suras which the code 19 coincidentally fits perfectly in all 29 initialed Sura. I can?t see how someone could believe that God decided to put pitfalls in his own ayats for those who sincerely seek his signs. What sort of God are you serving???

[KDC501]

Obviously there are 29 has nothing to do with your auspicious or "lucky" rolling the dice code.

It's simple really; show us this code, how many total Ha?

201 Ta Ha

191 Which is correct using code?

Ain,Ha,Kaaf,Sad,Ya
Ain,Ha,Kaaf,Ya,Sad
Ain,Ha,Sad,Kaaf,Ya
Ain,Ha,Sad,Ya,Kaaf
Ain,Ha,Ya,Kaaf,Sad
Ain,Ha,Ya,Sad,Kaaf
Ain,Kaaf,Ha,Sad,Ya
Ain,Kaaf,Ha,Ya,Sad
Ain,Kaaf,Sad,Ha,Ya
Ain,Kaaf,Sad,Ya,Ha
Ain,Kaaf,Ya,Ha,Sad
Ain,Kaaf,Ya,Sad,Ha
Ain,Sad,Ha,Kaaf,Ya
Ain,Sad,Ha,Ya,Kaaf
Ain,Sad,Kaaf,Ha,Ya
Ain,Sad,Kaaf,Ya,Ha
Ain,Sad,Ya,Ha,Kaaf
Ain,Sad,Ya,Kaaf,Ha
Ain,Ya,Ha,Kaaf,Sad
Ain,Ya,Ha,Sad,Kaaf
Ain,Ya,Kaaf,Ha,Sad
Ain,Ya,Kaaf,Sad,Ha
Ain,Ya,Sad,Ha,Kaaf
Ain,Ya,Sad,Kaaf,Ha
Ha,Ain,Kaaf,Sad,Ya
Ha,Ain,Kaaf,Ya,Sad
Ha,Ain,Sad,Kaaf,Ya
Ha,Ain,Sad,Ya,Kaaf
Ha,Ain,Ya,Kaaf,Sad
Ha,Ain,Ya,Sad,Kaaf
Ha,Kaaf,Ain,Sad,Ya
Ha,Kaaf,Ain,Ya,Sad
Ha,Kaaf,Sad,Ain,Ya
Ha,Kaaf,Sad,Ya,Ain
Ha,Kaaf,Ya,Ain,Sad
Ha,Kaaf,Ya,Sad,Ain
Ha,Sad,Ain,Kaaf,Ya
Ha,Sad,Ain,Ya,Kaaf
Ha,Sad,Kaaf,Ain,Ya
Ha,Sad,Kaaf,Ya,Ain
Ha,Sad,Ya,Ain,Kaaf
Ha,Sad,Ya,Kaaf,Ain
Ha,Ya,Ain,Kaaf,Sad
Ha,Ya,Ain,Sad,Kaaf
Ha,Ya,Kaaf,Ain,Sad
Ha,Ya,Kaaf,Sad,Ain
Ha,Ya,Sad,Ain,Kaaf
Ha,Ya,Sad,Kaaf,Ain
Kaaf,Ain,Ha,Sad,Ya
Kaaf,Ain,Ha,Ya,Sad
Kaaf,Ain,Sad,Ha,Ya
Kaaf,Ain,Sad,Ya,Ha
Kaaf,Ain,Ya,Ha,Sad
Kaaf,Ain,Ya,Sad,Ha
Kaaf,Ha,Ain,Sad,Ya
Kaaf,Ha,Ain,Ya,Sad
Kaaf,Ha,Sad,Ain,Ya
Kaaf,Ha,Sad,Ya,Ain
Kaaf,Ha,Ya,Ain,Sad
Kaaf,Ha,Ya,Sad,Ain
Kaaf,Sad,Ain,Ha,Ya
Kaaf,Sad,Ain,Ya,Ha
Kaaf,Sad,Ha,Ain,Ya
Kaaf,Sad,Ha,Ya,Ain
Kaaf,Sad,Ya,Ain,Ha
Kaaf,Sad,Ya,Ha,Ain
Kaaf,Ya,Ain,Ha,Sad
Kaaf,Ya,Ain,Sad,Ha
Kaaf,Ya,Ha,Ain,Sad
Kaaf,Ya,Ha,Sad,Ain
Kaaf,Ya,Sad,Ain,Ha
Kaaf,Ya,Sad,Ha,Ain
Sad,Ain,Ha,Kaaf,Ya
Sad,Ain,Ha,Ya,Kaaf
Sad,Ain,Kaaf,Ha,Ya
Sad,Ain,Kaaf,Ya,Ha
Sad,Ain,Ya,Ha,Kaaf
Sad,Ain,Ya,Kaaf,Ha
Sad,Ha,Ain,Kaaf,Ya
Sad,Ha,Ain,Ya,Kaaf
Sad,Ha,Kaaf,Ain,Ya
Sad,Ha,Kaaf,Ya,Ain
Sad,Ha,Ya,Ain,Kaaf
Sad,Ha,Ya,Kaaf,Ain
Sad,Kaaf,Ain,Ha,Ya
Sad,Kaaf,Ain,Ya,Ha
Sad,Kaaf,Ha,Ain,Ya
Sad,Kaaf,Ha,Ya,Ain
Sad,Kaaf,Ya,Ain,Ha
Sad,Kaaf,Ya,Ha,Ain
Sad,Ya,Ain,Ha,Kaaf
Sad,Ya,Ain,Kaaf,Ha
Sad,Ya,Ha,Ain,Kaaf
Sad,Ya,Ha,Kaaf,Ain
Sad,Ya,Kaaf,Ain,Ha
Sad,Ya,Kaaf,Ha,Ain
Ya,Ain,Ha,Kaaf,Sad
Ya,Ain,Ha,Sad,Kaaf
Ya,Ain,Kaaf,Ha,Sad
Ya,Ain,Kaaf,Sad,Ha
Ya,Ain,Sad,Ha,Kaaf
Ya,Ain,Sad,Kaaf,Ha
Ya,Ha,Ain,Kaaf,Sad
Ya,Ha,Ain,Sad,Kaaf
Ya,Ha,Kaaf,Ain,Sad
Ya,Ha,Kaaf,Sad,Ain
Ya,Ha,Sad,Ain,Kaaf
Ya,Ha,Sad,Kaaf,Ain
Ya,Kaaf,Ain,Ha,Sad
Ya,Kaaf,Ain,Sad,Ha
Ya,Kaaf,Ha,Ain,Sad
Ya,Kaaf,Ha,Sad,Ain
Ya,Kaaf,Sad,Ain,Ha
Ya,Kaaf,Sad,Ha,Ain
Ya,Sad,Ain,Ha,Kaaf
Ya,Sad,Ain,Kaaf,Ha
Ya,Sad,Ha,Ain,Kaaf
Ya,Sad,Ha,Kaaf,Ain
Ya,Sad,Kaaf,Ain,Ha
Ya,Sad,Kaaf,Ha,Ain

Reminds me of the Pythagorean brotherhood who killed the guy for revealing square root of 2 although disrespectful to associate them with today's clueless nineteen obsessed since the ancients really knew their math.

Everything is number!

http//www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/pyth3.htm

Peace

I will like the people on this forum to examine the link below and what SEid wrote. Are you seeing any similarities????

http//www.mathmiracle.com/html/the-proof.php

SEid,
If you must bring proof bring something similar to what is being debated.

[KDC501]

Personally I see code 19 only related to the initialed chapters.

You have to be a blind man not to see the miracle of the code 19 in the 29 initialed suras. I pray that God may increase your knowledge to see the other signs in the Quran.

peace,
Kevin

[truthseeker171]

You have to be a blind man not to see the miracle of the code 19 in the 29 initialed suras. I pray that God may increase your knowledge to see the other signs in the Quran.

The Koran indicates that code 19 is related to the initialed sura's.

The literal wording of verse 7430 - over her is nineteen.
Over the initialed chapters the initials are found. Not over the Koran as a whole.

The Koran does not call itself a numerically structured book.
In former discussions about code 19, the subject -kitab marqum- mentioned in verses 839 and 8320 has been dealt with extensively,
based on the assumption that the wording -kitab marqum- relates to the Koran.
This assumption seems to be incorrect, since chapter 83 mentions two different kind of -kitab marqum-.
One kind is for the wicked - then the book is in -sidjin-.
One kind is for the righteous - then the book is in -illiyoon-.
So -kitab marqum- relates to a personal record of the deeds, concerning the day of judgement.

Following three verses seem to indicate that the sign of code 19 is only related to the intialed chapters.

223 - If you have any doubt regarding what we revealed to our servant, then produce one sura like these, and call upon your own witnesses against GOD, if you are truthful.

1038 - If they say, "He fabricated it," say, "Then produce one sura like these, and invite whomever you wish, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

1113 - If they say, "He fabricated," tell them, "Then produce ten suras like these, fabricated, and invite whomever you can, other than GOD, if you are truthful."

These 3 verses, which are the ones in the Koran that have the subject of challenging -to produce a -sura- like this-, are in 3 different chapters that are initialed.
So this can support the approach that verse 7430 -over her is nineteen- is related only to the initialed chapters.
There is a probability of about 1 out of 64 that these 3 similar verses in 3 different chapters are each in an initialed chapter, since 29 of the 114 chapters are initialed.

Other 19-related findings are not a part of code 19 as far as I am concerned. The Koran does not suggest anywhere that for instance the number of the word -Allah- in the Koran should be divisible by 19. Really no reason to think that verses should be left out of the Koran.
Taking code 19 out of the context of the initials has led to rather ad random claims of -signs-.

An interesting article might be diamond vs. glass
http//www.quran.org/code/q-zone/lessons.html

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[truthseeker171]

Red highlights above are from me.

verse 5725

1st You have interpolated Your own desires in the translation of 5725. I highlighted "down to" in your translation in red. It should be "with" instead. It makes a big difference in the MEANING of the verse. The verse says that the book is sent down with them, not sent down to them. Here, it can be the already existing books that the messenger should keep preaching, inviting the people to stop their divination, and to come back to the right path and start upholding the book again.

2nd Verse 735 clearly ADDRESSES US as the CHILDREN of Adam, and informs us that as long as CHILDREN of Adam/HUMANS, are living on this Earth, GOD, SWT, sends MESSENGERS from among ourselves, to us, if He wills.

735

O Children of Adam! If there come to you Messengers from amongst you, reciting to you, My Verses, then whosoever becomes pious and righteous, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Messengers do not bring NEW books, they just PREACH/narrate the existing ones. PROPHETS are the one that GOD, SWT, gives them books and law. And, Prophet Muhammad, pbuh, was the LAST of the prophets. See 3340 below.

Muhammad (SAW) is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of All?h and the last (end) of the Prophets]. And All?h is Ever All?Aware of everything.

Salaam dear Khalil

The Koran seems to be very clear - both prophets and messengers brought a book with them to earth. The difference is that the -rasool- brought a book that contained a -sharia-. That made Mohammad a -rasool- and a -naby- and Solomon a -naby- not a -rasool-.

2213 The people used to be one nation, then God sent the prophets as bearers of good news and as warners, and He sent down with them the book ...
waanzala maAAahumu alkitaba

5725 We have sent Our messengers with clear proofs, and We sent down with them the book and the balance ...
waanzalna maAAahumu alkitaba

From these verses one can find koranic proof that both the messengers and the prophets were sent down together with the book.
So I do not share your reading that the messenger reads from an existing book.

Verse 735 does not suggest that the messenger recites an existing book - what would be the difference with the believer who recites the book for people who do not know the book?
This verse does not suggest that after Mohammad there will be new human-messengers. It states that the believers who take heed to the signs will be safe from fear or grieve.
For this until now we have the perfect Koran with us.

The koranic definition of a messenger as a bringer of the religion of truth and as a bringer of the law ? verses 619 and 5725, connects perfectly to verse 480, which states that the messenger has to be obeyed in the way that God has to be obeyed - following the sharia of the book sent down with the messenger.
This wording is not used regarding a prophet.

4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
4154 Indeed, they are in doubt about meeting their Lord; but He is Encompassing over all things.

According to verse 4153 the people will receive other forms of guidance - a new human-messenger is not mentioned in the Koran.
The existence of angelic messengers makes clear why verse 3340 states that Mohammad is the last prophet, not the last messenger.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

[unknownuser]

I will like the people on this forum to examine the link below and what SEid wrote. Are you seeing any similarities????

http//www.mathmiracle.com/html/the-proof.php

SEid,
If you must bring proof bring something similar to what is being debated.

What more proof do you want then what was already posted, that nineteen is for dumb apes...

w ch v gv
11 2 65 10020045 qiradatan apes
17 5 60 13010020045 al-qiradata the apes
10 7 166 10020045 qiradatan apes

38 = 19 x 2!

w ch v gv
11 2 65 10020045 = 19 x ?!

w ch v gv
17 5 60 13010020045
10 7 166 10020045 = 19 x ?!

w ch v gv
11 2 65 10020045
17 5 60 13010020045
10 7 166 10020045 = 19 x ?!

ape verification http//www.markknowsnothing.com/cgi-bin/calculator.php

also from that stupid site for dumb apes, # of 'ha' in the chapters which it's initialed...

chapter 19 175 175 / 19 = 9.21052632
chapter 20 251 251 / 19 = 13.2105263
total 426 / 19 = 22.4210526

ch 68 Noon 132 / 19 = 6.94736842 not multiple! They cheated by missspelling, no longer initialed.
ch 47 not initialed # of "Q" 38 (19x2) means nothing, there are 100+ chapters "Q" is not multiple.

The questions for you and the rest is very simple, why you remove 2 verses?

There is no code, not in initialed chapters or in Qur'an, it's only your imagination. Otherwise if you like meaningless multiples, as already shown one can find billions using ape or Edip GV = 70 4 10 2 = 19 x 37058 (37+0+58 = 19 x 5)

100 70 4 10 2 100 = 19 x 5300215900
101 70 4 10 2 101 = 19 x 5352847479
...
998 70 4 10 2 998 = 19 x 52563373842
999 70 4 10 2 999 = 19 x 52616005421

The Koran indicates that code 19 is related to the initialed sura's.

The literal wording of verse 7430 - over her is nineteen.
Over the initialed chapters the initials are found. Not over the Koran as a whole.

in context, explain what it refers to?

7428-31
Not it lets remain
And not it leaves scorching the human
Over it nineteen
And not We have made keepers the fire only malikatan
And not We have made their count only fit'natan for those kafar

Those who believe in non-existent code; have not looked into it, are inept at basic math/logic, or are completely lost.

[KDC501]

Again SEid if you're going to bring proof bring something similar to what is being discussed.

For example,

In sura 19 the letters K.H'.Y.A'.S' (sura 191) each occurs 137, 175, 343 , 117, 26, in sura 19 respectively. The sum of these numbers is 798 = 19x42.

Or other Sura examples like

Sura 2 ALM A -4502 L- 3202 M-2195 =9899 (19x521)

Or Sura 3 ALM

A- 252 L- 1892 M-1249 = 5662 (19x29

Or Sura 29

A-774 L-554 M344 = 1672 (19x8

Or Sura 30

A-544 L-393 M317 = 1254 (19x66)

Or Suras 7, 19 and 38 (Saad)
97, 26 , 29 = 152 (19x

These are just some of the signs involving the number 19.
http//www.mathmiracle.com/html/the-proof.php

So far you have not brought anything close to it. Construct a book or find a book with consistencies like these and then you have proof that this is nonsense and can be found (or created) by anyone

1788 Say, "If all the humans and the Jinn were to gather to bring a Quran like this, they could not come with its like, even if they were helping one another."

[KDC501]

Truthseeker171,

As much as I agree with you in the regards to the true meaning of the mysterious letters in the 29 initialed suras, the Quran does not say ?point blank? in any of its ayats that 19 is related to 29 initialed Suras. It says that the number 19 is one of Gods Signs in his book.

Sura 74 in my view is a prophetic chapter in the Quran. It gives us a layout in regards the true purpose of the number 19 and its relation to the Quran.

Note The Quran was revealed in 13 B.H. (Before Hijrah). This makes the number of years from the revelation of the Quran to the revelation of its miracle 1393 + 13 = 1406 = 19x74. The code 19 was discovered in 1974 by Dr. Rashad Khalifa

7430 On it is nineteen.*
7431 We have made the guardians of the fire to be angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, to convince those who were given the book, to strengthen the acknowledgment of those who have acknowledged, so that those who have
been given the book and those who acknowledge do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the ingrates would say, "What did God mean by this example?" Thus God misguides whoever/whomever He wishes, and He guides whoever/whomever He wishes. None knows your Lord's soldiers except Him. It is but a reminder for people.
7432 No, by the moon.*
7433 By the night when it passes.
7434 By the morning when it shines.
7435 It is one of the great ones.
7436 A warning to people.
7437 For any among you who wishes to
progress or regress.

These verses are allegorical verses. From the verses one can interpret that the number 19 will , ? convince those who were given the book, to strengthen the acknowledgment of those who have acknowledged, so that those who have been given the book and those who acknowledge do not have doubt?

So the number 19 is related to the Quran itself. The Quran did not specify how or where these signs are but it does imply that it is a great sign in the book itself. Your argument that number 19 is not related to the number of times the word ?Allah? is mentioned in the Quran is a disputable argument which leads back to the two last Meccan Verses in Sura 9 (which is originally a Medinan Sura)

There are a lot of signs (both historical and physical) to show that 9128-129 do not belong in the Quran.

http//www.submission.org/tampering.html

One of which I believe is implied in Sura 74

741 O you hidden one.* (the code 19)
742 Stand and warn.
743 Your Lord glorify.
744 Your garments purify.* What does this metaphorical verse mean???? My interpretation is (Sura 9128 -129)

In my view God knew before hand that people would try to tamper with Sura 9 which is why he took to all the necessary steps to ensure that his book was preserved. In conclusion , I'll just like to say that anyone can add verses to an ordinary book. However a coded book is another story. In a coded book (especially one designed by the Creator) errors are as bright as day.

837 No, the record of the wicked is in Sijjeen.
838 Do you know what Sijjeen is?
839 A numbered record.*
8310 Woes on that day to the deniers.
8311 Those who denied the day of recompense.*
8312 None will deny it except every transgressor who knows no bounds.
8313 When Our signs are recited to him, he says "Tales of the ancients!"
8314 No, a covering has been placed on their hearts for what they have earned.
8315 No, they will be blocked from their Lord on that day.
8316 Then they will be entered into the hell.
8317 Then it will be said, "This is what you used to deny!"
8318 No, the record of the pious is in Elliyeen.
8319 Do you know what Elliyeen is?
8320 A numbered record.
8321 To be witnessed by those brought near.

Peace,
Kevin.

[unknownuser]

Again SEid if you're going to bring proof bring something similar to what is being discussed.

For example,

In sura 19 the letters K.H'.Y.A'.S' (sura 191) each occurs 137, 175, 343 , 117, 26, in sura 19 respectively. The sum of these numbers is 798 = 19x42.

Already showed example with "ha" and how they cheat manipulate Noon, and also include Bismillah to fool people.

They are not multiple individually and the script manipulated; e.g.

http//free-minds.org/quran/A/19

? not multiple and now Bismillah included whereas for other counts it?s not!
? not multiple and freeminds has it as 120

Sura 2 ALM A -4502 L- 3202 M-2195 =9899 (19x521)

Or Sura 3 ALM

A- 252 L- 1892 M-1249 = 5662 (19x29

Again, manipulated text, go to freeminds or other sites pop in browser search each letter and report back to us ...

Would you like to see code 29 as in 29 initialed chapters or 29 Saad as in SEid in chapter titled Saad?

[kgwithnob]

...Note The Quran was revealed in 13 B.H. (Before Hijrah). This makes the number of years from the revelation of the Quran to the revelation of its miracle 1393 + 13 = 1406 = 19x74. The code 19 was discovered in 1974 by Dr. Rashad Khalifa...

Highlighted above is from me.

And do not forget that, 1974 also reminds us that 19 occurs in chapter 74!

Peace,
Khalil

[KDC501]

Already showed example with "ha" and how they cheat manipulate Noon, and also include Bismillah to fool people.

They are not multiple individually and the script manipulated; e.g.

http//free-minds.org/quran/A/19

? not multiple and now Bismillah included whereas for other counts it?s not!
? not multiple and freeminds has it as 120

Again, manipulated text, go to freeminds or other sites pop in browser search each letter and report back to us ...

Would you like to see code 29 as in 29 initialed chapters or 29 Saad as in SEid in chapter titled Saad?

WOW the scripts have been manipulated. rotfl Is that all you can say. Here is a document for those who wish to see and verify the signs (of the 29 initialed Suras) that I previously posted

http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/english/index.html

Compare the Arabic texts in the reader with another Arabic Quran. Does anyone see any differences?

SEid,

Do you have any other arguments you wish to bring up or is that all your brain can muster? laugh

[unknownuser]

And do not forget that, 1974 also reminds us that 19 occurs in chapter 74!

Thus according to hadith which the nineteen infatuated are avid readers, revelation started in 610 CE.
It took 23 years so that can?t be it.

http//www.islamicfinder.org/dateConversion.php?mode=ger-hij&day=11&month=7&year=610&date_result=1
1974 - 610 = 1364 not multiple?

O? wait those are solar years; let?s try using lunar years?
(1364 solar years) / (12 lunar months) = 1405.85959 close enough

Are you going to use lunar years for all your nineteen hunting?

WOW the scripts have been manipulated. rotfl Is that all you can say.
Compare the Arabic texts in the reader with another Arabic Quran. Does anyone see any differences?

Did you verify the counts for yourself on other sites -- you know that site is the worst in translation and manipulation?
Simply pop each letter in your browser do a search on different chapters, it's easy takes seconds for each letter...

http//free-minds.org/quran/A/2
http//free-minds.org/quran/A/19

SEid,

Do you have any other arguments you wish to bring up or is that all your brain can muster? laugh

Sure have Trillions! More proof (apes despised) GV = 1002004400 6006011050 ?

GV Total - 1425 = 19 x 75
Sequence number, Word Size - 1 4 2 5 = 19 x 75
Sequence number, Letter number, Word Size - 1 1234 42 56789 5 = 19 x 59128556205
Sequence number, Cumulative GV, Word GV - 1 704 704 2 1425 721 = 19 x 8972127443459
Word GV Series, Sequence number - 1002004400 1 6006011050 2 = 19 x 52737073692634742658
Sequence number, Cumulative number letters, Cumulative GV - 1 4 704 2 9 1425 = 19 x 773910075
Sequence number, First&Last GV Values, Cumulative GV - 1 500 704 2 650 1425 = 19 x 7898443500075
Sequence number, Cumulative number letters, Letter number - 1 4 1234 2 9 56789 = 19 x 74333839831
Sequence number, Cumulative number letters, First&Last GV Values - 1 4 500 2 9 650 = 19 x 763173500
Individual GV, letter number - 1001 2002 43 4004 6005 606 17 108 509 = 19 x 52694749652655792424 3005711
Word Size, Word GV, Word GV Series - 4 704 1002004400 5 721 6006011050 = 19 x 24758422107579248505 29479500

[Patanahi]

Dear Kevin, I have assumed from your posts that you are convinced to remove the 2 verses 9128 and 9129 because that doesn't fit your calculation. Going by that, what should be the correct number of total ayats in Quran? If we take a multiple of 350 (19 x 350=6,650 verses) or if we take another multiple of 351 (19 x 351= 6,669 verses). Apparently, it looks like that neither of the multiples would fit in with the total no. of verses in Quran, even if you delete or add back the 2 verses. Then, how do we conclude about the total no of verses in Quran? Do we need to suggest adding some to fit in your calculation or should we look out for deleting more verses to make these equal to the multiple of 19?

[KDC501]

SEid,
Since it is you who have brought up the accusation that the count on the letters have been manipulated please enlighten me in which verses the count has been manipulated.

For example, Here is Sura 19

191 K.H'.Y.A'.S' K - 137 H- 175 Y-343 A- 117 S- 26 = 798 = 19x42.

HERE is the reader to help you count the letters http//www.submission.org/quran/reader/arabic/v-19.htm ( I suggest you draw up a table as well.)

Here is a link to an Arabic Quran http//quran.com/19 ( So that you can see that nothing has been manipulated)

In case you don't know the Arabic Alphabet here is the link - http//www.cafe-syria.com/Alphabet.htm

If your next post doesn't bring back any clear evidence then you are a liar.